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(KSTU FOX 13)   Utah mom upset after school tells 6th graders they can't refuse when asked to dance. "My daughter keeps coming to me and saying, 'I can't say no to a boy'. That's the message kids are getting"   ( fox13now.com) divider line
    More: Asinine, Teacher, Richard, Kanesville Elementary, Education, Weber School District, bad message, sixth-grade daughter, Lesson plan  
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5186 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Feb 2018 at 9:05 AM (22 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2018-02-09 09:35:13 AM  

doglover: dbialac:

You will make a delicious mutton curry.


a WHAT???
 
2018-02-09 09:35:38 AM  

physt: ajgeek: /I took a lot of rejection as a kid.

My kid has no obligation to make your kid feel a certain way. Not his job.


You *are* aware that I'm attempting to critically think about this, and not immediately side with the school despite the issues I had when I was a kid, right? That I'm pointing out that the article is immediately pushing this to extremes in both directions to get clicks?

Besides, with that attitude toward me, there's a better than zero chance your kid feels it's his job to make kids feel inferior to him, since his parent is so quick to throw judgment out there.
 
2018-02-09 09:36:33 AM  
Whatever happened to dance cards? Also, it's definitely an idea to teach the kids various ways to dance first. One of my very happy memories in college was taking a dancing class with a friend, and learning to actually dance rather than just thrash around like a spastic spider monkey.
 
2018-02-09 09:36:44 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: ArcadianRefugee: ajgeek: On the one hand: this rule is intended to give kids who normally have no chance whatsoever to actually have a chance and maybe, MAYBE others will realize that the kid isn't such a freak after all.

On the flip side, a little rejection once in a while might prevent people from growing up and thinking they are the smartest, best-looking, most talented, most successful person with the hugest audiences and highest ratings ever and most votes ever*.

Sometimes, it's good to hear "no".

And conversely, always being rejected by your peers can destroy a person. Sometimes one yes can make a huge difference in the world.

The yes policy is for the benifit of people who are shy, low confidence and people who are snobby, pompous.

The popular people might learn the unpopular aren't so bad. And popularity is nothing.


Yes, this.  I grew up very sensitive and poorly socialized. "No" set me back years self isolating, though: Come to find out I was not unappealing as confessed by more than few subsequent paramours.  We were apparently all poorly socialized, and I wasn't facing rejection as much as shyness or "hard to get" games.
 
2018-02-09 09:38:04 AM  
Mixed feelings.  Girls should have the right to refuse having to interact with boys who make them uncomfortable on the one hand.  On the other hand, you are going to have the lonely, depressed boys getting rejected by everyone, and feeling even more lonely, depressed and rejected.

Maybe have the kids, of both genders, make a secret list of who they want to dance with, turn it into the teacher, and then assign dances?  I can see flaws in that too though.
 
2018-02-09 09:38:23 AM  
img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2018-02-09 09:39:43 AM  

Pocket Ninja: hubiestubert: isn't witchcraft, but it IS the road that leads to witchcraft and lesbianism...

Wait. I thought it led to the demasculation and ensuing feminization of men as a gender, which are the first steps toward a future in which men are second-class citizens essentially treated as slaves. Or are you saying that witchcraft and lesbianism is a natural part of that new order?


Why do you have to make this so complicated? Just relax and enjoy our  new era of gimp masks and weener leashes.
 
2018-02-09 09:40:16 AM  

ajgeek: physt: ajgeek: /I took a lot of rejection as a kid.

My kid has no obligation to make your kid feel a certain way. Not his job.

You *are* aware that I'm attempting to critically think about this, and not immediately side with the school despite because ofthe issues I had when I was a kid, right? That I'm pointing out that the article is immediately pushing this to extremes in both directions to get clicks?

Besides, with that attitude toward me, there's a better than zero chance your kid feels it's his job to make kids feel inferior to him, since his parent is so quick to throw judgment out there.


FTFY. Also, nothing in that was judgemental. The school is trying to make socially awkward kids feel less socially awkward by making other kids endure unwanted physical contact. That's not their job.
 
2018-02-09 09:40:35 AM  
This is from years ago. My 6th grade made learning dances part of PE. This was roughly the time when it was widely understood that cooties were a game and not real.
No one asked anybody to dance. Boys formed one line, girls formed another. The teachers paired everybody up starting from the front of each line. It was rather easy for both girls and boys to adjust their positions in line and be assigned a tolerable dance buddy. Delayed thanks Denise.
 
2018-02-09 09:41:23 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: ArcadianRefugee: ajgeek: On the one hand: this rule is intended to give kids who normally have no chance whatsoever to actually have a chance and maybe, MAYBE others will realize that the kid isn't such a freak after all.

