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(MSN)   In news you will never hear come from the United States, Canadian doctors are protesting their own raises and think they are being paid too much   ( msn.com) divider line
    More: Strange, salary increases, Health care, recent salary increases, Medicine, medical students, Quebec doctors, health, letter  
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3066 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Mar 2018 at 10:20 AM (19 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2018-03-07 09:46:45 AM  
God damnit, Canada...stop tempting me to move there.  It's too cold!
 
2018-03-07 09:59:57 AM  
I know a few Canadian doctors, a couple I even like, and I can not see any of them say this EVER.
 
2018-03-07 10:20:50 AM  

guestguy: God damnit, Canada...stop tempting me to move there.  It's too cold!


I mean, Vancouver is more like Seattle, right?  Vancouver seems nice....
 
2018-03-07 10:25:28 AM  
Seems legit
 
2018-03-07 10:26:04 AM  
500 hundred out of how many?
 
2018-03-07 10:28:12 AM  

sno man: I know a few Canadian doctors, a couple I even like, and I can not see any of them say this EVER.


They're not really saying that they are getting too much, they're saying that the nurses are getting too little. If the nurses get upset at lousy pay, the doctors are worried they will have to do some work and/or more than superficial patient interaction.
 
2018-03-07 10:30:04 AM  
I was going to make a crack about knowing when to shut up but I can't. That's very honourable conduct. I am impressed. I hope they are successful in getting those resources reapplied where they're more needed.

/stop making the rest of us look bad Canada
 
2018-03-07 10:31:11 AM  
Another piece of news you won't read in America is This.

Stop peddling socialism as if the politicians can run things better than Jedi.
 
2018-03-07 10:31:13 AM  

big pig peaches: 500 hundred out of how many?


Just under 20k in Quebec.
 
2018-03-07 10:32:19 AM  
In news you will never hear come from the United States, Canadian doctors are protesting their own raises and think they are being paid too much

I think I just heard it, and it came from the United States.  Canadian logic.
 
2018-03-07 10:33:02 AM  

guestguy: God damnit, Canada...stop tempting me to move there.  It's too cold!


Did you read WHY they're protesting? Sounds like the health care system is buckling under the strain.
 
2018-03-07 10:36:12 AM  
You can go to medical school there for $2,500 a year??
 
2018-03-07 10:36:26 AM  
Interesting stuff here. The average primary care and specialist pay quoted in the article is actually pretty good and would be competitive most anywhere in America despite all the biatching I hear from my peers about how we'd have to take a massive paycut in a Canadian system.

The other fun thing to note is that about 45% of the signatures were med students and residents who are typically not paid and grossly underpaid, respectively.
 
2018-03-07 10:37:15 AM  
Just so you know, after you take out the costs of school, licensing, and insurance , you're probably not going to be making six figures for the first few decades of your life, and you will work 80 hours a week.
And we're facing a shortage now, since the job pretty much sucks. The patient load is getting larger, there is more incentive to minimize time with each patient, and compensations are way down.

The whole "rich doctor" thing is a myth now.
 
2018-03-07 10:38:24 AM  

jjorsett: guestguy: God damnit, Canada...stop tempting me to move there.  It's too cold!

Did you read WHY they're protesting? Sounds like the health care system is buckling under the strain.


Luckily ours is tip top shape since we just choose exclude a large portion of our population from being able to get access to routine care.
 
2018-03-07 10:39:45 AM  

ChuckRoddy: The whole "rich doctor" thing is a myth now.


From what I understand, it is the specialists that are making bank.
 
2018-03-07 10:40:10 AM  

jjorsett: guestguy: God damnit, Canada...stop tempting me to move there.  It's too cold!

Did you read WHY they're protesting? Sounds like the health care system is buckling under the strain.


More poor allocation than buckling, but good try though.
 
2018-03-07 10:40:12 AM  

jjorsett: guestguy: God damnit, Canada...stop tempting me to move there.  It's too cold!

Did you read WHY they're protesting? Sounds like the health care system is buckling under the strain.


The system is collapsing, it'll be completely unfunded in about a year and all the hospitals are being turned into Volvo dealerships.
 
