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(MSNBC) NewsFlash Rumsfeld ordered terrorist suspect to be "hidden" from the Red Cross   ( divider line
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37500 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Jun 2004 at 7:16 PM (13 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»

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1319 Comments     (+0 »)

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2004-06-16 08:12:53 PM  
Forget it, Donny, you're out of your element.

/lebowski, yeah.
2004-06-16 08:13:30 PM  
yes, the US mistreating prisoners is a reason for a flamewar. what value is democracy if it doesn't insure that we have due process and some semblance of justice? people, good or bad, terrorist or petty thief, deserve the same treatment until a trial decides guilt and punishment. if we do not work to keep due process and above-the-board justice in the forefront of our war, we are no better than any of the countries we'd like to change. we'd be rich, fat, voting asshats with a vicious, ruthless government.
so suck it neocons.
2004-06-16 08:13:46 PM  
I love some of the excuses.

"well, Saddam did so and so!"

Great we're comparing ourselves to a brutal dictator. Hey we only killed a few towel heads, Saddam killed way more. That's some moral high ground we got there.

"Your defending the terrorists!"

Wrong. Mearly expecting the strongest and supposedly most democratic nation in the world to hold itself to higher standard than the "evil doers" we're fighting. See, leading is done by example. If we want the third world to embrace democracy and renounce violence as a means to an end, we have to show them how a civilized and democratic nation goes about things.

If we were so sure about what this guy is accused of, why wouldn't we let the Red Cross see him or keep him on the books?

Incompetants or out right liars?

The whole thing should disgust any American.
2004-06-16 08:13:47 PM  

Which party is notorious for wanting to strip the average american of his rights to firearms?

Yeah, you got them there... Democrats do tend towards favoring gun control. But which party is notorious for wanting to eliminate the other 9 Bill of Rights, by mixing church and state, eliminating free speech, eliminating all checks and balances on warrant-less searches and wiretaps, ignoring the right to a trial, etc?
2004-06-16 08:13:57 PM  
Ich, where did they get the help in developing nuclear power plants? the united states? who's watch? you know who. So if a nation only has one or two nukes thats ok? Fair enough. I guess Iran or syria or hey..Iraq having nukes is ok. My mistake. As far as sanctions in Iraq killing thousands, that is thanks to Saddam.. fark on
2004-06-16 08:14:10 PM  
Vote for George W. Bush: quite possibly not as brutal as Saddam Hussein.
2004-06-16 08:14:15 PM  
Let me get this straight... so because we're Americans, we deserve a lawyer and a trial if we're arrested. But if you're an Iraqi caught up in a warzone because that's where you live, you don't?! Bullshiat. 80% of the people we imprisoned over there were imprisoned under false pretenses! That's ok with you neocons? Oh yeah, denying other human beings that were unlucky enough to be born in that country their inalienable human rights is REAL fair.

I am a liberal. I do not condone terrorism, by us, or by them, but EVERYONE deserves a fair trial. The US cannot come and lock you up without giving you a valid reason! Oh wait, they can apparently! This world is farked.
2004-06-16 08:14:24 PM  
I love rumsfeld. f*ck the terrorist scum.................
2004-06-16 08:14:43 PM  
Say what you want about the neo-cons, you have to admire their total respect for the democratic process.

Shhhh. It's the liberals who hate America, remember? Modern Major General said so.
2004-06-16 08:14:57 PM  
sounds like the army's new slogan should be-
"We may be bastards, but at least we're better than Saddam and Kim..."

it's like someone kills an old lady for fun, and you stab an old lady during a robbery but she lives.

oh yeah...but you're so much better...
2004-06-16 08:15:06 PM  
Hoa: All my neighbors are ugly; I'll take my chances with the terrorists.
2004-06-16 08:15:20 PM  
[image from too old to be available]


DIdn't we already have this flamewar?

Earlier today?
2004-06-16 08:15:42 PM  
The soldiers (with the exception of the asshats that were torturing prisoners) have my backing.

I do *not* back this administration, their decisions or anythin else. Haven't we finally proven that there's a massive problem here?

