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(News4Jax)   Paid summer vacations, other stupid myths about public school teachers. You'll be glad you skipped that career in education   ( news4jax.com) divider line
    More: Obvious, teachers, High school, New York City, Education, Teacher, school-related activities teachers, public school teachers, United States  
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5828 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Apr 2018 at 5:50 PM (34 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

2018-04-16 06:19:33 PM  
37 votes:
I'm a teacher who is going to have to work this summer, but it's cool because I would be bored to death hanging out around the house all summer and I can't afford to travel anywhere.

I know the cool kids on fark are into teacher bashing and all that, but most of us in the profession are out there giving it our best shot everyday.  We care about your kids and want to keep them safe.  I know I want the best for the kids I teach and interact with daily.

Today I made muffins and bread with some kids who have some pretty serious disabilities.  That might not sound like much until you factor in everything involved in a complex task such as baking.

We start with hand-washing and why we wash our hands.  I talk about food-borne illnesses and how we can prevent them.  We learn about cross-contamination and how to prevent it.  We learn the first rule of oven safety:  the stove and oven must always be turned off when you're done cooking, 100% of the time.

I teach with an eye toward making these kids competent cooks for both home and work.  I am not a chef by any means but people really like my cooking.  I know a lot of comfort food dishes and some southern dishes.  I make a nice loaf of bread.  I'm teaching them what I know how to make right now but I'm planning on taking more cooking classes to improve my program.   These guys are middle school and I hope to send them to high school ready for a culinary arts program.

My students learn to use a sharp knife safely.  They learn about cross-contamination.  They can tell you what gluten is and how it holds the bread together.  They can tell you all about yeast.  They are learning how to use a Kitchenaide professional mixer to knead dough and mix cookie batter.

On Muffin Monday, we make several dozen muffins for the teacher's lounge that get scarfed up quick.  They're that good.  Today we also made two loaves of bread that are going to be made into French toast.

We read recipes.  We use measuring spoons and cups accurately.  We're working on cracking eggs with only an occasional mess.

We also read about Perseus and the Medusa, counted money, and learned a little bit of Korean.

They pay me to be there, but they don't pay me to care.  I give that as a gift to the kids and the community.   All I really ask for is a decent salary and benefits.  It's also cool when we get the support we need from our communities, both monetary and morale.  Respect, that would be nice, too.
2018-04-16 06:33:31 PM  
29 votes:

Rent Party: Bring up things like standardized quality metrics for merit pay and they lose their farkin' minds.


Because students aren't all the same.  Schools aren't all the same.  The best teacher in town might choose to work in the worst school in town so they can feel like they're making a difference in the world and they really MIGHT be making the biggest difference.  Another teacher might be in a school filled with high-income kids who get nothing but a ton of one-on-one time with their parents from day one and have had au pairs and nannies and everything else their whole life.  That teacher might not have as big of an impact, but because testing shows that that school is better, that teacher gets paid more.  Yes, they could measure student progress, but that's also proven to be quite difficult to get right.  Maybe you have a group of kids come in where the parents of those students are all in denial that their kid is the problem and so the whole class suffers and you simply can't teach as much that year so you get less money in spite of actually trying harder.

If you can come up with a sure-fire scientific way of doing compensation based on performance that really works for teaching, I'd love to hear it.
2018-04-16 04:37:37 PM  
26 votes:

TommyDeuce: I thought they did it for the love of the kids.  How can we justify paying something to do what they love?

/So not serious


Sadly I'm sure there are plenty in the GOP who feel this exact way.
2018-04-16 05:55:35 PM  
24 votes:
I left a career in business to go into education 3 years ago.  I damned sure didn't do it for the money.  I did it because I figured out that nothing and no one was going to change what is wrong in the deep south from the OUTSIDE.  So I went and got a MAT and became a teacher, now that my kids are out of school, so that I can help develop critical thinking skills and expose young people to the wider world through literature.  I don't regret it most days, but then again I live in a small town with a relatively small cost of living and a relatively high salary schedule for Arkansas.  I can't imagine trying to make a living while raising kids or dealing with the expense of living in a large city.
2018-04-16 06:46:37 PM  
18 votes:

Rent Party: The problem isn't coming up with measurements, it's that regardless of what measures you come up with, teachers are going to biatch about it because *they don't want to be measured.*


You've obviously made up your mind that teachers are shiftless leeches and I doubt I'll change that view.  I disagree with your assessment because you've reduced a very complex problem to a simple solution and hand-waved all of the middle parts away.
2018-04-16 06:11:32 PM  
17 votes:
Meh, lots of people put in a lot of hours at crappy jobs for crappy pay. Teachers don't have a corner on that market. They do have a corner on whining about it though.
2018-04-16 06:50:11 PM  
11 votes:
A couple hints, subby. EVERY job is harder than it looks and EVERY job has shiatty things about it.
2018-04-16 07:27:59 PM  
10 votes:

Rent Party: Bring up things like standardized quality metrics for merit pay and they lose their farkin' minds.


The human mind is not standardized. It is not a widget. Schools are not factories. Why would you insist on applying manufacturing standards to something that is not quantifiable by its very nature?
2018-04-16 06:23:05 PM  
10 votes:

bigfire: I love trolling the MIL.  Her - Masters in early childhood education and associated student loans vs Me - two year college dropout with 0 student debt.  She's got 30+ years in and I still made 40k more than her last year with no degree.

Still blows her mind.


That is the fundamental problem with education.  Teachers are damn near unique in that they feel they should get paid according to their level of education rather than the quality of their work.  "I have a masters degree so I should get X" vs "I'm a hobo but my students regularly excel in AP coursework and score high in the SATs."

