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(News4Jax)   Paid summer vacations, other stupid myths about public school teachers. You'll be glad you skipped that career in education   ( news4jax.com) divider line
    More: Obvious, teachers, High school, New York City, Education, Teacher, school-related activities teachers, public school teachers, United States  
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5828 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Apr 2018 at 5:50 PM (33 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2018-04-16 07:15:40 PM  

Skyking Skyking Do Not Answer: I'm a teacher who is going to have to work this summer, but it's cool because I would be bored to death hanging out around the house all summer and I can't afford to travel anywhere.

I know the cool kids on fark are into teacher bashing and all that, but most of us in the profession are out there giving it our best shot everyday.  We care about your kids and want to keep them safe.  I know I want the best for the kids I teach and interact with daily.

Today I made muffins and bread with some kids who have some pretty serious disabilities.  That might not sound like much until you factor in everything involved in a complex task such as baking.

We start with hand-washing and why we wash our hands.  I talk about food-borne illnesses and how we can prevent them.  We learn about cross-contamination and how to prevent it.  We learn the first rule of oven safety:  the stove and oven must always be turned off when you're done cooking, 100% of the time.

I teach with an eye toward making these kids competent cooks for both home and work.  I am not a chef by any means but people really like my cooking.  I know a lot of comfort food dishes and some southern dishes.  I make a nice loaf of bread.  I'm teaching them what I know how to make right now but I'm planning on taking more cooking classes to improve my program.   These guys are middle school and I hope to send them to high school ready for a culinary arts program.

My students learn to use a sharp knife safely.  They learn about cross-contamination.  They can tell you what gluten is and how it holds the bread together.  They can tell you all about yeast.  They are learning how to use a Kitchenaide professional mixer to knead dough and mix cookie batter.

On Muffin Monday, we make several dozen muffins for the teacher's lounge that get scarfed up quick.  They're that good.  Today we also made two loaves of bread that are going to be made into French toast.

We read recipes.  We use measuring spoons and cups accurately.  ...


Good on ya.

Wife is a retired middle school math teacher.
Teachers, librarians, anyone who gives knowledge, are literally forming the future of our country.
 
2018-04-16 07:17:58 PM  

bigfire: doglover: bigfire: doglover: bigfire: I love trolling the MIL.  Her - Masters in early childhood education and associated student loans vs Me - two year college dropout with 0 student debt.  She's got 30+ years in and I still made 40k more than her last year with no degree.

Still blows her mind.

How

I have a high demand trade and work lots of overtime and holidays (900-1200 hours OT per year).  When I was an apprentice, I didn't make nearly as much base salary as she did.   She worked in a po-dunk school district in the Ohio valley.

Ohio

And now everything makes sense.

Ohio Valley - couple of states fit that description.  Looks like your geography teacher failed you or are you pre-disposed to dismiss any midwesterner?


Let's just say it's no coincidence the humans to travel the furthest from Earth were under the command of a man from Cleveland.

There's a hell of a lot of midwest, but only one place that serves chili on pasta.
 
2018-04-16 07:18:17 PM  

bigfire: pounddawg: I work for a school district so I am getting a kick.....

But really.. the kids are mostly great. Most parents and admin suck, some teachers and students do.

/Same holidays as Pounddawg Jr is awesome.

If it works for you, I'm happy for you.  I promise not to be a parent that sucks and my kids are not jackwagons.  If only I could talk the school board into not spending 75k on that new interior remodel for the school board conference room that's only 30'x18' and work on a 1-2% raise a year for you....


And there it is. The money that is pissed away and yet teacher salaries and basic supplies are held hostage.
 
2018-04-16 07:19:23 PM  
... AND THEY GET ALL THOSE FREE APPLES!

/rabble rabble
 
2018-04-16 07:21:57 PM  
I went through a really mediocre school system, where it was true - you got out of it what you put into it.  There were some teachers who were lucky to have a job, but most of them were just what you'd expect, rather middling.  The good teachers, the ones that were devoted and really put themselves into their work, I kind of felt sorry for, even as a student.  Most of the kids didn't appreciate their effort, and the administration didn't either.
 
2018-04-16 07:22:20 PM  

doglover: There's a hell of a lot of midwest, but only one place that serves chili on pasta


I love that dish!

