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(News4Jax)   Paid summer vacations, other stupid myths about public school teachers. You'll be glad you skipped that career in education   ( news4jax.com) divider line
    More: Obvious, teachers, High school, New York City, Education, Teacher, school-related activities teachers, public school teachers, United States  
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5828 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Apr 2018 at 5:50 PM (33 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2018-04-16 09:32:52 PM  

Huck And Molly Ziegler: I would think one of the more distressing parts of being a schoolteacher is watching your "babies" --- be they 1st-graders or high schoolers --- grow up and move along.

Or do I have that all wrong? Perhaps you're NOT supposed to be so fond of them that you'd hate to see them go (most of 'em, anyway). But, then you console yourself thinking of the next batch next year.


I used to keep track of former students and other kids from the high school teaching days on Facebook.  But I never had problems letting go or letting them grow up.  I get a kick out of seeing someone doing well who I knew as a goofy 15 year old.
 
2018-04-16 09:36:10 PM  

Rent Party: bigfire: I love trolling the MIL.  Her - Masters in early childhood education and associated student loans vs Me - two year college dropout with 0 student debt.  She's got 30+ years in and I still made 40k more than her last year with no degree.

Still blows her mind.

That is the fundamental problem with education.  Teachers are damn near unique in that they feel they should get paid according to their level of education rather than the quality of their work.  "I have a masters degree so I should get X" vs "I'm a hobo but my students regularly excel in AP coursework and score high in the SATs."

Bring up things like standardized quality metrics for merit pay and they lose their farkin' minds.


On the flip side I don't want my kids teachers training them to write standardized tests that don't do a good job of measuring anything. Or to punish the teachers who take the next hardest kids or poorer districts.

It's not as some as maybe you think. Standard tests are driven stoopid.
 
2018-04-16 09:38:32 PM  
Teachers please pick one.

A.  I get 3 months of vacation a year.
B.  Multiply your salary by 1.4 when comparing to other professions.
 
2018-04-16 10:01:07 PM  
We have known since the days of Little House on The Prairie that teachers are "underpaid".

So why go into the profession and biatch about it all the time?

/Because those who can do, and those who can't teach.
//Both of my brothers failed down the rungs of life and are now teachers.
///And all they do is self-flagillate about how important they are and complain about their compensation.
 
2018-04-16 10:09:44 PM  

bigfire: MNguy: bigfire: MNguy: bigfire is entirely self-taught.  such bootstraps!

What part of Trade or Apprentice did you miss?  I didn't fall into my job without study or development of skills.  I chose to drop outta of college as it wasn't for me.  I am glad I came to that realization sooner rather than later. Bootstrappy? You bet. My race was only .6% of the population where I used to live.

Hmm.  I bet you had a teacher.  I bet that teacher makes more than you.  Still salty?

You're missing the point. The MIL is the twerkwaffle that thinks that the ONLY way to riches is via uni. I am happy for folks if they do what they like and make a living wage. As long as they do not feel like they had to get a degree no matter what. Teacher, Lawyer, Doctor, Dog groomer, whatever you are, enjoy. Just don't be a smug bastige because you decided to get a degree.


you are so wrong about me, but hey OK!  feel good about yourself! that's great!
 
2018-04-16 10:27:23 PM  

Rent Party: That is the fundamental problem with education.  Teachers are damn near unique in that they feel they should get paid according to their level of education rather than the quality of their work.  "I have a masters degree so I should get X" vs "I'm a hobo but my students regularly excel in AP coursework and score high in the SATs."


Show me a valid and reliable method of determining the quality of a teacher's work and you may have a point.  However, no such method exists, and so we have to rely on secondary factors, such as GPA, standardized test scores, etc.

Think about the best teacher you ever had; what made them so good?  Knowledge of the subject?  Excitement about the subject matter?  Good classroom management?  Funny and willing to take a joke, as well as give one out?  These will all make someone a better teacher, but show me how to measure those accurately, across all schools.

Also, since the students know that merit pay (when it exists) is often tied to their performance on standardized tests, it's probably not a surprise that some students will tank the test just to kill the extra pay for the teacher.

As a former teacher, one of the problems I've seen is that we don't require teachers to have degrees in the subject(s) they're going to teach.  Especially true of elementary school teachers.  Ask one of them - very likely a female (since male elementary teachers are just assumed to be pedophiles) - to give you a detailed description of why multiplying 2 negative numbers yields a positive.  I doubt 10% could do it.

IMHO, we'd do better with subject matter experts presenting the material, and having a specialist in classroom management controlling the kids.  But since we can't afford to pay one person a decent wage, forget about paying 2.
 
