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(News4Jax)   Paid summer vacations, other stupid myths about public school teachers. You'll be glad you skipped that career in education   ( news4jax.com) divider line
    More: Obvious, teachers, High school, New York City, Education, Teacher, school-related activities teachers, public school teachers, United States  
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5824 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Apr 2018 at 5:50 PM (23 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2018-04-16 02:32:37 PM  
I thought they did it for the love of the kids.  How can we justify paying something to do what they love?

/So not serious
 
2018-04-16 04:37:37 PM  

TommyDeuce: I thought they did it for the love of the kids.  How can we justify paying something to do what they love?

/So not serious


Sadly I'm sure there are plenty in the GOP who feel this exact way.
 
2018-04-16 04:38:47 PM  
I thought the best part about being a teacher was the availability of the dating pool?
 
2018-04-16 04:44:56 PM  
I thought about going into teaching.  But the whole idea of painting houses in the Florida summer heat seemed far too self-indulgent.  I'd feel like I was stealing money from the state.
 
2018-04-16 05:51:55 PM  
When I was in college I honestly thought I would be a teacher, as it seemed like a good, respectable career.

I'm not saying it isn't, but I'm glad I found a career that isn't in education.
 
2018-04-16 05:52:52 PM  

TommyDeuce: I thought they did it for the love of the kids.  How can we justify paying something to do what they love?

/So not serious


so, teachers are objects now? that explains so much of nothing!

*chuckle*
 
2018-04-16 05:52:55 PM  
I applied for a school districr job last week. I'm looking forward to summers off, paid or not.
 
2018-04-16 05:54:00 PM  

Diogenes: I thought about going into teaching.  But the whole idea of painting houses in the Florida summer heat seemed far too self-indulgent.  I'd feel like I was stealing money from the state.


You could always mow lawns in the Florida summer heat too. I did that for a while. And painted houses.
 
2018-04-16 05:55:35 PM  
I left a career in business to go into education 3 years ago.  I damned sure didn't do it for the money.  I did it because I figured out that nothing and no one was going to change what is wrong in the deep south from the OUTSIDE.  So I went and got a MAT and became a teacher, now that my kids are out of school, so that I can help develop critical thinking skills and expose young people to the wider world through literature.  I don't regret it most days, but then again I live in a small town with a relatively small cost of living and a relatively high salary schedule for Arkansas.  I can't imagine trying to make a living while raising kids or dealing with the expense of living in a large city.
 
2018-04-16 05:59:37 PM  

brizzle365: TommyDeuce: I thought they did it for the love of the kids.  How can we justify paying something to do what they love?

/So not serious

so, teachers are objects now? that explains so much of nothing!

*chuckle*


Unintentional, and yet, I wouldn't put it past some of the folks attacking teachers.
 
2018-04-16 06:00:35 PM  
When my friends and I like to go out trolling at bars, I wear this for some good interactions-

img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2018-04-16 06:03:50 PM  
 
2018-04-16 06:06:00 PM  

TommyDeuce: I thought they did it for the love of the kids.  How can we justify paying something to do what they love?

/So not serious


Some teachers do love their students.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime​/​married-middle-school-teacher-arrested​-sex-teen-article-1.3848322

http://fox13now.com/2018/03/27/teache​r​-allegedly-performed-oral-sex-on-13-ye​ar-old-in-school-classroom/
 
2018-04-16 06:08:01 PM  
I love trolling the MIL.  Her - Masters in early childhood education and associated student loans vs Me - two year college dropout with 0 student debt.  She's got 30+ years in and I still made 40k more than her last year with no degree.

Still blows her mind.
 
2018-04-16 06:11:32 PM  
Meh, lots of people put in a lot of hours at crappy jobs for crappy pay. Teachers don't have a corner on that market. They do have a corner on whining about it though.
 
2018-04-16 06:12:01 PM  
stomping little white sweater
 
2018-04-16 06:12:46 PM  
I thought they got in it for the gun-play .
 
2018-04-16 06:12:55 PM  
My neighbor makes no bones about the fact that he got into teaching for the money and benefits (plus he enjoys it).

He was 30 back in the mid 80s and had a growing family and decided the factory job wouldn't cut it and that a teaching degree was the surest path to a good paying profession (he had credits from an earlier college stint).