But I'm in Minnesota, so it's hard to find here.

/ too spicy doncha know
 
2018-04-16 07:27:59 PM  

Rent Party: Bring up things like standardized quality metrics for merit pay and they lose their farkin' minds.


The human mind is not standardized. It is not a widget. Schools are not factories. Why would you insist on applying manufacturing standards to something that is not quantifiable by its very nature?
 
2018-04-16 07:28:33 PM  
Ah, the old "extra hours spent grading papers" myth. If I had a dollar for every time a teacher told us "Give your quiz/test to your neighbor so we can grade them!" I'd be retired already.
 
2018-04-16 07:29:20 PM  

weaselette: abhorrent1: Meh, lots of people put in a lot of hours at crappy jobs for crappy pay. Teachers don't have a corner on that market. They do have a corner on whining about it though.

This. A couple of my closest friends are teachers, and they tend to think they have more stress than any other profession, and NEED the extended vacation time. I wouldn't argue that they have some unique aggravations working at a public school, but they really do seem to forget the rest of us have plenty of job stress and only get a few weeks off to recoup every year. Plus, they are retiring at 55, and, well... I'm certainly not.


My parents were both teachers so I can say with authority that I feel grateful for how it went down for child care during spring break, winter break, summer vacation, snow days, and all the random government holidays and teacher inservice days.
 
2018-04-16 07:30:50 PM  

Truck Fump: Skyking Skyking Do Not Answer: I'm a teacher who is going to have to work this summer, but it's cool because I would be bored to death hanging out around the house all summer and I can't afford to travel anywhere.

I know the cool kids on fark are into teacher bashing and all that, but most of us in the profession are out there giving it our best shot everyday.  We care about your kids and want to keep them safe.  I know I want the best for the kids I teach and interact with daily.

Today I made muffins and bread with some kids who have some pretty serious disabilities.  That might not sound like much until you factor in everything involved in a complex task such as baking.

We start with hand-washing and why we wash our hands.  I talk about food-borne illnesses and how we can prevent them.  We learn about cross-contamination and how to prevent it.  We learn the first rule of oven safety:  the stove and oven must always be turned off when you're done cooking, 100% of the time.

I teach with an eye toward making these kids competent cooks for both home and work.  I am not a chef by any means but people really like my cooking.  I know a lot of comfort food dishes and some southern dishes.  I make a nice loaf of bread.  I'm teaching them what I know how to make right now but I'm planning on taking more cooking classes to improve my program.   These guys are middle school and I hope to send them to high school ready for a culinary arts program.

My students learn to use a sharp knife safely.  They learn about cross-contamination.  They can tell you what gluten is and how it holds the bread together.  They can tell you all about yeast.  They are learning how to use a Kitchenaide professional mixer to knead dough and mix cookie batter.

On Muffin Monday, we make several dozen muffins for the teacher's lounge that get scarfed up quick.  They're that good.  Today we also made two loaves of bread that are going to be made into French toast.

We read recipes.  We use measuring spoons and cups accurately.  ...

Good on ya.

Wife is a retired middle school math teacher.
Teachers, librarians, anyone who gives knowledge, are literally forming the future of our country.


And THAT'S how we got to here? shiat. Horace Mann would turn over in his grave. "Be afraid to die unless you have won one small victory for mankind" indeed.
 
2018-04-16 07:33:05 PM  
I mean, you could spend time, energy, and university fees to be a teacher.

Or you could work your way up to assistant manager of a fast food franchise.

The pay is about the same.
 
2018-04-16 07:34:04 PM  

rewind2846: Rent Party: Bring up things like standardized quality metrics for merit pay and they lose their farkin' minds.

The human mind is not standardized. It is not a widget. Schools are not factories. Why would you insist on applying manufacturing standards to something that is not quantifiable by its very nature?


Reading and math abilities are easily tested and scored (quantifiable) it is the teachers job to get them to a certain standard, how they do it is up to them.
 
2018-04-16 07:37:47 PM  
since teachers only work 3/4 of the time their salary should be considered (x/3)4.... so 30k would really be 40k if they worked in a year round profession. IMO, we should really switch to year round school on a trimester system, teachers could work year round and students wouldn't get stupider after 3 months off.
 