2018-04-16 10:27:24 PM  

weaselette: A couple of my closest friends are teachers, and they tend to think they have more stress than any other profession, and NEED the extended vacation time.


Try it.
 
2018-04-16 10:35:19 PM  

bigfire: MNguy: bigfire: MNguy: bigfire is entirely self-taught.  such bootstraps!

What part of Trade or Apprentice did you miss?  I didn't fall into my job without study or development of skills.  I chose to drop outta of college as it wasn't for me.  I am glad I came to that realization sooner rather than later. Bootstrappy? You bet. My race was only .6% of the population where I used to live.

Hmm.  I bet you had a teacher.  I bet that teacher makes more than you.  Still salty?

You're missing the point. The MIL is the twerkwaffle that thinks that the ONLY way to riches is via uni. I am happy for folks if they do what they like and make a living wage. As long as they do not feel like they had to get a degree no matter what. Teacher, Lawyer, Doctor, Dog groomer, whatever you are, enjoy. Just don't be a smug bastige because you decided to get a degree.


This. Bachelor's degrees are the new high school diploma in that they're the minimum educational requirement for most jobs now. So you have a lot of college students who really shouldn't be in college but they're there just to get that degree so they can get a decent job. More people should consider the skilled trades, and public schools should help students decide which path is best for them and start preparing for it.

I don't see any reason why an apprenticeship program couldn't be incorporated in a high school curriculum if they can work out a deal where the local employers and/or unions partner with the schools. It wouldn't have to be much more than their giving the school a monthly evaluation of their student-apprentices. The kids could go to classes in the mornings for their regular core "three Rs" studies then report to work after lunch or something like that so they'd only be half-day apprentices until after graduation, but they'd already have a head start on making it to journeyman that much sooner. It'd be pretty nice to be making journeyman-level union scale wages by the time you're 20.

For their morning classes, I'd recommend courses that would help them to succeed in life: such practical mathematics and physics as would be useful on the job, things like budgeting, planning for retirement, budgeting and saving, investment strategies, doing taxes, health and nutrition, sex ed and family planning, and that sort of thing.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with being a blue-collar worker. The education system should help those who choose that as a career path to succeed in life, which would also allow it to be better able to help those pursuing STEM or other professional career paths as they can spend more time with those students if the class isn't half full of shop majors slowing it down.
 
2018-04-16 10:38:04 PM  

Stands With A Tiny Fist: weaselette: A couple of my closest friends are teachers, and they tend to think they have more stress than any other profession, and NEED the extended vacation time.

Try it.


Yeah. Outside of active combat zones and operating rooms, staring down the barrel of of a few dozen kids for slightly more than minimum wage is the most stressful thing I can think of.

Even that jackanape from Brave Wilderness gets to travel a lot and enjoy scenery in between gila monster bites.
 
2018-04-16 10:41:59 PM  

fickenchucker: So why go into the profession and biatch about it all the time?


We generally don't. Not outside the teaching community, anyway. Those who've never taught don't get it. Not really. Not the general public, not friends of teachers, not spouses. I'm not throwing rocks here, but you have to experience it first-hand to understand.

If you actually pay attention, you'll note that some non-teacher brought it up whenever it comes up.
 
2018-04-16 11:01:49 PM  

doglover: bigfire: doglover: bigfire: doglover: bigfire: I love trolling the MIL.  Her - Masters in early childhood education and associated student loans vs Me - two year college dropout with 0 student debt.  She's got 30+ years in and I still made 40k more than her last year with no degree.

Still blows her mind.

How

I have a high demand trade and work lots of overtime and holidays (900-1200 hours OT per year).  When I was an apprentice, I didn't make nearly as much base salary as she did.   She worked in a po-dunk school district in the Ohio valley.

Ohio

And now everything makes sense.

Ohio Valley - couple of states fit that description.  Looks like your geography teacher failed you or are you pre-disposed to dismiss any midwesterner?

Let's just say it's no coincidence the humans to travel the furthest from Earth were under the command of a man from Cleveland.

There's a hell of a lot of midwest, but only one place that serves chili on pasta.


Cincinnati isn't Ohio. I have to point this out in every thread in which they and their horrible pasta mess are mentioned. They're Indiana...or Kentucky. In any case, they aren't Ohio.

Seriously, fly into Cincinnati (don't really do this under any circumstances) and tell me what your gps says.
 