How much more crap do we need coming up out of the toilet to realize that Bush and co are *corrupt* and bad for this country?
2004-06-16 08:15:46 PM  
amen, neomort.
2004-06-16 08:16:30 PM  
Love your Country
FEAR your government.
Revolution 2.0
2004-06-16 08:16:58 PM  
If Rummy ends up spending ther rest of his miserable life in a federal prison, getting anally raped by an HIV positive, crack-addicted, obese black man.... won't be punishment enough.

/Same for Ashcroft, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Grover Norquist, Doug Feith, Pearl, and why not....Bush!
2004-06-16 08:17:21 PM  
Bob from accounting

Syria, Iran, and Iraq do not have nuclear weapons.
2004-06-16 08:17:43 PM  
As long as there are Republicans who will vote for Bush just because he's got a little "R" in parenthesis next to his name, because what party the President belongs to is OBVIOUSLY more important than whether or not he's qualified for the task, they'll never come around.

/how's the job market in Canada?
2004-06-16 08:17:46 PM  
For all the Busheads who just don't get it:

Ever hear the expression, "Two wrongs don't make a right?" Let me illustrate.

Person A keys Person B's car. Person B beats the crap out of Person A. The cops show up. Who do they arrest?

Both of them.

Person A was wrong to key Person B's car, and Person B was wrong to assault Person A.

Why is this?

Because we are a nation of laws.

Translate this to the Iraq situation. Yes, it was wrong and horrible that Iraqi insurgents beheaded an American. It was a crime. But that does not justify our committing crimes against the Iraqis in turn. Furthermore, when we espouse our set of laws and assert that we are abiding by them, and then it turns out that we are not, that makes us hypocrites.

Furthermore, I recall a tremendous amount of outrage about the various atrocities committed against Americans. The news carried the images of the bodies hanging from the bridge, and it shocked all of us. Those events were flash points. On the other hand, the news about our own government's various crimes started out as a trickle and has gathered force. You hear about it more, today, not because of media focus on the issue, but rather because the events keep unfolding at a more rapid pace. Therefore, that news has remained CURRENT, whereas the news of the beheading and what-not has not. Yes, we all remember it, but the news media does not report the same story day for days, much less weeks, after the event has passed. This is what we call "timeliness".

In conclusion, if you truly believe that it is acceptable for the American government to secretly arrest people, never charge them with anything, hold them indefinitely, subject them to torture, and not inform the public of what is being done...and if all that you need for peace of mind is the assurance from the government that they are only using these powers against the assuredly guilty, and would never, ever use them against an innocent...then by all means, lobby Congress to publicly withdraw from the international treaties we've signed which forbid torture, and press for a Constitutional ammendment making torture legal for use against our own, criminals within our own country.

If that's what you really believe is good and right, however, then I think all of us would be right to question your patriotism, because you'd be a traitor to American ideals put forth by our Founding Fathers.
2004-06-16 08:17:47 PM  
Everything you suspected about the US Govt is true.
2004-06-16 08:17:56 PM  
2004-06-16 08:07:36 PM gfm

Did Clinton order an invasion and take over of the country?

You conservatives really need to find a new whipping boy. Blaming shiat on Clinton was cute back in 2000 and 2001, but now? Sad, man, just sad.