He's been with a big district since day 1 and later got his masters, so he's pulling down close to 100k a year in those years he teaches summer school (time and a half / hr. based on salary).

He's well worth it by all accounts
 
2018-04-16 06:15:11 PM  

Teresaol31: I left a career in business to go into education 3 years ago.  I damned sure didn't do it for the money.  I did it because I figured out that nothing and no one was going to change what is wrong in the deep south from the OUTSIDE.  So I went and got a MAT and became a teacher, now that my kids are out of school, so that I can help develop critical thinking skills and expose young people to the wider world through literature.  I don't regret it most days, but then again I live in a small town with a relatively small cost of living and a relatively high salary schedule for Arkansas.  I can't imagine trying to make a living while raising kids or dealing with the expense of living in a large city.


Aren't you afraid that someone might notice what you're up to and burn a cross on your lawn?

/just asking.......
 
2018-04-16 06:16:52 PM  

bigfire: I love trolling the MIL.  Her - Masters in early childhood education and associated student loans vs Me - two year college dropout with 0 student debt.  She's got 30+ years in and I still made 40k more than her last year with no degree.

Still blows her mind.


How
 
2018-04-16 06:19:33 PM  
I'm a teacher who is going to have to work this summer, but it's cool because I would be bored to death hanging out around the house all summer and I can't afford to travel anywhere.

I know the cool kids on fark are into teacher bashing and all that, but most of us in the profession are out there giving it our best shot everyday.  We care about your kids and want to keep them safe.  I know I want the best for the kids I teach and interact with daily.

Today I made muffins and bread with some kids who have some pretty serious disabilities.  That might not sound like much until you factor in everything involved in a complex task such as baking.

We start with hand-washing and why we wash our hands.  I talk about food-borne illnesses and how we can prevent them.  We learn about cross-contamination and how to prevent it.  We learn the first rule of oven safety:  the stove and oven must always be turned off when you're done cooking, 100% of the time.

I teach with an eye toward making these kids competent cooks for both home and work.  I am not a chef by any means but people really like my cooking.  I know a lot of comfort food dishes and some southern dishes.  I make a nice loaf of bread.  I'm teaching them what I know how to make right now but I'm planning on taking more cooking classes to improve my program.   These guys are middle school and I hope to send them to high school ready for a culinary arts program.

My students learn to use a sharp knife safely.  They learn about cross-contamination.  They can tell you what gluten is and how it holds the bread together.  They can tell you all about yeast.  They are learning how to use a Kitchenaide professional mixer to knead dough and mix cookie batter.

On Muffin Monday, we make several dozen muffins for the teacher's lounge that get scarfed up quick.  They're that good.  Today we also made two loaves of bread that are going to be made into French toast.

We read recipes.  We use measuring spoons and cups accurately.  We're working on cracking eggs with only an occasional mess.

We also read about Perseus and the Medusa, counted money, and learned a little bit of Korean.

They pay me to be there, but they don't pay me to care.  I give that as a gift to the kids and the community.   All I really ask for is a decent salary and benefits.  It's also cool when we get the support we need from our communities, both monetary and morale.  Respect, that would be nice, too.
 
2018-04-16 06:22:53 PM  

doglover: bigfire: I love trolling the MIL.  Her - Masters in early childhood education and associated student loans vs Me - two year college dropout with 0 student debt.  She's got 30+ years in and I still made 40k more than her last year with no degree.

Still blows her mind.

How


I have a high demand trade and work lots of overtime and holidays (900-1200 hours OT per year).  When I was an apprentice, I didn't make nearly as much base salary as she did.   She worked in a po-dunk school district in the Ohio valley.
 
2018-04-16 06:23:05 PM  

bigfire: I love trolling the MIL.  Her - Masters in early childhood education and associated student loans vs Me - two year college dropout with 0 student debt.  She's got 30+ years in and I still made 40k more than her last year with no degree.

Still blows her mind.


That is the fundamental problem with education.  Teachers are damn near unique in that they feel they should get paid according to their level of education rather than the quality of their work.  "I have a masters degree so I should get X" vs "I'm a hobo but my students regularly excel in AP coursework and score high in the SATs."