2018-04-16 07:37:48 PM  

doglover: bigfire: doglover: bigfire: doglover: bigfire: I love trolling the MIL.  Her - Masters in early childhood education and associated student loans vs Me - two year college dropout with 0 student debt.  She's got 30+ years in and I still made 40k more than her last year with no degree.

Still blows her mind.

How

I have a high demand trade and work lots of overtime and holidays (900-1200 hours OT per year).  When I was an apprentice, I didn't make nearly as much base salary as she did.   She worked in a po-dunk school district in the Ohio valley.

Ohio

And now everything makes sense.

Ohio Valley - couple of states fit that description.  Looks like your geography teacher failed you or are you pre-disposed to dismiss any midwesterner?

Let's just say it's no coincidence the humans to travel the furthest from Earth were under the command of a man from Cleveland.

There's a hell of a lot of midwest, but only one place that serves chili on pasta.


Skycrime, I mean Skyline is NOT chili.  I can't figure out which product from Cinci was worse, Springer or Skyline.
 
2018-04-16 07:39:06 PM  
i.pinimg.comView Full Size
 
2018-04-16 07:44:36 PM  

Ignoramist: Oh for fark's sake.

Teachers are paid on salary, not by the hour. Like everyone else, their vacation pay is deducted and then paid out during vacation time. That's how every professional is paid, no different.  Annual salary is annual salary.

One big difference : their vacation comes in a huge chunk that's about 8 times longer than anyone else's, which is conducive to picking up a 2nd job.

Also, no child care expenses, because they are home when the kids are.


I can tell you that last point is 100% wrong.
 
2018-04-16 07:50:57 PM  

Explodo: If you can come up with a sure-fire scientific way of doing compensation based on performance that really works for teaching, I'd love to hear it.


Fark_Guy_Rob: .....The teachers unions negotiated a particular raise for another degree. So you get 2nd grade teachers getting raises for their 2nd masters degree in whatever......


We have a school district where the best and most committed teachers make the same as the teachers who "checked out" long ago and are nowhere to be found after the ring of the bell (but have the same credential and years of service).    A "pay for performance" system doesn't have to be perfect to be better than that system.      It also doesn't have to be based on student performance.   By now we surely know  a few things that "good teachers do".    Allow teachers to identify and select appropriate strategies and rate them on how well they carry them out.    If it isn't resulting in student growth or achievement, then the teacher is assisted in selecting different, potentially more effective strategies, and they're rated on how well they carry those out.
 
2018-04-16 07:52:36 PM  

DayBreakBoys: Ignoramist: Oh for fark's sake.

Teachers are paid on salary, not by the hour. Like everyone else, their vacation pay is deducted and then paid out during vacation time. That's how every professional is paid, no different.  Annual salary is annual salary.

One big difference : their vacation comes in a huge chunk that's about 8 times longer than anyone else's, which is conducive to picking up a 2nd job.

Also, no child care expenses, because they are home when the kids are.

I can tell you that last point is 100% wrong.


100% wrong?  The child and teacher parent are never home at the same time?  Maybe possible if the teacher parent is male, but most teachers are female, so I bet they are around for the birth at the very least.  And that would reduce the time away from the child to below 100% by some fraction.

Why are we letting teachers have children if they are NEVER around?!  That isnt good for the child at all!
 
2018-04-16 07:56:54 PM  

AmbassadorBooze: DayBreakBoys: Ignoramist: Oh for fark's sake.

Teachers are paid on salary, not by the hour. Like everyone else, their vacation pay is deducted and then paid out during vacation time. That's how every professional is paid, no different.  Annual salary is annual salary.

One big difference : their vacation comes in a huge chunk that's about 8 times longer than anyone else's, which is conducive to picking up a 2nd job.

Also, no child care expenses, because they are home when the kids are.

I can tell you that last point is 100% wrong.

100% wrong?  The child and teacher parent are never home at the same time?  Maybe possible if the teacher parent is male, but most teachers are female, so I bet they are around for the birth at the very least.  And that would reduce the time away from the child to below 100% by some fraction.