2018-04-16 11:10:54 PM  

holdmybones: doglover: bigfire: doglover: bigfire: doglover: bigfire: I love trolling the MIL.  Her - Masters in early childhood education and associated student loans vs Me - two year college dropout with 0 student debt.  She's got 30+ years in and I still made 40k more than her last year with no degree.

Still blows her mind.

How

I have a high demand trade and work lots of overtime and holidays (900-1200 hours OT per year).  When I was an apprentice, I didn't make nearly as much base salary as she did.   She worked in a po-dunk school district in the Ohio valley.

Ohio

And now everything makes sense.

Ohio Valley - couple of states fit that description.  Looks like your geography teacher failed you or are you pre-disposed to dismiss any midwesterner?

Let's just say it's no coincidence the humans to travel the furthest from Earth were under the command of a man from Cleveland.

There's a hell of a lot of midwest, but only one place that serves chili on pasta.

Cincinnati isn't Ohio. I have to point this out in every thread in which they and their horrible pasta mess are mentioned. They're Indiana...or Kentucky. In any case, they aren't Ohio.

Seriously, fly into Cincinnati (don't really do this under any circumstances) and tell me what your gps says.


Covington.
 
2018-04-16 11:11:37 PM  

love_alice: Don't teachers get to retire after 20 years, with health care and full pension for the remainder of their lives?    Shouldn't that factor into the whole 'underpayment' argument?


Ummm. No.
 
2018-04-16 11:13:16 PM  

bigfire: holdmybones: doglover: bigfire: doglover: bigfire: doglover: bigfire: I love trolling the MIL.  Her - Masters in early childhood education and associated student loans vs Me - two year college dropout with 0 student debt.  She's got 30+ years in and I still made 40k more than her last year with no degree.

Still blows her mind.

How

I have a high demand trade and work lots of overtime and holidays (900-1200 hours OT per year).  When I was an apprentice, I didn't make nearly as much base salary as she did.   She worked in a po-dunk school district in the Ohio valley.

Ohio

And now everything makes sense.

Ohio Valley - couple of states fit that description.  Looks like your geography teacher failed you or are you pre-disposed to dismiss any midwesterner?

Let's just say it's no coincidence the humans to travel the furthest from Earth were under the command of a man from Cleveland.

There's a hell of a lot of midwest, but only one place that serves chili on pasta.

Cincinnati isn't Ohio. I have to point this out in every thread in which they and their horrible pasta mess are mentioned. They're Indiana...or Kentucky. In any case, they aren't Ohio.

Seriously, fly into Cincinnati (don't really do this under any circumstances) and tell me what your gps says.

Covington.


Precisely. Not Ohio.

And, for the record, I like Kentucky. Just not the Cincinnati part. Same with Indiana.

Just kidding. Fark Indiana.
 
2018-04-16 11:17:35 PM  

Ignoramist: Oh for fark's sake.

Teachers are paid on salary, not by the hour. Like everyone else, their vacation pay is deducted and then paid out during vacation time. That's how every professional is paid, no different.  Annual salary is annual salary.

One big difference : their vacation comes in a huge chunk that's about 8 times longer than anyone else's, which is conducive to picking up a 2nd job.

Also, no child care expenses, because they are home when the kids are.

Marry a teacher.  All of their vacation time is right on top of the peak vacation time to go any where or do anything.
 
2018-04-16 11:21:46 PM  
I got my teachers certification, my Wife said I should change careers. I went to a few job fairs, it's as much a clique as high school. Went back to doing I.T. work at a bank. they worked me three times as much, but I made five times the money. Hated to leave that job. Two Sisters in law and a niece are teachers, their hubbies say it's good for them, I say there's no money in it. Too much mediocrity.
 
2018-04-16 11:26:32 PM  

indy_kid:  Ask one of them ... to give you a detailed description of

why multiplying 2 negative numbers yields a positive.

As an English major, suddenly I am intrigued --- is that something you can explain here? Thx
 
2018-04-16 11:26:34 PM  
I love teachers.  Value them.  I'd pay them fortunes if I were in charge - except my kid's teacher this year.  fark that woman in the depths of hell with a flaming iron fence post while Despacito plays on repeat.  With any job where you actually work with people, you have to know when to get out and this stupid biatch should've gotten out years ago.  One thing I'd love to do is send teachers on sabbatical for a year and then give them a nice parting gift if/when they decide not to come back.   I'll farking pay the lazy farks to stay away from kids.
 
2018-04-16 11:46:51 PM  

starsrift: Oh, my goodness. 40k to maybe 80k by the time they retire, if they're lucky enough to not get stuck at a substitute teacher position before getting something tenure. After getting student loans and the whole shebang..............Well, sign me up for a new Ferrari.