Bring up things like standardized quality metrics for merit pay and they lose their farkin' minds.
 
2018-04-16 06:29:57 PM  

Rent Party: That is the fundamental problem with education.  Teachers are damn near unique in that they feel they should get paid according to their level of education rather than the quality of their work.  "I have a masters degree so I should get X" vs "I'm a hobo but my students regularly excel in AP coursework and score high in the SATs."

Bring up things like standardized quality metrics for merit pay and they lose their farkin' minds.


And there are plenty of higher education programs out there that cater to teachers.  Everyone involved knows they're just in trading money for a paper certificate; they all go through the motions.  The teachers unions negotiated a particular raise for another degree.  So you get 2nd grade teachers getting raises for their 2nd masters degree in whatever.
 
2018-04-16 06:30:22 PM  

bigfire: doglover: bigfire: I love trolling the MIL.  Her - Masters in early childhood education and associated student loans vs Me - two year college dropout with 0 student debt.  She's got 30+ years in and I still made 40k more than her last year with no degree.

Still blows her mind.

How

I have a high demand trade and work lots of overtime and holidays (900-1200 hours OT per year).  When I was an apprentice, I didn't make nearly as much base salary as she did.   She worked in a po-dunk school district in the Ohio valley.


Ohio

And now everything makes sense.
 
2018-04-16 06:33:31 PM  

Rent Party: Bring up things like standardized quality metrics for merit pay and they lose their farkin' minds.


Because students aren't all the same.  Schools aren't all the same.  The best teacher in town might choose to work in the worst school in town so they can feel like they're making a difference in the world and they really MIGHT be making the biggest difference.  Another teacher might be in a school filled with high-income kids who get nothing but a ton of one-on-one time with their parents from day one and have had au pairs and nannies and everything else their whole life.  That teacher might not have as big of an impact, but because testing shows that that school is better, that teacher gets paid more.  Yes, they could measure student progress, but that's also proven to be quite difficult to get right.  Maybe you have a group of kids come in where the parents of those students are all in denial that their kid is the problem and so the whole class suffers and you simply can't teach as much that year so you get less money in spite of actually trying harder.

If you can come up with a sure-fire scientific way of doing compensation based on performance that really works for teaching, I'd love to hear it.
 
2018-04-16 06:35:16 PM  
Oh for fark's sake.

Teachers are paid on salary, not by the hour. Like everyone else, their vacation pay is deducted and then paid out during vacation time. That's how every professional is paid, no different.  Annual salary is annual salary.

One big difference : their vacation comes in a huge chunk that's about 8 times longer than anyone else's, which is conducive to picking up a 2nd job.

Also, no child care expenses, because they are home when the kids are.
 
2018-04-16 06:36:45 PM  

Rent Party: bigfire: I love trolling the MIL. Still blows her mind.

Bring up things like standardized quality metrics for merit pay and they lose their farkin' minds.


blah blah 'judge a fish by how well they can climb' blah blah blah.  Heard that a million times.  That's why we're judging for tree climbers, they pay the bills.  The Arts are for hobbies and should be the rare major instead of the popular major in college.  STEM is dying and the arts are not going to pay the bills.
 
2018-04-16 06:40:35 PM  

doglover: bigfire: doglover: bigfire: I love trolling the MIL.  Her - Masters in early childhood education and associated student loans vs Me - two year college dropout with 0 student debt.  She's got 30+ years in and I still made 40k more than her last year with no degree.

Still blows her mind.

How

I have a high demand trade and work lots of overtime and holidays (900-1200 hours OT per year).  When I was an apprentice, I didn't make nearly as much base salary as she did.   She worked in a po-dunk school district in the Ohio valley.

Ohio

And now everything makes sense.


Ohio Valley - couple of states fit that description.  Looks like your geography teacher failed you or are you pre-disposed to dismiss any midwesterner?
 
2018-04-16 06:40:54 PM  

Skyking Skyking Do Not Answer: They can tell you what gluten is and how it holds the bread together.


But can they tell you how it kills?
 
2018-04-16 06:41:35 PM  

Explodo: Rent Party: Bring up things like standardized quality metrics for merit pay and they lose their farkin' minds.

