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(Gizmodo)   The MIT study claiming Uber drivers make $3 an hour was flawed and incorrect? Unpossible   ( gizmodo.com) divider line
    More: Followup, Uber, Minimum wage, median Uber driver, Uber drivers subreddit, median wages, Uber's Craigslist, fact Uber, Wage  
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5107 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Mar 2018 at 8:20 AM (32 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2018-03-07 07:29:37 AM  
And the study's author agreed and re-ran the data and provided a range of $8.55-$10....in areas where the median income is $15.

As Motherboard noted, the discrepancy can be explained by a number of factors, including variable price structure between cities and how drivers calculate vehicular expenses, though also by the fact Uber keeps referring to average wages while the MIT study reported median wages.

Now why would Uber be using the average vs the median I wonder?
 
2018-03-07 07:49:35 AM  
So not quite as shiatty as we were told, but still pretty shiatty.

And, as I noted in the previous thread, this is with Uber subsidizing an estimated 50% of the cost of every fare already. Cut that subsidy and fares will double or driver revenues will drop dramatically. And, of course, it's all based on a system of flouting existing regulations and consumer safeguards.

Tell me again why this shiatty company is worth $60 billion to investors?
 
2018-03-07 07:54:16 AM  

pueblonative: And the study's author agreed and re-ran the data and provided a range of $8.55-$10....in areas where the median income is $15.

As Motherboard noted, the discrepancy can be explained by a number of factors, including variable price structure between cities and how drivers calculate vehicular expenses, though also by the fact Uber keeps referring to average wages while the MIT study reported median wages.

Now why would Uber be using the average vs the median I wonder?


Can't think of a reason.....

But genuinely, median might be a fairer measure in some cases.
 
2018-03-07 07:59:18 AM  

Gubbo: pueblonative: And the study's author agreed and re-ran the data and provided a range of $8.55-$10....in areas where the median income is $15.

As Motherboard noted, the discrepancy can be explained by a number of factors, including variable price structure between cities and how drivers calculate vehicular expenses, though also by the fact Uber keeps referring to average wages while the MIT study reported median wages.

Now why would Uber be using the average vs the median I wonder?

Can't think of a reason.....

But genuinely, median might be a fairer measure in some cases.


Apparently my sarcasm meter is off.
But yeah, average income allows a few outliers to skew the results upwards and presents a much prettier picture than median (aka the Bill Gates/Warren Buffett effect)
 
2018-03-07 08:01:55 AM  

pueblonative: Gubbo: pueblonative: And the study's author agreed and re-ran the data and provided a range of $8.55-$10....in areas where the median income is $15.

As Motherboard noted, the discrepancy can be explained by a number of factors, including variable price structure between cities and how drivers calculate vehicular expenses, though also by the fact Uber keeps referring to average wages while the MIT study reported median wages.

Now why would Uber be using the average vs the median I wonder?

Can't think of a reason.....

But genuinely, median might be a fairer measure in some cases.

Apparently my sarcasm meter is off.
But yeah, average income allows a few outliers to skew the results upwards and presents a much prettier picture than median (aka the Bill Gates/Warren Buffett effect)


No it was working. I'm just working on my first coffee and while I read what you wrote, my brain didn't want to process it.
 
2018-03-07 08:12:02 AM  
Use Lyft.
 
2018-03-07 08:21:57 AM  
img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2018-03-07 08:23:14 AM  

BalugaJoe: Use Lyft.


6 is no good? How about half a dozen?
 
2018-03-07 08:24:05 AM  
But MIT
 
2018-03-07 08:27:26 AM  

pueblonative: And the study's author agreed and re-ran the data and provided a range of $8.55-$10....in areas where the median income is $15.

As Motherboard noted, the discrepancy can be explained by a number of factors, including variable price structure between cities and how drivers calculate vehicular expenses, though also by the fact Uber keeps referring to average wages while the MIT study reported median wages.

Now why would Uber be using the average vs the median I wonder?


In this context, average might be more meaningful. If hours worked isn't constant, median has balance issues unless it's hour-weighted.
 
2018-03-07 08:30:50 AM  

pueblonative: And the study's author agreed and re-ran the data and provided a range of $8.55-$10....in areas where the median income is $15.

As Motherboard noted, the discrepancy can be explained by a number of factors, including variable price structure between cities and how drivers calculate vehicular expenses, though also by the fact Uber keeps referring to average wages while the MIT study reported median wages.

Now why would Uber be using the average vs the median I wonder?


Because who really cares about whether you can feed your 1.7 children?
 
