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(Boing Boing)   Self-driving cars have problems detecting bicycles. Really, it seems like a self-correcting issue   ( boingboing.net) divider line
    More: Interesting, George Mason University, contributor Jana Košecká, current workaround options, Fairfax County, Virginia, Virginia, Bicycle, Cycling, Arlington County, Virginia  
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739 clicks; posted to Geek » on 09 Feb 2018 at 12:15 AM (23 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2018-02-08 11:43:01 PM  
It's just trying to get 20 points.
 
2018-02-09 12:20:15 AM  
Darwin subroutine at work.
 
2018-02-09 12:20:44 AM  
Today on Bug or Feature
 
2018-02-09 12:28:05 AM  
Wait until they find out it doesn't detect black people either
 
2018-02-09 12:45:27 AM  
Is this about true self-driving cars, or Teslas with lazy drivers again?

/again, the hate for people who exercise is strong in Fark.
 
2018-02-09 12:49:38 AM  
Pray no one rides a unicycle in front of a self driving car.
 
2018-02-09 12:53:50 AM  
Well, duh. If they can't detect a F**KIN' FIRE TRUCK how are they going to see a bicycle?

So where are all those brilliant douchebags who sneered at people for saying self-driving technology wasn't ready yet? Are they going to chime in on this?
 
2018-02-09 01:00:09 AM  

bingethinker: Well, duh. If they can't detect a F**KIN' FIRE TRUCK how are they going to see a bicycle?

So where are all those brilliant douchebags who sneered at people for saying self-driving technology wasn't ready yet? Are they going to chime in on this?


It appears jaywalking and riding bicycles should finally be capital offenses.

/everything is proceeding as I have foreseen
 
2018-02-09 01:05:14 AM  
So really no better than normal drivers.
 
2018-02-09 01:08:41 AM  

bingethinker: Well, duh. If they can't detect a F**KIN' FIRE TRUCK how are they going to see a bicycle?

So where are all those brilliant douchebags who sneered at people for saying self-driving technology wasn't ready yet? Are they going to chime in on this?


I've never see someone claim self-driving cars were ready. Never.

Are you really claiming someone has?
 
2018-02-09 01:19:22 AM  

Smackledorfer: bingethinker: Well, duh. If they can't detect a F**KIN' FIRE TRUCK how are they going to see a bicycle?

So where are all those brilliant douchebags who sneered at people for saying self-driving technology wasn't ready yet? Are they going to chime in on this?

I've never see someone claim self-driving cars were ready. Never.

Are you really claiming someone has?


They're ready. Just like a movie tie-in videogame.
 
2018-02-09 01:55:37 AM  
No, you're thinking of autocannibalism.
 
2018-02-09 01:59:06 AM  
Those smug, self-satisfied hipsters will ruin the future for us as well as the present.
 
2018-02-09 02:05:25 AM  

LoneWolf343: Is this about true self-driving cars, or Teslas with lazy drivers again?

/again, the hate for people who exercise is strong in Fark.


I've never had an athlete blow through a red light and try to kiss my windshield.

Cyclists otoh...
 
2018-02-09 02:17:09 AM  

Smackledorfer: bingethinker: Well, duh. If they can't detect a F**KIN' FIRE TRUCK how are they going to see a bicycle?

So where are all those brilliant douchebags who sneered at people for saying self-driving technology wasn't ready yet? Are they going to chime in on this?

I've never see someone claim self-driving cars were ready. Never.

Are you really claiming someone has?


Hah. I have a few people farkied as fast back as 2015 saying they are ready. I'm sure the main login will be by soon.
 
2018-02-09 02:20:29 AM  

LoneWolf343: Is this about true self-driving cars, or Teslas with lazy drivers again?

/again, the hate for people who exercise is strong in Fark.


the hate for people who eat food is right up there too. but hey, drunk drivers and godless heathens rank high, so there's that.
 
2018-02-09 03:16:05 AM  

Pointy Tail of Satan: Pray no one rides a unicycle in front of a self driving car.


inhabitat.comView Full Size
 
2018-02-09 03:24:53 AM  
Sounds like a matter of changing how the cameras detect the cyclist. Likely the sensors are designed to pick up things in a certain vertical range, maybe change how it picks up things in front of it.
 
2018-02-09 03:28:22 AM  

spamdog: Wait until they find out it doesn't detect black people either


img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2018-02-09 03:36:52 AM  

BafflerMeal: Smackledorfer: bingethinker: Well, duh. If they can't detect a F**KIN' FIRE TRUCK how are they going to see a bicycle?

So where are all those brilliant douchebags who sneered at people for saying self-driving technology wasn't ready yet? Are they going to chime in on this?

I've never see someone claim self-driving cars were ready. Never.

Are you really claiming someone has?

Hah. I have a few people farkied as fast back as 2015 saying they are ready. I'm sure the main login will be by soon.


I heard that CMA had a prototype that went coast to coast on its own back in '99-'01 ish.  I've basically had a whole life since then, but I remember that conversation.

So what's happened since is all tweaking and improvements. If just wanted autopiloted autos it's well solved.
 
2018-02-09 03:41:49 AM  
loonatic112358:

Wrong approach.

Get bicycles off of automobile streets!

