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(KSTU FOX 13)   Utah mom upset after school tells 6th graders they can't refuse when asked to dance. "My daughter keeps coming to me and saying, 'I can't say no to a boy'. That's the message kids are getting"   ( fox13now.com) divider line
    More: Asinine, Teacher, Richard, Kanesville Elementary, Education, Weber School District, bad message, sixth-grade daughter, Lesson plan  
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5183 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Feb 2018 at 9:05 AM (22 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



193 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2018-02-09 08:20:04 AM  
Can she ask the boys she wants to dance with and bypass the ones she doesn't? Or is girls asking boys to dance still considered witchcraft?
 
2018-02-09 08:29:42 AM  

Nadie_AZ: Can she ask the boys she wants to dance with and bypass the ones she doesn't? Or is girls asking boys to dance still considered witchcraft?


It isn't witchcraft, but it IS the road that leads to witchcraft and lesbianism...
 
2018-02-09 08:50:38 AM  
"No" means "yes".
 
2018-02-09 08:50:42 AM  
hubiestubert: isn't witchcraft, but it IS the road that leads to witchcraft and lesbianism...

Wait. I thought it led to the demasculation and ensuing feminization of men as a gender, which are the first steps toward a future in which men are second-class citizens essentially treated as slaves. Or are you saying that witchcraft and lesbianism is a natural part of that new order?
 
2018-02-09 09:00:50 AM  

Nadie_AZ: Can she ask the boys she wants to dance with and bypass the ones she doesn't? Or is girls asking boys to dance still considered witchcraft?


In general, or in Utah?
 
2018-02-09 09:08:50 AM  
This is what you guys voted for. Good people on both sides. Rational thought ejected out the window.
 
2018-02-09 09:09:06 AM  
Mrs Pyle!  Harry keeps poking me with something in his pants!

Had to dance with Mrs. Pyle.

/another unrepressed memory.
 
2018-02-09 09:09:07 AM  
A perfect illustration of the society-undermining  difference between equality of opportunity (all can ask all) and equality of outcome (all must say yes to all)
 
2018-02-09 09:09:49 AM  
Utah. 6th grade.

Shouldn't be living on a compound as someones 5th wife by now?
 
2018-02-09 09:11:30 AM  
On the one hand: this rule is intended to give kids who normally have no chance whatsoever to actually have a chance and maybe, MAYBE others will realize that the kid isn't such a freak after all.

On the other hand: A no-refusal rule now == rape? Because that's the road this article wants us to head down.

/I took a lot of rejection as a kid.
 
2018-02-09 09:11:46 AM  
"He basically just said they've had this dance set up this way for a long time and they've never had any concern before," she said of his response.

*punch*
 
2018-02-09 09:14:06 AM  
The standard for social dance is you may deny any dance, but you must then sit out that song.  Goes for leads or follows who are asked.  Honestly, I think it's fair.  You don't have to dance with everyone, but if you want to dance with a specific someone, you should ask them, not reject people until you get what you want.  It's not about "you don't have control" but more "you have to be gracious to everyone".

For argentine tango there's a whole standard to it.  Leads will look at follows sitting around the floor.  If they make eye contact, it means they'll dance and the lead walks up and asks them.  If they avert their eyes, the lead knows it'll be rejection and never asks.  Once you agree to dance, you dance 3 songs.
 
2018-02-09 09:14:53 AM  

ajgeek: On the one hand: this rule is intended to give kids who normally have no chance whatsoever to actually have a chance and maybe, MAYBE others will realize that the kid isn't such a freak after all.


On the flip side, a little rejection once in a while might prevent people from growing up and thinking they are the smartest, best-looking, most talented, most successful person with the hugest audiences and highest ratings ever and most votes ever*.

Sometimes, it's good to hear "no".
 
2018-02-09 09:15:11 AM  
Being unable to say no is a terrible situation for a young girl at a middle school dance, but reverse the genders and add ten years and you get

i.ytimg.comView Full Size


All roads lead to Matt Greoning
 
2018-02-09 09:15:14 AM  
Some people just don't like to dance regardless of who is asking.
 
2018-02-09 09:15:29 AM  
Just keep stepping on their feet a lot and they might stop asking. Or take the lead and spin them, dip them and drop them.
 
2018-02-09 09:15:30 AM  

gyorg: The standard for social dance is you may deny any dance, but you must then sit out that song.  Goes for leads or follows who are asked.  Honestly, I think it's fair.  You don't have to dance with everyone, but if you want to dance with a specific someone, you should ask them, not reject people until you get what you want.  It's not about "you don't have control" but more "you have to be gracious to everyone".

For argentine tango there's a whole standard to it.  Leads will look at follows sitting around the floor.  If they make eye contact, it means they'll dance and the lead walks up and asks them.  If they avert their eyes, the lead knows it'll be rejection and never asks.  Once you agree to dance, you dance 3 songs.


Also, there are exceptions to the standard.  You're not supposed to monopolize a single person's time by asking them over and over.  If you break that part of the social contract, they have every right to break their part and say 'no' then dance with someone else.  It's all a social balance.  Exactly what people _need_ to learn.
 
2018-02-09 09:15:41 AM  

Pocket Ninja: hubiestubert: isn't witchcraft, but it IS the road that leads to witchcraft and lesbianism...

Wait. I thought it led to the demasculation and ensuing feminization of men as a gender, which are the first steps toward a future in which men are second-class citizens essentially treated as slaves. Or are you saying that witchcraft and lesbianism is a natural part of that new order?


This sounds like a job for InfoWars!

Quick, to the derpmobile!
 
2018-02-09 09:16:34 AM  
What if a boy asks another boy to dance?
 
2018-02-09 09:18:09 AM  
So, the boys can't just hang behind the gym and smoke while the girls dance in a circle around their shoes?
 
2018-02-09 09:18:22 AM  
What was wrong with the way it used to be?

Boys stood on one side of the gym, girls on the other and the gym was filled with sweat, fear & regret.

You know, kind of like marriage.
 
2018-02-09 09:19:19 AM  
Utah, huh?
#shockedface
 
2018-02-09 09:19:29 AM  
Maybe this is a good rule for giving valentine cards (everyone gets one or you don't give them at all) but not a dance?

It is an issue of consent. This is why you don't force children to hug people they don't want to. It's their body and they get to set boundaries.
 
2018-02-09 09:20:30 AM  
Finally, back to traditional values.
 
2018-02-09 09:21:12 AM  

Nadie_AZ: Can she ask the boys she wants to dance with and bypass the ones she doesn't? Or is girls asking boys to dance still considered witchcraft?


In Utah it is.
 
2018-02-09 09:21:22 AM  

Gubbo: Utah. 6th grade.

Shouldn't be living on a compound as someones 5th wife by now?


Kid Sister Wives!
 
2018-02-09 09:21:32 AM  

big pig peaches: What if a boy asks another boy to dance?


Kindness and inclusiveness does not work like that in Utah.
 
2018-02-09 09:21:39 AM  
Won't someone think of the uggos ?
 
2018-02-09 09:21:51 AM  
Story is dildos
 
2018-02-09 09:22:34 AM  
"I don't take no for an answer."

"How rapey of you."

img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2018-02-09 09:22:43 AM  
I was scared to death to talk to girls until I got to college. Would knowing they couldn't laugh in my face if I asked them to dance made things easier? Yes. But I was better off forcing myself to put myself out there. Growing up is difficult. We don't do kids favors by giving them a pass for the tough times.
 
2018-02-09 09:23:12 AM  
I've never been to a school dance so I was unaware that there were protocols in place. I'm in my 50s so it may be too late for me.
 
2018-02-09 09:23:41 AM  

hubiestubert: Nadie_AZ: Can she ask the boys she wants to dance with and bypass the ones she doesn't? Or is girls asking boys to dance still considered witchcraft?

It isn't witchcraft, but it IS the road that leads to witchcraft and lesbianism...


... go on
 
2018-02-09 09:24:19 AM  

ArcadianRefugee: ajgeek: On the one hand: this rule is intended to give kids who normally have no chance whatsoever to actually have a chance and maybe, MAYBE others will realize that the kid isn't such a freak after all.

On the flip side, a little rejection once in a while might prevent people from growing up and thinking they are the smartest, best-looking, most talented, most successful person with the hugest audiences and highest ratings ever and most votes ever*.

Sometimes, it's good to hear "no".


And conversely, always being rejected by your peers can destroy a person. Sometimes one yes can make a huge difference in the world.

The yes policy is for the benifit of people who are shy, low confidence and people who are snobby, pompous.

The popular people might learn the unpopular aren't so bad. And popularity is nothing.
 
amb
2018-02-09 09:27:06 AM  
I remember in dance classes back in jr high. You picked a partner for the entire duration, but the teachers made you switch partners a lot. You ended up dancing with everyone. in hindsight not as traumatic as it seemed to a young lad.

Square dancing was for the 7th graders. Ballroom for tge 8th grade.
 
2018-02-09 09:27:32 AM  

ajgeek: On the one hand: this rule is intended to give kids who normally have no chance whatsoever to actually have a chance and maybe, MAYBE others will realize that the kid isn't such a freak after all.

On the other hand: A no-refusal rule now == rape? Because that's the road this article wants us to head down.

/I took a lot of rejection as a kid.


DNRTFA, but I'm thinking the same thing. I've got two kids - one if 5th and one in 3rd grade. Their school does an amazing job of making sure everyone is included and there is no bullying. They encourage the kids to be kids and do wonders with wall flowers. My kids still tell me new stories that blow me away at how much thought the teachers put into this kind of thing.

The Utah school sounds CLOSE to something our school would do. On paper it would eliminate anyone from being rejected. However, in a traditional courtship ritual event (I sound like doc brown) AND the fact that they are in 6th grade (as opposed to a much younger and innocent year) then you could see how this could be taken the wrong way.

Kids do have to learn that things can be tough - maybe a 6th grade dance is the place to start. Then again, maybe that's the start of adult complexes which scar people for life. Not my specialty. Any farker an expert in this and care to share?
 
2018-02-09 09:27:52 AM  
I refused to square dance in the fourth grade because I didn't like the girl they paired me up with. I got to sit for four weeks and watch, and I got an F in PE that quarter.
 
2018-02-09 09:27:55 AM  
If this were a school with in a Muslim community, the trolls would be going on about how this is Sharia Law creeping in on America.

But since this is Christian Utah, I'm guessing we won't hear a peep from them.

/gotta love the bigot double standard
 
2018-02-09 09:28:04 AM  
Oh. Hell. No.
 
2018-02-09 09:28:21 AM  

doglover: Being unable to say no is a terrible situation for a young girl at a middle school dance, but reverse the genders and add ten years and you get

[i.ytimg.com image 480x360]

All roads lead to Matt Greoning


And that's where the road ends.

img.fark.netView Full Size


Perhaps it would be safer to take the road less traveled.
 
2018-02-09 09:31:10 AM  

Znuh: This is what you guys voted for. Good people on both sides. Rational thought ejected out the window.


I don't recall seeing this on the ballot.
 
2018-02-09 09:31:18 AM  

Electrify: If this were a school with in a Muslim community, the trolls would be going on about how this is Sharia Law creeping in on America.

But since this is Christian Utah, I'm guessing we won't hear a peep from them.

/gotta love the bigot double standard


They don't have Muslims in Utah?
 
2018-02-09 09:31:28 AM  

ajgeek: /I took a lot of rejection as a kid.


