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(Forbes)   Could dark matter not be a particle at all? It wouldn't be the wackiest thing ever   ( forbes.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, dark matter, General relativity, Universe, Big Bang, matter power spectrum, dark energy, normal matter, Galaxy  
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1777 clicks; posted to Geek » on 03 Mar 2018 at 1:28 PM (20 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2018-03-03 10:17:31 AM  
The only reason that physicists think that dark matter is a particle is because particles are all they have.
 
2018-03-03 10:28:01 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: The only reason that physicists think that dark matter is a particle is because particles are all they have.


Yups.  Dark matter is actually a planck-scale defect in the fabric of space, a whirl, a knot.  Because it bends space, it has the affect of gravity.  But like everything else, 'dark matter' is not completely stable.  When it unknots it relinquishes its microscopic gravity -> dark energy.

/isn't this obvious?
// ;)
 
2018-03-03 01:35:38 PM  
Your blog sucks. What is "a particle" anyway?
 
2018-03-03 01:43:57 PM  
Eddie's in the spacetime continuum .
Wot's he doing there?
 
2018-03-03 01:47:19 PM  
Is this the place where non-physicists come in and say "dark matter's clearly nonsense, maybe gravity just doesn't work the way you think it does, have you thought of that?"?

It's usually pretty safe to assume that if you, a non-expert in the field, have thought of something then the experts have thought of it too...
 
2018-03-03 01:47:19 PM  
It's pretty obvious the universe is a simulation thats in the beta stage of development and dark matter/energy is some fudging of the numbers to make the simulation work. The production release will be less buggy.

/kidding
 
2018-03-03 01:49:13 PM  

Rising Ape: Is this the place where non-physicists come in and say "dark matter's clearly nonsense, maybe gravity just doesn't work the way you think it does, have you thought of that?"?

It's usually pretty safe to assume that if you, a non-expert in the field, have thought of something then the experts have thought of it too...


So, fark.com? Yes, you are, in fact, on fark.com. check the address in your browser if unsure. You're welcome friend.
 
2018-03-03 01:52:49 PM  
Has anyone else noticed the welter of science/space-related articles from Forbes and Business Insider?  Is that because space is now a for-profit industry?
 
2018-03-03 01:57:51 PM  

Rising Ape: Is this the place where non-physicists come in and say "dark matter's clearly nonsense, maybe gravity just doesn't work the way you think it does, have you thought of that?"?

It's usually pretty safe to assume that if you, a non-expert in the field, have thought of something then the experts have thought of it too...


Because matter sucks?

/Or is it just the Higgs boson?
//never cross a Higgs field to avoid situations of gravity
 
2018-03-03 02:03:12 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: The only reason that physicists think that dark matter is a particle is because particles are all they have.


How are particle physicists going to get funding if they say they want to research something which isn't a particle? No particles, no dinero egghead.
 
2018-03-03 02:14:13 PM  

pup.socket: Your blog sucks. What is "a particle" anyway?


A fundamental element of matter that cannot be divided.

There, was it really that hard?

/"matter" gets funny when you start talking about force-carrier particles.
 
2018-03-03 02:19:58 PM  

Rising Ape: Is this the place where non-physicists come in and say "dark matter's clearly nonsense, maybe gravity just doesn't work the way you think it does, have you thought of that?"?

It's usually pretty safe to assume that if you, a non-expert in the field, have thought of something then the experts have thought of it too...


This. They assume that dark matter exists because without it, basic stuff like E=mc2doesn't work. It would require a completely different understanding of physics to eliminate the possibility of matter we simply can't detect directly (a concept that is apparently too much for some people here to grasp.) We will need new math...which, BTW, they have been trying. They haven't come up with a new model that explains the universe as well as the Standard Model does.
 
2018-03-03 02:20:37 PM  
Is it my imagination or are the only science articles green-lit on the Forbes site?
 
2018-03-03 02:36:53 PM  

dionysusaur: Has anyone else noticed the welter of science/space-related articles from Forbes and Business Insider?  Is that because space is now a for-profit industry?


At some point Forbes decided to become a blogging platform.  The articles you're seeing are from "Starts with a Bang", a blog run by an astrophysicist who has nothing to do with Steve Forbes or the dead-tree magazine.

Yes, this is confusing.
 
2018-03-03 02:45:05 PM  

LoneWolf343: pup.socket: Your blog sucks. What is "a particle" anyway?

A fundamental element of matter that cannot be divided.

There, was it really that hard?