1. No, Clinton did not invade, but he did call in air strikes during the Lewinsky scandal.

2. I'm not conservative, I'm Libertarian.

2. I'm not blaming Clinton, I am pointing out that the "Bush lied" schtich isn't really an arguable point. People make it seem like Bush was the one to make up the fact that Iraq had WMDs. It was the CIA that said so, and they were saying so years before Bush came into office.
2004-06-16 08:18:07 PM  
Oh my GOD!! How DARE Donald Rumsfeld stand up to terrorist scum like this???? Donald might have hurt the terrorist's feelings!!! Terrorists are people too, ya know, and I'm sure they respect us as people, even though we are kuffar and that we must all die because we deeply offend Allah, according to wahabisit Islam. I think all of us Americans should simultaneously kill ourselves as to not offend Allah anymore, or at least become dhimmis with second-class citizenship. We must respect the Islamist's feelings. His religious beliefs about killing all infidels are beautiful and peaceful.
2004-06-16 08:18:12 PM  
Can someone name the last time a Kerry-bashing article was greenlighted at fark other than that one that slipped through the cracks today? This place is getting to be worse than I suppose as the election nears it'll only get worse here.
2004-06-16 08:18:48 PM  
I have to agree with neo mort. We may disagree on many things but oon htis we are united. The United States has no business suspending anyones right to a fair trial, regardless of the next guys actions. When the government does this, there is a legitimate sense of fear that this could happen at home. The Jose Pedilla case is a prime example. This isn't 18th century France. If you are being detained, you are obligated to have legal representation.
. McCain for President, to dream the impossible dream
2004-06-16 08:19:01 PM  
Those who are claiming that "these people are evil terrorists and deserve whatever they get": how do we know that? These people are being locked away, and all details about them are hidden.
2004-06-16 08:19:23 PM  
Methinks ArmadilloTamer is a troll as well.

This thread is entertaining.
2004-06-16 08:19:41 PM  
Hey Triaxis, do you want some cheese with your whine?
2004-06-16 08:20:47 PM  
Pentagon officials still insist Rumsfeld acted legally, but admit it all depends on how you interpret the law.

Sorta like how you define 'is' or 'sex', but this time without the Senate hearings because this is so much less heinous or illegal or just plain low than lying about a knobjob.
2004-06-16 08:20:50 PM  
Theseus, all wars end, some just take longer than others. I have no crystal ball. Alas, I do fear this is going to be a large, long and bloody one before it's over. And it's just the opening act's we're all witnessing.

I think once the ball was set into motion, there is no way to stop it until it runs it course. I am not a supporter of Rummy, I agree he should go. However, when I look at Kerry, I just can't see him running the show.

I can't think of anyone on the left that has the balls to be Secretary of Defense..sorry.
2004-06-16 08:20:54 PM  

You forgot to call us all "liberal bags of monkeycum".

Or is the Crystal Meth finally wearing off?
2004-06-16 08:20:55 PM  
Which party is notorious for wanting to strip the average american of his rights to firearms?

When the neo-cons strip away every right other than having a pee-shooter (in comparison to what the military has), having a gun is only going to make you a stand out for a sniper to put a bullet through your skull. Look at Iraq right now, the militants don't go running around too much with guns as they know to point a gun at our forces means being shot. Protect all the rights that the neo-cons want to take away, and you do the best thing to keep your next-to-worthless (against a modern tyranny that is) gun.
2004-06-16 08:20:56 PM  
Poor Girl,
As long as they don't shoot technicians running away in terror, I support them too.... I hate this war, but I support our troops....that's why I protested twice. And NeoMort, amen.
2004-06-16 08:21:16 PM  
i don't give a shiat if terrorists are offended.
but i'm not going to go off the deep end and torture them for spite, either.
get off that slippery slope.
2004-06-16 08:21:28 PM  
Lost in the system? That means he's dead right?
2004-06-16 08:21:41 PM  
ArmadilloTamer, read the farking article.

Rumsfeld's Justification: Keep prisoner off the books so the Red Cross doesn't know he's here, he's much too dangerous to interact with anyone besides interrogators.

:: Guards dutifully take him off the books ::

:: Pentagon "loses" said Really Dangerous Prisoner because he's not on file ::

So not only did Rumsfeld's actions violate the Geneva Convention, but his decisions were monumentally stupid.
2004-06-16 08:21:41 PM  
ICh, no they don't. At leats not to our knowledge. I'm not trying to come off as paranoid, just a skeptic. Did you know that part of the resolution of the Cuban missle crisis included an inspection of Cuba, to make sure there were no nukes? Castro never let the inspections occur...just sayin....
2004-06-16 08:21:43 PM  
shiat, why are we even keeping them? We should just behead prisoners! I mean, if the "Religon of Peace" does it, right? It must be all nicey-nicey then!

/Ticket to hell please
2004-06-16 08:21:53 PM  
[image from too old to be available]

"You go to war without wisdom, without thought for the good, and justify all wickedness done by those you believe to be your allies. Your hubris will be your downfall."
2004-06-16 08:21:55 PM  

Oh my GOD!! How DARE Donald Rumsfeld stand up to terrorist scum like this????