On the flip side, a little rejection once in a while might prevent people from growing up and thinking they are the smartest, best-looking, most talented, most successful person with the hugest audiences and highest ratings ever and most votes ever*.

Sometimes, it's good to hear "no".

And conversely, always being rejected by your peers can destroy a person. Sometimes one yes can make a huge difference in the world.

The yes policy is for the benifit of people who are shy, low confidence and people who are snobby, pompous.

The popular people might learn the unpopular aren't so bad. And popularity is nothing.


Well, you're optimistic, I'll give you that.
 
2018-02-09 09:44:03 AM  

Urmuf Hamer: Darth_Lukecash: ArcadianRefugee: ajgeek: On the one hand: this rule is intended to give kids who normally have no chance whatsoever to actually have a chance and maybe, MAYBE others will realize that the kid isn't such a freak after all.

On the flip side, a little rejection once in a while might prevent people from growing up and thinking they are the smartest, best-looking, most talented, most successful person with the hugest audiences and highest ratings ever and most votes ever*.

Sometimes, it's good to hear "no".

And conversely, always being rejected by your peers can destroy a person. Sometimes one yes can make a huge difference in the world.

The yes policy is for the benifit of people who are shy, low confidence and people who are snobby, pompous.

The popular people might learn the unpopular aren't so bad. And popularity is nothing.

Yes, this.  I grew up very sensitive and poorly socialized. "No" set me back years self isolating, though: Come to find out I was not unappealing as confessed by more than few subsequent paramours.  We were apparently all poorly socialized, and I wasn't facing rejection as much as shyness or "hard to get" games.


The correct way to deal with that is with actual experts, not by forcing kids to do things they're uncomfortable doing.
 
2018-02-09 09:45:58 AM  

Delay: This is from years ago. My 6th grade made learning dances part of PE. This was roughly the time when it was widely understood that cooties were a game and not real.
No one asked anybody to dance. Boys formed one line, girls formed another. The teachers paired everybody up starting from the front of each line. It was rather easy for both girls and boys to adjust their positions in line and be assigned a tolerable dance buddy. Delayed thanks Denise.


And that's where CIS gendered programming begins, right there. And everyone thinks there's no cultural brainwashing.
 It starts with elementary phys ed DO-SEE-DO-ING, PEOPLE.
 
2018-02-09 09:46:04 AM  
                                     Prior to the dance, Which is voluntary.....
img.fark.netView Full Size

                                                          Never mind
 
2018-02-09 09:46:39 AM  
media1.popsugar-assets.comView Full Size

Knows the pain
 
2018-02-09 09:48:55 AM  
*reads article*
Wow.  Utah knows how to over-think the hell out of something.
Person at school:"Hey! We should have a dance"
*Thup Thup Thup Thup sound of chopper blades swelling*
*Blast of helicopter wind blows papers around*
*15 psychologists tumble out the chopper door, sliding down ropes*
Psychologist shock trooper: *yelling over the noise* "Hang on just a minute.  We have some rules for you....."
 
2018-02-09 09:50:16 AM  

meanmutton: Electrify: If this were a school with in a Muslim community, the trolls would be going on about how this is Sharia Law creeping in on America.

But since this is Christian Utah, I'm guessing we won't hear a peep from them.

/gotta love the bigot double standard

Fundamentalist Christians don't dance.


Agrees:
img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2018-02-09 09:50:26 AM  

mrmopar5287: Maybe this is a good rule for giving valentine cards (everyone gets one or you don't give them at all) but not a dance?

It is an issue of consent. This is why you don't force children to hug people they don't want to. It's their body and they get to set boundaries.


Or the consent could be, "If you attend this class, you're agreeing to these rules". You need some way of preventing the cliquishness that would result in some kids never getting a 'yes'.
 
2018-02-09 09:50:29 AM  

Delay: This is from years ago. My 6th grade made learning dances part of PE. This was roughly the time when it was widely understood that cooties were a game and not real.
No one asked anybody to dance. Boys formed one line, girls formed another. The teachers paired everybody up starting from the front of each line. It was rather easy for both girls and boys to adjust their positions in line and be assigned a tolerable dance buddy. Delayed thanks Denise.


Forgot the image:
img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2018-02-09 09:51:27 AM  

Znuh: This is what you guys voted for. Good people on both sides. Rational thought ejected out the window.


TFA says: "He basically just said they've had this dance set up this way for a long time and they've never had any concern before," she said of his response.

So it sounds like this idiocy happened even when Obama was President.
 