2018-03-07 08:33:58 AM  
The fact that Uber doesn't advertise to get riders, but instead only advertises to get drivers tells me that it's not a great job.  Not a lot of businesses run commercials looking for workers.
 
2018-03-07 08:35:52 AM  

Rapmaster2000: The fact that Uber doesn't advertise to get riders, but instead only advertises to get drivers tells me that it's not a great job.  Not a lot of businesses run commercials looking for workers.


Pish tosh, my good man - just check out any branch of the Golden Arches near you and you will clearly see their proud message "Billions and billions of burger-flippers exploited".
 
2018-03-07 08:36:23 AM  
Is there an actual reason why cab companies haven't adjusted their business models to get competitive?
 
2018-03-07 08:36:50 AM  

Farking Clown Shoes: So not quite as shiatty as we were told, but still pretty shiatty.

And, as I noted in the previous thread, this is with Uber subsidizing an estimated 50% of the cost of every fare already. Cut that subsidy and fares will double or driver revenues will drop dramatically. And, of course, it's all based on a system of flouting existing regulations and consumer safeguards.

Tell me again why this shiatty company is worth $60 billion to investors?


Chasing yield.

There is no ROI in the world right now.

It's the same reason the market is up like crazy, and the treasury yields aren't going up. Lots of money. Nowhere to go.
 
2018-03-07 08:37:24 AM  

Rapmaster2000: The fact that Uber doesn't advertise to get riders, but instead only advertises to get drivers tells me that it's not a great job.  Not a lot of businesses run commercials looking for workers.


Not ones that you're going to want to base long term careers on, anyway

/fark the side hustle economy
//and the gig economy too
///shorthand for, "shiatty pay and benefits and you take all the risk"
 
2018-03-07 08:37:52 AM  

Farking Clown Shoes: So not quite as shiatty as we were told, but still pretty shiatty.

And, as I noted in the previous thread, this is with Uber subsidizing an estimated 50% of the cost of every fare already. Cut that subsidy and fares will double or driver revenues will drop dramatically. And, of course, it's all based on a system of flouting existing regulations and consumer safeguards.

Tell me again why this shiatty company is worth $60 billion to investors?


Because they are trying to maintain a market share while holding on long enough to get self-driving cars, at which point they will be able to turn a profit. No one is expecting Uber to be profitable as a human driver service company. If self-driving car legislation ends up taking a decade, investors will lose patience and we will see Uber rates start to climb.
 
2018-03-07 08:39:26 AM  

pueblonative: Rapmaster2000: The fact that Uber doesn't advertise to get riders, but instead only advertises to get drivers tells me that it's not a great job.  Not a lot of businesses run commercials looking for workers.

Not ones that you're going to want to base long term careers on, anyway

/fark the side hustle economy
//and the gig economy too
///shorthand for, "shiatty pay and benefits and you take all the risk"


Anyone banking on a career as an Uber driver has probably already made other more life-crippling decisions.
 
2018-03-07 08:40:34 AM  

Rapmaster2000: The fact that Uber doesn't advertise to get riders, but instead only advertises to get drivers tells me that it's not a great job.  Not a lot of businesses run commercials looking for workers.


It is also very MLM like where they pay drivers bonuses for recruiting more drivers. It doesn't sound like a very good idea to recruit your own competition but I'm sure your facebook page has many doing just that for some amazing new business opportunity.
 
2018-03-07 08:47:08 AM  
Took an Uber to a bar on Sunday.  I always chat with the drivers about their experiences.  This guy says he makes about $12/hr when it's all said and done.
 
2018-03-07 08:50:09 AM  
Here's a simpler overview of the situation:

1. Anyone can tailor survey results to match a forgone conclusion.
2. Corporations attempt to profit and the welfare of their employees is of little consequence in the boardroom.
3. Murica
 
2018-03-07 08:51:05 AM  

GoldSpider: Is there an actual reason why cab companies haven't adjusted their business models to get competitive?


Probably because they've realized that it's not possible to compete with a business that's willing to lose billions of dollars every year.
 
2018-03-07 08:51:14 AM  

GoldSpider: Is there an actual reason why cab companies haven't adjusted their business models to get competitive?


Got a few hours?
 
2018-03-07 08:51:26 AM  
Cash tips?
 
2018-03-07 08:51:56 AM  

GoldSpider: pueblonative: Rapmaster2000: The fact that Uber doesn't advertise to get riders, but instead only advertises to get drivers tells me that it's not a great job.  Not a lot of businesses run commercials looking for workers.

Not ones that you're going to want to base long term careers on, anyway

/fark the side hustle economy
//and the gig economy too
///shorthand for, "shiatty pay and benefits and you take all the risk"

Anyone banking on a career as an Uber driver has probably already made other more life-crippling decisions.