2018-03-07 10:43:19 AM  

Occam's Disposable Razor: Interesting stuff here. The average primary care and specialist pay quoted in the article is actually pretty good and would be competitive most anywhere in America despite all the biatching I hear from my peers about how we'd have to take a massive paycut in a Canadian system.

The other fun thing to note is that about 45% of the signatures were med students and residents who are typically not paid and grossly underpaid, respectively.


There was one of them on tv a few weeks ago who said he was ashamed of the money he was going to make when the rest of the hospital staff is being told to suck it up and work double shifts.

Also, for many of them,  the argument is "don't increase my rate per [consultation | test | prescription | operation ], increase the support staff and equipment so that I can do more of them".
 
2018-03-07 10:48:35 AM  

DeadpoolNakago: ChuckRoddy: The whole "rich doctor" thing is a myth now.

From what I understand, it is the specialists that are making bank.


This.  I know a married couple who are both specialized anesthesiologists, they are clearing 7 figures.
 
2018-03-07 10:49:08 AM  
Quebecois, not really that shocking. They are massive socialists.

Also, Quebec does not represent Canada as a whole. Not even close.
 
2018-03-07 10:51:54 AM  
Did they apologize for protesting their raise?
 
2018-03-07 10:52:30 AM  

YodaForce: Another piece of news you won't read in America is This.

Stop peddling socialism as if the politicians can run things better than Jedi.


That's way worse than having no access to necessary care.
 
2018-03-07 10:52:58 AM  
Do you understand percentages?
 
2018-03-07 10:56:20 AM  
Nice troll subz!
 
2018-03-07 10:57:34 AM  
The U.S. doctor who operated on my burst appendix (happened on a business trip) laughed at how little Canadian doctors made.  He had a summer home on the Cayman islands.
Then again, IIRC our doctor's malpractice insurance fees are a lot lower than the U.S. due to Canada being less litigious than the U.S.
 
2018-03-07 10:58:24 AM  

sno man: I know a few Canadian doctors, a couple I even like, and I can not see any of them say this EVER.


THIS.

My uncle trained as a doctor in Canada and he immigrated to the US first chance he got because in part, the money was much better.  And he was right, it was the absolute right move to make.
 
2018-03-07 10:58:46 AM  

guestguy: God damnit, Canada...stop tempting me to move there.  It's too cold!


Ya but the Quebec health care and nurse shortage is pretty f$cked up.  Quebec has gone a bit too far down the socialism path and needs to pull back before the go European PIGGS.
 
2018-03-07 10:59:30 AM  

YodaForce: Another piece of news you won't read in America is This.

Stop peddling socialism as if the politicians can run things better than Jedi.


Actually those issues were mentioned in the article too.  What I thought was being highlighted was a sense of Civic responsibility.
 
2018-03-07 11:00:22 AM  

sno man: I know a few Canadian doctors, a couple I even like, and I can not see any of them say this EVER.


On average Canadian doctors get paid about 30% less than their American counter-parts.  Bonus is that Malpractice insurance premiums are only 10% of what doctors pay.  Second bonus: the doctors don't have to deal with insurance companies
 
2018-03-07 11:00:28 AM  
Quebec only eh?

Is there a Québécois or independence angle here not reported in the story?
 
2018-03-07 11:03:38 AM  

YodaForce: Another piece of news you won't read in America is This.

Stop peddling socialism as if the politicians can run things better than Jedi.


average these wait times for elective procedures:

US:
Patient A, 6 weeks
Patient B, 8 weeks
Patient C, ineligible

Canada
Patient A: 8 weeks
Patient B, 9 weeks
Patient C, 8 weeks
 
2018-03-07 11:04:33 AM  

Somacandra: Quebec only eh?

Is there a Québécois or independence angle here not reported in the story?


No.  The separatist movement is mostly dead.  Mostly.
 
2018-03-07 11:04:41 AM  

mrshowrules: sno man: I know a few Canadian doctors, a couple I even like, and I can not see any of them say this EVER.