My kid has no obligation to make your kid feel a certain way. Not his job.
 
2018-02-09 09:31:41 AM  

FuLinHyu: filled with sweat, fear & regret.


Gah! You were there too!!!

You forgot to mention there was that one friend who would throw caution into the wind and dance with a girl, we would bust his chops, and secretly try to imagine how awesome it would be if we had the balls to just ASK her.

Also, you now have the song Lonesome Town stuck in my head.
 
2018-02-09 09:31:42 AM  

ajgeek: On the one hand: this rule is intended to give kids who normally have no chance whatsoever to actually have a chance and maybe, MAYBE others will realize that the kid isn't such a freak after all.

On the other hand: A no-refusal rule now == rape? Because that's the road this article wants us to head down.

/I took a lot of rejection as a kid.


I took a lot of rejection as a kid, but then realized that, yes, in fact, I was a freak, and moreover that my parents were freaks. Once I realized this, I looked for better and more socially competent role models and by taking their lead, I was able to stop being a freak. Those same people who used to think I was a freak now call me normal. Put better, instead of lashing out at society, look for role models who are normal and emulate them instead of your parents.
 
2018-02-09 09:32:07 AM  

Electrify: If this were a school with in a Muslim community, the trolls would be going on about how this is Sharia Law creeping in on America.

But since this is Christian Utah, I'm guessing we won't hear a peep from them.

/gotta love the bigot double standard


Fundamentalist Christians don't dance.
 
2018-02-09 09:32:22 AM  

hubiestubert: Nadie_AZ: Can she ask the boys she wants to dance with and bypass the ones she doesn't? Or is girls asking boys to dance still considered witchcraft?

It isn't witchcraft, but it IS the road that leads to witchcraft and lesbianism...


My sister knew this girl who thought she would be cool and ask boys to dance. Last I heard she was living in northern California, eating vegetables and wearing sandals WITH socks.
 
2018-02-09 09:32:40 AM  
I don't see the problem. They're just preparing the girls for the lifetime of subservience for which they were meant. It's best they learn the lesson early before they start getting crazy ideas in their heads. Next week in Civics class, they'll teach what an important responsibility is is to vote, and to always get their husband's approval on their choice before making such an important decision.
 
2018-02-09 09:33:04 AM  
dbialac:

You will make a delicious mutton curry.
 
2018-02-09 09:35:11 AM  
100% inclusiveness culture meets #MeToo, and this is what happens.

Solution: Girls can say no to the guys but have to give them a "You Tried!" participation ribbon.
 
2018-02-09 09:35:13 AM  

doglover: dbialac:

You will make a delicious mutton curry.


a WHAT???
 
2018-02-09 09:35:38 AM  

physt: ajgeek: /I took a lot of rejection as a kid.

My kid has no obligation to make your kid feel a certain way. Not his job.


You *are* aware that I'm attempting to critically think about this, and not immediately side with the school despite the issues I had when I was a kid, right? That I'm pointing out that the article is immediately pushing this to extremes in both directions to get clicks?

Besides, with that attitude toward me, there's a better than zero chance your kid feels it's his job to make kids feel inferior to him, since his parent is so quick to throw judgment out there.
 
2018-02-09 09:36:33 AM  
Whatever happened to dance cards? Also, it's definitely an idea to teach the kids various ways to dance first. One of my very happy memories in college was taking a dancing class with a friend, and learning to actually dance rather than just thrash around like a spastic spider monkey.
 
2018-02-09 09:36:44 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: ArcadianRefugee: ajgeek: On the one hand: this rule is intended to give kids who normally have no chance whatsoever to actually have a chance and maybe, MAYBE others will realize that the kid isn't such a freak after all.

On the flip side, a little rejection once in a while might prevent people from growing up and thinking they are the smartest, best-looking, most talented, most successful person with the hugest audiences and highest ratings ever and most votes ever*.

Sometimes, it's good to hear "no".

And conversely, always being rejected by your peers can destroy a person. Sometimes one yes can make a huge difference in the world.

The yes policy is for the benifit of people who are shy, low confidence and people who are snobby, pompous.

The popular people might learn the unpopular aren't so bad. And popularity is nothing.


Yes, this.  I grew up very sensitive and poorly socialized. "No" set me back years self isolating, though: Come to find out I was not unappealing as confessed by more than few subsequent paramours.  We were apparently all poorly socialized, and I wasn't facing rejection as much as shyness or "hard to get" games.
 
2018-02-09 09:38:04 AM  
Mixed feelings.  Girls should have the right to refuse having to interact with boys who make them uncomfortable on the one hand.  On the other hand, you are going to have the lonely, depressed boys getting rejected by everyone, and feeling even more lonely, depressed and rejected.

Maybe have the kids, of both genders, make a secret list of who they want to dance with, turn it into the teacher, and then assign dances?  I can see flaws in that too though.
 
2018-02-09 09:38:23 AM  
img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2018-02-09 09:39:43 AM  

Pocket Ninja: hubiestubert: isn't witchcraft, but it IS the road that leads to witchcraft and lesbianism...

Wait. I thought it led to the demasculation and ensuing feminization of men as a gender, which are the first steps toward a future in which men are second-class citizens essentially treated as slaves. Or are you saying that witchcraft and lesbianism is a natural part of that new order?


Why do you have to make this so complicated? Just relax and enjoy our  new era of gimp masks and weener leashes.
 
2018-02-09 09:40:16 AM  

ajgeek: physt: ajgeek: /I took a lot of rejection as a kid.

My kid has no obligation to make your kid feel a certain way. Not his job.

You *are* aware that I'm attempting to critically think about this, and not immediately side with the school despite because ofthe issues I had when I was a kid, right? That I'm pointing out that the article is immediately pushing this to extremes in both directions to get clicks?

Besides, with that attitude toward me, there's a better than zero chance your kid feels it's his job to make kids feel inferior to him, since his parent is so quick to throw judgment out there.


FTFY. Also, nothing in that was judgemental. The school is trying to make socially awkward kids feel less socially awkward by making other kids endure unwanted physical contact. That's not their job.
 
2018-02-09 09:40:35 AM  
This is from years ago. My 6th grade made learning dances part of PE. This was roughly the time when it was widely understood that cooties were a game and not real.
No one asked anybody to dance. Boys formed one line, girls formed another. The teachers paired everybody up starting from the front of each line. It was rather easy for both girls and boys to adjust their positions in line and be assigned a tolerable dance buddy. Delayed thanks Denise.
 
2018-02-09 09:41:23 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: ArcadianRefugee: ajgeek: On the one hand: this rule is intended to give kids who normally have no chance whatsoever to actually have a chance and maybe, MAYBE others will realize that the kid isn't such a freak after all.

On the flip side, a little rejection once in a while might prevent people from growing up and thinking they are the smartest, best-looking, most talented, most successful person with the hugest audiences and highest ratings ever and most votes ever*.

Sometimes, it's good to hear "no".

And conversely, always being rejected by your peers can destroy a person. Sometimes one yes can make a huge difference in the world.

The yes policy is for the benifit of people who are shy, low confidence and people who are snobby, pompous.

The popular people might learn the unpopular aren't so bad. And popularity is nothing.


Well, you're optimistic, I'll give you that.
 
2018-02-09 09:44:03 AM  

Urmuf Hamer: Darth_Lukecash: ArcadianRefugee: ajgeek: On the one hand: this rule is intended to give kids who normally have no chance whatsoever to actually have a chance and maybe, MAYBE others will realize that the kid isn't such a freak after all.

On the flip side, a little rejection once in a while might prevent people from growing up and thinking they are the smartest, best-looking, most talented, most successful person with the hugest audiences and highest ratings ever and most votes ever*.

Sometimes, it's good to hear "no".

And conversely, always being rejected by your peers can destroy a person. Sometimes one yes can make a huge difference in the world.

The yes policy is for the benifit of people who are shy, low confidence and people who are snobby, pompous.

The popular people might learn the unpopular aren't so bad. And popularity is nothing.

Yes, this.  I grew up very sensitive and poorly socialized. "No" set me back years self isolating, though: Come to find out I was not unappealing as confessed by more than few subsequent paramours.  We were apparently all poorly socialized, and I wasn't facing rejection as much as shyness or "hard to get" games.


The correct way to deal with that is with actual experts, not by forcing kids to do things they're uncomfortable doing.
 
2018-02-09 09:45:58 AM  

Delay: This is from years ago. My 6th grade made learning dances part of PE. This was roughly the time when it was widely understood that cooties were a game and not real.
No one asked anybody to dance. Boys formed one line, girls formed another. The teachers paired everybody up starting from the front of each line. It was rather easy for both girls and boys to adjust their positions in line and be assigned a tolerable dance buddy. Delayed thanks Denise.


And that's where CIS gendered programming begins, right there. And everyone thinks there's no cultural brainwashing.
 It starts with elementary phys ed DO-SEE-DO-ING, PEOPLE.
 
2018-02-09 09:46:04 AM  
                                     Prior to the dance, Which is voluntary.....
img.fark.netView Full Size

                                                          Never mind
 
2018-02-09 09:46:39 AM  
media1.popsugar-assets.comView Full Size

Knows the pain
 
2018-02-09 09:48:55 AM  
*reads article*
Wow.  Utah knows how to over-think the hell out of something.
Person at school:"Hey! We should have a dance"
*Thup Thup Thup Thup sound of chopper blades swelling*
*Blast of helicopter wind blows papers around*
*15 psychologists tumble out the chopper door, sliding down ropes*
Psychologist shock trooper: *yelling over the noise* "Hang on just a minute.  We have some rules for you....."
 
2018-02-09 09:50:16 AM  

meanmutton: Electrify: If this were a school with in a Muslim community, the trolls would be going on about how this is Sharia Law creeping in on America.

But since this is Christian Utah, I'm guessing we won't hear a peep from them.

/gotta love the bigot double standard

Fundamentalist Christians don't dance.


Agrees:
img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2018-02-09 09:50:26 AM  

mrmopar5287: Maybe this is a good rule for giving valentine cards (everyone gets one or you don't give them at all) but not a dance?

It is an issue of consent. This is why you don't force children to hug people they don't want to. It's their body and they get to set boundaries.


Or the consent could be, "If you attend this class, you're agreeing to these rules". You need some way of preventing the cliquishness that would result in some kids never getting a 'yes'.
 
2018-02-09 09:50:29 AM  

Delay: This is from years ago. My 6th grade made learning dances part of PE. This was roughly the time when it was widely understood that cooties were a game and not real.
No one asked anybody to dance. Boys formed one line, girls formed another. The teachers paired everybody up starting from the front of each line. It was rather easy for both girls and boys to adjust their positions in line and be assigned a tolerable dance buddy. Delayed thanks Denise.


Forgot the image:
img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2018-02-09 09:51:27 AM  

Znuh: This is what you guys voted for. Good people on both sides. Rational thought ejected out the window.


TFA says: "He basically just said they've had this dance set up this way for a long time and they've never had any concern before," she said of his response.

So it sounds like this idiocy happened even when Obama was President.
 
2018-02-09 09:52:59 AM  

big pig peaches: What if a boy asks another boy to dance?


Tidal wave.
 
2018-02-09 09:54:20 AM  
My outrage meter on this is about a 1.5, but the mom is still 100% correct.
 
2018-02-09 09:54:29 AM  
I was a fat, awkward kid in school.

I have every confidence that even if these girls are forced to dance, they will, in no uncertain terms, let the ugly boys know how utterly undesirable, gross, and undeserving of human contact they are.