Anecdotal, but most of the drivers I've talked to have spouses with benefits, and they drive for Uber because of the part-time, flexible hours.  This is also what many of the Sam's Club, BJ's, Walmart, Target employees I've talked to tell me.  Very few of any of these people look at those jobs as 'careers', they supplementing an existing household income with easy work time.

Contrary to what I read here, many of them think they're getting the better end of the deal.
 
2018-03-07 08:52:26 AM  

Zeb Hesselgresser: Took an Uber to a bar on Sunday.  I always chat with the drivers about their experiences.  This guy says he makes about $12/hr when it's all said and done.


Guy thinks he makes $12/hr. Odds that he is correctly calculating his true cost of doing business?
 
2018-03-07 08:56:05 AM  
TFA is misleading.  This wasn't a completed published work intended to be the definitive study on the economics of ride sharing, but a working draft released specifically for the purposes of soliciting feedback.  The author is gathering new data and revising the paper but this is still very much a work in progress.  ATM they are going with some new assumptions provided by Uber's chief economist but that is not the final word.

Science, how does it work?
 
2018-03-07 08:57:44 AM  

GoldSpider: Is there an actual reason why cab companies haven't adjusted their business models to get competitive?


It's easier just to sit in your idle car and biatch on Fark that Uber has demeaned the noble taxi driver profession
 
2018-03-07 08:59:42 AM  

GoldSpider: Is there an actual reason why cab companies haven't adjusted their business models to get competitive?


Because cab companies can't subsidize each ride with venture capital.

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/ar​t​icle/9a3vye/uber-true-cost-uh-oh
"Uber passengers were paying only 41% of the actual cost of their trips; Uber was using these massive subsidies to undercut the fares and provide more capacity than the competitors who had to cover 100% of their costs out of passenger fares."

https://www.fastcompany.com/4026256/i​n​vestors-are-paying-2-billion-per-year-​to-subsidize-your-uber-ride
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ube​r​-must-raise-fares-and-do-5-more-things​-to-survive-2017-06-22

Uber has not figured out a way to make money.  VC loves it because it's "disruptive", but their patience isn't limitless.  Now, Uber is saying that they'll get rid of drivers completely which means that they're going to be a cab company without human drivers.  That's not their current business model.  I don't understand why anyone is investing in a company with an unprofitable business model in the hopes that technology will advance to the point that they'll change to a profitable business model, but then I'm not a VC guy.
 
2018-03-07 09:01:04 AM  
I love how the commercials portray working for Uber as "getting your side hustle on". Last checked, having a job isn't a "hustle".

\unless you work for the government?
 
2018-03-07 09:02:19 AM  

Zeb Hesselgresser: GoldSpider: pueblonative: Rapmaster2000: The fact that Uber doesn't advertise to get riders, but instead only advertises to get drivers tells me that it's not a great job.  Not a lot of businesses run commercials looking for workers.

Not ones that you're going to want to base long term careers on, anyway

/fark the side hustle economy
//and the gig economy too
///shorthand for, "shiatty pay and benefits and you take all the risk"

Anyone banking on a career as an Uber driver has probably already made other more life-crippling decisions.

Anecdotal, but most of the drivers I've talked to have spouses with benefits, and they drive for Uber because of the part-time, flexible hours.  This is also what many of the Sam's Club, BJ's, Walmart, Target employees I've talked to tell me.  Very few of any of these people look at those jobs as 'careers', they supplementing an existing household income with easy work time.

Contrary to what I read here, many of them think they're getting the better end of the deal.


Except they don't have flexible hours. At least, not if they want to make money. If they want to make money they have to work when and where the demand is.
 
2018-03-07 09:03:29 AM  

aninconvenienterection: Zeb Hesselgresser: Took an Uber to a bar on Sunday.  I always chat with the drivers about their experiences.  This guy says he makes about $12/hr when it's all said and done.

Guy thinks he makes $12/hr. Odds that he is correctly calculating his true cost of doing business?


That's exactly what they're not doing.  http://newsroom.aaa.com/tag/d​riving-co​st-per-mile/

It's easy to put revenue in your hand and say "I made this $12 in only 1 hour of work".  I 100% believe that many Uber drivers think they are making $12/hr.  And yet driver turnover is 96%.
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/20/only-​4​-percent-of-uber-drivers-remain-after-​a-year-says-report.html

It's a golden age, people.  Enjoy sucking up VC money while you can. I'm going to ride this Uber train as long as I can.
 