On average Canadian doctors get paid about 30% less than their American counter-parts.  Bonus is that Malpractice insurance premiums are only 10% of what doctors pay.  Second bonus: the doctors don't have to deal with insurance companies


I'm moving to another state and have to purchase "tail coverage" through my malpractice insurer to cover against any patients who may want to sue me after I've changed jobs. I've never had a claim against me, and it will cost $29k. Upfront, no installments, after taxes, not deductible, not covered by former or new employer. That's after paying them monthly premiums on time every month that I've been in practice.

Our insurance system is farked up badly.
 
2018-03-07 11:05:05 AM  

mrshowrules: sno man: I know a few Canadian doctors, a couple I even like, and I can not see any of them say this EVER.

On average Canadian doctors get paid about 30% less than their American counter-parts.  Bonus is that Malpractice insurance premiums are only 10% of what doctors pay.  Second bonus: the doctors don't have to deal with insurance companies


Hmmm... if the subsidized medical school thing is also a factor, it's actually not a bad deal at all.

A GP (general practicioner) in the US could come out of med school and be picked up by an HMO and be paid 150k, but have 200k or more in med school tuition debt.

Money might not be as lucrative in the long term especially if you are in a good medical speciality, but short term right after medical school, maybe a decade out... in Canadian doctor's favor?
 
2018-03-07 11:08:28 AM  
You can't see it but my jaw just dropped open and nearly hit my shoes in astonishment. I've not heard of any Dr. refusing a pay raise for any reason. At least here in the US.

Now I have, often heard, of medical institutions paying their secondary staff, like Nurses, Aids and Orderlies so low that they need to work second jobs. Actually, in the US, I would not recommend anyone work in these fields in a hospital unless for training in a better career in medicine.
 
2018-03-07 11:10:45 AM  

basicstock: Then again, IIRC our doctor's malpractice insurance fees are a lot lower than the U.S. due to Canada being less litigious than the U.S.


Yes Americans are more litigious (in general) but that doesn't account for the huge difference in medical malpractice insurance.  Canadian doctors pay only 10% of what US doctors pay for malpractice insurance.

This is also a byproduct of a single-payer system.  Taking some of the profit drivers out of the system (i.e. private insurance) results in more being done based on the interests of the patients.  Less malpractice and less people likely to sue.

Imagine if you re-privatised fire department services and everyone bought fire services insurance, you would end up with a shiat ton more lawsuits.
 
2018-03-07 11:12:11 AM  

Occam's Disposable Razor: mrshowrules: sno man: I know a few Canadian doctors, a couple I even like, and I can not see any of them say this EVER.

On average Canadian doctors get paid about 30% less than their American counter-parts.  Bonus is that Malpractice insurance premiums are only 10% of what doctors pay.  Second bonus: the doctors don't have to deal with insurance companies

I'm moving to another state and have to purchase "tail coverage" through my malpractice insurer to cover against any patients who may want to sue me after I've changed jobs. I've never had a claim against me, and it will cost $29k. Upfront, no installments, after taxes, not deductible, not covered by former or new employer. That's after paying them monthly premiums on time every month that I've been in practice.

Our insurance system is farked up badly.


Ouch.  I've never heard of tail insurance.  Name seems appropriate on a few levels.
 
2018-03-07 11:14:01 AM  

jjorsett: guestguy: God damnit, Canada...stop tempting me to move there.  It's too cold!

Did you read WHY they're protesting? Sounds like the health care system is buckling under the strain.


It is. Management are overpaid and try to fund new initiatives to drive productivity up while maintaining the staffing levels.
 
2018-03-07 11:14:41 AM  

Rik01: You can't see it but my jaw just dropped open and nearly hit my shoes in astonishment. I've not heard of any Dr. refusing a pay raise for any reason. At least here in the US.

Now I have, often heard, of medical institutions paying their secondary staff, like Nurses, Aids and Orderlies so low that they need to work second jobs. Actually, in the US, I would not recommend anyone work in these fields in a hospital unless for training in a better career in medicine.


A friend of mine graduated from nursing here in Canada back in the mid-80s.  There were several U.S. hospitals recruiting Canadian graduates with offers of signing bonuses, free moving expenses, higher salaries and longer vacations.  I wonder if they still do the same thing with current Canadian graduates.
 
2018-03-07 11:17:09 AM  

sno man: jjorsett: guestguy: God damnit, Canada...stop tempting me to move there.  It's too cold!