/"matter" gets funny when you start talking about force-carrier particles.


now tell us about alpha particles
 
2018-03-03 02:58:05 PM  

spacechecker: It's pretty obvious the universe is a simulation thats in the beta stage of development and dark matter/energy is some fudging of the numbers to make the simulation work. The production release will be less buggy.

/kidding


Sounds reasonable to me.  I hope the release version gets rid of that "cruelty" glitch.  That is one farked up mistake.
 
2018-03-03 03:06:58 PM  

LoneWolf343: They assume that dark matter exists because without it, basic stuff like E=mc2doesn't work


Actually it all stems from someone adding up the mass of galaxies and comparing them to their rotational dynamics.  Galaxies should spin apart, but do not.  This could be explained by matter we cannot see.  But it could also be explained by space time shrinking in some spots while it expands overall.
 
2018-03-03 03:07:43 PM  

LoneWolf343: pup.socket: Your blog sucks. What is "a particle" anyway?

A fundamental element of matter that cannot be divided.

There, was it really that hard?

/"matter" gets funny when you start talking about force-carrier particles.


Maybe it was easy, but it is completely wrong.
 
2018-03-03 03:15:12 PM  

Vlad_the_Inaner: LoneWolf343: pup.socket: Your blog sucks. What is "a particle" anyway?

A fundamental element of matter that cannot be divided.

There, was it really that hard?

/"matter" gets funny when you start talking about force-carrier particles.

now tell us about alpha particles


Alpha particles bend *this* way, beta particles bend *that* way, amirite?
 
2018-03-03 03:17:24 PM  

UsikFark: Vlad_the_Inaner: LoneWolf343: pup.socket: Your blog sucks. What is "a particle" anyway?

A fundamental element of matter that cannot be divided.

There, was it really that hard?

/"matter" gets funny when you start talking about force-carrier particles.

now tell us about alpha particles

Alpha particles bend *this* way, beta particles bend *that* way, amirite?


Almost, unless they are beta+ particles, which also bend *this* way.
 
2018-03-03 03:26:14 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: LoneWolf343: They assume that dark matter exists because without it, basic stuff like E=mc2doesn't work

Actually it all stems from someone adding up the mass of galaxies and comparing them to their rotational dynamics.  Galaxies should spin apart, but do not.  This could be explained by matter we cannot see.  But it could also be explained by space time shrinking in some spots while it expands overall.


There is the collision in the Bullet Cluster that solidifies the theory that there is something unseen producing gravity.
img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2018-03-03 03:57:46 PM  
So it's a field that doesn't vibrate?
 
2018-03-03 04:00:01 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: LoneWolf343: They assume that dark matter exists because without it, basic stuff like E=mc2doesn't work

Actually it all stems from someone adding up the mass of galaxies and comparing them to their rotational dynamics.  Galaxies should spin apart, but do not.  This could be explained by matter we cannot see.  But it could also be explained by space time shrinking in some spots while it expands overall.


Sound like the solution that someone who believes in C-decay would think up...
 
2018-03-03 04:10:57 PM  

JasonOfOrillia: So it's a field that doesn't vibrate?


It has a continuously variable quantum value as opposed to everything else that has jumps between values
 
2018-03-03 04:27:30 PM  

pup.socket: Your blog sucks. What is "a particle" anyway?


A particle is a localized excitation/vibration of a quantum field. Just as a Higgs particle is an excitation of the Higgs field, an individual electron is an excitation of the "electron field" that permeates the universe. That excitation appears as a particle or a wave depending on how you look at it.

/quantum field theory
//not a physicist
///thinks dark matter/energy is probably real
 
2018-03-03 04:35:12 PM  

LoneWolf343: Marcus Aurelius: LoneWolf343: They assume that dark matter exists because without it, basic stuff like E=mc2doesn't work

Actually it all stems from someone adding up the mass of galaxies and comparing them to their rotational dynamics.  Galaxies should spin apart, but do not.  This could be explained by matter we cannot see.  But it could also be explained by space time shrinking in some spots while it expands overall.

Sound like the solution that someone who believes in C-decay would think up...


I'm trying to understand the amount of contraction required to (a) counteract the current expansion, and (b) create the gravitational effects needed to balance the equations.  The border between expansion and contraction would be really interesting.
 
2018-03-03 04:52:49 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: The only reason that physicists think that dark matter is a particle is because particles are all they have.


No.It has to be turtles..Turtles all the way down...
 
2018-03-03 05:33:20 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: LoneWolf343: They assume that dark matter exists because without it, basic stuff like E=mc2doesn't work

Actually it all stems from someone adding up the mass of galaxies and comparing them to their rotational dynamics.  Galaxies should spin apart, but do not.  This could be explained by matter we cannot see.  But it could also be explained by space time shrinking in some spots while it expands overall.