A good teacher should expect a comfortable, stable income and benefits so they can focus on their work but also not burn out from it.  Nobody is seriously suggesting they be promised riches.   With adequate pay and resources to meet expectations there are plenty of people willing and capable.   Why not promise riches?   The relative impact of higher wages on student performance versus has to be compared to other approaches.     The highest performing schools in my district spend the least per student, even after controlling for the lower building maintenance costs of the newer schools.   The students at the higher performing schools bring fewer problems with them from home that interfere with learning and have to be dealt with at school.   Interventions to improve home life (i.e., greater economic opportunity, medical care, food quality, affordable decent housing, etc...) lead to better student outcomes among other positive consequences.
 
2018-04-17 12:00:21 AM  

DrBrownCow: Interventions to improve home life (i.e., greater economic opportunity, medical care, food quality, affordable decent housing, etc...)


zOMG SOCIALISM!
 
2018-04-17 12:02:33 AM  
Kerrie Dallman, the president of the Colorado Education Association (CEA), said each year she'd spend between $800 and $1,000 on average buying supplemental textbooks and classroom materials, but most CEA members pay about $650.

This is effectively a tax that only teachers have to pay. Would you have a tax that only coal miners have to pay?
 
2018-04-17 12:17:39 AM  

Lee Jackson Beauregard: Kerrie Dallman, the president of the Colorado Education Association (CEA), said each year she'd spend between $800 and $1,000 on average buying supplemental textbooks and classroom materials, but most CEA members pay about $650.

This is effectively a tax that only teachers have to pay. Would you have a tax that only coal miners have to pay?


If the government wants less coal miners, then taxing them is the answer.  Tax things you want less of (cigaretts), subsidize things you want more of (solar power).  Tax coal miners out of exisitence should be one of the things the dems run on in the next election.  Few coal miners means less black lung means less heath care for black lung.  Also if there are no jobs in coal land then people move or die, and those districts get few representatives.
 
2018-04-17 12:21:33 AM  

bigfire: doglover: bigfire: I love trolling the MIL.  Her - Masters in early childhood education and associated student loans vs Me - two year college dropout with 0 student debt.  She's got 30+ years in and I still made 40k more than her last year with no degree.

Still blows her mind.

How

I have a high demand trade and work lots of overtime and holidays (900-1200 hours OT per year).  When I was an apprentice, I didn't make nearly as much base salary as she did.   She worked in a po-dunk school district in the Ohio valley.


You work 900-1200 hours of overtime a year and on holidays, and you only pull in an extra 40k, while she has her summers off and holidays off and you feel like you're the winner in this?
 
2018-04-17 01:07:57 AM  

Skyking Skyking Do Not Answer: I know the cool kids on fark are into teacher bashing and all that


cool kids trolls

Other than the usual suspects that'll try to argue anything just to argue/be a jackhole, there really aren't that many people on here that fail to understand it's not a rose garden.  Most teaching threads seem to be about 60/40 - 70/30 toward sanity.  The smaller percentage is about what you get on any issue that's not say child molestation.  Pretty much people that are gonna be contrarians nearly no matter what, unless it's something so bad they just don't want to be on the internet having advocated it
 
2018-04-17 01:08:06 AM  

Demetrius: TommyDeuce: I thought they did it for the love of the kids.  How can we justify paying something to do what they love?

/So not serious

Sadly I'm sure there are plenty in the GOP who feel this exact way.


How would you know? It's not like you ever actually practice the tolerance and understanding you preach. Just hurl insults online and make wild accusations from the comfort and safety of your keyboard.

Such progress. Very courage. Wow
 
2018-04-17 01:10:04 AM  

bigfire: I love trolling the MIL.  Her - Masters in early childhood education and associated student loans vs Me - two year college dropout with 0 student debt.  She's got 30+ years in and I still made 40k more than her last year with no degree.

Still blows her mind.


What do you do?
 
2018-04-17 01:17:15 AM  
Another article put out by the Teacher PR machine. Yes they get a full years pay for 9 months of work, the rest of you need to work 12 months for the same money. No one cares if they defer it or not, for the same money most people work 12 months and don't have the freedom to work a hobby job in the summer.

No teachers don't pay for school supplies, what a load of horseshiat. Maybe some do of their own free will but its mostly BS. Let me guess they polled a bunch of teachers who decided to keep the myth alive by lying.

Teachers retire with a full pension on the taxpayers back for the rest of their life, plus medical benefits.