Bring up things like standardized quality metrics for merit pay and they lose their farkin' minds.
2018-04-16 08:13:47 PM  
9 votes:
Ah, so it's teacher bashing day AGAIN? Seriously. If you don't work in a school, you just have no clue. You hear what the board wants you to hear. Do you know that your Title 1 teachers are screwed out of full time hours and benefits by 15 mins. Per day? Or that you can be doing the job of someone else in the district and you are part time and they are full? Then lets talk about the kids who don't have a winter coat, or whose parents consistantly don't pack them a lunch. And you have to see that and try to deal with it? Or the fact that for many, the crappy food they get at school is the best they will get all day long? And lets talk about curriculum that is not teacher tested, but is implemented  regardless? And yeah, show a years growth for each student? Well, ya know, explain how you apply that to a kid identified as gifted..Good luck. And yes, some really excellent teachers are willing to work for peanut, but as my FIL used to say, by and large, you pay peanuts, ya get monkeys.
2018-04-16 06:42:09 PM  
9 votes:
In truth, we should do away with summer vacations and just have year-round schooling.  Still give the kids 2 week breaks in winter, spring, and summer, but the 3 month break is too long.
2018-04-16 09:11:50 PM  
8 votes:
I always ask anyone who complains about teacher's salaries, "If it's such a cushy job then why the fark aren't you doing it?"
2018-04-16 07:13:36 PM  
8 votes:

abhorrent1: Meh, lots of people put in a lot of hours at crappy jobs for crappy pay. Teachers don't have a corner on that market. They do have a corner on whining about it though.


This. A couple of my closest friends are teachers, and they tend to think they have more stress than any other profession, and NEED the extended vacation time. I wouldn't argue that they have some unique aggravations working at a public school, but they really do seem to forget the rest of us have plenty of job stress and only get a few weeks off to recoup every year. Plus, they are retiring at 55, and, well... I'm certainly not.
2018-04-16 06:35:16 PM  
8 votes:
Oh for fark's sake.

Teachers are paid on salary, not by the hour. Like everyone else, their vacation pay is deducted and then paid out during vacation time. That's how every professional is paid, no different.  Annual salary is annual salary.

One big difference : their vacation comes in a huge chunk that's about 8 times longer than anyone else's, which is conducive to picking up a 2nd job.

Also, no child care expenses, because they are home when the kids are.
2018-04-16 08:24:10 PM  
7 votes:

Huck And Molly Ziegler: I would think one of the more distressing parts of being a schoolteacher is watching your "babies" --- be they 1st-graders or high schoolers --- grow up and move along.

Or do I have that all wrong? Perhaps you're NOT supposed to be so fond of them that you'd hate to see them go (most of 'em, anyway). But, then you console yourself thinking of the next batch next year.



Actually, that is one of the coolest parts of being in education. Seeing your students move on, that is the point. When they arrive at the next level, well prepared. Better than chocolate/bacon/coffee. Even better, when they come back a few years later and remind you of the one thing you did, that they remember..

CSB..I did a read aloud to a group of 5th graders..my first year in the library, we had a chapter a week..took us all school year to finish..A few years ago, I was doing a Living History presentation to a group of 8th graders, before they had their Washington trip..I had a student recognise me..from 3 yrs ago! I was in full Civil War regalia too...she mentioned the book, about a mouse, and a boy who drew (A Nest for Celeste)..That. Is what we live for. Priceless.
2018-04-16 08:14:01 PM  
7 votes:

lando12310: Reading and math abilities are easily tested and scored (quantifiable) it is the teachers job to get them to a certain standard, how they do it is up to them.


Learning is something that is not quantifiable. Not memorization, LEARNING.There is a difference.

Kid 1 has a photographic memory. Remembers words. Does will on tests, but if you ask them about the concepts behind what they read, they have very little clue. They simply regurgitate what they have seen because while they may remember the what, they do not know the why.

Kid 2 understands the concepts and can use them to solve other problems, but has no memory for words and facts and figures. Does poorly on tests, but when asked how and why something works can show you flawlessly.

Kid 1 memorized. Kid 2 learned. Most people are on the spectrum between these two extremes, and some go beyond. Do the teachers know what they are going to get every September, especially public school teachers? Teachers cannot make a person learn, nor can they teach 30 different ways for what could be 30 different types of humans. And what about the baggage some children may bring with them to school, baggage that interferes with their absorption of the material? What do teachers do about that?

Some things taught in life cannot be tested. Schools are not factories.
2018-04-16 07:18:17 PM  
6 votes:

bigfire: pounddawg: I work for a school district so I am getting a kick.....

But really.. the kids are mostly great. Most parents and admin suck, some teachers and students do.

/Same holidays as Pounddawg Jr is awesome.

If it works for you, I'm happy for you.  I promise not to be a parent that sucks and my kids are not jackwagons.  If only I could talk the school board into not spending 75k on that new interior remodel for the school board conference room that's only 30'x18' and work on a 1-2% raise a year for you....


And there it is. The money that is pissed away and yet teacher salaries and basic supplies are held hostage.
2018-04-16 06:51:56 PM  
6 votes:
Don't teachers get to retire after 20 years, with health care and full pension for the remainder of their lives?    Shouldn't that factor into the whole 'underpayment' argument?
2018-04-16 09:38:32 PM  
5 votes:
Teachers please pick one.

A.  I get 3 months of vacation a year.
B.  Multiply your salary by 1.4 when comparing to other professions.
2018-04-16 08:06:25 PM  
5 votes:

Rent Party: teachers are going to biatch about it because *they don't want to be measured.*


In my experience, people who are good at what they do have little issue with being evaluated when 1) it results in being better compensated than their inferior coworkers and 2) when they believe the evaluation is sufficiently fair.
2018-04-16 07:44:36 PM  
5 votes:

Ignoramist: Oh for fark's sake.