2018-03-07 09:08:54 AM  

Persnickety: TFA is misleading.  This wasn't a completed published work intended to be the definitive study on the economics of ride sharing, but a working draft released specifically for the purposes of soliciting feedback.  The author is gathering new data and revising the paper but this is still very much a work in progress.  ATM they are going with some new assumptions provided by Uber's chief economist but that is not the final word.

Science, how does it work?


img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2018-03-07 09:11:42 AM  
My guess: Hanging around the suburbs where it's 45 minutes between fares, you make jack shiat. Hustling in a big city from 4-7 and again when the bars close, you can do okay.

Am I close?
 
2018-03-07 09:12:27 AM  

ColonelCathcart: Farking Clown Shoes: So not quite as shiatty as we were told, but still pretty shiatty.

And, as I noted in the previous thread, this is with Uber subsidizing an estimated 50% of the cost of every fare already. Cut that subsidy and fares will double or driver revenues will drop dramatically. And, of course, it's all based on a system of flouting existing regulations and consumer safeguards.

Tell me again why this shiatty company is worth $60 billion to investors?

Chasing yield.

There is no ROI in the world right now.

It's the same reason the market is up like crazy, and the treasury yields aren't going up. Lots of money. Nowhere to go.


Dumb money invests in what it sees and uses. It doesn't matter if the company's balance sheet is crap.
 
2018-03-07 09:12:47 AM  

MythDragon: I love how the commercials portray working for Uber as "getting your side hustle on". Last checked, having a job isn't a "hustle".


It's not Uber's fault if you still believe being an Uber driver is a full-time job in spite of their advertising.

Rapmaster2000: Because cab companies can't subsidize each ride with venture capital.


That's a fair point.
 
2018-03-07 09:14:30 AM  
Gubbo:   Except they don't have flexible hours. At least, not if they want to make money. If they want to make money they have to work when and where the demand is.

I'm not one to call someone I just met a liar.  So, I'm really left with a choice of believing you (random internet commenter) who would like to speak for a HUGE group of people or the actual people who look me in the eye and answer my questions.

While I have no doubt that there are people who fit your profile of them, wouldn't you have to be a fool to believe there aren't people who fit mine?  Not all Walmarts, not all Uber markets.

Worlds a big place, people have vastly different needs and wants.
 
2018-03-07 09:16:28 AM  

Tex570: ColonelCathcart: Farking Clown Shoes: So not quite as shiatty as we were told, but still pretty shiatty.

And, as I noted in the previous thread, this is with Uber subsidizing an estimated 50% of the cost of every fare already. Cut that subsidy and fares will double or driver revenues will drop dramatically. And, of course, it's all based on a system of flouting existing regulations and consumer safeguards.

Tell me again why this shiatty company is worth $60 billion to investors?

Chasing yield.

There is no ROI in the world right now.

It's the same reason the market is up like crazy, and the treasury yields aren't going up. Lots of money. Nowhere to go.

Dumb money invests in what it sees and uses. It doesn't matter if the company's balance sheet is crap.


*wants to invest
 
2018-03-07 09:17:21 AM  

ColonelCathcart: Chasing yield.

There is no ROI in the world right now.

It's the same reason the market is up like crazy, and the treasury yields aren't going up. Lots of money. Nowhere to go.


This reminds me of the summer of 2008 when oil went up to $160 a barrel.  That was the best (and maybe only) place to make money.  Six months later it fell to less than $50.
 
2018-03-07 09:18:40 AM  

Zeb Hesselgresser: I'm not one to call someone I just met a liar.


It's not a lie, if you believe it.
 
2018-03-07 09:21:33 AM  

ColonelCathcart: Farking Clown Shoes: So not quite as shiatty as we were told, but still pretty shiatty.

And, as I noted in the previous thread, this is with Uber subsidizing an estimated 50% of the cost of every fare already. Cut that subsidy and fares will double or driver revenues will drop dramatically. And, of course, it's all based on a system of flouting existing regulations and consumer safeguards.

Tell me again why this shiatty company is worth $60 billion to investors?

Chasing yield.

There is no ROI in the world right now.

It's the same reason the market is up like crazy, and the treasury yields aren't going up. Lots of money. Nowhere to go.


I have a bank account that is lonely and would like the company.
 
2018-03-07 09:22:59 AM  

Zeb Hesselgresser: Gubbo:   Except they don't have flexible hours. At least, not if they want to make money. If they want to make money they have to work when and where the demand is.

I'm not one to call someone I just met a liar.  So, I'm really left with a choice of believing you (random internet commenter) who would like to speak for a HUGE group of people or the actual people who look me in the eye and answer my questions.