Yes Teachers work hard so what join the club I'm done tasting their tears, every 2 years they want 10 percent pay raises, enough is enough.
 
2018-04-17 01:30:09 AM  

Huck And Molly Ziegler: indy_kid:  Ask one of them ... to give you a detailed description of why multiplying 2 negative numbers yields a positive.

As an English major, suddenly I am intrigued --- is that something you can explain here? Thx


Since you're an English major, it might be useful to think of multiplying negatives as a mathematical double negative.   -2 x -2  is "two times I'm not going to decrease by two"  or "Two times I am not going to give away two dollars."   I have four dollars I wouldn't have had if I had given two dollars away two times.   Using the distributive property we show this as -2(0-2) then (-2 x 0)+(-2 x -2) which is 0+4 or 4.

If that didn't make sense, first think about multiplying positive numbers.  We can turn 2 x 2 into words by saying "Increase by two, two times" or "You're going to give me two dollars two times.    You could write that out as  2(0+2) then (2x0)+(2x2) which is 0+4 and that equals 4.   I now have four dollars..

A positive and negative is also easy to  understand.   2 x -2 is "two times I'm going to decrease by two" or "I'm going to give away two dollars two times.  So, 2(0-2) which is (2 x 0)+(2 x -2) which is 0+-4 or -4.  I have 4 fewer dollars after removing two dollars two times.
 
2018-04-17 02:14:57 AM  
I don't disagree that teachers work long hours.  White collar jobs come with stress, long hours, and uncompensated expenses.

The interesting part to me is that instead of asking why everyone else has to work so hard, American society contents its self to blame teachers for being "lazy".
 
2018-04-17 02:42:21 AM  

Huck And Molly Ziegler: tigerose: Huck And Molly Ziegler: I would think one of the more distressing parts of being a schoolteacher is watching your "babies" --- be they 1st-graders or high schoolers --- grow up and move along.

Or do I have that all wrong? Perhaps you're NOT supposed to be so fond of them that you'd hate to see them go (most of 'em, anyway). But, then you console yourself thinking of the next batch next year.


Actually, that is one of the coolest parts of being in education. Seeing your students move on, that is the point. When they arrive at the next level, well prepared. Better than chocolate/bacon/coffee. Even better, when they come back a few years later and remind you of the one thing you did, that they remember..

CSB..I did a read aloud to a group of 5th graders..my first year in the library, we had a chapter a week..took us all school year to finish..A few years ago, I was doing a Living History presentation to a group of 8th graders, before they had their Washington trip..I had a student recognise me..from 3 yrs ago! I was in full Civil War regalia too...she mentioned the book, about a mouse, and a boy who drew (A Nest for Celeste)..That. Is what we live for. Priceless.

Super. I have great regard for and happy thoughts about nearly all my teachers. Except Mrs. Rhodes in 4th grade. She was arbitrary and capricious. (My Latin teacher in high school was, too, but by that time we had sort of figured out that's the way the world works.)


I had a second grade teacher that was by most fair accounts a cast iron biatch. My mom was a teacher at a different school (same grade level) that had gunshots outside of her classroom window (so not in a good area). I complained to her about it at the time and she took the other teachers side. Decades later when I brought it up she told me that my teacher was absolutely wrong in how she dealt with me but that the lesson she was teaching me wasn't reading, writing or math because she had already done that with me but it was about getting along with other people even when you don't like them.

It was a good lesson seeing as I still remember it.
 
2018-04-17 03:04:19 AM  
Why do teachers insist that they do lesson plans every day?  Every teacher I knew reused the things from year to year, except when current events were on the menu.

They also share them between teachers, follow the textbook, get them online, and follow standardized programs.

While some teachers may sit down with a blank sheet every day, most do not do anything of the sort.
 
2018-04-17 03:13:04 AM  

Rent Party: bigfire: I love trolling the MIL.  Her - Masters in early childhood education and associated student loans vs Me - two year college dropout with 0 student debt.  She's got 30+ years in and I still made 40k more than her last year with no degree.

Still blows her mind.

That is the fundamental problem with education.  Teachers are damn near unique in that they feel they should get paid according to their level of education rather than the quality of their work.  "I have a masters degree so I should get X" vs "I'm a hobo but my students regularly excel in AP coursework and score high in the SATs."

Bring up things like standardized quality metrics for merit pay and they lose their farkin' minds.


CEO pay is for showing up with a pulse. If pay was related to work done and value, guys picking veggies would be making more money than the guy selling them at the grocery HQ in Nebraska.