2018-02-09 09:52:59 AM  

big pig peaches: What if a boy asks another boy to dance?


Tidal wave.
 
2018-02-09 09:54:20 AM  
My outrage meter on this is about a 1.5, but the mom is still 100% correct.
 
2018-02-09 09:54:29 AM  
I was a fat, awkward kid in school.

I have every confidence that even if these girls are forced to dance, they will, in no uncertain terms, let the ugly boys know how utterly undesirable, gross, and undeserving of human contact they are.

/why yes, the wounds run deep... why do you ask?
 
2018-02-09 09:54:45 AM  
ArcadianRefugee: ajgeek: On the one hand: this rule is intended to give kids who normally have no chance whatsoever to actually have a chance and maybe, MAYBE others will realize that the kid isn't such a freak after all.

On the flip side, a little rejection once in a while might prevent people from growing up and thinking they are the smartest, best-looking, most talented, most successful person with the hugest audiences and highest ratings ever and most votes ever*.

Sometimes, it's good to hear "no".


Sorry, that is not a "flip side."

What I mean is that ajgeek is referring to the "out" kids who, as a rule, are always rejected for everything. (Every school has at least one.) There is no "a little rejection once in a while" or "sometimes" involved.

Your post fails.
 
2018-02-09 09:54:50 AM  

Nurglitch: Whatever happened to dance cards? Also, it's definitely an idea to teach the kids various ways to dance first. One of my very happy memories in college was taking a dancing class with a friend, and learning to actually dance rather than just thrash around like a spastic spider monkey.


Have you been watching me dance?  Creepy...
 
2018-02-09 09:55:38 AM  
"Boys can't ask anyone to dance. If a girl wants to dance, she has to ask, and face possible rejection."

There, was that so hard?
 
2018-02-09 09:57:27 AM  

gyorg: gyorg: The standard for social dance is you may deny any dance, but you must then sit out that song.  Goes for leads or follows who are asked.  Honestly, I think it's fair.  You don't have to dance with everyone, but if you want to dance with a specific someone, you should ask them, not reject people until you get what you want.  It's not about "you don't have control" but more "you have to be gracious to everyone".

For argentine tango there's a whole standard to it.  Leads will look at follows sitting around the floor.  If they make eye contact, it means they'll dance and the lead walks up and asks them.  If they avert their eyes, the lead knows it'll be rejection and never asks.  Once you agree to dance, you dance 3 songs.

Also, there are exceptions to the standard.  You're not supposed to monopolize a single person's time by asking them over and over.  If you break that part of the social contract, they have every right to break their part and say 'no' then dance with someone else.  It's all a social balance.  Exactly what people _need_ to learn.


Thank you for a highly intelligent post.


What the hell are you doing on Fark?
 
2018-02-09 09:58:42 AM  

hubiestubert: Nadie_AZ: Can she ask the boys she wants to dance with and bypass the ones she doesn't? Or is girls asking boys to dance still considered witchcraft?

It isn't witchcraft, but it IS the road that leads to witchcraft and lesbianism...


Lesbianism caused the Germans to invade Poland.

/They pronounce it Lebensraum.
 
2018-02-09 09:59:08 AM  

meanmutton: FTFY. Also, nothing in that was judgemental. The school is trying to make socially awkward kids feel less socially awkward by making other kids endure unwanted physical contact. That's not their job.


My being open and honest about my personal history as a disclaimer does not give you the right to "fix that for me." Don't correct me; I know what I said and meant it.
 
2018-02-09 09:59:36 AM  

Iowan73: I was scared to death to talk to girls until I got to college. Would knowing they couldn't laugh in my face if I asked them to dance made things easier?


Um, I think the girls can still laugh in the boys faces.  They have to dance with them contemptuously, but they can still laugh in their faces.
 
2018-02-09 10:02:19 AM  
At camp we had assigned dance partners. I don't remember exactly how it worked but I think we had to dance with our partners for the first dance, and maybe another dance, but after that it was a free for all.

I think that's probably fair enough if you have assigned partners for an X number of dances, maybe even switch partners for another dance or two. Then allow kids freedom.
 
2018-02-09 10:05:00 AM  

fat boy: [media1.popsugar-assets.com image 850x850]
Knows the pain


I goddamn came into this thread SPECIFICALLY for this and Fark did not let me down...
Thank you, fat boy.
 
2018-02-09 10:05:49 AM  
Lily Tomlin's rendition of "I Cain't Say No" doesn't appear to be on YouTube.  Rats.
 
2018-02-09 10:08:10 AM  
Why is consent so hard for people to understand?