/why yes, the wounds run deep... why do you ask?
 
2018-02-09 09:54:45 AM  
ArcadianRefugee: ajgeek: On the one hand: this rule is intended to give kids who normally have no chance whatsoever to actually have a chance and maybe, MAYBE others will realize that the kid isn't such a freak after all.

On the flip side, a little rejection once in a while might prevent people from growing up and thinking they are the smartest, best-looking, most talented, most successful person with the hugest audiences and highest ratings ever and most votes ever*.

Sometimes, it's good to hear "no".


Sorry, that is not a "flip side."

What I mean is that ajgeek is referring to the "out" kids who, as a rule, are always rejected for everything. (Every school has at least one.) There is no "a little rejection once in a while" or "sometimes" involved.

Your post fails.
 
2018-02-09 09:54:50 AM  

Nurglitch: Whatever happened to dance cards? Also, it's definitely an idea to teach the kids various ways to dance first. One of my very happy memories in college was taking a dancing class with a friend, and learning to actually dance rather than just thrash around like a spastic spider monkey.


Have you been watching me dance?  Creepy...
 
2018-02-09 09:55:38 AM  
"Boys can't ask anyone to dance. If a girl wants to dance, she has to ask, and face possible rejection."

There, was that so hard?
 
2018-02-09 09:57:27 AM  

gyorg: gyorg: The standard for social dance is you may deny any dance, but you must then sit out that song.  Goes for leads or follows who are asked.  Honestly, I think it's fair.  You don't have to dance with everyone, but if you want to dance with a specific someone, you should ask them, not reject people until you get what you want.  It's not about "you don't have control" but more "you have to be gracious to everyone".

For argentine tango there's a whole standard to it.  Leads will look at follows sitting around the floor.  If they make eye contact, it means they'll dance and the lead walks up and asks them.  If they avert their eyes, the lead knows it'll be rejection and never asks.  Once you agree to dance, you dance 3 songs.

Also, there are exceptions to the standard.  You're not supposed to monopolize a single person's time by asking them over and over.  If you break that part of the social contract, they have every right to break their part and say 'no' then dance with someone else.  It's all a social balance.  Exactly what people _need_ to learn.


Thank you for a highly intelligent post.


What the hell are you doing on Fark?
 
2018-02-09 09:58:42 AM  

hubiestubert: Nadie_AZ: Can she ask the boys she wants to dance with and bypass the ones she doesn't? Or is girls asking boys to dance still considered witchcraft?

It isn't witchcraft, but it IS the road that leads to witchcraft and lesbianism...


Lesbianism caused the Germans to invade Poland.

/They pronounce it Lebensraum.
 
2018-02-09 09:59:08 AM  

meanmutton: FTFY. Also, nothing in that was judgemental. The school is trying to make socially awkward kids feel less socially awkward by making other kids endure unwanted physical contact. That's not their job.


My being open and honest about my personal history as a disclaimer does not give you the right to "fix that for me." Don't correct me; I know what I said and meant it.
 
2018-02-09 09:59:36 AM  

Iowan73: I was scared to death to talk to girls until I got to college. Would knowing they couldn't laugh in my face if I asked them to dance made things easier?


Um, I think the girls can still laugh in the boys faces.  They have to dance with them contemptuously, but they can still laugh in their faces.
 
2018-02-09 10:02:19 AM  
At camp we had assigned dance partners. I don't remember exactly how it worked but I think we had to dance with our partners for the first dance, and maybe another dance, but after that it was a free for all.

I think that's probably fair enough if you have assigned partners for an X number of dances, maybe even switch partners for another dance or two. Then allow kids freedom.
 
2018-02-09 10:05:00 AM  

fat boy: [media1.popsugar-assets.com image 850x850]
Knows the pain


I goddamn came into this thread SPECIFICALLY for this and Fark did not let me down...
Thank you, fat boy.
 
2018-02-09 10:05:49 AM  
Lily Tomlin's rendition of "I Cain't Say No" doesn't appear to be on YouTube.  Rats.
 
2018-02-09 10:08:10 AM  
Why is consent so hard for people to understand?

These are the only rules a dance needs:
1) Any person can ask another person to dance.
B) It is OK to respectfully decline a request to dance.
III) A declined offer must be accepted with quiet dignity and grace.
 
2018-02-09 10:08:19 AM  

big pig peaches: What if a boy asks another boy to dance?


In Utah?  I believe there's a public stoning.

\for both of them, just to be sure
 
2018-02-09 10:09:18 AM  

Delay: This is from years ago. My 6th grade made learning dances part of PE. This was roughly the time when it was widely understood that cooties were a game and not real.
No one asked anybody to dance. Boys formed one line, girls formed another. The teachers paired everybody up starting from the front of each line. It was rather easy for both girls and boys to adjust their positions in line and be assigned a tolerable dance buddy. Delayed thanks Denise.


There probably is some phys ed merit to teaching dancing.  There is an old Irish proverb, "Never give a sword to a man who can't dance."
 
2018-02-09 10:09:42 AM  

Harlee: ArcadianRefugee: ajgeek: On the one hand: this rule is intended to give kids who normally have no chance whatsoever to actually have a chance and maybe, MAYBE others will realize that the kid isn't such a freak after all.

On the flip side, a little rejection once in a while might prevent people from growing up and thinking they are the smartest, best-looking, most talented, most successful person with the hugest audiences and highest ratings ever and most votes ever*.

Sometimes, it's good to hear "no".

Sorry, that is not a "flip side."

What I mean is that ajgeek is referring to the "out" kids who, as a rule, are always rejected for everything. (Every school has at least one.) There is no "a little rejection once in a while" or "sometimes" involved.

Your post fails.


So does your reading comprehension. :P


/especially since ajgeek also noted "on the one hand"; that sort of implies there's another hand*

* apologies to amputees
 
2018-02-09 10:11:08 AM  
Who cares.  Home school your over indulged kid.  I'm sure your child is special and very advanced.  I didn't read the article.
 
2018-02-09 10:13:12 AM  
It's Utah so the boys can ask several girls to dance at the same time.
 
2018-02-09 10:14:39 AM  
The cult of self esteem gets bitten in the ass!

Everyone's a winner!
Maybe they should hand out participation trophies at the dance.
 
2018-02-09 10:15:43 AM  
Why How Utah; Wimmen folk must submit to the  male!

Yet I see no accommodation where the  guys have to ask the  geeky girls to dance so defenders tell me how this is good?

 We insure the male does not face rejection  but TFB if you are not the hot chick?

I was rejected a lot at these dances, so I quit going- I can';t dance anyway- and instead developed a personality and did my social interaction with the  opposite sex in a different setting where I was more at ease and could be me, no I did not get more p__sy than what I knew what to do with but I dated some really awesome females- not all of them the  "hot chicks"- and thanks to that Nailed it with the  wife!
 
2018-02-09 10:15:58 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: ArcadianRefugee: ajgeek: On the one hand: this rule is intended to give kids who normally have no chance whatsoever to actually have a chance and maybe, MAYBE others will realize that the kid isn't such a freak after all.

On the flip side, a little rejection once in a while might prevent people from growing up and thinking they are the smartest, best-looking, most talented, most successful person with the hugest audiences and highest ratings ever and most votes ever*.

Sometimes, it's good to hear "no".

And conversely, always being rejected by your peers can destroy a person. Sometimes one yes can make a huge difference in the world.

The yes policy is for the benifit of people who are shy, low confidence and people who are snobby, pompous.

The popular people might learn the unpopular aren't so bad. And popularity is nothing.


Here's your participation trophy . . .

Maybe if a kid is rejected constantly, he or she could make some changes to fit in better.  Rejection is a form of social pressure to steer people toward societal norms.  Good news for kids is that there are a bunch of subgroups that have variations of the norms (jocks, nerds, hipsters, emos, etc.), so the kid can choose a group he or she finds appealing.

Will there be kids that don't get the message?  Yeah.  But that is no reason for the school to force some other kid to always say yes at a dance to the weird kid.
 
2018-02-09 10:16:26 AM  
Hm.  Sounds like the kind of dance where the teachers get to pick all the music too.
 
2018-02-09 10:17:55 AM  

Delay: Delay: This is from years ago. My 6th grade made learning dances part of PE. This was roughly the time when it was widely understood that cooties were a game and not real.
No one asked anybody to dance. Boys formed one line, girls formed another. The teachers paired everybody up starting from the front of each line. It was rather easy for both girls and boys to adjust their positions in line and be assigned a tolerable dance buddy. Delayed thanks Denise.

Forgot the image: [img.fark.net image 799x600]


Oh my god, I remember that game.
 
2018-02-09 10:18:20 AM  

Electrify: If this were a school with in a Muslim community, the trolls would be going on about how this is Sharia Law creeping in on America.

But since this is Christian Utah, I'm guessing we won't hear a peep from them.

/gotta love the bigot double standard


Let me know if you need help sweeping up all that straw and whole cloth.
 
2018-02-09 10:21:47 AM  

Teufel Ritter: Maybe if a kid is rejected constantly, he or she could make some changes to fit in better.  Rejection is a form of social pressure to steer people toward societal norms.


At school-age, kids aren't generally rejected because of how they act (something under their control), they're rejected because of how they look (something generally not under their control). If a kid is rejected constantly, that kid will almost certainly develop crushingly low self-esteem. (And forcing people to say "yes" is certainly not the answer).
 
2018-02-09 10:22:08 AM  

Delay: This is from years ago. My 6th grade made learning dances part of PE. This was roughly the time when it was widely understood that cooties were a game and not real.
No one asked anybody to dance. Boys formed one line, girls formed another. The teachers paired everybody up starting from the front of each line. It was rather easy for both girls and boys to adjust their positions in line and be assigned a tolerable dance buddy. Delayed thanks Denise.


When we taught social dance, we lined people up and paired them off. That said, that's not how dances work.  We actually would make the leads practice asking followers to dance as well as pointing out the standards (as I outlined above).  Asking someone to dance is hard.  Even being asked to dance is hard.  We had to teach some of the follows to stand near the dance floor and be looking up, not at the back of the room on their phones, if they wanted to be asked to dance.  (We also taught the leads to pay attention to this and prefer the people who wanted to dance vs those taking a break.)
 
2018-02-09 10:22:29 AM  

Bathroom Samurai: Why is consent so hard for people to understand?

These are the only rules a dance needs:
1) Any person can ask another person to dance.
B) It is OK to respectfully decline a request to dance.
III) A declined offer must be accepted with quiet dignity and grace.


What about an accepted offer?

A poor man was in a terrible accident and lost his eye. He could only afford a wooden eye that he was very self-conscious of.

At a dance, he couldn't find a woman to dance with. He sees from the opposite side of the dance floor a girl with a large nose. Seeing that she is also without a dance partner, he approaches her, asking "Would you dance with me?"

Filled with excitement, she blurts out "Would I? Would I?!"

Angrily, the man retorts: "BIG NOSE BIG NOSE BIG NOSE!!!"
 
2018-02-09 10:24:18 AM  

Snarfangel: "Boys can't ask anyone to dance. If a girl wants to dance, she has to ask, and face possible rejection."

There, was that so hard?


These are called Sadie Hawkins dances.
 
2018-02-09 10:25:12 AM  

Harlee: gyorg: gyorg: The standard for social dance is you may deny any dance, but you must then sit out that song.  Goes for leads or follows who are asked.  Honestly, I think it's fair.  You don't have to dance with everyone, but if you want to dance with a specific someone, you should ask them, not reject people until you get what you want.  It's not about "you don't have control" but more "you have to be gracious to everyone".