Why are we letting teachers have children if they are NEVER around?!  That isnt good for the child at all!


username checks out
 
2018-04-16 07:58:27 PM  

lando12310: since teachers only work 3/4 of the time their salary should be considered (x/3)4.... so 30k would really be 40k if they worked in a year round profession. IMO, we should really switch to year round school on a trimester system, teachers could work year round and students wouldn't get stupider after 3 months off.


Teaching is a full time job. My wife would be in by 7 and out around 4. 20 minutes for lunch.
And it's now 2 months off in the summer...school runs until the end of June now, and restarts before Labor day.
 
2018-04-16 08:06:25 PM  

Rent Party: teachers are going to biatch about it because *they don't want to be measured.*


In my experience, people who are good at what they do have little issue with being evaluated when 1) it results in being better compensated than their inferior coworkers and 2) when they believe the evaluation is sufficiently fair.
 
2018-04-16 08:11:04 PM  
I would think one of the more distressing parts of being a schoolteacher is watching your "babies" --- be they 1st-graders or high schoolers --- grow up and move along.

Or do I have that all wrong? Perhaps you're NOT supposed to be so fond of them that you'd hate to see them go (most of 'em, anyway). But, then you console yourself thinking of the next batch next year.
 
2018-04-16 08:13:47 PM  
Ah, so it's teacher bashing day AGAIN? Seriously. If you don't work in a school, you just have no clue. You hear what the board wants you to hear. Do you know that your Title 1 teachers are screwed out of full time hours and benefits by 15 mins. Per day? Or that you can be doing the job of someone else in the district and you are part time and they are full? Then lets talk about the kids who don't have a winter coat, or whose parents consistantly don't pack them a lunch. And you have to see that and try to deal with it? Or the fact that for many, the crappy food they get at school is the best they will get all day long? And lets talk about curriculum that is not teacher tested, but is implemented  regardless? And yeah, show a years growth for each student? Well, ya know, explain how you apply that to a kid identified as gifted..Good luck. And yes, some really excellent teachers are willing to work for peanut, but as my FIL used to say, by and large, you pay peanuts, ya get monkeys.
 
2018-04-16 08:14:01 PM  

lando12310: Reading and math abilities are easily tested and scored (quantifiable) it is the teachers job to get them to a certain standard, how they do it is up to them.


Learning is something that is not quantifiable. Not memorization, LEARNING.There is a difference.

Kid 1 has a photographic memory. Remembers words. Does will on tests, but if you ask them about the concepts behind what they read, they have very little clue. They simply regurgitate what they have seen because while they may remember the what, they do not know the why.

Kid 2 understands the concepts and can use them to solve other problems, but has no memory for words and facts and figures. Does poorly on tests, but when asked how and why something works can show you flawlessly.

Kid 1 memorized. Kid 2 learned. Most people are on the spectrum between these two extremes, and some go beyond. Do the teachers know what they are going to get every September, especially public school teachers? Teachers cannot make a person learn, nor can they teach 30 different ways for what could be 30 different types of humans. And what about the baggage some children may bring with them to school, baggage that interferes with their absorption of the material? What do teachers do about that?

Some things taught in life cannot be tested. Schools are not factories.
 
2018-04-16 08:18:42 PM  

DrBrownCow: 2) when they believe the evaluation is sufficiently fair.


THIS. If I were making things in a factory I would have control over what was produced. Can't do that with people. They come as they are. There are stories in these threads - usually in the ones about student debt - from people who did miserably in school only to blossom in college/university.

Can the people who want numbers and grades and evaluations for teachers explain this?
 
2018-04-16 08:24:10 PM  

Huck And Molly Ziegler: I would think one of the more distressing parts of being a schoolteacher is watching your "babies" --- be they 1st-graders or high schoolers --- grow up and move along.

Or do I have that all wrong? Perhaps you're NOT supposed to be so fond of them that you'd hate to see them go (most of 'em, anyway). But, then you console yourself thinking of the next batch next year.



Actually, that is one of the coolest parts of being in education. Seeing your students move on, that is the point. When they arrive at the next level, well prepared. Better than chocolate/bacon/coffee. Even better, when they come back a few years later and remind you of the one thing you did, that they remember..