Teachers are paid on salary, not by the hour. Like everyone else, their vacation pay is deducted and then paid out during vacation time. That's how every professional is paid, no different.  Annual salary is annual salary.

One big difference : their vacation comes in a huge chunk that's about 8 times longer than anyone else's, which is conducive to picking up a 2nd job.

Also, no child care expenses, because they are home when the kids are.


I can tell you that last point is 100% wrong.
2018-04-16 06:41:35 PM  
5 votes:

Explodo: Rent Party: Bring up things like standardized quality metrics for merit pay and they lose their farkin' minds.

Because students aren't all the same.  Schools aren't all the same.  The best teacher in town might choose to work in the worst school in town so they can feel like they're making a difference in the world and they really MIGHT be making the biggest difference.


If you don't have any way of measuring that, how the hell would you know if you're making a difference or not?  That is *exactly* the scenario where merit pay would be a massive benefit.

If you can come up with a sure-fire scientific way of doing compensation based on performance that really works for teaching, I'd love to hear it.

Baseline schools/districts every year and normalize the results to z-score.  Weight progress against each quartile.  You get more credit for moving the bottom of the stack than you do the top.   That's an incentive the "good" teachers to work to improve the lower performing kids, while not penalizing teachers that work with the smart ones.  And because you've normalized the curve, it's portable to any school.

The problem isn't coming up with measurements, it's that regardless of what measures you come up with, teachers are going to biatch about it because *they don't want to be measured.*
2018-04-16 06:12:55 PM  
5 votes:
My neighbor makes no bones about the fact that he got into teaching for the money and benefits (plus he enjoys it).

He was 30 back in the mid 80s and had a growing family and decided the factory job wouldn't cut it and that a teaching degree was the surest path to a good paying profession (he had credits from an earlier college stint).

He's been with a big district since day 1 and later got his masters, so he's pulling down close to 100k a year in those years he teaches summer school (time and a half / hr. based on salary).

He's well worth it by all accounts
2018-04-16 06:08:01 PM  
5 votes:
I love trolling the MIL.  Her - Masters in early childhood education and associated student loans vs Me - two year college dropout with 0 student debt.  She's got 30+ years in and I still made 40k more than her last year with no degree.

Still blows her mind.
2018-04-16 10:27:23 PM  
4 votes:

Rent Party: That is the fundamental problem with education.  Teachers are damn near unique in that they feel they should get paid according to their level of education rather than the quality of their work.  "I have a masters degree so I should get X" vs "I'm a hobo but my students regularly excel in AP coursework and score high in the SATs."


Show me a valid and reliable method of determining the quality of a teacher's work and you may have a point.  However, no such method exists, and so we have to rely on secondary factors, such as GPA, standardized test scores, etc.

Think about the best teacher you ever had; what made them so good?  Knowledge of the subject?  Excitement about the subject matter?  Good classroom management?  Funny and willing to take a joke, as well as give one out?  These will all make someone a better teacher, but show me how to measure those accurately, across all schools.

Also, since the students know that merit pay (when it exists) is often tied to their performance on standardized tests, it's probably not a surprise that some students will tank the test just to kill the extra pay for the teacher.

As a former teacher, one of the problems I've seen is that we don't require teachers to have degrees in the subject(s) they're going to teach.  Especially true of elementary school teachers.  Ask one of them - very likely a female (since male elementary teachers are just assumed to be pedophiles) - to give you a detailed description of why multiplying 2 negative numbers yields a positive.  I doubt 10% could do it.

IMHO, we'd do better with subject matter experts presenting the material, and having a specialist in classroom management controlling the kids.  But since we can't afford to pay one person a decent wage, forget about paying 2.
2018-04-16 09:28:15 PM  
4 votes:

DrBrownCow: TL:DR   When you've given up the the potential for the unknown in exchange for stability, you're going to fight for what you've been promised.

Teachers, particularly those starting out, don't just see friends off in the business making higher salaries, they realize they know exactly what they themselves will be making year after year.   Even where the teacher pay is good, they'll never get called into an office and hear their boss non-nonchalantly award them a five figure bonus.  Or, work and strategize into a half a million dollar salary.   By continuing to do what they do, teachers will never get assigned to project where they get paid to travel to different countries (unless they're taking 30 teenagers along).

No, they know what they'll make this year, next year, ten years in the future, and even what they'll make in retirement. In hindsight, many in business might have preferred more security, and many teachers would have done no better or even worse in the business world, but its different when it's all in front of you.  There is something about the predictability and lack of merit pay present in the teacher salary scale that violates aspects of American culture.


Those are called unions and most workers would probably prefer them if they knew what they entailed
2018-04-16 07:58:27 PM  
4 votes:

lando12310: since teachers only work 3/4 of the time their salary should be considered (x/3)4.... so 30k would really be 40k if they worked in a year round profession. IMO, we should really switch to year round school on a trimester system, teachers could work year round and students wouldn't get stupider after 3 months off.


Teaching is a full time job. My wife would be in by 7 and out around 4. 20 minutes for lunch.
And it's now 2 months off in the summer...school runs until the end of June now, and restarts before Labor day.
2018-04-16 07:21:57 PM  
4 votes:
I went through a really mediocre school system, where it was true - you got out of it what you put into it.  There were some teachers who were lucky to have a job, but most of them were just what you'd expect, rather middling.  The good teachers, the ones that were devoted and really put themselves into their work, I kind of felt sorry for, even as a student.  Most of the kids didn't appreciate their effort, and the administration didn't either.
2018-04-16 05:51:55 PM  
4 votes:
When I was in college I honestly thought I would be a teacher, as it seemed like a good, respectable career.