Because students aren't all the same.  Schools aren't all the same.  The best teacher in town might choose to work in the worst school in town so they can feel like they're making a difference in the world and they really MIGHT be making the biggest difference.


If you don't have any way of measuring that, how the hell would you know if you're making a difference or not?  That is *exactly* the scenario where merit pay would be a massive benefit.

If you can come up with a sure-fire scientific way of doing compensation based on performance that really works for teaching, I'd love to hear it.

Baseline schools/districts every year and normalize the results to z-score.  Weight progress against each quartile.  You get more credit for moving the bottom of the stack than you do the top.   That's an incentive the "good" teachers to work to improve the lower performing kids, while not penalizing teachers that work with the smart ones.  And because you've normalized the curve, it's portable to any school.

The problem isn't coming up with measurements, it's that regardless of what measures you come up with, teachers are going to biatch about it because *they don't want to be measured.*
 
2018-04-16 06:42:09 PM  
In truth, we should do away with summer vacations and just have year-round schooling.  Still give the kids 2 week breaks in winter, spring, and summer, but the 3 month break is too long.
 
2018-04-16 06:43:14 PM  

Ignoramist: Oh for fark's sake.

Also, no child care expenses, because they are home when the kids are.



Fewer child care expenses. A high school teacher may be required to stay for after school activities and then go pick up their kids at the elementary school. You'll still be in for the "Y" after school, but you may be able to forgo the Y during the summer.
 
2018-04-16 06:46:37 PM  

Rent Party: The problem isn't coming up with measurements, it's that regardless of what measures you come up with, teachers are going to biatch about it because *they don't want to be measured.*


You've obviously made up your mind that teachers are shiftless leeches and I doubt I'll change that view.  I disagree with your assessment because you've reduced a very complex problem to a simple solution and hand-waved all of the middle parts away.
 
2018-04-16 06:48:16 PM  

scotchcrotch: When my friends and I like to go out trolling at bars, I wear this for some good interactions-

[img.fark.net image 211x239]


Ooh, that's good for some fist fights
 
2018-04-16 06:48:52 PM  

Fano: scotchcrotch: When my friends and I like to go out trolling at bars, I wear this for some good interactions-

[img.fark.net image 211x239]

Ooh, that's good for some fist fights


Or a paddlin'?
 
2018-04-16 06:50:11 PM  
A couple hints, subby. EVERY job is harder than it looks and EVERY job has shiatty things about it.
 
2018-04-16 06:51:56 PM  
Don't teachers get to retire after 20 years, with health care and full pension for the remainder of their lives?    Shouldn't that factor into the whole 'underpayment' argument?
 
2018-04-16 06:52:17 PM  

abhorrent1: Meh, lots of people put in a lot of hours at crappy jobs for crappy pay. Teachers don't have a corner on that market. They do have a corner on whining about it though.


"I HAVE TO BUY PENCILS!"
 
2018-04-16 06:54:06 PM  
I work for a school district so I am getting a kick.....

But really.. the kids are mostly great. Most parents and admin suck, some teachers and students do.

/Same holidays as Pounddawg Jr is awesome.
 
2018-04-16 07:05:54 PM  

pounddawg: I work for a school district so I am getting a kick.....

But really.. the kids are mostly great. Most parents and admin suck, some teachers and students do.

/Same holidays as Pounddawg Jr is awesome.


If it works for you, I'm happy for you.  I promise not to be a parent that sucks and my kids are not jackwagons.  If only I could talk the school board into not spending 75k on that new interior remodel for the school board conference room that's only 30'x18' and work on a 1-2% raise a year for you....
 
2018-04-16 07:06:03 PM  

thehobbes: Skyking Skyking Do Not Answer: They can tell you what gluten is and how it holds the bread together.

But can they tell you how it kills?


I'm working on gluten free recipes, for that set of people at the school.  I try to let people make their own decisions about what to eat, but I may have rolled my eyes a time or two in regard to the self-diagnosis of "gluten intolerant."  I mean, Celiac's is real, but it's a much smaller percentage of the population than Facebook or whatever might lead you to believe.
 