While I have no doubt that there are people who fit your profile of them, wouldn't you have to be a fool to believe there aren't people who fit mine?  Not all Walmarts, not all Uber markets.

Worlds a big place, people have vastly different needs and wants.


No problem. And I'm sure that it's very easy to make money driving people to places if you aren't going to be where people need.

Like you said, it's a big world.
 
2018-03-07 09:26:48 AM  

ColonelCathcart: It's the same reason the market is up like crazy, and the treasury yields aren't going up. Lots of money. Nowhere to go.


Sure wouldn't want to raise wages so people start buying more crap and thus increasing business, nope that would be insanity! Better keep dumping cash into an entire industry trying to wait out the clock until self-driving cars become an actual reality which may or may not be anywhere from next month to next decade to never!

Soooo many venture capitalist ideas coming out of Silicon Valley these days are pretty much predicated on removing labor as a cost, with little regard for what that actually will mean for our society as it is currently comprised.
 
2018-03-07 09:30:44 AM  

Farking Clown Shoes: So not quite as shiatty as we were told, but still pretty shiatty.

And, as I noted in the previous thread, this is with Uber subsidizing an estimated 50% of the cost of every fare already. Cut that subsidy and fares will double or driver revenues will drop dramatically. And, of course, it's all based on a system of flouting existing regulations and consumer safeguards.

Tell me again why this shiatty company is worth $60 billion to investors?


Because it's cheaper than taxis who charge 2-3 times as much for the exact same service.
 
2018-03-07 09:45:08 AM  

Murkanen: Farking Clown Shoes: So not quite as shiatty as we were told, but still pretty shiatty.

And, as I noted in the previous thread, this is with Uber subsidizing an estimated 50% of the cost of every fare already. Cut that subsidy and fares will double or driver revenues will drop dramatically. And, of course, it's all based on a system of flouting existing regulations and consumer safeguards.

Tell me again why this shiatty company is worth $60 billion to investors?

Because it's cheaper than taxis who charge 2-3 times as much for the exact same service.


No, that.is why consumers use Uber.  ATM Uber is losing money hand over fist.  The question is: Why is Uber attractive to investors?
 
2018-03-07 09:45:33 AM  

Murkanen: Farking Clown Shoes: So not quite as shiatty as we were told, but still pretty shiatty.

And, as I noted in the previous thread, this is with Uber subsidizing an estimated 50% of the cost of every fare already. Cut that subsidy and fares will double or driver revenues will drop dramatically. And, of course, it's all based on a system of flouting existing regulations and consumer safeguards.

Tell me again why this shiatty company is worth $60 billion to investors?

Because it's cheaper than taxis who charge 2-3 times as much for the exact same service.


But by charging so much less they are losing billions a year.
 
2018-03-07 09:46:02 AM  

Rapmaster2000: Not a lot of businesses run commercials looking for workers.


I hear ads for workers fairly frequently - typically in the light manufacturing field.

But then much of my work is conducted on construction sites. A place where you can still find people who listen exclusively to commercial radio (either the local country or classic rock stations).
 
2018-03-07 09:48:59 AM  

Farking Clown Shoes: So not quite as shiatty as we were told, but still pretty shiatty.

And, as I noted in the previous thread, this is with Uber subsidizing an estimated 50% of the cost of every fare already. Cut that subsidy and fares will double or driver revenues will drop dramatically. And, of course, it's all based on a system of flouting existing regulations and consumer safeguards.

Tell me again why this shiatty company is worth $60 billion to investors?


Because the service beats taxis by a mile in every area I've ever used it? Seriously, if you want to wait 45 minutes for a Taxi in Cleveland, go ahead and get a Taxi. Oh, hope you don't mind the flat rate to the airport that Uber/Lyft undercuts by HALF!

http://www.clevelandairport.com/parki​n​g-transportation/taxis
 
2018-03-07 09:52:58 AM  
Most of the Uber and other ride sharing jobs are advertised as "side hustles", a part-time job to pick a few extra bucks for necessities or niceties as desired.  The living wage argument is invalid for a large number of drivers.
 
2018-03-07 09:53:52 AM  

sex_and_drugs_for_ian: Rapmaster2000: Not a lot of businesses run commercials looking for workers.

I hear ads for workers fairly frequently - typically in the light manufacturing field.

But then much of my work is conducted on construction sites. A place where you can still find people who listen exclusively to commercial radio (either the local country or classic rock stations).


Yeah, on sports radio I frequently hear an ad for the local pipefitters union which actually sounds like a decent gig for an 18 year-old.  So that's a fair critique, but the local pipefitters union is promising a lot more than a "side-hustle".
 
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