I'm not saying it isn't, but I'm glad I found a career that isn't in education.
2018-04-16 02:32:37 PM  
4 votes:
I thought they did it for the love of the kids.  How can we justify paying something to do what they love?

/So not serious
2018-04-16 07:56:54 PM  
3 votes:

AmbassadorBooze: DayBreakBoys: Ignoramist: Oh for fark's sake.

Teachers are paid on salary, not by the hour. Like everyone else, their vacation pay is deducted and then paid out during vacation time. That's how every professional is paid, no different.  Annual salary is annual salary.

One big difference : their vacation comes in a huge chunk that's about 8 times longer than anyone else's, which is conducive to picking up a 2nd job.

Also, no child care expenses, because they are home when the kids are.

I can tell you that last point is 100% wrong.

100% wrong?  The child and teacher parent are never home at the same time?  Maybe possible if the teacher parent is male, but most teachers are female, so I bet they are around for the birth at the very least.  And that would reduce the time away from the child to below 100% by some fraction.

Why are we letting teachers have children if they are NEVER around?!  That isnt good for the child at all!


username checks out
2018-04-16 07:13:49 PM  
3 votes:

love_alice: Don't teachers get to retire after 20 years, with health care and full pension for the remainder of their lives?    Shouldn't that factor into the whole 'underpayment' argument?


Not at full pension and benefits, no. The standard for full payment is 30 years. About 85% of those who attempt that fail to last that long. I lasted 29 years before my health broke.
2018-04-16 07:06:03 PM  
3 votes:

thehobbes: Skyking Skyking Do Not Answer: They can tell you what gluten is and how it holds the bread together.

But can they tell you how it kills?


I'm working on gluten free recipes, for that set of people at the school.  I try to let people make their own decisions about what to eat, but I may have rolled my eyes a time or two in regard to the self-diagnosis of "gluten intolerant."  I mean, Celiac's is real, but it's a much smaller percentage of the population than Facebook or whatever might lead you to believe.
2018-04-16 06:30:22 PM  
3 votes:

bigfire: doglover: bigfire: I love trolling the MIL.  Her - Masters in early childhood education and associated student loans vs Me - two year college dropout with 0 student debt.  She's got 30+ years in and I still made 40k more than her last year with no degree.

Still blows her mind.

How

I have a high demand trade and work lots of overtime and holidays (900-1200 hours OT per year).  When I was an apprentice, I didn't make nearly as much base salary as she did.   She worked in a po-dunk school district in the Ohio valley.


Ohio

And now everything makes sense.
2018-04-17 11:42:59 AM  
2 votes:

indy_kid: Rent Party: That is the fundamental problem with education.  Teachers are damn near unique in that they feel they should get paid according to their level of education rather than the quality of their work.  "I have a masters degree so I should get X" vs "I'm a hobo but my students regularly excel in AP coursework and score high in the SATs."

Show me a valid and reliable method of determining the quality of a teacher's work and you may have a point.  However, no such method exists, and so we have to rely on secondary factors, such as GPA, standardized test scores, etc.

Think about the best teacher you ever had; what made them so good?


The fact that they made me better at the subject they taught.  And that can, and was, verified by "standardized testing."

The notion that there is no way to reliably measure teacher quality is patently absurd, and used by people that don't want to be measured.  It is the educational equivalent of cops objecting to body cameras.   If I have no supervision or other quality control, I have absolutely no accountability to anyone.
2018-04-17 03:13:04 AM  
2 votes:

Rent Party: bigfire: I love trolling the MIL.  Her - Masters in early childhood education and associated student loans vs Me - two year college dropout with 0 student debt.  She's got 30+ years in and I still made 40k more than her last year with no degree.

Still blows her mind.

That is the fundamental problem with education.  Teachers are damn near unique in that they feel they should get paid according to their level of education rather than the quality of their work.  "I have a masters degree so I should get X" vs "I'm a hobo but my students regularly excel in AP coursework and score high in the SATs."

Bring up things like standardized quality metrics for merit pay and they lose their farkin' minds.


CEO pay is for showing up with a pulse. If pay was related to work done and value, guys picking veggies would be making more money than the guy selling them at the grocery HQ in Nebraska.

But yeah, it's awful when people ask to earn a living wage.
2018-04-16 09:32:30 PM  
2 votes:

DrBrownCow: starsrift: I mean, you could spend time, energy, and university fees to be a teacher.
Or you could work your way up to assistant manager of a fast food franchise.
The pay is about the same.

Let's ignore fast food working conditions, rarely getting days off and always a chance of getting called in, regular weekend and evening hours, lack of retirement benefits, marginal health benefits, and so on.

Average salary for assistant fast food manager is 30k.   It varies quite a bit for teachers of course by school district, but in my large urban district that has both the best and worst performing schools in the state, the teachers fresh out of school make 40k and finish at just over 80k before they're 60.    Median household income is 50k and median house prices are 160k.   Wit ha few years of service they are making more than the household income of most of the students.  (Heck, two mid-career teachers who end up married have a household income of 140k and 3 times the median household income in their last few years of service.)  There's no need to "work up" to anything.   It's entirely possible to teach 3rd grade for the entire career with pay based on years of service and certain credentials.