These are the only rules a dance needs:
1) Any person can ask another person to dance.
B) It is OK to respectfully decline a request to dance.
III) A declined offer must be accepted with quiet dignity and grace.
 
2018-02-09 10:08:19 AM  

big pig peaches: What if a boy asks another boy to dance?


In Utah?  I believe there's a public stoning.

\for both of them, just to be sure
 
2018-02-09 10:09:18 AM  

Delay: This is from years ago. My 6th grade made learning dances part of PE. This was roughly the time when it was widely understood that cooties were a game and not real.
No one asked anybody to dance. Boys formed one line, girls formed another. The teachers paired everybody up starting from the front of each line. It was rather easy for both girls and boys to adjust their positions in line and be assigned a tolerable dance buddy. Delayed thanks Denise.


There probably is some phys ed merit to teaching dancing.  There is an old Irish proverb, "Never give a sword to a man who can't dance."
 
2018-02-09 10:09:42 AM  

Harlee: ArcadianRefugee: ajgeek: On the one hand: this rule is intended to give kids who normally have no chance whatsoever to actually have a chance and maybe, MAYBE others will realize that the kid isn't such a freak after all.

On the flip side, a little rejection once in a while might prevent people from growing up and thinking they are the smartest, best-looking, most talented, most successful person with the hugest audiences and highest ratings ever and most votes ever*.

Sometimes, it's good to hear "no".

Sorry, that is not a "flip side."

What I mean is that ajgeek is referring to the "out" kids who, as a rule, are always rejected for everything. (Every school has at least one.) There is no "a little rejection once in a while" or "sometimes" involved.

Your post fails.


So does your reading comprehension. :P


/especially since ajgeek also noted "on the one hand"; that sort of implies there's another hand*

* apologies to amputees
 
2018-02-09 10:11:08 AM  
Who cares.  Home school your over indulged kid.  I'm sure your child is special and very advanced.  I didn't read the article.
 
2018-02-09 10:13:12 AM  
It's Utah so the boys can ask several girls to dance at the same time.
 
2018-02-09 10:14:39 AM  
The cult of self esteem gets bitten in the ass!

Everyone's a winner!
Maybe they should hand out participation trophies at the dance.
 
2018-02-09 10:15:43 AM  
Why How Utah; Wimmen folk must submit to the  male!

Yet I see no accommodation where the  guys have to ask the  geeky girls to dance so defenders tell me how this is good?

 We insure the male does not face rejection  but TFB if you are not the hot chick?

I was rejected a lot at these dances, so I quit going- I can';t dance anyway- and instead developed a personality and did my social interaction with the  opposite sex in a different setting where I was more at ease and could be me, no I did not get more p__sy than what I knew what to do with but I dated some really awesome females- not all of them the  "hot chicks"- and thanks to that Nailed it with the  wife!
 
2018-02-09 10:15:58 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: ArcadianRefugee: ajgeek: On the one hand: this rule is intended to give kids who normally have no chance whatsoever to actually have a chance and maybe, MAYBE others will realize that the kid isn't such a freak after all.

On the flip side, a little rejection once in a while might prevent people from growing up and thinking they are the smartest, best-looking, most talented, most successful person with the hugest audiences and highest ratings ever and most votes ever*.

Sometimes, it's good to hear "no".

And conversely, always being rejected by your peers can destroy a person. Sometimes one yes can make a huge difference in the world.

The yes policy is for the benifit of people who are shy, low confidence and people who are snobby, pompous.

The popular people might learn the unpopular aren't so bad. And popularity is nothing.


Here's your participation trophy . . .

Maybe if a kid is rejected constantly, he or she could make some changes to fit in better.  Rejection is a form of social pressure to steer people toward societal norms.  Good news for kids is that there are a bunch of subgroups that have variations of the norms (jocks, nerds, hipsters, emos, etc.), so the kid can choose a group he or she finds appealing.

Will there be kids that don't get the message?  Yeah.  But that is no reason for the school to force some other kid to always say yes at a dance to the weird kid.
 
2018-02-09 10:16:26 AM  
Hm.  Sounds like the kind of dance where the teachers get to pick all the music too.
 
2018-02-09 10:17:55 AM  

Delay: Delay: This is from years ago. My 6th grade made learning dances part of PE. This was roughly the time when it was widely understood that cooties were a game and not real.
No one asked anybody to dance. Boys formed one line, girls formed another. The teachers paired everybody up starting from the front of each line. It was rather easy for both girls and boys to adjust their positions in line and be assigned a tolerable dance buddy. Delayed thanks Denise.