For argentine tango there's a whole standard to it.  Leads will look at follows sitting around the floor.  If they make eye contact, it means they'll dance and the lead walks up and asks them.  If they avert their eyes, the lead knows it'll be rejection and never asks.  Once you agree to dance, you dance 3 songs.

Also, there are exceptions to the standard.  You're not supposed to monopolize a single person's time by asking them over and over.  If you break that part of the social contract, they have every right to break their part and say 'no' then dance with someone else.  It's all a social balance.  Exactly what people _need_ to learn.

Thank you for a highly intelligent post.


What the hell are you doing on Fark?


Working up the caffeine level in my bloodstream to write about my information security research.
 
2018-02-09 10:25:16 AM  

Snarfangel: Bathroom Samurai: Why is consent so hard for people to understand?

These are the only rules a dance needs:
1) Any person can ask another person to dance.
B) It is OK to respectfully decline a request to dance.
III) A declined offer must be accepted with quiet dignity and grace.

What about an accepted offer?

A poor man was in a terrible accident and lost his eye. He could only afford a wooden eye that he was very self-conscious of.

At a dance, he couldn't find a woman to dance with. He sees from the opposite side of the dance floor a girl with a large nose. Seeing that she is also without a dance partner, he approaches her, asking "Would you dance with me?"

Filled with excitement, she blurts out "Would I? Would I?!"

Angrily, the man retorts: "BIG NOSE BIG NOSE BIG NOSE!!!"


+1
 
2018-02-09 10:27:28 AM  

flondrix: Delay: This is from years ago. My 6th grade made learning dances part of PE. This was roughly the time when it was widely understood that cooties were a game and not real.
No one asked anybody to dance. Boys formed one line, girls formed another. The teachers paired everybody up starting from the front of each line. It was rather easy for both girls and boys to adjust their positions in line and be assigned a tolerable dance buddy. Delayed thanks Denise.

There probably is some phys ed merit to teaching dancing.  There is an old Irish proverb, "Never give a sword to a man who can't dance."


That proverb may work for women too. Both my daughter and wife are accomplished at both fencing and dancing.
 
2018-02-09 10:27:55 AM  
You're telling me a state where the majority of people at least nominally belong to a weird, farked-up, patriarchal church have weird, farked-up, patriarchal bullshiat going on in their lives?
 
2018-02-09 10:29:40 AM  
The only time that girls shouldn't be allowed to refuse a partner is at a purity ball.
 
2018-02-09 10:30:27 AM  
She can't say no, because of the implication

It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia - The 'Implication'
Youtube -yUafzOXHPE
 
2018-02-09 10:30:33 AM  

ajgeek: On the one hand: this rule is intended to give kids who normally have no chance whatsoever to actually have a chance and maybe, MAYBE others will realize that the kid isn't such a freak after all.

On the other hand: A no-refusal rule now == rape? Because that's the road this article wants us to head down.

/I took a lot of rejection as a kid.


The trouble is, yeah, a no-refusal rule is good for the kids who always get rejected...  But it is worse for the psychopaths who are actually likely to end up being rapists when they realize they get power trips by making people do things they don't want to do, and using social pressure is a great tool to do it.

The kid who gets rejected needs (and deserves) individual attention from the adults in their life. So does the psychopath kid.  So does the girl who feels pressured to submit.  A one-size-fits-all rule isn't going to cut it.  Adults charged with guiding children need to do that.
 
2018-02-09 10:33:52 AM  
Article fails for lack of specifics.  First, is the dance during school hours or is it voluntary to attend or not attend?  Second, what exactly is the penalty for saying "no"?  If it's a voluntary activity and the only penalty is "well then you can't participate in the dance, cause those are the rules" then OK fine.  If there is any school-sanctioned discipline associated with it then that's bullshiat.  Also a good opportunity for 6th graders to learn how to question the authority of teachers.
 
2018-02-09 10:36:12 AM  
"Please be respectful, be polite," Findlay said. "We want to promote kindness, and so we want you to say yes when someone asks you to dance."

Another option would be to teach them how to respectfully decline.  That would be a way to promote kindness, and a good skill to have also.
 
2018-02-09 10:36:38 AM  

JNowe: "Please be respectful, be polite," Findlay said. "We want to promote kindness, and so we want you to say yes when someone asks you to dance."

Another option would be to teach them how to respectfully decline.  That would be a way to promote kindness, and a good skill to have also.


Oh, and teach them to take a rejection respectfully as well.
 
2018-02-09 10:40:21 AM  

amb: I remember in dance classes back in jr high. You picked a partner for the entire duration, but the teachers made you switch partners a lot. You ended up dancing with everyone. in hindsight not as traumatic as it seemed to a young lad.

Square dancing was for the 7th graders. Ballroom for tge 8th grade.


Ahh, the anti-jazz no-negro music curriculum.
 
2018-02-09 10:43:41 AM  

cefm: Also a good opportunity for 6th graders to learn how to question the authority of teachers.


Yes, to any young people reading this - question authority, that's something you can totally do. Not that like I think hoards of young people read fark but maybe.
 
2018-02-09 10:48:53 AM  

gyorg: Snarfangel: "Boys can't ask anyone to dance. If a girl wants to dance, she has to ask, and face possible rejection."

There, was that so hard?

These are called Sadie Hawkins dances.


In my school we had Sadie Botkins dances.

img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2018-02-09 10:50:07 AM  

feralbaby: Delay: This is from years ago. My 6th grade made learning dances part of PE. This was roughly the time when it was widely understood that cooties were a game and not real.
No one asked anybody to dance. Boys formed one line, girls formed another. The teachers paired everybody up starting from the front of each line. It was rather easy for both girls and boys to adjust their positions in line and be assigned a tolerable dance buddy. Delayed thanks Denise.

And that's where CIS gendered programming begins, right there. And everyone thinks there's no cultural brainwashing.
 It starts with elementary phys ed DO-SEE-DO-ING, PEOPLE.


Yeah, it's the school dances that lead to gender roles in neolithic tribes and aboriginal groups.
 
2018-02-09 10:54:08 AM  

big pig peaches: What if a boy asks another boy to dance?


img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2018-02-09 10:54:09 AM  

Snarfangel: Bathroom Samurai: Why is consent so hard for people to understand?

These are the only rules a dance needs:
1) Any person can ask another person to dance.
B) It is OK to respectfully decline a request to dance.
III) A declined offer must be accepted with quiet dignity and grace.

What about an accepted offer?

A poor man was in a terrible accident and lost his eye. He could only afford a wooden eye that he was very self-conscious of.

At a dance, he couldn't find a woman to dance with. He sees from the opposite side of the dance floor a girl with a large nose. Seeing that she is also without a dance partner, he approaches her, asking "Would you dance with me?"

Filled with excitement, she blurts out "Would I? Would I?!"

Angrily, the man retorts: "BIG NOSE BIG NOSE BIG NOSE!!!"


"I just wanted a dance."
vignette.wikia.nocookie.netView Full Size
 
2018-02-09 10:58:43 AM  

Thong_of_Zardoz: Teufel Ritter: Maybe if a kid is rejected constantly, he or she could make some changes to fit in better.  Rejection is a form of social pressure to steer people toward societal norms.

At school-age, kids aren't generally rejected because of how they act (something under their control), they're rejected because of how they look (something generally not under their control). If a kid is rejected constantly, that kid will almost certainly develop crushingly low self-esteem. (And forcing people to say "yes" is certainly not the answer).


Well, I was that kid for a while.  Realized I should get a reasonable haircut instead of the stupid undercut I was rocking.  So, I gave muself a fade.  I also mowed lawns until I could by some Nikes instead of the Payless shoes I had and stopped wearing some stupid t-shirts I had.  Voila, a whole new world opened up.

The one kid at middle school who could not seem to make any friends in any group just couldn't get the message about his behavior, but I think he had some serious underlying issues.

But at least we both agree that forced consent isn't a solution.
 
2018-02-09 11:01:48 AM  

winedrinkingman: depressed boys getting rejected by everyone, and feeling even more lonely, depressed and rejected.


He becomes the most loyal hubby any wife will ever find.
 
2018-02-09 11:02:17 AM  
Stupid rule is stupid. Plus, why are elementary schools having a "dance"? Forced dancing is stupid. Can't they just have a nice party and keep the mandatory dancing out of it?
 
2018-02-09 11:02:58 AM  
Doesn't matter. They're all going to hell for dancing anyway.
 
2018-02-09 11:06:09 AM  
Also, the mother is right. That should be obvious, but some people are really farking stupid and apparently can't see that telling girls they can't refuse someone to avoid a boy being rejected is replacing one psychological "trauma" with another. fark that.

We've been telling people to raise girls to insist on consent and boys to recognize and abide by it and this shiat just throws that out the window because, quite frankly, a lot of adults don't know the first farking thing about the concept of consent and don't want to know. Which is part of the problem of sexual harassment and assault.
 
2018-02-09 11:08:16 AM  

dbialac: ajgeek: On the one hand: this rule is intended to give kids who normally have no chance whatsoever to actually have a chance and maybe, MAYBE others will realize that the kid isn't such a freak after all.

On the other hand: A no-refusal rule now == rape? Because that's the road this article wants us to head down.

/I took a lot of rejection as a kid.

I took a lot of rejection as a kid, but then realized that, yes, in fact, I was a freak, and moreover that my parents were freaks. Once I realized this, I looked for better and more socially competent role models and by taking their lead, I was able to stop being a freak. Those same people who used to think I was a freak now call me normal. Put better, instead of lashing out at society, look for role models who are normal and emulate them instead of your parents.


img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2018-02-09 11:10:37 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: ArcadianRefugee: ajgeek: On the one hand: this rule is intended to give kids who normally have no chance whatsoever to actually have a chance and maybe, MAYBE others will realize that the kid isn't such a freak after all.

On the flip side, a little rejection once in a while might prevent people from growing up and thinking they are the smartest, best-looking, most talented, most successful person with the hugest audiences and highest ratings ever and most votes ever*.

Sometimes, it's good to hear "no".

And conversely, always being rejected by your peers can destroy a person. Sometimes one yes can make a huge difference in the world.

The yes policy is for the benifit of people who are shy, low confidence and people who are snobby, pompous.

The popular people might learn the unpopular aren't so bad. And popularity is nothing.


I'm puzzled by the people suggesting that forced participation may somehow help the popular kids empathize with the socially awkward ones.

I was plenty socially awkward as a kid and this sounds like a nightmare. Can you imagine how pissed and gossipy Ms. Popularity would be after being forced to dance with the weird kid instead of her crush during her favorite song? And  she ain't gonna blame the policy,  that's for sure.
 
2018-02-09 11:13:25 AM  

SirDigbyChickenCaesar: Znuh: This is what you guys voted for. Good people on both sides. Rational thought ejected out the window.

I don't recall seeing this on the ballot.


img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2018-02-09 11:14:31 AM  
/csb time

When I first found about all this anti-bulling stuff our schools are doing now days I had a knee jerk reaction that it is to appease helicopter parents. Then I thought raising a generation of kids taught to respect each other may not be such a bad thing.

THEN as my kids have gone through this school I noticed something I didn't expect. The attitude that pervades the school for anti-bulling has resulted in a level of confidence and respect in the kids class I couldn't imagine from my own years.