But yeah, it's awful when people ask to earn a living wage.
 
2018-04-17 03:19:02 AM  

GDubDub: Why do teachers insist that they do lesson plans every day?  Every teacher I knew reused the things from year to year, except when current events were on the menu.

They also share them between teachers, follow the textbook, get them online, and follow standardized programs.

While some teachers may sit down with a blank sheet every day, most do not do anything of the sort.


Pilots use the same checklist every flight! The slackers.
 
2018-04-17 03:20:08 AM  

GDubDub: Why do teachers insist that they do lesson plans every day?  Every teacher I knew reused the things from year to year, except when current events were on the menu.

They also share them between teachers, follow the textbook, get them online, and follow standardized programs.

While some teachers may sit down with a blank sheet every day, most do not do anything of the sort.


My mom did spend her time off writing a basic lesson plan (it's a schedule). Her principal demanded it. I'm sure that there was a lot of repetitive stuff because really, reading from 8-9 am, recess to let the kids burn off energy, then math from 9-10 and then recess to burn off energy isn't really going to change. What did change was how to teach reading and math. The devil is in the details. That's why teachers go to their own classes to learn new methods (not that I always agree with them). Sometimes old school is the best school.
 
2018-04-17 03:44:36 AM  

DrBrownCow: Huck And Molly Ziegler: indy_kid:  Ask one of them ... to give you a detailed description of why multiplying 2 negative numbers yields a positive.

As an English major, suddenly I am intrigued --- is that something you can explain here? Thx

Since you're an English major, it might be useful to think of multiplying negatives as a mathematical double negative.   -2 x -2  is "two times I'm not going to decrease by two"  or "Two times I am not going to give away two dollars."   I have four dollars I wouldn't have had if I had given two dollars away two times.   Using the distributive property we show this as -2(0-2) then (-2 x 0)+(-2 x -2) which is 0+4 or 4.

If that didn't make sense, first think about multiplying positive numbers.  We can turn 2 x 2 into words by saying "Increase by two, two times" or "You're going to give me two dollars two times.    You could write that out as  2(0+2) then (2x0)+(2x2) which is 0+4 and that equals 4.   I now have four dollars..

A positive and negative is also easy to  understand.   2 x -2 is "two times I'm going to decrease by two" or "I'm going to give away two dollars two times.  So, 2(0-2) which is (2 x 0)+(2 x -2) which is 0+-4 or -4.  I have 4 fewer dollars after removing two dollars two times.


Thank you. I promise I will study that later, when it's not bedtime ...
 
2018-04-17 04:58:47 AM  

bigfire: I love trolling the MIL.  Her - Masters in early childhood education and associated student loans vs Me - two year college dropout with 0 student debt.  She's got 30+ years in and I still made 40k more than her last year with no degree.

Still blows her mind.


img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2018-04-17 05:39:22 AM  

indy_kid: As a former teacher, one of the problems I've seen is that we don't require teachers to have degrees in the subject(s) they're going to teach.


In point of fact, every US state requires at least a bachelor's degree in the subject you're going to teach before you can be certified to teach high school. (Elementary school certifications don't require a specific major, but instead require a credit equivalent that's more spread around. Requirements for middle school are a bit fuzzier.)

It's also a requirement for the base education degree. (It's possible to do the bachelor's equivalent concurrently with the education credits.

You also have to do a number of pretty strenuous standardized tests (Praxis (qualifies you to take an education degree), Praxis-II Content (testing your bachelor's), and Praxis-II PLC (testing your education degree). Each one takes about three hours to complete, and I don't know many people who don't run out of time.

And at least most US states (Maine for sure, where I got my TC training) require you to be doing a Master's degree within five years of starting to teach.

My province recognizes my own degree qualifications as the equivalent of a bachelor's with a triple major. (Not really sure how the initials behind my name work out with my degrees, but that's what the province put on my certification.)
 
2018-04-17 05:48:20 AM  

abiigdog: No teachers don't pay for school supplies, what a load of horseshiat.


Did you want to see receipts?
 
2018-04-17 06:02:08 AM  

Radioactive Ass: My mom did spend her time off writing a basic lesson plan (it's a schedule). Her principal demanded it.


There's really two forms of lesson planning. There's detailed lesson plans which lead you through delivery of an unfamiliar lesson (these are mainly for transferring, usually kept year to year, and detail extra things like accommodations). This is used to plan lessons.