CSB..I did a read aloud to a group of 5th graders..my first year in the library, we had a chapter a week..took us all school year to finish..A few years ago, I was doing a Living History presentation to a group of 8th graders, before they had their Washington trip..I had a student recognise me..from 3 yrs ago! I was in full Civil War regalia too...she mentioned the book, about a mouse, and a boy who drew (A Nest for Celeste)..That. Is what we live for. Priceless.
 
2018-04-16 08:25:50 PM  

Fano: tigerose: Ah, so it's teacher bashing day AGAIN? Seriously. If you don't work in a school, you just have no clue. You hear what the board wants you to hear. Do you know that your Title 1 teachers are screwed out of full time hours and benefits by 15 mins. Per day? Or that you can be doing the job of someone else in the district and you are part time and they are full? Then lets talk about the kids who don't have a winter coat, or whose parents consistantly don't pack them a lunch. And you have to see that and try to deal with it? Or the fact that for many, the crappy food they get at school is the best they will get all day long? And lets talk about curriculum that is not teacher tested, but is implemented  regardless? And yeah, show a years growth for each student? Well, ya know, explain how you apply that to a kid identified as gifted..Good luck. And yes, some really excellent teachers are willing to work for peanut, but as my FIL used to say, by and large, you pay peanuts, ya get monkeys.

Top. Shelf. Pussy.


Then I am a Top. Shelf. Queen.
 
2018-04-16 08:32:24 PM  

rewind2846: DrBrownCow: 2) when they believe the evaluation is sufficiently fair.

THIS. If I were making things in a factory I would have control over what was produced. Can't do that with people. They come as they are. There are stories in these threads - usually in the ones about student debt - from people who did miserably in school only to blossom in college/university.

Can the people who want numbers and grades and evaluations for teachers explain this?


Playing professional basketball is much more interesting than practicing basic drills.
 
2018-04-16 08:43:38 PM  
It boils down to those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Zero respect for the whiny biatches in the teaching profession.
 
2018-04-16 08:47:11 PM  
Degree is in Social Studies Education.  Really glad that circumstances forced me to abandon teaching.  My backup plan was IT and it's been working out for me ever since.  And, if network equipment gives me any backtalk, wr erase + reload.
 
2018-04-16 08:51:08 PM  

starsrift: I mean, you could spend time, energy, and university fees to be a teacher.
Or you could work your way up to assistant manager of a fast food franchise.
The pay is about the same.


Let's ignore fast food working conditions, rarely getting days off and always a chance of getting called in, regular weekend and evening hours, lack of retirement benefits, marginal health benefits, and so on.

Average salary for assistant fast food manager is 30k.   It varies quite a bit for teachers of course by school district, but in my large urban district that has both the best and worst performing schools in the state, the teachers fresh out of school make 40k and finish at just over 80k before they're 60.    Median household income is 50k and median house prices are 160k.   Wit ha few years of service they are making more than the household income of most of the students.  (Heck, two mid-career teachers who end up married have a household income of 140k and 3 times the median household income in their last few years of service.)  There's no need to "work up" to anything.   It's entirely possible to teach 3rd grade for the entire career with pay based on years of service and certain credentials.

If teachers weren't teaching, I would bet many of them would consider private community service non-profits (and not as assistant fast food managers).   In the direct-client services of those professions, where college degrees and certifications are also required, they will be greeted with far lower pay, a lack of funding they didn't believe was possible, no unionization, no retirement plan other than a social security and a 401(k) with a marginal match, long, unpredictable hours, an expectation of impossible outcomes with difficult populations, the prospect of working 25 years with no retirement in sight and still being paid barely more than a new hire, being called in on days off, no chunks of vacation, credentials and supplies on your own time and dime, and the job insecurity that comes along with grant funds and incompetent management.

That's not to say teachers shouldn't expect better because some people with similar credentials and more experience have it worse.   But, a social worker friend of mine said the things I wrote above and ended by saying it is hard for her to work up an enthusiastic show of sympathy for teachers.
 
2018-04-16 08:56:10 PM  

tigerose: .I had a student recognise me..from 3 yrs ago! I was in full Civil War regalia too...she mentioned the book, about a mouse, and a boy who drew (A Nest for Celeste)..That. Is what we live for. Priceless.


Wait until you're old and they recognize you from 50 years ago.