If teachers weren't teaching, I would bet many of them would consider private community service non-profits (and not as assistant fast food managers).   In the direct-client services of those professions, where college degrees and certifications are also required, they will be greeted with far lower pay, a lack of funding they didn't believe was possible, no unionization, no retirement plan other than a social security and a 401(k) with a marginal match, long, unpredictable hours, an expectation of impossible outcomes with difficult populations, the prospect of working 25 years with no retirement in sight and still being paid barely more than a new hire, being called in on days off, no chunks of vacation, credentials and supplies on your own time and dime, and the job insecurity that comes along with grant funds and incompetent management.

That's not to say teachers shouldn't expect better because some people with similar credentials and more experience have it worse.   But, a social worker friend of mine said the things I wrote above and ended by saying it is hard for her to work up an enthusiastic show of sympathy for teachers.


Sure... if they're actually getting raises. Unfortunately, since 07/08, most school districts around the country have been unable to give raises.  And the salary scale at my wife's district stops at 65k at 30 years.

I made that last year on my 5th year where I work. I've never received less than a 3.5% raise and I've never made less than 3k in bonuses. It's shameful.

/America's priorities are broken.
//teaching algebra for one year in NC was enough for me
///fear the slashies!
2018-04-16 09:17:06 PM  
2 votes:

tigerose: Ah, so it's teacher bashing day AGAIN? Seriously. If you don't work in a school, you just have no clue. You hear what the board wants you to hear. Do you know that your Title 1 teachers are screwed out of full time hours and benefits by 15 mins. Per day? Or that you can be doing the job of someone else in the district and you are part time and they are full? Then lets talk about the kids who don't have a winter coat, or whose parents consistantly don't pack them a lunch. And you have to see that and try to deal with it? Or the fact that for many, the crappy food they get at school is the best they will get all day long? And lets talk about curriculum that is not teacher tested, but is implemented  regardless? And yeah, show a years growth for each student? Well, ya know, explain how you apply that to a kid identified as gifted..Good luck. And yes, some really excellent teachers are willing to work for peanut, but as my FIL used to say, by and large, you pay peanuts, ya get monkeys.


I'm not seeing the normal teacher-bashing I usually see on Fark at all, so I'm not sure which post you're referring to. I've recounted my experience more times than I probably should, but for those who haven't been introduced to me yet I left a high-paying corporate job in which I worked about 70 hours a week for a low-paying teaching job in which I work about 50 hours. I am on a committee to write curriculum, which helps me earn extra money and serves as my part-time job. I spend about 20 hours a week doing that for extra money.

I've never been happier in a job than I am teaching in my Title 1 district on the south side of Tucson. It's a rough district, but the students are amazing, and they're just happy to have teachers who believe in them and want to help them succeed.

The best part about teaching there is that these aren't the kind of parents who think their snowflakes do no wrong. If I make a call home or have a conference about misbehavior, I know that kid is going to be disciplined at home. It makes a big difference.

My friends who teach/taught in wealthier districts tell me horror stories about helicopter parents who try to get them fired if Johnny doesn't get an A. I've never had an experience like that. I make it a point to make positive phone calls, and it breaks my heart when a parent tells me they've never gotten good news from a school. I'm trying to change things from within instead of crapping all over people who are trying to make things better for the kids.

As for summer vacation, I work a lot during the school year so that I can travel during the summer. I like going to ballparks, so this summer my teacher friend and I are going to SF for Giants games, OAK for A's games, Anaheim for Angels games, MN for Twins games, and Milwaukee for Brewers games. I earn the hell out of my summers and try to reward myself for how hard I work during the school year. Our summer is only the end of May until the end of July anyway; I'm not sure where this 3 months off thing comes from.
2018-04-16 09:07:52 PM  
2 votes:

Begoggle: The public education system is hated by Republicans for many reasons.


From what I've read here, some don't even want educated professionals teaching at private or charter schools either.  weird.
2018-04-16 09:05:20 PM  
2 votes:
The public education system is hated by Republicans for many reasons.
2018-04-16 08:43:38 PM  
2 votes:
It boils down to those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Zero respect for the whiny biatches in the teaching profession.
2018-04-16 07:37:47 PM  
2 votes:
since teachers only work 3/4 of the time their salary should be considered (x/3)4.... so 30k would really be 40k if they worked in a year round profession. IMO, we should really switch to year round school on a trimester system, teachers could work year round and students wouldn't get stupider after 3 months off.
2018-04-16 07:34:04 PM  
2 votes:

rewind2846: Rent Party: Bring up things like standardized quality metrics for merit pay and they lose their farkin' minds.

The human mind is not standardized. It is not a widget. Schools are not factories. Why would you insist on applying manufacturing standards to something that is not quantifiable by its very nature?


Reading and math abilities are easily tested and scored (quantifiable) it is the teachers job to get them to a certain standard, how they do it is up to them.
2018-04-16 07:33:05 PM  
2 votes:
I mean, you could spend time, energy, and university fees to be a teacher.

Or you could work your way up to assistant manager of a fast food franchise.

The pay is about the same.
2018-04-16 07:15:40 PM  
2 votes:

Skyking Skyking Do Not Answer: I'm a teacher who is going to have to work this summer, but it's cool because I would be bored to death hanging out around the house all summer and I can't afford to travel anywhere.

I know the cool kids on fark are into teacher bashing and all that, but most of us in the profession are out there giving it our best shot everyday.  We care about your kids and want to keep them safe.  I know I want the best for the kids I teach and interact with daily.

Today I made muffins and bread with some kids who have some pretty serious disabilities.  That might not sound like much until you factor in everything involved in a complex task such as baking.

We start with hand-washing and why we wash our hands.  I talk about food-borne illnesses and how we can prevent them.  We learn about cross-contamination and how to prevent it.  We learn the first rule of oven safety:  the stove and oven must always be turned off when you're done cooking, 100% of the time.