Did you read WHY they're protesting? Sounds like the health care system is buckling under the strain.

More poor allocation than buckling, but good try though.


Yep, and the Titanic would have remained afloat if they had just redistributed those deck chairs.
 
2018-03-07 11:20:02 AM  

SirEattonHogg: sno man: I know a few Canadian doctors, a couple I even like, and I can not see any of them say this EVER.

THIS.

My uncle trained as a doctor in Canada and he immigrated to the US first chance he got because in part, the money was much better.  And he was right, it was the absolute right move to make.


Smart. Get the taxpayer to subsidize your education, then fark off to hoard your money.
 
2018-03-07 11:20:38 AM  

YodaForce: Another piece of news you won't read in America is This.

Stop peddling socialism as if the politicians can run things better than Jedi.


I'm not totally disagreeing with you, but the name "Fraser Institute" twigged something in my memory, so I went to look it up. Wiki says it's been called politically conservative and libertarian.

Here's a CBC link that I think generally says the same trend, but less scare tactic-y. CIHI is considered a bit more neutral. http://www.cbc.ca/news/healt​h/wait-tim​es-cihi-commonwealth-1.3984920

I don't agree with the assertion that electronic medical records are the problem, though. It's still straight-up lack of doctors/nurses, IMO.

Also here in America I can surely see my doctor in a day or two, but I think I'd prefer to wait if it meant I knew my neighbors could also see a doctor. At all.
 
2018-03-07 11:21:22 AM  
When someone comments you have a chance to vote the comment either "smart"  or "funny"
Can we now add a "you are a complete idiot" option to the vote?
 
2018-03-07 11:22:21 AM  

mrshowrules: Occam's Disposable Razor: mrshowrules: sno man: I know a few Canadian doctors, a couple I even like, and I can not see any of them say this EVER.

On average Canadian doctors get paid about 30% less than their American counter-parts.  Bonus is that Malpractice insurance premiums are only 10% of what doctors pay.  Second bonus: the doctors don't have to deal with insurance companies

I'm moving to another state and have to purchase "tail coverage" through my malpractice insurer to cover against any patients who may want to sue me after I've changed jobs. I've never had a claim against me, and it will cost $29k. Upfront, no installments, after taxes, not deductible, not covered by former or new employer. That's after paying them monthly premiums on time every month that I've been in practice.

Our insurance system is farked up badly.

Ouch.  I've never heard of tail insurance.  Name seems appropriate on a few levels.


I have an uncle that designed municipal lighting systems for sports fields and the like, he got nailed with a similar insurance thing when he retired in Ontario. Similar amount too.
 
2018-03-07 11:22:32 AM  

guestguy: God damnit, Canada...stop tempting me to move there.  It's too cold!


They don't want you there .
 
2018-03-07 11:29:23 AM  

mrshowrules: guestguy: God damnit, Canada...stop tempting me to move there.  It's too cold!

Ya but the Quebec health care and nurse shortage is pretty f$cked up.  Quebec has gone a bit too far down the socialism path and needs to pull back before the go European PIGGS.


He US will likely go PIGGS before Canada. You know with our trillion dollar deficits.
 
2018-03-07 11:30:34 AM  

SirEattonHogg: A GP (general practicioner) in the US could come out of med school and be picked up by an HMO and be paid 150k, but have 200k or more in med school tuition debt.


And they have special loans designed to ensnare them in even more debt with no money down and allowances for "Jumbo mortgage loans. "

https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/per​s​onal-finance/the-doctor-mortgage-loan/​
 
2018-03-07 11:31:18 AM  

SirEattonHogg: sno man: I know a few Canadian doctors, a couple I even like, and I can not see any of them say this EVER.

THIS.

My uncle trained as a doctor in Canada and he immigrated to the US first chance he got because in part, the money was much better.  And he was right, it was the absolute right move to make.


I know of a few that did that and came back. The malpractice insurance and billing headaches punched the pay advantage in the pills. It seems to work out for some, but definitely not all.
 
2018-03-07 11:32:50 AM  

guestguy: God damnit, Canada...stop tempting me to move there.  It's too cold!


you'll get quicker treatment in a US hospital. Why would you want to put yourself in that situation??
 
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