Forgot the image: [img.fark.net image 799x600]


Oh my god, I remember that game.
 
2018-02-09 10:18:20 AM  

Electrify: If this were a school with in a Muslim community, the trolls would be going on about how this is Sharia Law creeping in on America.

But since this is Christian Utah, I'm guessing we won't hear a peep from them.

/gotta love the bigot double standard


Let me know if you need help sweeping up all that straw and whole cloth.
 
2018-02-09 10:21:47 AM  

Teufel Ritter: Maybe if a kid is rejected constantly, he or she could make some changes to fit in better.  Rejection is a form of social pressure to steer people toward societal norms.


At school-age, kids aren't generally rejected because of how they act (something under their control), they're rejected because of how they look (something generally not under their control). If a kid is rejected constantly, that kid will almost certainly develop crushingly low self-esteem. (And forcing people to say "yes" is certainly not the answer).
 
2018-02-09 10:22:08 AM  

Delay: This is from years ago. My 6th grade made learning dances part of PE. This was roughly the time when it was widely understood that cooties were a game and not real.
No one asked anybody to dance. Boys formed one line, girls formed another. The teachers paired everybody up starting from the front of each line. It was rather easy for both girls and boys to adjust their positions in line and be assigned a tolerable dance buddy. Delayed thanks Denise.


When we taught social dance, we lined people up and paired them off. That said, that's not how dances work.  We actually would make the leads practice asking followers to dance as well as pointing out the standards (as I outlined above).  Asking someone to dance is hard.  Even being asked to dance is hard.  We had to teach some of the follows to stand near the dance floor and be looking up, not at the back of the room on their phones, if they wanted to be asked to dance.  (We also taught the leads to pay attention to this and prefer the people who wanted to dance vs those taking a break.)
 
2018-02-09 10:22:29 AM  

Bathroom Samurai: Why is consent so hard for people to understand?

These are the only rules a dance needs:
1) Any person can ask another person to dance.
B) It is OK to respectfully decline a request to dance.
III) A declined offer must be accepted with quiet dignity and grace.


What about an accepted offer?

A poor man was in a terrible accident and lost his eye. He could only afford a wooden eye that he was very self-conscious of.

At a dance, he couldn't find a woman to dance with. He sees from the opposite side of the dance floor a girl with a large nose. Seeing that she is also without a dance partner, he approaches her, asking "Would you dance with me?"

Filled with excitement, she blurts out "Would I? Would I?!"

Angrily, the man retorts: "BIG NOSE BIG NOSE BIG NOSE!!!"
 
2018-02-09 10:24:18 AM  

Snarfangel: "Boys can't ask anyone to dance. If a girl wants to dance, she has to ask, and face possible rejection."

There, was that so hard?


These are called Sadie Hawkins dances.
 
2018-02-09 10:25:12 AM  

Harlee: gyorg: gyorg: The standard for social dance is you may deny any dance, but you must then sit out that song.  Goes for leads or follows who are asked.  Honestly, I think it's fair.  You don't have to dance with everyone, but if you want to dance with a specific someone, you should ask them, not reject people until you get what you want.  It's not about "you don't have control" but more "you have to be gracious to everyone".

For argentine tango there's a whole standard to it.  Leads will look at follows sitting around the floor.  If they make eye contact, it means they'll dance and the lead walks up and asks them.  If they avert their eyes, the lead knows it'll be rejection and never asks.  Once you agree to dance, you dance 3 songs.

Also, there are exceptions to the standard.  You're not supposed to monopolize a single person's time by asking them over and over.  If you break that part of the social contract, they have every right to break their part and say 'no' then dance with someone else.  It's all a social balance.  Exactly what people _need_ to learn.

Thank you for a highly intelligent post.


What the hell are you doing on Fark?


Working up the caffeine level in my bloodstream to write about my information security research.
 
2018-02-09 10:25:16 AM  

Snarfangel: Bathroom Samurai: Why is consent so hard for people to understand?

These are the only rules a dance needs:
1) Any person can ask another person to dance.
B) It is OK to respectfully decline a request to dance.
III) A declined offer must be accepted with quiet dignity and grace.

What about an accepted offer?

A poor man was in a terrible accident and lost his eye. He could only afford a wooden eye that he was very self-conscious of.

At a dance, he couldn't find a woman to dance with. He sees from the opposite side of the dance floor a girl with a large nose. Seeing that she is also without a dance partner, he approaches her, asking "Would you dance with me?"

Filled with excitement, she blurts out "Would I? Would I?!"

Angrily, the man retorts: "BIG NOSE BIG NOSE BIG NOSE!!!"


+1
 
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