I teach with an eye toward making these kids competent cooks for both home and work.  I am not a chef by any means but people really like my cooking.  I know a lot of comfort food dishes and some southern dishes.  I make a nice loaf of bread.  I'm teaching them what I know how to make right now but I'm planning on taking more cooking classes to improve my program.   These guys are middle school and I hope to send them to high school ready for a culinary arts program.

My students learn to use a sharp knife safely.  They learn about cross-contamination.  They can tell you what gluten is and how it holds the bread together.  They can tell you all about yeast.  They are learning how to use a Kitchenaide professional mixer to knead dough and mix cookie batter.

On Muffin Monday, we make several dozen muffins for the teacher's lounge that get scarfed up quick.  They're that good.  Today we also made two loaves of bread that are going to be made into French toast.

We read recipes.  We use measuring spoons and cups accurately.  ...


Good on ya.

Wife is a retired middle school math teacher.
Teachers, librarians, anyone who gives knowledge, are literally forming the future of our country.
2018-04-16 07:13:43 PM  
2 votes:

abhorrent1: Meh, lots of people put in a lot of hours at crappy jobs for crappy pay. Teachers don't have a corner on that market. They do have a corner on whining about it though.


I work as retail management. I put in 65 hours last week, paid for 45. I wish that wasn't an average week.
2018-04-16 07:11:43 PM  
2 votes:

brizzle365: so, teachers are objects now? that explains so much of nothing!


Everything is an object...

// public class teacher extends person
2018-04-16 07:06:29 PM  
2 votes:
I had a Trumper last summer try to tell me why it was okay that teachers did not make so much, because there just wasn't enough money to go around, and they did not provide the same value to society.  I asked him what he did, and he owns a company that repairs copying machines, and was pretty successful at it, and that the key to his success, he went on, was not paying too much for all the guys actually repairing machines.  His whole argument was wrapped around that he was special, because he owned a business, and so therefore deserved more, more, more, than anyone who actually helped him maintain that business. I told him that I hope the free market delivers a competitor that undercuts his prices and puts him out of business, and that he would deserve his fate, at the other guy would clearly be a better businessman.  He did not think that was fair.
2018-04-16 06:29:57 PM  
2 votes:

Rent Party: That is the fundamental problem with education.  Teachers are damn near unique in that they feel they should get paid according to their level of education rather than the quality of their work.  "I have a masters degree so I should get X" vs "I'm a hobo but my students regularly excel in AP coursework and score high in the SATs."

Bring up things like standardized quality metrics for merit pay and they lose their farkin' minds.


And there are plenty of higher education programs out there that cater to teachers.  Everyone involved knows they're just in trading money for a paper certificate; they all go through the motions.  The teachers unions negotiated a particular raise for another degree.  So you get 2nd grade teachers getting raises for their 2nd masters degree in whatever.
2018-04-16 04:44:56 PM  
2 votes:
I thought about going into teaching.  But the whole idea of painting houses in the Florida summer heat seemed far too self-indulgent.  I'd feel like I was stealing money from the state.
2018-04-17 01:11:04 PM  
1 vote:
It's weird how many people think that teachers get the whole summer off.  Not even remotely close.  At the end they get about four weeks off.  They work past the end of the school year, they have training and they report back way before the kids do.  So... how many weeks of vacation do most professionals get?  Usually three to four weeks.  Which puts teachers at exactly what they should be at.  So, this whole weird thing where people think teachers only work 9 months out of the year really need to do their research before spouting that nonsense.
Also, whatever crappy job you have?  Try doing it while 30 people sit down and WATCH you do it.  30 people who don't want to be there. Day in and day out. Also teachers do not start and get off work when students do.  They get in early to get ready and they leave late.  Then they go home and grade papers.  Schools do not spend money on your classroom either.  All those educational decorations in the classroom?  Yeah, teachers buy that out of their meager salaries.  Many teachers go years between pay raises and school districts cover virtually none of their benefits.  So, they make tiny paychecks that are made minuscule by having to pay so much of their medical/dental.  And yet you always find people in these discussions who can't figure out why teachers are farking pissed off all the time. You make yourself look stupid when you interject shiat about something you know almost nothing about.  Yet, you seem to be convinced that your dumbass, misinformed comment is worth typing out.  You are living proof that our educational system has failed you on a very personal level.
2018-04-17 06:21:35 AM  
1 vote:
Ah yes, the only profession where people join knowing how crappy it is and then biatch about it for the rest of their career. Also, using the kids as pawns.

I file them with people who move next to dumps and airports and then complain about their situations.
2018-04-17 05:48:20 AM  
1 vote:

abiigdog: No teachers don't pay for school supplies, what a load of horseshiat.


Did you want to see receipts?
2018-04-17 03:20:08 AM  
1 vote:

GDubDub: Why do teachers insist that they do lesson plans every day?  Every teacher I knew reused the things from year to year, except when current events were on the menu.

They also share them between teachers, follow the textbook, get them online, and follow standardized programs.

While some teachers may sit down with a blank sheet every day, most do not do anything of the sort.


My mom did spend her time off writing a basic lesson plan (it's a schedule). Her principal demanded it. I'm sure that there was a lot of repetitive stuff because really, reading from 8-9 am, recess to let the kids burn off energy, then math from 9-10 and then recess to burn off energy isn't really going to change. What did change was how to teach reading and math. The devil is in the details. That's why teachers go to their own classes to learn new methods (not that I always agree with them). Sometimes old school is the best school.
2018-04-17 03:04:19 AM  
1 vote:
Why do teachers insist that they do lesson plans every day?  Every teacher I knew reused the things from year to year, except when current events were on the menu.

They also share them between teachers, follow the textbook, get them online, and follow standardized programs.