The story in TFA can't be taken in a vacuum. Applied to my school years it would have been disastrous. Applied to my kids school I can fully see why they are doing this.

/extra csb

At my kids school playground there is a bench called the "buddy bench". If you can't find anyone to play with you sit on it and someone will come play with you. I ask my kids if they ever sit on it and they say they do. "Do other kids come play with you then?" I ask. "Always" they tell me. I can't imagine how poorly this concept would have gone over in my day. The kids don't see it as a shameful thing or something to be ridiculed. They simply see it as an invitation to play.

The base level confidence that this has instilled in the kids is unreal. Instead of making them snowflakes it has given them to tools they need to believe in themselves - it has made them tougher. They can handle situations that would have crushed me.
 
2018-02-09 11:16:07 AM  

Harry Wagstaff: Some people just don't like to dance regardless of who is asking.


Then why are they at a school dance? These are not mandatory activities.

I hated dancing so I only went to the homecoming dances in Jr. High and HS because they were the ones that had a live band.
 
2018-02-09 11:18:11 AM  

gyorg: The standard for social dance is you may deny any dance, but you must then sit out that song.  Goes for leads or follows who are asked.  Honestly, I think it's fair.  You don't have to dance with everyone, but if you want to dance with a specific someone, you should ask them, not reject people until you get what you want.  It's not about "you don't have control" but more "you have to be gracious to everyone".

For argentine tango there's a whole standard to it.  Leads will look at follows sitting around the floor.  If they make eye contact, it means they'll dance and the lead walks up and asks them.  If they avert their eyes, the lead knows it'll be rejection and never asks.  Once you agree to dance, you dance 3 songs.


Dancing sounds fun.
 
2018-02-09 11:22:39 AM  
There's a simple solution to all this:

Get the fark out of Utah.

I mean, you don't live in Provincetown if gay things bother you, right?


also:
03 GSW 12.26.96 Cheap Utah Blues
Youtube Vzf8NCZGWg0
 
2018-02-09 11:22:56 AM  
theregoesthat:
I'm puzzled by the people suggesting that forced participation may somehow help the popular kids empathize with the socially awkward ones.

I was plenty socially awkward as a kid and this sounds like a nightmare. Can you imagine how pissed and gossipy Ms. Popularity would be after being forced to dance with the weird kid instead of her crush during her favorite song? And  she ain't gonna blame the policy,  that's for sure.


This. The adults running this thing are idiots.
 
2018-02-09 11:25:47 AM  

gyorg: The standard for social dance is you may deny any dance, but you must then sit out that song.  Goes for leads or follows who are asked.  Honestly, I think it's fair.  You don't have to dance with everyone, but if you want to dance with a specific someone, you should ask them, not reject people until you get what you want.  It's not about "you don't have control" but more "you have to be gracious to everyone".

For argentine tango there's a whole standard to it.  Leads will look at follows sitting around the floor.  If they make eye contact, it means they'll dance and the lead walks up and asks them.  If they avert their eyes, the lead knows it'll be rejection and never asks.  Once you agree to dance, you dance 3 songs.


Grandma Mabel and her rules of etiquette can fark off. I have always maintained the right to refuse to dance and anyone else should be able to do the same.

No.
 
2018-02-09 11:26:04 AM  

ajgeek: On the one hand: this rule is intended to give kids who normally have no chance whatsoever to actually have a chance and maybe, MAYBE others will realize that the kid isn't such a freak after all.

On the other hand: A no-refusal rule now == rape? Because that's the road this article wants us to head down.

/I took a lot of rejection as a kid.


Yes. Kids should be required to be as polite and respectful to each other as the adults can enforce, acknowledging that kids can be pretty terrible and adults can't always prevent it.

Should Suzie be a completely awful little biatch to Jimmy when he asks her to dance?  Not hardly. Teaching kids to politely say "i'm sorry, I'm not interested" is a good lesson. A bad lesson is telling Suzie that she has to engage with Jimmy beyond treating him with respect.  That even though his parents haven't taught him about deodorant yet, that even though he still picks his nose and eats it at 13, she has to dance with him whether she likes it or not. It's not "rape," but it is forcing young people to engage in behavior significantly more intimate than the courtesy expected of human coexistence. It's also not doing Jimmy any favors; he wants to dance with Suzie and the principal will make it happen. It's perfectly fine that he's a smelly booger-eater. It might delay the beginning of some introspection concerning why girls might not like him.
 
2018-02-09 11:28:25 AM  

gyorg: The standard for social dance is you may deny any dance, but you must then sit out that song.  Goes for leads or follows who are asked.  Honestly, I think it's fair.  You don't have to dance with everyone, but if you want to dance with a specific someone, you should ask them, not reject people until you get what you want.  It's not about "you don't have control" but more "you have to be gracious to everyone".


A bunch of budding computer hackers could launch a denial-of-service attack on a popular girl.
 
2018-02-09 11:30:51 AM  
That sort of thing should be taught at home or in the Church.
 
2018-02-09 11:33:51 AM  

catmandu: Harry Wagstaff: Some people just don't like to dance regardless of who is asking.

Then why are they at a school dance? These are not mandatory activities.

I hated dancing so I only went to the homecoming dances in Jr. High and HS because they were the ones that had a live band.


Did you just incredlously ask why kids who don't like to dance would go to a dance and then provide a reason for such behavior a sentence later?
 
2018-02-09 11:34:16 AM  
Girls don't owe you shiat. The end. Get the fark over it.

/wipes up puke
 
2018-02-09 11:35:50 AM  

Znuh: This is what you guys voted for. Good people on both sides. Rational thought ejected out the window.


According to the news, this policy has been in place for some years. you know, for "inclusion." So if the vote your talking about is the "vote" to install diversity and tolerance and all that other PC rubbish meant to protect children from hurt feelings... yup.
 
2018-02-09 11:42:30 AM  
Here is how it should work:

Elementary School
- Kids do not choose who the dance with. Instead, everyone rotates so that everyone ends up dancing with each other at some point in time.

Middle School + High School
- Kids can ask other kids to dance. They can accept or reject them and choose to dance with one partner the entire night if they mutually want to. Some kids might not have partners or get a dance. If anyone is a little shiat though and is obnoxious or picks on someone else, then that person is automatically ejected from the event.

Kids should learn to be open-minded, but coming of age and learning rejection and what not is integral to the growth of the individual. It can be a brutal experience as well as defeating. The kids who are ducks need to be set the fark straight swiftly, and drastically. When you are in middle school, you reach a pivotal point in your life that will likely influence who you become as an adult more than any other time in your life. Robbing kids of that point is only stunting their development.
 
2018-02-09 11:45:06 AM  

Christian Bale: 100% inclusiveness culture meets #MeToo, and this is what happens.

Solution: Girls can say no to the guys but have to give them a "You Tried!" participation ribbon.


But the boys who didn't ask wouldn't get a ribbon, and we can't have that.
 
2018-02-09 11:45:07 AM  
...just wait until folk dancing in junior high.  Then the teachers get upset when a boy refuses to dance with a boy and a girl refuses to dance with a girl.
 
2018-02-09 11:46:26 AM  

ArcadianRefugee: ajgeek: On the one hand: this rule is intended to give kids who normally have no chance whatsoever to actually have a chance and maybe, MAYBE others will realize that the kid isn't such a freak after all.

On the flip side, a little rejection once in a while might prevent people from growing up and thinking they are the smartest, best-looking, most talented, most successful person with the hugest audiences and highest ratings ever and most votes ever*.

Sometimes, it's good to hear "no".


vignette.wikia.nocookie.netView Full Size


Yeah, totally worked. Dude really got the point after being rejected enough times.
 
2018-02-09 11:48:23 AM  

Dodger: What happened to our tried & true method?

[img.fark.net image 425x318]


She died from marijuana.
 
2018-02-09 11:49:17 AM  

EmptyCup: The base level confidence that this has instilled in the kids is unreal. Instead of making them snowflakes it has given them to tools they need to believe in themselves - it has made them tougher. They can handle situations that would have crushed me.


How old are your kids?  This matters a lot, because it is a natural phase when kids start dividing into social groups.  I'm not saying they should turn into bullies, and destroyers of confidence, just they will start not playing with everyone.  A D&D player isn't going to give up their game to kick hacky sac with a jock.  They'll develop interest, and will gravitate towards that.  Younger children are more naturally inclusive.  It's good when they hang on to respectful behavior of other people, but it's okay for them to have specific interest too.
 
2018-02-09 12:01:32 PM  

EmptyCup: /csb time

When I first found about all this anti-bulling stuff our schools are doing now days I had a knee jerk reaction that it is to appease helicopter parents. Then I thought raising a generation of kids taught to respect each other may not be such a bad thing.

THEN as my kids have gone through this school I noticed something I didn't expect. The attitude that pervades the school for anti-bulling has resulted in a level of confidence and respect in the kids class I couldn't imagine from my own years.

The story in TFA can't be taken in a vacuum. Applied to my school years it would have been disastrous. Applied to my kids school I can fully see why they are doing this.

/extra csb

At my kids school playground there is a bench called the "buddy bench". If you can't find anyone to play with you sit on it and someone will come play with you. I ask my kids if they ever sit on it and they say they do. "Do other kids come play with you then?" I ask. "Always" they tell me. I can't imagine how poorly this concept would have gone over in my day. The kids don't see it as a shameful thing or something to be ridiculed. They simply see it as an invitation to play.

The base level confidence that this has instilled in the kids is unreal. Instead of making them snowflakes it has given them to tools they need to believe in themselves - it has made them tougher. They can handle situations that would have crushed me.


Good post.

I often laugh at how my kid's elementary school reminds me of that wacky teacher in Heathers, but if he's happy and someday manages to be less miserable in Middle School, then I'm fine with that.

The older he is before I need to teach him how to hold his own in a fight, the better. He's an incredibly kind kid, but I want be sure that the first time someone confuses the difference between kindness and weakness, they learn the difference.

Frankly, the school has an excellent approach. It's dancing. Nothing else. Dancing. It doesn't lead to anything. Just dancing.

At my school dances, I ended up dancing with girls who were out of my league, and with girls who were in a league below me. It wasn't mandatory, but there would have been 5x as much dancing going on if people weren't spending their time worried about rejection.

Small wins, even when it's impossible to fail, can help fragile people become healthy individuals instead of crazed school shooters.
 
2018-02-09 12:05:31 PM  

lack of warmth: EmptyCup: The base level confidence that this has instilled in the kids is unreal. Instead of making them snowflakes it has given them to tools they need to believe in themselves - it has made them tougher. They can handle situations that would have crushed me.

How old are your kids?  This matters a lot, because it is a natural phase when kids start dividing into social groups.  I'm not saying they should turn into bullies, and destroyers of confidence, just they will start not playing with everyone.  A D&D player isn't going to give up their game to kick hacky sac with a jock.  They'll develop interest, and will gravitate towards that.  Younger children are more naturally inclusive.  It's good when they hang on to respectful behavior of other people, but it's okay for them to have specific interest too.


5th and 3rd grade. The 5th grader has already formed their own social groups - 3rd grader not yet. I'm not saying everyone will play with everyone, but the kids who would normally be crushed (at this age) by the "cool" kids isn't something I'm even seeing as existing. It is weird how they (and their friends) can handle themselves. My 5th grader is a nerd and he's confident with that.