I see my kindergarten and first grade teachers all the time at the grocery store - they're 86 and 83 now and do their shopping together because at that age it's good to have a buddy when you go on the road. 

Pick a shopping buddy now so that you're not looking around for one in 2060.
 
2018-04-16 08:59:08 PM  

tigerose: Huck And Molly Ziegler: I would think one of the more distressing parts of being a schoolteacher is watching your "babies" --- be they 1st-graders or high schoolers --- grow up and move along.

Or do I have that all wrong? Perhaps you're NOT supposed to be so fond of them that you'd hate to see them go (most of 'em, anyway). But, then you console yourself thinking of the next batch next year.


Actually, that is one of the coolest parts of being in education. Seeing your students move on, that is the point. When they arrive at the next level, well prepared. Better than chocolate/bacon/coffee. Even better, when they come back a few years later and remind you of the one thing you did, that they remember..

CSB..I did a read aloud to a group of 5th graders..my first year in the library, we had a chapter a week..took us all school year to finish..A few years ago, I was doing a Living History presentation to a group of 8th graders, before they had their Washington trip..I had a student recognise me..from 3 yrs ago! I was in full Civil War regalia too...she mentioned the book, about a mouse, and a boy who drew (A Nest for Celeste)..That. Is what we live for. Priceless.


Super. I have great regard for and happy thoughts about nearly all my teachers. Except Mrs. Rhodes in 4th grade. She was arbitrary and capricious. (My Latin teacher in high school was, too, but by that time we had sort of figured out that's the way the world works.)
 
2018-04-16 09:01:02 PM  

bigfire: doglover: bigfire: doglover: bigfire: I love trolling the MIL.  Her - Masters in early childhood education and associated student loans vs Me - two year college dropout with 0 student debt.  She's got 30+ years in and I still made 40k more than her last year with no degree.

Still blows her mind.

How

I have a high demand trade and work lots of overtime and holidays (900-1200 hours OT per year).  When I was an apprentice, I didn't make nearly as much base salary as she did.   She worked in a po-dunk school district in the Ohio valley.

Ohio

And now everything makes sense.

Ohio Valley - couple of states fit that description.  Looks like your geography teacher failed you or are you pre-disposed to dismiss any midwesterner?


You should feel honored. Ohio is probably the classiest part of the Ohio Valley. He could have assumed you were from Kentucky or Pittsburgh.
 
2018-04-16 09:01:52 PM  
Most teachers actually give a fark about the future, can empathize with kids and respect other cultures.  They are educate, well trained and often have plenty of awesome mentors.  They are also experts in whatever field they teach in.
 
2018-04-16 09:03:19 PM  
bigfire is entirely self-taught.  such bootstraps!
 
2018-04-16 09:04:20 PM  
You would think having sex with students would be enough of a job perk.
 
2018-04-16 09:05:20 PM  
The public education system is hated by Republicans for many reasons.
 
2018-04-16 09:07:52 PM  

Begoggle: The public education system is hated by Republicans for many reasons.


From what I've read here, some don't even want educated professionals teaching at private or charter schools either.  weird.
 
2018-04-16 09:11:04 PM  

love_alice: Don't teachers get to retire after 20 years, with health care and full pension for the remainder of their lives?    Shouldn't that factor into the whole 'underpayment' argument?


LOL.
 
2018-04-16 09:11:50 PM  
I always ask anyone who complains about teacher's salaries, "If it's such a cushy job then why the fark aren't you doing it?"
 
2018-04-16 09:13:11 PM  

DrBrownCow: Average salary for assistant fast food manager is 30k. It varies quite a bit for teachers of course by school district, but in my large urban district that has both the best and worst performing schools in the state, the teachers fresh out of school make 40k and finish at just over 80k before they're 60.

[...]

That's not to say teachers shouldn't expect better because some people with similar credentials and more experience have it worse. But, a social worker friend of mine said the things I wrote above and ended by saying it is hard for her to work up an enthusiastic show of sympathy for teachers.


Oh, my goodness. 40k to maybe 80k by the time they retire, if they're lucky enough to not get stuck at a substitute teacher position before getting something tenure. After getting student loans and the whole shebang.

Well, sign me up for a new Ferrari.
 