While some teachers may sit down with a blank sheet every day, most do not do anything of the sort.
2018-04-17 01:17:15 AM  
1 vote:
Another article put out by the Teacher PR machine. Yes they get a full years pay for 9 months of work, the rest of you need to work 12 months for the same money. No one cares if they defer it or not, for the same money most people work 12 months and don't have the freedom to work a hobby job in the summer.

No teachers don't pay for school supplies, what a load of horseshiat. Maybe some do of their own free will but its mostly BS. Let me guess they polled a bunch of teachers who decided to keep the myth alive by lying.

Teachers retire with a full pension on the taxpayers back for the rest of their life, plus medical benefits.

Yes Teachers work hard so what join the club I'm done tasting their tears, every 2 years they want 10 percent pay raises, enough is enough.
2018-04-17 12:21:33 AM  
1 vote:

bigfire: doglover: bigfire: I love trolling the MIL.  Her - Masters in early childhood education and associated student loans vs Me - two year college dropout with 0 student debt.  She's got 30+ years in and I still made 40k more than her last year with no degree.

Still blows her mind.

How

I have a high demand trade and work lots of overtime and holidays (900-1200 hours OT per year).  When I was an apprentice, I didn't make nearly as much base salary as she did.   She worked in a po-dunk school district in the Ohio valley.


You work 900-1200 hours of overtime a year and on holidays, and you only pull in an extra 40k, while she has her summers off and holidays off and you feel like you're the winner in this?
2018-04-16 11:11:37 PM  
1 vote:

love_alice: Don't teachers get to retire after 20 years, with health care and full pension for the remainder of their lives?    Shouldn't that factor into the whole 'underpayment' argument?


Ummm. No.
2018-04-16 10:27:24 PM  
1 vote:

weaselette: A couple of my closest friends are teachers, and they tend to think they have more stress than any other profession, and NEED the extended vacation time.


Try it.
2018-04-16 10:09:44 PM  
1 vote:

bigfire: MNguy: bigfire: MNguy: bigfire is entirely self-taught.  such bootstraps!

What part of Trade or Apprentice did you miss?  I didn't fall into my job without study or development of skills.  I chose to drop outta of college as it wasn't for me.  I am glad I came to that realization sooner rather than later. Bootstrappy? You bet. My race was only .6% of the population where I used to live.

Hmm.  I bet you had a teacher.  I bet that teacher makes more than you.  Still salty?

You're missing the point. The MIL is the twerkwaffle that thinks that the ONLY way to riches is via uni. I am happy for folks if they do what they like and make a living wage. As long as they do not feel like they had to get a degree no matter what. Teacher, Lawyer, Doctor, Dog groomer, whatever you are, enjoy. Just don't be a smug bastige because you decided to get a degree.


you are so wrong about me, but hey OK!  feel good about yourself! that's great!
2018-04-16 10:01:07 PM  
1 vote:
We have known since the days of Little House on The Prairie that teachers are "underpaid".

So why go into the profession and biatch about it all the time?

/Because those who can do, and those who can't teach.
//Both of my brothers failed down the rungs of life and are now teachers.
///And all they do is self-flagillate about how important they are and complain about their compensation.
2018-04-16 09:36:10 PM  
1 vote:

Rent Party: bigfire: I love trolling the MIL.  Her - Masters in early childhood education and associated student loans vs Me - two year college dropout with 0 student debt.  She's got 30+ years in and I still made 40k more than her last year with no degree.

Still blows her mind.

That is the fundamental problem with education.  Teachers are damn near unique in that they feel they should get paid according to their level of education rather than the quality of their work.  "I have a masters degree so I should get X" vs "I'm a hobo but my students regularly excel in AP coursework and score high in the SATs."

Bring up things like standardized quality metrics for merit pay and they lose their farkin' minds.


On the flip side I don't want my kids teachers training them to write standardized tests that don't do a good job of measuring anything. Or to punish the teachers who take the next hardest kids or poorer districts.

It's not as some as maybe you think. Standard tests are driven stoopid.
2018-04-16 09:24:27 PM  
1 vote:

bigfire: MNguy: bigfire is entirely self-taught.  such bootstraps!

What part of Trade or Apprentice did you miss?  I didn't fall into my job without study or development of skills.  I chose to drop outta of college as it wasn't for me.  I am glad I came to that realization sooner rather than later. Bootstrappy? You bet. My race was only .6% of the population where I used to live.


Hmm.  I bet you had a teacher.  I bet that teacher makes more than you.  Still salty?
2018-04-16 09:11:04 PM  
1 vote:

love_alice: Don't teachers get to retire after 20 years, with health care and full pension for the remainder of their lives?    Shouldn't that factor into the whole 'underpayment' argument?


LOL.
2018-04-16 09:01:02 PM  
1 vote:

bigfire: doglover: bigfire: doglover: bigfire: I love trolling the MIL.  Her - Masters in early childhood education and associated student loans vs Me - two year college dropout with 0 student debt.  She's got 30+ years in and I still made 40k more than her last year with no degree.

Still blows her mind.

How

I have a high demand trade and work lots of overtime and holidays (900-1200 hours OT per year).  When I was an apprentice, I didn't make nearly as much base salary as she did.   She worked in a po-dunk school district in the Ohio valley.

Ohio

And now everything makes sense.

Ohio Valley - couple of states fit that description.  Looks like your geography teacher failed you or are you pre-disposed to dismiss any midwesterner?


You should feel honored. Ohio is probably the classiest part of the Ohio Valley. He could have assumed you were from Kentucky or Pittsburgh.
2018-04-16 08:18:42 PM  
1 vote:

DrBrownCow: 2) when they believe the evaluation is sufficiently fair.