There's the daily lesson which tends to be a lot more terse. These are the teacher equivalent of a daily planner to-do list. A typical math lesson laid out here would be a reminder to cover pages n through n+3, with exercises m to p, skipping q because of an issue with that question that came up in review. This kind of plan is used to plan and update scheduling, and aren't really done very far in advance (weird things happen during a period, so these plans need pretty much continuous adjusting.)  It also serves as an audit log.
 
2018-04-17 06:21:35 AM  
Ah yes, the only profession where people join knowing how crappy it is and then biatch about it for the rest of their career. Also, using the kids as pawns.

I file them with people who move next to dumps and airports and then complain about their situations.
 
2018-04-17 06:47:54 AM  

love_alice: Don't teachers get to retire after 20 years, with health care and full pension for the remainder of their lives?    Shouldn't that factor into the whole 'underpayment' argument?


No.

They used to.  Not anymore.  It is part of the reason the education field sucks now.
 
2018-04-17 07:08:35 AM  

Lee Jackson Beauregard: have to pay?


You need to do a compare and contrast between 'have to pay' and 'choose to pay'.
3 pages, single space.
 
2018-04-17 07:39:23 AM  

abhorrent1: Meh, lots of people put in a lot of hours at crappy jobs for crappy pay. Teachers don't have a corner on that market. They do have a corner on whining about it though.


well why don't we just let the chinese and russians open a bunch of charter schools to teach our children then? :^)
 
2018-04-17 08:58:38 AM  

Huck And Molly Ziegler: indy_kid:  Ask one of them ... to give you a detailed description of why multiplying 2 negative numbers yields a positive.

As an English major, suddenly I am intrigued --- is that something you can explain here? Thx


This is how my math teacher explained it to us: when good things happen to good people that's good, when good things happen to bad people that's bad, when bad things happen to good people that's bad, when bad things happen to bad people that's good. Good being a positive number and bad being a negative number.

So no, I can't explain why. I was never taught why, just that that's the way it is. (He was a shiatty teacher, wore the same suit all week. We could tell by the chalk smears on it. Just putting in time 'til retirement, so he was. Which is why I've never cared about math(s).)
 
2018-04-17 09:02:04 AM  

DrBrownCow: starsrift: Oh, my goodness. 40k to maybe 80k by the time they retire, if they're lucky enough to not get stuck at a substitute teacher position before getting something tenure. After getting student loans and the whole shebang..............Well, sign me up for a new Ferrari.

A good teacher should expect a comfortable, stable income and benefits so they can focus on their work but also not burn out from it.  Nobody is seriously suggesting they be promised riches.   With adequate pay and resources to meet expectations there are plenty of people willing and capable.   Why not promise riches?   The relative impact of higher wages on student performance versus has to be compared to other approaches.     The highest performing schools in my district spend the least per student, even after controlling for the lower building maintenance costs of the newer schools.   The students at the higher performing schools bring fewer problems with them from home that interfere with learning and have to be dealt with at school.   Interventions to improve home life (i.e., greater economic opportunity, medical care, food quality, affordable decent housing, etc...) lead to better student outcomes among other positive consequences.


If they were CEOs you can bet they'll get high pay and bonuses. Otherwise, how could we expect them to perform well? But no one cares about the teachers who are training the next generation of workers, doctors, lawyers and CEOs. They got theirs.
 
2018-04-17 09:37:53 AM  
Teachers in my town can earn around $36K starting.  Most entry level jobs for a 4 year degree (not including STEM) pay about $40-$50K here.  Getting 2 1/2 months off though throws that ratio off, when this is considered, the teacher earning $36K gets $900 per week worked and the entry level HR guy get between $770 and $961 a week.

Where things get bad is that to get a teaching job at the local public schools you need not only the degree, but also they require you to work as a sub for at least a year first.  Some people work as substitutes for up to 4 years before getting offered a full-time teaching job.  Many others drop out before that and go to work at a factory or warehouse as they need the money.  Meanwhile, when I got my business degree - there were literally thousands of jobs available to me immediately after college.

Not to say you need to do one of these, truck drivers get 50-100K a year, diesel mechanics can get 40-50K a year, and plumbers and electricians can make big money.  It's all about what you want to do.  If you like kids and like teaching, don't believe the BS about teachers being broke and destitute though - just know what your local market looks like.
 
2018-04-17 10:43:15 AM  

doglover: bigfire: doglover: bigfire: doglover: bigfire: I love trolling the MIL.  Her - Masters in early childhood education and associated student loans vs Me - two year college dropout with 0 student debt.  She's got 30+ years in and I still made 40k more than her last year with no degree.

Still blows her mind.