(1) You're assuming that the detainee is "terrorist scum". You don't know that. That's a big portion of the point.

(2) The remaining big portion of the point: How, exactly, is ordering that a detainee be hidden from the Red Cross "standing up" to that detainee? Please explain. Exactly. Thank you.
2004-06-16 08:22:01 PM  
Just seems like they a hell bent on undermining winning this thing.

oddly enough, i was just thinking the same thing about the bush administration.
2004-06-16 08:22:18 PM  

Oh my GOD!! How DARE Donald Rumsfeld stand up to terrorist scum like this????

You are missing the point. True Americans view the right to a fair trial as an INALIENABLE right. It says so right there in the Bill of Rights. That means it applies to all people, not just American citizens. Nobody (who is sane) is suggesting terrorists shouldn't be punished, we're just saying that they should be subject to normal legal process, not just labelled terrorists and locked away forever. That is the way of facism, not the way of a country founded on the idea of freedom.
2004-06-16 08:22:47 PM  
Gotta do it:
[image from too old to be available]
2004-06-16 08:22:58 PM  

Ridge and/or Ashcroft news conference tomorrow to distract us, I bet. Last time was "a mall in Ohio" -- this time I'm betting on threats against the trans-Alaska pipeline... or whatever else they can invent.

Nah... gotta be a battleground state. I'm thinking a nuke in the Florida keys. Sounds like an Arnold movie...
2004-06-16 08:23:03 PM  

Awwww. Its ok little-guy. You can go right ahead and bash Kerry right here and we'll watch. Ok? Go ahead, son, don't be shy.
2004-06-16 08:23:06 PM  
This place is getting to be worse than I suppose as the election nears it'll only get worse here.

You're right. I suppose we should ignore all the bad, bad shiat coming out of this adminstration lately just to appear fair. Nevermind that laws are being broken, or that we're all being lied to. It just looks so partisan to represent the facts! Goddamnit, why won't anyone discuss Clinton's blowjob!
2004-06-16 08:23:17 PM  
I love how the fascists like to accuse anyone who ISNT in support of our "president" of being on the side of terrorists, hoping troops die, hoping the US loses the war.

I also love how the Right has become the Dwindling Right. It must be scary to be in such a drastic minority. But wait, you're a bunch of fascists so you HATE minorities! What's it like to hate YOURSELVES?

*My views are not directed toward REAL conservatives who, like their liberal counterparts, believe in the Constitution, the American flag, and all things that they stand for. Just the fascist scumbag ones who blindly support the war and lash out at those who know better.
2004-06-16 08:23:25 PM  
but when the Justice Department issued legal advice to the DoD that said holding this prisoner in such a manner may be illegal, he was returned to Iraq and incarcerated at Abu Ghraib. Additionally, the official says "XXX" "got lost in the system" almost as soon as he was locked up at Abu Ghraib, and he wasn't interrogated again despite undergoing intense interrogation at the unknown location.


Now, call me pragmatic, but it sure sounds like they were attempting to stay within legal paramaters. They adhered to DoD legal advice, and we are suffering from it.

I would rate this a 10 on the overreaction-meter.
2004-06-16 08:23:29 PM  

I think once the ball was set into motion, there is no way to stop it until it runs it course. I am not a supporter of Rummy, I agree he should go. However, when I look at Kerry, I just can't see him running the show.

So, rather than take the chance that he could run the show, you're going to stick with someone who has demonstrated that he cannot?
2004-06-16 08:23:36 PM  

Can someone name the last time a Kerry-bashing article was greenlighted at fark other than that one that slipped through the cracks today?

Can anyone name the last time Kerry ordered that a detainee be hidden from the Red Cross?
2004-06-16 08:24:26 PM  
Befuddled 2nd amendment was just an example, to say the neo-cons are out to take away all our rights is a bit outrageous. Please provide examples. And as the quote goes" which amndment is most important? 1st? no 2nd, with a gun in your hand, you can say whatever you want" just sayin
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