2018-04-16 09:15:58 PM  

Diogenes: I thought about going into teaching.  But the whole idea of painting houses in the Florida summer heat seemed far too self-indulgent.  I'd feel like I was stealing money from the state.


I thought about teaching too but the pay plus the fact that there's not much you can do with a brat child made me change my mind.
 
2018-04-16 09:17:06 PM  

tigerose: Ah, so it's teacher bashing day AGAIN? Seriously. If you don't work in a school, you just have no clue. You hear what the board wants you to hear. Do you know that your Title 1 teachers are screwed out of full time hours and benefits by 15 mins. Per day? Or that you can be doing the job of someone else in the district and you are part time and they are full? Then lets talk about the kids who don't have a winter coat, or whose parents consistantly don't pack them a lunch. And you have to see that and try to deal with it? Or the fact that for many, the crappy food they get at school is the best they will get all day long? And lets talk about curriculum that is not teacher tested, but is implemented  regardless? And yeah, show a years growth for each student? Well, ya know, explain how you apply that to a kid identified as gifted..Good luck. And yes, some really excellent teachers are willing to work for peanut, but as my FIL used to say, by and large, you pay peanuts, ya get monkeys.


I'm not seeing the normal teacher-bashing I usually see on Fark at all, so I'm not sure which post you're referring to. I've recounted my experience more times than I probably should, but for those who haven't been introduced to me yet I left a high-paying corporate job in which I worked about 70 hours a week for a low-paying teaching job in which I work about 50 hours. I am on a committee to write curriculum, which helps me earn extra money and serves as my part-time job. I spend about 20 hours a week doing that for extra money.

I've never been happier in a job than I am teaching in my Title 1 district on the south side of Tucson. It's a rough district, but the students are amazing, and they're just happy to have teachers who believe in them and want to help them succeed.

The best part about teaching there is that these aren't the kind of parents who think their snowflakes do no wrong. If I make a call home or have a conference about misbehavior, I know that kid is going to be disciplined at home. It makes a big difference.

My friends who teach/taught in wealthier districts tell me horror stories about helicopter parents who try to get them fired if Johnny doesn't get an A. I've never had an experience like that. I make it a point to make positive phone calls, and it breaks my heart when a parent tells me they've never gotten good news from a school. I'm trying to change things from within instead of crapping all over people who are trying to make things better for the kids.

As for summer vacation, I work a lot during the school year so that I can travel during the summer. I like going to ballparks, so this summer my teacher friend and I are going to SF for Giants games, OAK for A's games, Anaheim for Angels games, MN for Twins games, and Milwaukee for Brewers games. I earn the hell out of my summers and try to reward myself for how hard I work during the school year. Our summer is only the end of May until the end of July anyway; I'm not sure where this 3 months off thing comes from.
 
2018-04-16 09:18:29 PM  

MNguy: bigfire is entirely self-taught.  such bootstraps!


What part of Trade or Apprentice did you miss?  I didn't fall into my job without study or development of skills.  I chose to drop outta of college as it wasn't for me.  I am glad I came to that realization sooner rather than later. Bootstrappy? You bet. My race was only .6% of the population where I used to live.
 
2018-04-16 09:24:08 PM  
TL:DR   When you've given up the the potential for the unknown in exchange for stability, you're going to fight for what you've been promised.

Teachers, particularly those starting out, don't just see friends off in the business making higher salaries, they realize they know exactly what they themselves will be making year after year.   Even where the teacher pay is good, they'll never get called into an office and hear their boss non-nonchalantly award them a five figure bonus.  Or, work and strategize into a half a million dollar salary.   By continuing to do what they do, teachers will never get assigned to project where they get paid to travel to different countries (unless they're taking 30 teenagers along).

No, they know what they'll make this year, next year, ten years in the future, and even what they'll make in retirement. In hindsight, many in business might have preferred more security, and many teachers would have done no better or even worse in the business world, but its different when it's all in front of you.  There is something about the predictability and lack of merit pay present in the teacher salary scale that violates aspects of American culture.
 
2018-04-16 09:24:27 PM  

bigfire: MNguy: bigfire is entirely self-taught.  such bootstraps!

What part of Trade or Apprentice did you miss?  I didn't fall into my job without study or development of skills.  I chose to drop outta of college as it wasn't for me.  I am glad I came to that realization sooner rather than later. Bootstrappy? You bet. My race was only .6% of the population where I used to live.