2018-04-16 07:06:29 PM  
I had a Trumper last summer try to tell me why it was okay that teachers did not make so much, because there just wasn't enough money to go around, and they did not provide the same value to society.  I asked him what he did, and he owns a company that repairs copying machines, and was pretty successful at it, and that the key to his success, he went on, was not paying too much for all the guys actually repairing machines.  His whole argument was wrapped around that he was special, because he owned a business, and so therefore deserved more, more, more, than anyone who actually helped him maintain that business. I told him that I hope the free market delivers a competitor that undercuts his prices and puts him out of business, and that he would deserve his fate, at the other guy would clearly be a better businessman.  He did not think that was fair.
 
2018-04-16 07:09:30 PM  

TommyDeuce: I thought they did it for the love of the kids. How can we justify paying something to do what they love?


Based on many Fark headlines, they're loving the kids just a bit too much if you ask me.
 
2018-04-16 07:09:48 PM  

bigfire: pounddawg: I work for a school district so I am getting a kick.....

But really.. the kids are mostly great. Most parents and admin suck, some teachers and students do.

/Same holidays as Pounddawg Jr is awesome.

If it works for you, I'm happy for you.  I promise not to be a parent that sucks and my kids are not jackwagons.  If only I could talk the school board into not spending 75k on that new interior remodel for the school board conference room that's only 30'x18' and work on a 1-2% raise a year for you....


Oh it's a model of inefficiency. Came from being self employed. I'm baffled by the administration at times.
 
2018-04-16 07:10:44 PM  

love_alice: Don't teachers get to retire after 20 years, with health care and full pension for the remainder of their lives?    Shouldn't that factor into the whole 'underpayment' argument?


You're thinking of cops and (paid) firefighters. Teachers usually have to put in around 30 years and be 55+ before they can retire. YMMV. Yes, they get a decent pension but nothing crazy. My parents were both teachers and their pensions came to around $2500/month in today's dollars. That and Social Security and various other retirement funds meant they did okay, and she also did okay after my dad died and his pension zeroed out.

The trouble comes when you start getting seriously old and frail, and then the money goes out as fast as it comes in. I managed to find her an insanely great deal on an assisted-living facility, but sooner or later she needed the nursing home and at 12+ grand a month, that will hoover up all but the fattest pensions.

Unlike the aforementioned cops and firefighters, teachers can't pad the shiat out of their overtime the last three years of their careers and wind up with a pension bigger than their base salary.

They're buying supplies for students like pencils, notebooks, tissues, books, lesson plans, technology and software, the study showed.

Or they're sticking parents with that cost. Teachers are generous but they're not chumps.

Educators in Oklahoma told CNN about working 2, 3 or even up to 6 jobs to make ends meet.

That sucks, but it's the far low end of the scale. The national median is in the $55-60k range. It's dishonest to argue that because Oklahoma teachers are getting screwed, all teachers need more money, including the ones in places like Connecticut that are making out quite well.
 
2018-04-16 07:11:43 PM  

brizzle365: so, teachers are objects now? that explains so much of nothing!


Everything is an object...

// public class teacher extends person
 
2018-04-16 07:13:36 PM  

abhorrent1: Meh, lots of people put in a lot of hours at crappy jobs for crappy pay. Teachers don't have a corner on that market. They do have a corner on whining about it though.


This. A couple of my closest friends are teachers, and they tend to think they have more stress than any other profession, and NEED the extended vacation time. I wouldn't argue that they have some unique aggravations working at a public school, but they really do seem to forget the rest of us have plenty of job stress and only get a few weeks off to recoup every year. Plus, they are retiring at 55, and, well... I'm certainly not.
 
2018-04-16 07:13:43 PM  

abhorrent1: Meh, lots of people put in a lot of hours at crappy jobs for crappy pay. Teachers don't have a corner on that market. They do have a corner on whining about it though.


I work as retail management. I put in 65 hours last week, paid for 45. I wish that wasn't an average week.
 
2018-04-16 07:13:49 PM  

love_alice: Don't teachers get to retire after 20 years, with health care and full pension for the remainder of their lives?    Shouldn't that factor into the whole 'underpayment' argument?


Not at full pension and benefits, no. The standard for full payment is 30 years. About 85% of those who attempt that fail to last that long. I lasted 29 years before my health broke.
 
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