I think it was Fritz Zwicky and the Coma Cluster of galaxies.
 
2018-03-03 05:46:25 PM  

eyeq360: Fritz Zwicky and the Coma Cluster


Franz Zwicky and the Coma Cluster is the name of my vegetative state swing band
 
2018-03-03 09:37:57 PM  
Nah, it's a particle.  Just one big particle for the whole universe.  They don't all have to be small, you know.
 
2018-03-03 10:34:36 PM  

Rising Ape: Is this the place where non-physicists come in and say "dark matter's clearly nonsense, maybe gravity just doesn't work the way you think it does, have you thought of that?"?

It's usually pretty safe to assume that if you, a non-expert in the field, have thought of something then the experts have thought of it too...


"Dark matter" and "dark energy" are clearly REAL in some sense - we know certain things about them, we can predict them, we can observe their effects. But we don't have a quantum to point to, we don't have any direct observation of the things themselves, and we still know very little about them.

What they are is still up in the air for this reason, and any physicist who insists we know they have a quantum or that we know all the laws and rules and structures of space is made a fool of by this gap. This is what amateurs get caught up on, and what this article does well of dealing with, which is we still don't know everything about physics and dark matter and dark energy are gaping holes in our knowledge.

Yes, they are experts, but they don't know and haven't discovered everything. Admitting ignorance and saying what you know and don't know is a necessary first step to knowledge. Many experts have forgotten this somewhere along the line, and knit themselves in circles. Just look at the geocentric models of Tycho.
 
2018-03-03 11:37:12 PM  

Tranquil Hegemony: pup.socket: Your blog sucks. What is "a particle" anyway?

A particle is a localized excitation/vibration of a quantum field. Just as a Higgs particle is an excitation of the Higgs field, an individual electron is an excitation of the "electron field" that permeates the universe. That excitation appears as a particle or a wave depending on how you look at it.

/quantum field theory
//not a physicist
///thinks dark matter/energy is probably real


See how your definition (however vague) makes the question and the blog post meaningless?
 
2018-03-04 12:50:02 AM  
Could Forbes not be a site I will click on at all? It wouldn't be the wackiest thing ever.

/whining about my adblocker is a good way to get me to not only not white-list your site, but not visit it at all
 
2018-03-04 02:24:56 AM  
This is one of those "clueless on such a fundamental level that it's hard to even address where you went wrong" pieces of idiocy, which unfortunately seems to be pretty typical of the Forbes science articles.

To begin with the idea that something has to be "either a particle or a wave" exclusively is to farking wrong that the science has been firmly, unarguably in on this shiat for over a century.  So there's that...
 
2018-03-04 03:19:01 AM  

Rising Ape: Is this the place where non-physicists come in and say "dark matter's clearly nonsense, maybe gravity just doesn't work the way you think it does, have you thought of that?"?

It's usually pretty safe to assume that if you, a non-expert in the field, have thought of something then the experts have thought of it too...

imgs.xkcd.comView Full Size

There's an XKCD for this one.
 
2018-03-04 08:47:08 AM  
Dark matter is today's phlogiston. There, I said it.
 
2018-03-04 09:02:14 AM  

adamatari: es, they are experts, but they don't know and haven't discovered everything. Admitting ignorance and saying what you know and don't know is a necessary first step to knowledge


And that's exactly what they would say. Nobody's saying "it's dark matter" and then not investigating further. But to make progress you need hypotheses to test, and the current evidence really doesn't fit any modified gravity model (without also including some kind of dark matter).

Historical comparison: The neutrino - introduced to explain apparent violation of conservation laws in beta decay, not detected until much later.
 
2018-03-04 07:18:14 PM  

Rising Ape: Is this the place where non-physicists come in and say "dark matter's clearly nonsense, maybe gravity just doesn't work the way you think it does, have you thought of that?"?

It's usually pretty safe to assume that if you, a non-expert in the field, have thought of something then the experts have thought of it too...


All the observations of Dark Matter are of gravitational effects, it's not unreasonable to ask that before anyone jumps to the conclusion that there must be missing mass, we explore options regarding our understanding of gravity.

Now, the obvious ones, such as gravity behaving differently at different distances have been checked and the numbers don't add up, so no-one talks about them. The ones involving branes and other universes are mostly speculative.

In the meantime, when we hear any talk of investigations it's all about WIMPs and variations on "particles that we didn't think had mass, but maybe they do". Is it any wonder the first question anyone asks is "have you thought that gravity doesn't work the way you think it does"?
 
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