Hmm.  I bet you had a teacher.  I bet that teacher makes more than you.  Still salty?
 
2018-04-16 09:28:15 PM  

DrBrownCow: TL:DR   When you've given up the the potential for the unknown in exchange for stability, you're going to fight for what you've been promised.

Teachers, particularly those starting out, don't just see friends off in the business making higher salaries, they realize they know exactly what they themselves will be making year after year.   Even where the teacher pay is good, they'll never get called into an office and hear their boss non-nonchalantly award them a five figure bonus.  Or, work and strategize into a half a million dollar salary.   By continuing to do what they do, teachers will never get assigned to project where they get paid to travel to different countries (unless they're taking 30 teenagers along).

No, they know what they'll make this year, next year, ten years in the future, and even what they'll make in retirement. In hindsight, many in business might have preferred more security, and many teachers would have done no better or even worse in the business world, but its different when it's all in front of you.  There is something about the predictability and lack of merit pay present in the teacher salary scale that violates aspects of American culture.


Those are called unions and most workers would probably prefer them if they knew what they entailed
 
2018-04-16 09:32:30 PM  

DrBrownCow: starsrift: I mean, you could spend time, energy, and university fees to be a teacher.
Or you could work your way up to assistant manager of a fast food franchise.
The pay is about the same.

Let's ignore fast food working conditions, rarely getting days off and always a chance of getting called in, regular weekend and evening hours, lack of retirement benefits, marginal health benefits, and so on.

Average salary for assistant fast food manager is 30k.   It varies quite a bit for teachers of course by school district, but in my large urban district that has both the best and worst performing schools in the state, the teachers fresh out of school make 40k and finish at just over 80k before they're 60.    Median household income is 50k and median house prices are 160k.   Wit ha few years of service they are making more than the household income of most of the students.  (Heck, two mid-career teachers who end up married have a household income of 140k and 3 times the median household income in their last few years of service.)  There's no need to "work up" to anything.   It's entirely possible to teach 3rd grade for the entire career with pay based on years of service and certain credentials.

If teachers weren't teaching, I would bet many of them would consider private community service non-profits (and not as assistant fast food managers).   In the direct-client services of those professions, where college degrees and certifications are also required, they will be greeted with far lower pay, a lack of funding they didn't believe was possible, no unionization, no retirement plan other than a social security and a 401(k) with a marginal match, long, unpredictable hours, an expectation of impossible outcomes with difficult populations, the prospect of working 25 years with no retirement in sight and still being paid barely more than a new hire, being called in on days off, no chunks of vacation, credentials and supplies on your own time and dime, and the job insecurity that comes along with grant funds and incompetent management.

That's not to say teachers shouldn't expect better because some people with similar credentials and more experience have it worse.   But, a social worker friend of mine said the things I wrote above and ended by saying it is hard for her to work up an enthusiastic show of sympathy for teachers.


Sure... if they're actually getting raises. Unfortunately, since 07/08, most school districts around the country have been unable to give raises.  And the salary scale at my wife's district stops at 65k at 30 years.

I made that last year on my 5th year where I work. I've never received less than a 3.5% raise and I've never made less than 3k in bonuses. It's shameful.

/America's priorities are broken.
//teaching algebra for one year in NC was enough for me
///fear the slashies!
 
2018-04-16 09:32:42 PM  

MNguy: bigfire: MNguy: bigfire is entirely self-taught.  such bootstraps!

What part of Trade or Apprentice did you miss?  I didn't fall into my job without study or development of skills.  I chose to drop outta of college as it wasn't for me.  I am glad I came to that realization sooner rather than later. Bootstrappy? You bet. My race was only .6% of the population where I used to live.

Hmm.  I bet you had a teacher.  I bet that teacher makes more than you.  Still salty?


You're missing the point. The MIL is the twerkwaffle that thinks that the ONLY way to riches is via uni. I am happy for folks if they do what they like and make a living wage. As long as they do not feel like they had to get a degree no matter what. Teacher, Lawyer, Doctor, Dog groomer, whatever you are, enjoy. Just don't be a smug bastige because you decided to get a degree.
 
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