Quick example. Recently a kid was making fun of my 5th grader for something he liked (forget the exact thing). My kids response was along the lines of "so, what's your point?" Then kids around my kid started piping up that they liked the same thing - matter of fact style. Shut the kid down without aggression and was supported immediately by kids around him. I can't see anything in that situation going like that when I was a kid.

Whatever our school is doing works. I'd like to hope the Mrs and I play a part as well, but there's a whole social structure culture they built that is amazing.
 
2018-02-09 12:08:27 PM  

SMB2811: dbialac: ajgeek: On the one hand: this rule is intended to give kids who normally have no chance whatsoever to actually have a chance and maybe, MAYBE others will realize that the kid isn't such a freak after all.

On the other hand: A no-refusal rule now == rape? Because that's the road this article wants us to head down.

/I took a lot of rejection as a kid.

I took a lot of rejection as a kid, but then realized that, yes, in fact, I was a freak, and moreover that my parents were freaks. Once I realized this, I looked for better and more socially competent role models and by taking their lead, I was able to stop being a freak. Those same people who used to think I was a freak now call me normal. Put better, instead of lashing out at society, look for role models who are normal and emulate them instead of your parents.

[img.fark.net image 450x450]


See, that first word there -- "Obey" is the start of your problem. Healthy authority isn't about control; it's not about "do what I tell you." That's where weirdness starts. Instead, it's about choice and boundaries, specifically authority respecting the fact that you have ultimate authority over yourself and you understanding that your choices have consequences when you violate boundaries.
 
2018-02-09 12:11:51 PM  
Utah or as I've come to call it West Alabama.
 
2018-02-09 12:16:10 PM  

Smelly Pirate Hooker: Stupid rule is stupid. Plus, why are elementary schools having a "dance"? Forced dancing is stupid. Can't they just have a nice party and keep the mandatory dancing out of it?


i0.kym-cdn.comView Full Size
 
2018-02-09 12:16:27 PM  

gyorg: The standard for social dance is you may deny any dance, but you must then sit out that song.  Goes for leads or follows who are asked.  Honestly, I think it's fair.  You don't have to dance with everyone, but if you want to dance with a specific someone, you should ask them, not reject people until you get what you want.  It's not about "you don't have control" but more "you have to be gracious to everyone".

For argentine tango there's a whole standard to it.  Leads will look at follows sitting around the floor.  If they make eye contact, it means they'll dance and the lead walks up and asks them.  If they avert their eyes, the lead knows it'll be rejection and never asks.  Once you agree to dance, you dance 3 songs.


We handled it a much simpler way: people just said no. That technically didn't apply to the Sadie Hawkins dance, because we weren't allowed to hurt the poor wittle lady's feelings, but in reality you just let her know it wasn't going to be fun because you weren't interested.

Jesuchristo, rejection is a part of growing up, for boys and girls, men and women.
 
2018-02-09 12:17:51 PM  

Nadie_AZ: Can she ask the boys she wants to dance with and bypass the ones she doesn't? Or is girls asking boys to dance still considered witchcraft?


The girls should be allowed to give back the $10 if the don't to give the dance.
 
2018-02-09 12:18:23 PM  

Smelly Pirate Hooker: Stupid rule is stupid. Plus, why are elementary schools having a "dance"? Forced dancing is stupid. Can't they just have a nice party and keep the mandatory dancing out of it?


Stupid rule is stupid, rejection is a part of growing up and becoming an adult. Of course this is part of the "you have to consider everyone's feelings" line of thinking, in my day the kids just looked at the person who asked and said "No." Can't do that today, might hurt little Johnny or Janie's fee-fees.

/idiots
 
2018-02-09 12:19:20 PM  

ajgeek: On the one hand: this rule is intended to give kids who normally have no chance whatsoever to actually have a chance and maybe, MAYBE others will realize that the kid isn't such a freak after all.

On the other hand: A no-refusal rule now == rape? Because that's the road this article wants us to head down.

/I took a lot of rejection as a kid.


I am sorry that you faced rejection. But teaching little girls that they can't say no is a terrible thing.  If you can't see that, you are being willfully blind.

If you think that this would stop kids from being cruel little monsters to each other, you are dreaming.  It is a problem that should be addressed, but this is not the way and this is harmful.
 
2018-02-09 12:19:54 PM  

gyorg: The standard for social dance is you may deny any dance, but you must then sit out that song.  Goes for leads or follows who are asked.  Honestly, I think it's fair.  You don't have to dance with everyone, but if you want to dance with a specific someone, you should ask them, not reject people until you get what you want.  It's not about "you don't have control" but more "you have to be gracious to everyone".

For argentine tango there's a whole standard to it.  Leads will look at follows sitting around the floor.  If they make eye contact, it means they'll dance and the lead walks up and asks them.  If they avert their eyes, the lead knows it'll be rejection and never asks.  Once you agree to dance, you dance 3 songs.


Interesting.
 
2018-02-09 12:24:09 PM  

the money is in the banana stand: Here is how it should work:

Elementary School
- Kids do not choose who the dance with. Instead, everyone rotates so that everyone ends up dancing with each other at some point in time.

Middle School + High School
- Kids can ask other kids to dance. They can accept or reject them and choose to dance with one partner the entire night if they mutually want to. Some kids might not have partners or get a dance. If anyone is a little shiat though and is obnoxious or picks on someone else, then that person is automatically ejected from the event.

Kids should learn to be open-minded, but coming of age and learning rejection and what not is integral to the growth of the individual. It can be a brutal experience as well as defeating. The kids who are ducks need to be set the fark straight swiftly, and drastically. When you are in middle school, you reach a pivotal point in your life that will likely influence who you become as an adult more than any other time in your life. Robbing kids of that point is only stunting their development.


I think you let the kids figure it out and the teachers butt out.  The only job the adults/teachers should have is preventing groping (if that is even necessary)
 
2018-02-09 12:24:30 PM  
Anyone that thinks that forcing girls to say "yes" when a boy asks them to dance will somehow lead to increased self-esteem for the boy probably shouldn't be allowed to vote, drive, or hold any position of authority whatsoever.
 
2018-02-09 12:26:27 PM  
Forget it, Jake, it's Mormonistan.
 
2018-02-09 12:29:52 PM  
I did dance lessons and was a member of a dance troupe for a total of about 16 years and I will say this: dancing is an intimate activity. It's not (well, usually anyway) sexually intimate, but it is physically intimate. Putting girls into a position where it is either awkward, uncomfortable, or downright not possible to say no to a physically intimate experience with a boy is a seriously shiatty thing to do.

But also, as a dancer, I would hate to dance with a partner who didn't want to dance with me. Boys who are developing properly will feel natural revulsion toward dancing with an unwilling partner, because that is engaging in a physically intimate experience with an unwilling partner. If boys feel okay dancing with unwilling girls, they need evaluation and intervention. It's not healthy.

Getting rejected is a good thing. It rescues you from inflicting yourself on a person who doesn't want you. I feel like we all know this instinctively, yet ego gets the better of us maybe? Imagine you're 14. The 14 yr old girl you like doesn't reject you... not because she likes you, but because she is afraid to or has been told she doesn't have the right. Still want that date?
 
2018-02-09 12:46:55 PM  

dbialac: SMB2811: dbialac: ajgeek: On the one hand: this rule is intended to give kids who normally have no chance whatsoever to actually have a chance and maybe, MAYBE others will realize that the kid isn't such a freak after all.

On the other hand: A no-refusal rule now == rape? Because that's the road this article wants us to head down.

/I took a lot of rejection as a kid.

I took a lot of rejection as a kid, but then realized that, yes, in fact, I was a freak, and moreover that my parents were freaks. Once I realized this, I looked for better and more socially competent role models and by taking their lead, I was able to stop being a freak. Those same people who used to think I was a freak now call me normal. Put better, instead of lashing out at society, look for role models who are normal and emulate them instead of your parents.

[img.fark.net image 450x450]

See, that first word there -- "Obey" is the start of your problem. Healthy authority isn't about control; it's not about "do what I tell you." That's where weirdness starts. Instead, it's about choice and boundaries, specifically authority respecting the fact that you have ultimate authority over yourself and you understanding that your choices have consequences when you violate boundaries.


Oh ya, your entire point is stop being different and be just like everyone else but you totally are just the 'ultimate authority over yourself.'
 
2018-02-09 12:50:02 PM  

cefm: Article fails for lack of specifics.  First, is the dance during school hours or is it voluntary to attend or not attend?


You FAIL for your failure to watch/listen to the supplied video where-in the talking head state's:
"Prior to the dance, Which is voluntary"
 
2018-02-09 01:13:04 PM  
Utah mom upset....

stoppedreadingrightthere.jpg

Every day I am reminded how glad I am that I didn't waste any time/effort/money on kids.
 
2018-02-09 01:15:24 PM  

Leandros A: ....
Getting rejected is a good thing. It rescues you from inflicting yourself on a person who doesn't want you. I feel like we all know this instinctively, yet ego gets the better of us maybe? Imagine you're 14. The 14 yr old girl you like doesn't reject you... not because she likes you, but because she is afraid to or has been told she doesn't have the right. Still want that date?


At 14? Ohgodyessomuch. Your adult sensibility does not apply to the horny teenage mind.
 
2018-02-09 01:17:59 PM  

SonOfSpam: Leandros A: ....
Getting rejected is a good thing. It rescues you from inflicting yourself on a person who doesn't want you. I feel like we all know this instinctively, yet ego gets the better of us maybe? Imagine you're 14. The 14 yr old girl you like doesn't reject you... not because she likes you, but because she is afraid to or has been told she doesn't have the right. Still want that date?

At 14? Ohgodyessomuch. Your adult sensibility does not apply to the horny teenage mind.


I wasn't born 40 ya know. You never had that "but does she really like me?" insecurity?
 
2018-02-09 01:42:19 PM  

ajgeek: On the one hand: this rule is intended to give kids who normally have no chance whatsoever to actually have a chance and maybe, MAYBE others will realize that the kid isn't such a freak after all.

On the other hand: A no-refusal rule now == rape? Because that's the road this article wants us to head down.

/I took a lot of rejection as a kid.


Rejection is a good thing to learn.   I learned it myself.   But no,  they aren't saying that it equals rape, but it is not setting a good example that girls don't have a voice.
 
2018-02-09 01:43:10 PM  

SMB2811: dbialac: SMB2811: dbialac: ajgeek: On the one hand: this rule is intended to give kids who normally have no chance whatsoever to actually have a chance and maybe, MAYBE others will realize that the kid isn't such a freak after all.

On the other hand: A no-refusal rule now == rape? Because that's the road this article wants us to head down.

/I took a lot of rejection as a kid.

I took a lot of rejection as a kid, but then realized that, yes, in fact, I was a freak, and moreover that my parents were freaks. Once I realized this, I looked for better and more socially competent role models and by taking their lead, I was able to stop being a freak. Those same people who used to think I was a freak now call me normal. Put better, instead of lashing out at society, look for role models who are normal and emulate them instead of your parents.

[img.fark.net image 450x450]

See, that first word there -- "Obey" is the start of your problem. Healthy authority isn't about control; it's not about "do what I tell you." That's where weirdness starts. Instead, it's about choice and boundaries, specifically authority respecting the fact that you have ultimate authority over yourself and you understanding that your choices have consequences when you violate boundaries.

Oh ya, your entire point is stop being different and be just like everyone else but you totally are just the 'ultimate authority over yourself.'