THIS. If I were making things in a factory I would have control over what was produced. Can't do that with people. They come as they are. There are stories in these threads - usually in the ones about student debt - from people who did miserably in school only to blossom in college/university.

Can the people who want numbers and grades and evaluations for teachers explain this?
2018-04-16 07:50:57 PM  
1 vote:

Explodo: If you can come up with a sure-fire scientific way of doing compensation based on performance that really works for teaching, I'd love to hear it.


Fark_Guy_Rob: .....The teachers unions negotiated a particular raise for another degree. So you get 2nd grade teachers getting raises for their 2nd masters degree in whatever......


We have a school district where the best and most committed teachers make the same as the teachers who "checked out" long ago and are nowhere to be found after the ring of the bell (but have the same credential and years of service).    A "pay for performance" system doesn't have to be perfect to be better than that system.      It also doesn't have to be based on student performance.   By now we surely know  a few things that "good teachers do".    Allow teachers to identify and select appropriate strategies and rate them on how well they carry them out.    If it isn't resulting in student growth or achievement, then the teacher is assisted in selecting different, potentially more effective strategies, and they're rated on how well they carry those out.
2018-04-16 07:37:48 PM  
1 vote:

doglover: bigfire: doglover: bigfire: doglover: bigfire: I love trolling the MIL.  Her - Masters in early childhood education and associated student loans vs Me - two year college dropout with 0 student debt.  She's got 30+ years in and I still made 40k more than her last year with no degree.

Still blows her mind.

How

I have a high demand trade and work lots of overtime and holidays (900-1200 hours OT per year).  When I was an apprentice, I didn't make nearly as much base salary as she did.   She worked in a po-dunk school district in the Ohio valley.

Ohio

And now everything makes sense.

Ohio Valley - couple of states fit that description.  Looks like your geography teacher failed you or are you pre-disposed to dismiss any midwesterner?

Let's just say it's no coincidence the humans to travel the furthest from Earth were under the command of a man from Cleveland.

There's a hell of a lot of midwest, but only one place that serves chili on pasta.


Skycrime, I mean Skyline is NOT chili.  I can't figure out which product from Cinci was worse, Springer or Skyline.
2018-04-16 07:29:20 PM  
1 vote:

weaselette: abhorrent1: Meh, lots of people put in a lot of hours at crappy jobs for crappy pay. Teachers don't have a corner on that market. They do have a corner on whining about it though.

This. A couple of my closest friends are teachers, and they tend to think they have more stress than any other profession, and NEED the extended vacation time. I wouldn't argue that they have some unique aggravations working at a public school, but they really do seem to forget the rest of us have plenty of job stress and only get a few weeks off to recoup every year. Plus, they are retiring at 55, and, well... I'm certainly not.


My parents were both teachers so I can say with authority that I feel grateful for how it went down for child care during spring break, winter break, summer vacation, snow days, and all the random government holidays and teacher inservice days.
2018-04-16 07:28:33 PM  
1 vote:
Ah, the old "extra hours spent grading papers" myth. If I had a dollar for every time a teacher told us "Give your quiz/test to your neighbor so we can grade them!" I'd be retired already.
2018-04-16 07:19:23 PM  
1 vote:
... AND THEY GET ALL THOSE FREE APPLES!

/rabble rabble
2018-04-16 07:17:58 PM  
1 vote:

bigfire: doglover: bigfire: doglover: bigfire: I love trolling the MIL.  Her - Masters in early childhood education and associated student loans vs Me - two year college dropout with 0 student debt.  She's got 30+ years in and I still made 40k more than her last year with no degree.

Still blows her mind.

How

I have a high demand trade and work lots of overtime and holidays (900-1200 hours OT per year).  When I was an apprentice, I didn't make nearly as much base salary as she did.   She worked in a po-dunk school district in the Ohio valley.

Ohio

And now everything makes sense.

Ohio Valley - couple of states fit that description.  Looks like your geography teacher failed you or are you pre-disposed to dismiss any midwesterner?


Let's just say it's no coincidence the humans to travel the furthest from Earth were under the command of a man from Cleveland.

There's a hell of a lot of midwest, but only one place that serves chili on pasta.
2018-04-16 07:09:48 PM  
1 vote:

bigfire: pounddawg: I work for a school district so I am getting a kick.....

But really.. the kids are mostly great. Most parents and admin suck, some teachers and students do.

/Same holidays as Pounddawg Jr is awesome.

If it works for you, I'm happy for you.  I promise not to be a parent that sucks and my kids are not jackwagons.  If only I could talk the school board into not spending 75k on that new interior remodel for the school board conference room that's only 30'x18' and work on a 1-2% raise a year for you....


Oh it's a model of inefficiency. Came from being self employed. I'm baffled by the administration at times.
2018-04-16 06:52:17 PM  
1 vote:

abhorrent1: Meh, lots of people put in a lot of hours at crappy jobs for crappy pay. Teachers don't have a corner on that market. They do have a corner on whining about it though.


"I HAVE TO BUY PENCILS!"
2018-04-16 06:43:14 PM  
1 vote:

Ignoramist: Oh for fark's sake.

Also, no child care expenses, because they are home when the kids are.



Fewer child care expenses. A high school teacher may be required to stay for after school activities and then go pick up their kids at the elementary school. You'll still be in for the "Y" after school, but you may be able to forgo the Y during the summer.
2018-04-16 06:12:46 PM  
1 vote:
I thought they got in it for the gun-play .
2018-04-16 05:52:55 PM  
1 vote:
I applied for a school districr job last week. I'm looking forward to summers off, paid or not.
 
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