How

I have a high demand trade and work lots of overtime and holidays (900-1200 hours OT per year).  When I was an apprentice, I didn't make nearly as much base salary as she did.   She worked in a po-dunk school district in the Ohio valley.

Ohio

And now everything makes sense.

Ohio Valley - couple of states fit that description.  Looks like your geography teacher failed you or are you pre-disposed to dismiss any midwesterner?

Let's just say it's no coincidence the humans to travel the furthest from Earth were under the command of a man from Cleveland.

There's a hell of a lot of midwest, but only one place that serves chili on pasta.


Krebs, Oklahoma?  Didn't think it was that rare.
 
2018-04-17 11:00:38 AM  

bismark189: DrBrownCow: starsrift: I mean, you could spend time, energy, and university fees to be a teacher.
Or you could work your way up to assistant manager of a fast food franchise.
The pay is about the same.

Let's ignore fast food working conditions, rarely getting days off and always a chance of getting called in, regular weekend and evening hours, lack of retirement benefits, marginal health benefits, and so on.

Average salary for assistant fast food manager is 30k.   It varies quite a bit for teachers of course by school district, but in my large urban district that has both the best and worst performing schools in the state, the teachers fresh out of school make 40k and finish at just over 80k before they're 60.    Median household income is 50k and median house prices are 160k.   Wit ha few years of service they are making more than the household income of most of the students.  (Heck, two mid-career teachers who end up married have a household income of 140k and 3 times the median household income in their last few years of service.)  There's no need to "work up" to anything.   It's entirely possible to teach 3rd grade for the entire career with pay based on years of service and certain credentials.

If teachers weren't teaching, I would bet many of them would consider private community service non-profits (and not as assistant fast food managers).   In the direct-client services of those professions, where college degrees and certifications are also required, they will be greeted with far lower pay, a lack of funding they didn't believe was possible, no unionization, no retirement plan other than a social security and a 401(k) with a marginal match, long, unpredictable hours, an expectation of impossible outcomes with difficult populations, the prospect of working 25 years with no retirement in sight and still being paid barely more than a new hire, being called in on days off, no chunks of vacation, credentials and supplies on your own time and dime, and the job insecurity that comes along with grant funds and incompetent management.

That's not to say teachers shouldn't expect better because some people with similar credentials and more experience have it worse.   But, a social worker friend of mine said the things I wrote above and ended by saying it is hard for her to work up an enthusiastic show of sympathy for teachers.

Sure... if they're actually getting raises. Unfortunately, since 07/08, most school districts around the country have been unable to give raises.  And the salary scale at my wife's district stops at 65k at 30 years.

I made that last year on my 5th year where I work. I've never received less than a 3.5% raise and I've never made less than 3k in bonuses. It's shameful.

/America's priorities are broken.
//teaching algebra for one year in NC was enough for me
///fear the slashies!


We can't give teachers raises, but we can build multimillion dollar high school football stadia.  At least I know there will be a lot of people who peaked in high school who won't be downward wage pressure on me as I get closer to retirement.
 
2018-04-17 11:35:23 AM  

rewind2846: Rent Party: Bring up things like standardized quality metrics for merit pay and they lose their farkin' minds.

The human mind is not standardized. It is not a widget. Schools are not factories. Why would you insist on applying manufacturing standards to something that is not quantifiable by its very nature?


Well if that is the case, we should take all those Bachelor of Science in Education type degrees and revoke them.  We should also do away with clinical psychology,  family studies, childhood development, and any other BS degree dealing with human behaviors and provide a certificate of voodoo instead.

Because human behaviors absolutely are quantifiable, and there are huge areas of study based on that quantification.  That is particularly true of learned behavior like reading and math.
 
2018-04-17 11:42:59 AM  

indy_kid: Rent Party: That is the fundamental problem with education.  Teachers are damn near unique in that they feel they should get paid according to their level of education rather than the quality of their work.  "I have a masters degree so I should get X" vs "I'm a hobo but my students regularly excel in AP coursework and score high in the SATs."

Show me a valid and reliable method of determining the quality of a teacher's work and you may have a point.  However, no such method exists, and so we have to rely on secondary factors, such as GPA, standardized test scores, etc.

Think about the best teacher you ever had; what made them so good?


The fact that they made me better at the subject they taught.  And that can, and was, verified by "standardized testing."

The notion that there is no way to reliably measure teacher quality is patently absurd, and used by people that don't want to be measured.  It is the educational equivalent of cops objecting to body cameras.   If I have no supervision or other quality control, I have absolutely no accountability to anyone.
 
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