First, if you don't approach authority, choice, decisions, behavior, etc. in a normal manner, don't be surprised when people call you a freak. That's what a freak is. See also: choices have consequences, including rejecting normalcy. Second, there's a direct correlation between being normal and being mentally healthy, because they are one in the same. Finally, see my comment about not lashing out at society because of your problems. It's your problem, not mine, you fix it.
 
2018-02-09 01:52:35 PM  

Leandros A: Getting rejected is a good thing. It rescues you from inflicting yourself on a person who doesn't want you. I feel like we all know this instinctively, yet ego gets the better of us maybe? Imagine you're 14. The 14 yr old girl you like doesn't reject you... not because she likes you, but because she is afraid to or has been told she doesn't have the right. Still want that date dance?


I grew up in the US. I'm not sure what "instinctive" is generally for United States teens now. Studies show an enormous change in gender orientation within comparable age groups during the past 40 years here. I blame BPA in packaging.

I'm old and would not want that dance. However, I recall it was possible for me to "know" within seconds (before asking) whether a girl would accept, "Do you wanna dance?" without her rejection. Her response itself was either confirmation or to let me know that I was not getting it and to be more aware.
 
2018-02-09 02:04:43 PM  

Delay: Leandros A: Getting rejected is a good thing. It rescues you from inflicting yourself on a person who doesn't want you. I feel like we all know this instinctively, yet ego gets the better of us maybe? Imagine you're 14. The 14 yr old girl you like doesn't reject you... not because she likes you, but because she is afraid to or has been told she doesn't have the right. Still want that date dance?

I grew up in the US. I'm not sure what "instinctive" is generally for United States teens now. Studies show an enormous change in gender orientation within comparable age groups during the past 40 years here. I blame BPA in packaging.

I'm old and would not want that dance. However, I recall it was possible for me to "know" within seconds (before asking) whether a girl would accept, "Do you wanna dance?" without her rejection. Her response itself was either confirmation or to let me know that I was not getting it and to be more aware.


Yeah, understanding social cues is very important if we don't want to hurt others. It would surprise me if a healthy middle schooler would really want to dance (or go on a date, for that matter) with someone who didn't want to. I have no idea what gender orientation even is but at least where I live, it's definitely the boys who ask the girls (we're a bit traditional) and the girls simply have got to be able to say no freely and have the experience (repeatedly and consistently, they are learning) of having their no be respected. That's how they learn to compensate for the tremendous social pressure on girls and women to say yes even when they're not into it.
 
2018-02-09 02:07:02 PM  

Delay: I recall it was possible for me to "know" within seconds (before asking) whether a girl would accept, "Do you wanna dance?" without her rejection. Her response itself was either confirmation or to let me know that I was not getting it and to be more aware.


Since the thread is getting a bit stale and needs a bump, here is Bobby Freeman expounding on that question in 1958.
Bobby Freeman 'Do You Wanna Dance' (1958)
Youtube _-tmZHMnlAo
 
2018-02-09 02:07:16 PM  
 gonoodle.com has videos with dancing and popular music. All the kids dance to whatever songs are played if they choose to. You can even add some of the Kids Dance Party ones from youtube. My students loved it. No slow dance songs were played, though.
 
2018-02-09 02:09:24 PM  

SMB2811: dbialac: SMB2811: dbialac: ajgeek: On the one hand: this rule is intended to give kids who normally have no chance whatsoever to actually have a chance and maybe, MAYBE others will realize that the kid isn't such a freak after all.

On the other hand: A no-refusal rule now == rape? Because that's the road this article wants us to head down.

/I took a lot of rejection as a kid.

I took a lot of rejection as a kid, but then realized that, yes, in fact, I was a freak, and moreover that my parents were freaks. Once I realized this, I looked for better and more socially competent role models and by taking their lead, I was able to stop being a freak. Those same people who used to think I was a freak now call me normal. Put better, instead of lashing out at society, look for role models who are normal and emulate them instead of your parents.

[img.fark.net image 450x450]

See, that first word there -- "Obey" is the start of your problem. Healthy authority isn't about control; it's not about "do what I tell you." That's where weirdness starts. Instead, it's about choice and boundaries, specifically authority respecting the fact that you have ultimate authority over yourself and you understanding that your choices have consequences when you violate boundaries.

Oh ya, your entire point is stop being different and be just like everyone else but you totally are just the 'ultimate authority over yourself.'


Giving a better explanation and better explaining my point, normal has nothing to do with personal preferences, hobbies, day to day actions, etc. It has to do with being able to function and socialize with others in a healthy manner, and that has nothing to do with force and obedience, but instead choosing behaviors that have a positive outcome and balance your needs with the needs of others.
 
2018-02-09 02:21:22 PM  

Leandros A: I have no idea what gender orientation even is but at least where I live, it's definitely the boys who ask the girls (we're a bit traditional)

I assume Greece is where you live (andros). During 1997 - 2001 I was working in both Greece and Turkey because of my employment by a German company. I can assure you, both Greek and Turkish women asked me out. Girls turn into women.
 
2018-02-09 02:25:00 PM  

Delay: Leandros A: I have no idea what gender orientation even is but at least where I live, it's definitely the boys who ask the girls (we're a bit traditional)
I assume Greece is where you live (andros). During 1997 - 2001 I was working in both Greece and Turkey because of my employment by a German company. I can assure you, both Greek and Turkish women asked me out. Girls turn into women.


Yes, I live in Athens. Middle/high school dynamics are pretty rigid boy-asks-girl still. Usually, within a pre-existing friend group so it's not usually awkward. We're big on friends first here.
 
2018-02-09 02:34:12 PM  

winedrinkingman: Mixed feelings.  Girls should have the right to refuse having to interact with boys who make them uncomfortable on the one hand.  On the other hand, you are going to have the lonely, depressed boys getting rejected by everyone, and feeling even more lonely, depressed and rejected.

Maybe have the kids, of both genders, make a secret list of who they want to dance with, turn it into the teacher, and then assign dances?  I can see flaws in that too though.


Speaking as a kid who was depressed, lonely, and had issues with rejection...

...teach them how to accept rejection. Trying to play matchmaker for them will only make it worse.

/extrapolating from a data point of one, but they probably don't want to be at the dance anyway.
 
2018-02-09 02:38:12 PM  

dkulprit: ajgeek: On the one hand: this rule is intended to give kids who normally have no chance whatsoever to actually have a chance and maybe, MAYBE others will realize that the kid isn't such a freak after all.

On the other hand: A no-refusal rule now == rape? Because that's the road this article wants us to head down.

/I took a lot of rejection as a kid.

Rejection is a good thing to learn.   I learned it myself.   But no,  they aren't saying that it equals rape, but it is not setting a good example that girls don't have a voice.


It's teaching them that they don't have control over their own person. That's what rape culture* is really about, the idea that people can't refuse physical contact.

*that wooshing sound you heard was every MRA's asshole puckering.
 
2018-02-09 02:47:08 PM  
See how much easier sex robots will make things?

No's would never become an issue, even in dance class.  Everybody happy.
 
2018-02-09 02:50:43 PM  

webron: I am sorry that you faced rejection. But teaching little girls that they can't say no is a terrible thing. If you can't see that, you are being willfully blind.

If you think that this would stop kids from being cruel little monsters to each other, you are dreaming. It is a problem that should be addressed, but this is not the way and this is harmful.


I don't disagree. I think this wasn't the way to pull it off, in spite of what would obviously have been a huge help to me when I was in that age group. My continued point is the article, specifically the mother, took this argument to a reduction to absurdity fallacy almost instantly. What's more likely: that little pretty Alice had to dance with that horrible Jimmy and she's worried about what her friends will say the next day, or she was worried that Jimmy now feels he has carte blanche to rape her endlessly because an adult put a rule in play? Are we really teaching our girls so young that everyone is out to rape you?

dkulprit: Rejection is a good thing to learn. I learned it myself. But no, they aren't saying that it equals rape, but it is not setting a good example that girls don't have a voice.


I'm disinclined to agree. Perhaps I'm reading too much into it; I must in good conscience admit as much. But the rule was "no rejection," not, "no rejection by girls." Now a mom is spinning it to mean that girls have no way to say no at a voluntary dance that had these rules posted many times before. Something doesn't add up, and as above, I believe a reduction to absurdity logical fallacy seems to be at play.
 
2018-02-09 02:56:05 PM  

EmptyCup: 5th and 3rd grade.


Just be prepared, anything can happen.  I have two nieces who are a good example here.  They were both really social, no problems, till more recently.  The younger one (5th grade) is the having the hardest time.  This year the other girls are turning on her, hard.  My sis has her hands full trying to keep the youngest from being depressed all the time.  I've noticed a big difference in how she's not the bubbly self she used to be.  The older one (7th grade) wasn't having that problem, mostly because she's drawing a lot of attention from boys.  However, her issue was when she considered leaving the figure skating world for cheerleading.  It seems the other cheerleaders aren't nearly as nice, and she wants out.  I'm not surprised, I recall how evil cheerleaders can be, and the figure skating club are fairly good sports during competitions.  Granted that isn't always the case, but it works in our club.

My oldest had really bad bullies, dealt with them for 3 years.  It helped him a lot we were all over the school to do something, then took homeschooling as an option to help him.  He's very social, had no issues leaving home, fitting into the Navy.  We're not worried about him not doing well.  The hardest part of being a parent isn't just understanding your kid, it's trying to understanding all the other kids your kid is dealing with.  They need your wisdom in working out things.
 
2018-02-09 03:22:01 PM  

hubiestubert: Nadie_AZ: Can she ask the boys she wants to dance with and bypass the ones she doesn't? Or is girls asking boys to dance still considered witchcraft?

It isn't witchcraft, but it IS the road that leads to witchcraft and lesbianism...


A former US senator who served less than ten years ago actually said something similar.
 
2018-02-09 03:23:27 PM  
Oh hell NO. if i had a daughter attending that school she would not be going to that dance.   I would also move my kids out of that school district if changes in policy and administrators were not made.

No one should be forced to dance or do anything else with any one they do not wish to do any thing with.
 
2018-02-09 03:31:38 PM  
REALLY wants to attend

assets.change.orgView Full Size
 
2018-02-09 03:44:48 PM  

El Dudereno: hubiestubert: Nadie_AZ: Can she ask the boys she wants to dance with and bypass the ones she doesn't? Or is girls asking boys to dance still considered witchcraft?

It isn't witchcraft, but it IS the road that leads to witchcraft and lesbianism...

A former US senator who served less than ten years ago actually said something similar.


I thought it was a reference to

i.pinimg.comView Full Size
 
2018-02-09 03:47:42 PM  

Thong_of_Zardoz: I was a fat, awkward kid in school.

I have every confidence that even if these girls are forced to dance, they will, in no uncertain terms, let the ugly boys know how utterly undesirable, gross, and undeserving of human contact they are.

/why yes, the wounds run deep... why do you ask?


Yeah, not really sure who this is helping. I'd rather have a quick "ew no" than a few minutes of "ewwwwww grooooossss, you're grooooosssssss, i need to go wash my haaaaaands".
That being said, I wasn't gross, I was just one of the only kids with a skin shade a couple deviations darker than "exemplary aryan". There were some gross kids. there were some AWFUL kids back in the "boys will be boys, let's just sweep it under the rug" days and I can't imagine forcing girls to dance with them just to spare their feelings. In some cases, rejection is good. In other cases it hurts for no good reason. either way, you don't force a girl to dance with somebody, that's just wrong.

Donald_McRonald: You're telling me a state where the majority of people at least nominally belong to a weird, farked-up, patriarchal church have weird, farked-up, patriarchal bullshiat going on in their lives?


is this bait, or did you not RTFA or any of the comments yet?

cefm: Also a good opportunity for 6th graders to learn how to question the authority of teachers.


My favorite teachers were ones who would slip something ridiculously untrue into the lesson and then yell at everybody for not paying enough attention to ask about it.
 
2018-02-09 04:19:53 PM  

ajgeek: webron: I am sorry that you faced rejection. But teaching little girls that they can't say no is a terrible thing. If you can't see that, you are being willfully blind.

If you think that this would stop kids from being cruel little monsters to each other, you are dreaming. It is a problem that should be addressed, but this is not the way and this is harmful.

I don't disagree. I think this wasn't the way to pull it off, in spite of what would obviously have been a huge help to me when I was in that age group. My continued point is the article, specifically the mother, took this argument to a reduction to absurdity fallacy almost instantly. What's more likely: that little pretty Alice had to dance with that horrible Jimmy and she's worried about what her friends will say the next day, or she was worried that Jimmy now feels he has carte blanche to rape her endlessly because an adult put a rule in play? Are we really teaching our girls so young that everyone is out to rape you?

dkulprit: Rejection is a good thing to learn. I learned it myself. But no, they aren't saying that it equals rape, but it is not setting a good example that girls don't have a voice.

I'm disinclined to agree. Perhaps I'm reading too much into it; I must in good conscience admit as much. But the rule was "no rejection," not, "no rejection by girls." Now a mom is spinning it to mean that girls have no way to say no at a voluntary dance that had these rules posted many times before. Something doesn't add up, and as above, I believe a reduction to absurdity logical fallacy seems to be at play.


What does it matter why Alice doesn't want to dance with Jimmy? She should be allowed to make such a decision, and encouraged to respectfully but clearly decline. Whether it's because she's worried about her social standing, or Jimmy doesn't brush his teeth, or she has no interest in dancing with Jimmy or Billy or Johnny, and would rather dance with Sara. She should not be forced to dance with, hug, or have any other physical contact that she doesn't want - and should be allowed to do those things when and with whom she wishes. And it doesn't matter whether you or I think her concerns about her social standing are a good reason to reject Jimmy.

As for your second paragraph, I agree that the rule isn't just about girls.  But boys should also not he compelled to dance with people they don't want to.
 
2018-02-09 04:44:06 PM  

Bathroom Samurai: Why is consent so hard for people to understand?

These are the only rules a dance needs:
1) Any person can ask another person to dance.
B) It is OK to respectfully decline a request to dance.
III) A declined offer must be accepted with quiet dignity and grace.


What quiet dignity and grace might look like:
img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2018-02-09 05:04:25 PM  

Delay: This is from years ago. My 6th grade made learning dances part of PE. This was roughly the time when it was widely understood that cooties were a game and not real.
No one asked anybody to dance. Boys formed one line, girls formed another. The teachers paired everybody up starting from the front of each line. It was rather easy for both girls and boys to adjust their positions in line and be assigned a tolerable dance buddy. Delayed thanks Denise.


Same here. What started as square dancing turned to getting in a play, then shredding Kansas' Carry on my wayward Son on my guitar with my cousin. Started me out to dropping 60lbs and completely changing how I live my life.

Still doesn't excuse the fact the girls have been told they can't say no.
 
2018-02-09 05:49:06 PM  
Truly, there is no better feeling in the world than constantly wondering if someone is spending time with you because they want to or because they have to.

Seriously, I understand their intentions, but I don't think they thought this all the way through.
 
2018-02-09 06:19:50 PM  
My fifth grade teacher was Participation Hitler.  That's not a name I made up; she actually called herself "Participation Hitler" in class.  I never went to any school dances at that school (or really to any dance, ever), but I wouldn't surprise me if Participation Hitler was there at those dances doing this exact thing, forcing kids to dance with people they didn't want to, because Participation is God and No Thanks is the Devil.
 
2018-02-09 06:32:20 PM  

Delay: This was roughly the time when it was widely understood that cooties were a game and not real.


WHAT?
 
2018-02-09 07:12:17 PM  

Teufel Ritter: catmandu: Harry Wagstaff: Some people just don't like to dance regardless of who is asking.

Then why are they at a school dance? These are not mandatory activities.

I hated dancing so I only went to the homecoming dances in Jr. High and HS because they were the ones that had a live band.

Did you just incredlously ask why kids who don't like to dance would go to a dance and then provide a reason for such behavior a sentence later?


No I didn't I did not go to dances, I went to concerts.
 
2018-02-09 08:10:31 PM  
how about schools not have dances
 
2018-02-09 09:04:04 PM  

Darth_Lukecash: ArcadianRefugee: ajgeek: On the one hand: this rule is intended to give kids who normally have no chance whatsoever to actually have a chance and maybe, MAYBE others will realize that the kid isn't such a freak after all.

On the flip side, a little rejection once in a while might prevent people from growing up and thinking they are the smartest, best-looking, most talented, most successful person with the hugest audiences and highest ratings ever and most votes ever*.

Sometimes, it's good to hear "no".

And conversely, always being rejected by your peers can destroy a person. Sometimes one yes can make a huge difference in the world.

The yes policy is for the benifit of people who are shy, low confidence and people who are snobby, pompous.

The popular people might learn the unpopular aren't so bad. And popularity is nothing.


Hi. I was the unpopular. My entire class ganged up on me; I was ignored by so many people I legitimately thought I could turn invisible until high school; and generally I was no one to everyone.

People get to say no to me. That is their fundamental right. That doesn't mean a parent shouldn't have taken them aside and said 'she's weird because she's autistic, but she's not bad'--but if they still wanted not to play with me, they had every right not to. And children most certainly get to decide who they'll learn about romance with. You do not get to mandate that.
 
2018-02-09 09:11:28 PM  

PsiChick: Darth_Lukecash: ArcadianRefugee: ajgeek: On the one hand: this rule is intended to give kids who normally have no chance whatsoever to actually have a chance and maybe, MAYBE others will realize that the kid isn't such a freak after all.

On the flip side, a little rejection once in a while might prevent people from growing up and thinking they are the smartest, best-looking, most talented, most successful person with the hugest audiences and highest ratings ever and most votes ever*.

Sometimes, it's good to hear "no".

And conversely, always being rejected by your peers can destroy a person. Sometimes one yes can make a huge difference in the world.

The yes policy is for the benifit of people who are shy, low confidence and people who are snobby, pompous.

The popular people might learn the unpopular aren't so bad. And popularity is nothing.

Hi. I was the unpopular. My entire class ganged up on me; I was ignored by so many people I legitimately thought I could turn invisible until high school; and generally I was no one to everyone.

People get to say no to me. That is their fundamental right. That doesn't mean a parent shouldn't have taken them aside and said 'she's weird because she's autistic, but she's not bad'--but if they still wanted not to play with me, they had every right not to. And children most certainly get to decide who they'll learn about romance with. You do not get to mandate that.


These are six graders. Still a lot of lessons on socialization still left to learn.

Junior high is where dreams are crushed forever.

We are a social animal. To alienate and ostracize a member of society because they do not meet the level of "perfection" is wrong.
 
2018-02-09 09:11:42 PM  
img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2018-02-09 11:26:45 PM  

Darth_Lukecash: PsiChick: Darth_Lukecash: ArcadianRefugee: ajgeek: On the one hand: this rule is intended to give kids who normally have no chance whatsoever to actually have a chance and maybe, MAYBE others will realize that the kid isn't such a freak after all.

On the flip side, a little rejection once in a while might prevent people from growing up and thinking they are the smartest, best-looking, most talented, most successful person with the hugest audiences and highest ratings ever and most votes ever*.

Sometimes, it's good to hear "no".

And conversely, always being rejected by your peers can destroy a person. Sometimes one yes can make a huge difference in the world.

The yes policy is for the benifit of people who are shy, low confidence and people who are snobby, pompous.

The popular people might learn the unpopular aren't so bad. And popularity is nothing.

Hi. I was the unpopular. My entire class ganged up on me; I was ignored by so many people I legitimately thought I could turn invisible until high school; and generally I was no one to everyone.

People get to say no to me. That is their fundamental right. That doesn't mean a parent shouldn't have taken them aside and said 'she's weird because she's autistic, but she's not bad'--but if they still wanted not to play with me, they had every right not to. And children most certainly get to decide who they'll learn about romance with. You do not get to mandate that.

These are six graders. Still a lot of lessons on socialization still left to learn.

Junior high is where dreams are crushed forever.

We are a social animal. To alienate and ostracize a member of society because they do not meet the level of "perfection" is wrong.


You mean like the junior high I went to, which was grades 6/7/8?
 
2018-02-10 12:08:46 AM  

Delay: Delay: This is from years ago. My 6th grade made learning dances part of PE. This was roughly the time when it was widely understood that cooties were a game and not real.
No one asked anybody to dance. Boys formed one line, girls formed another. The teachers paired everybody up starting from the front of each line. It was rather easy for both girls and boys to adjust their positions in line and be assigned a tolerable dance buddy. Delayed thanks Denise.

Forgot the image: [img.fark.net image 799x600]


Oh man, I haven't thought about that game in DECADES. All I remember is how wobbly it was!
 
2018-02-10 01:15:38 AM  

foxyshadis: Oh man, I haven't thought about that game in DECADES. All I remember is how wobbly it was!


Worse, the peg-parts kept falling out of the holes, and the body and head pieces would split at the seams.

The design and the plastic have been changed since.  It is still in production.
 
2018-02-10 08:12:36 AM  

Bandito King: gyorg: The standard for social dance is you may deny any dance, but you must then sit out that song.  Goes for leads or follows who are asked.  Honestly, I think it's fair.  You don't have to dance with everyone, but if you want to dance with a specific someone, you should ask them, not reject people until you get what you want.  It's not about "you don't have control" but more "you have to be gracious to everyone".

For argentine tango there's a whole standard to it.  Leads will look at follows sitting around the floor.  If they make eye contact, it means they'll dance and the lead walks up and asks them.  If they avert their eyes, the lead knows it'll be rejection and never asks.  Once you agree to dance, you dance 3 songs.

Grandma Mabel and her rules of etiquette can fark off. I have always maintained the right to refuse to dance and anyone else should be able to do the same.

No.


It turns out you're not a special snowflake. We had people like you and inglixthemad come to dances. People like you, inglixthemad, and other creepers get found out pretty quickly and don't come back.  You can always tell the guy especially who isn't there to enjoy dancing but is really hoping to find someone to sleep with.  It's pathetic.  They normally end up down at the UNCE UNCE UNCE club grinding on girls or trying desperately to get noticed by the hottest guy.

Social dancing is a self-correcting social dynamic.  The people who refuse to participate are simply excluded.  Everyone else has a fun time and they feel left out and end up not showing up again.

A dance isn't a try out for sex. Even though a lot of people start dancing to find a relationship, the people that stay stay because they enjoy dancing.  Guys dance together.  Girls dance together.  And people trying to get laid go dance at a club selling $6 miller lite and fireball shots.  I truly feel sorry for those folks because they're missing social interactions they desperately need to learn and connections to other people they'll never get at the club.

P.S.  I met my wife dancing.  Many of our friends met their spouses dancing.  It happens.  A lot.  But none of them were treating their dances like tryouts.  (I wasn't there looking for a relationship at all. I'd just moved into town and was looking to make friends.  Social dance scenes are an instant social circle anywhere you go.)
 
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