Your body, your house, your electronics, your tools, your toys: every system in your life has dedicated circulatory lines. It just works better.

Cities need reworked to accommodate cyclists and automobiles seperately. The future is coming. Time to get ready for it
 
2018-02-09 04:37:43 AM  

doglover: loonatic112358:

Wrong approach.

Get bicycles off of automobile streets!

Your body, your house, your electronics, your tools, your toys: every system in your life has dedicated circulatory lines. It just works better.

Cities need reworked to accommodate cyclists and automobiles seperately. The future is coming. Time to get ready for it


You'd never be able to avoid a bicycle crossing a road way unless you built a grade separate system for bicyclists so making the vehicles able to detect the biker makes sense.

Also, how does it handle motorcycles and people in horseback
 
2018-02-09 05:03:50 AM  

loonatic112358: doglover: loonatic112358:

Wrong approach.

Get bicycles off of automobile streets!

Your body, your house, your electronics, your tools, your toys: every system in your life has dedicated circulatory lines. It just works better.

Cities need reworked to accommodate cyclists and automobiles seperately. The future is coming. Time to get ready for it

You'd never be able to avoid a bicycle crossing a road way unless you built a grade separate system for bicyclists so making the vehicles able to detect the biker makes sense.

Also, how does it handle motorcycles and people in horseback


I read that as a "grate separate system" and imagined grates that filter out the bicycles from traffic to make it convenient for other vehicles. Like this:

floridacyclinglaw.comView Full Size
 
2018-02-09 05:14:09 AM  

doglover: I heard that CMA had a prototype that went coast to coast on its own back in '99-'01 ish.  I've basically had a whole life since then, but I remember that conversation.

So what's happened since is all tweaking and improvements. If just wanted autopiloted autos it's well solved.


I don't agree. By analogy, ELIZA passed the Turing test in 1966 or so, so you could conclude from that that AI has just been tweaking and improvements since then...
 
2018-02-09 05:39:06 AM  
Louis C.K. 'Of course ... But Maybe'
Youtube 0O5h4enjrHw
 
2018-02-09 06:14:27 AM  
Ahh Viagra for gasolinebrains
 
2018-02-09 07:37:33 AM  

Smackledorfer: bingethinker: Well, duh. If they can't detect a F**KIN' FIRE TRUCK how are they going to see a bicycle?

So where are all those brilliant douchebags who sneered at people for saying self-driving technology wasn't ready yet? Are they going to chime in on this?

I've never see someone claim self-driving cars were ready. Never.

Are you really claiming someone has?


Every. Damn. Thread.

Every damn thread I'm told that having programmed since the age of 10 and writing AI software for the military doesn't qualify me to understand the real state of the art shiat that people are doing today.

I then get told how computers are somehow already solving problems that just a day or two ago I had read papers from the best minds working on the problem saying "nope, we have ideas to get around that, but nothing that will actually work in reality."

And then I get to hear about how I am going to be put out of work by an inanimate object. And that I'm just bitter.
 
2018-02-09 07:47:24 AM  

loonatic112358: Sounds like a matter of changing how the cameras detect the cyclist. Likely the sensors are designed to pick up things in a certain vertical range, maybe change how it picks up things in front of it.


The problem is that computers don't "see". They can only find patterns. They can do amazing things with those patterns, but there is no "aha" going on behind the scenes. It's a soup of software trying to find something that it recognizes in a bucket of pixels that are streaming in from a camera.

Produce a something "new" and the computer can either ignore it or slam on the brakes and await guidance from on high about how to proceed. Most of these systems are in ignore mode, because otherwise our world is so full of detail on novel inputs that a care would literally never move.

A new billboard would cripple the driverless network if we had the damn things stop on unexpected input.

As opposed to people being crippled is computers ignore them in a crosswalk or bike path.

There is no "winning" with this problem.
 
2018-02-09 07:59:27 AM  
A really good read for any of these threads.

The Smart, the Stupid, and the Catastrophically Scary: An Interview with an Anonymous Data Scientist

/worked with engineers for autonomous vehicles (more than one company)
/none of the people doing the actual work believe the hype
 
2018-02-09 08:40:52 AM  
They just need self-riding bikes
 
2018-02-09 09:13:43 AM  

Evil Twin Skippy: Smackledorfer: bingethinker: Well, duh. If they can't detect a F**KIN' FIRE TRUCK how are they going to see a bicycle?

So where are all those brilliant douchebags who sneered at people for saying self-driving technology wasn't ready yet? Are they going to chime in on this?

I've never see someone claim self-driving cars were ready. Never.

Are you really claiming someone has?

Every. Damn. Thread.

Every damn thread I'm told that having programmed since the age of 10 and writing AI software for the military doesn't qualify me to understand the real state of the art shiat that people are doing today.

I then get told how computers are somehow already solving problems that just a day or two ago I had read papers from the best minds working on the problem saying "nope, we have ideas to get around that, but nothing that will actually work in reality."

And then I get to hear about how I am going to be put out of work by an inanimate object. And that I'm just bitter.


You're going to be put out of work by a self programming toaster and you're just bitter about it.
 
2018-02-09 09:16:33 AM  

Bugerz: Evil Twin Skippy: Smackledorfer: bingethinker: Well, duh. If they can't detect a F**KIN' FIRE TRUCK how are they going to see a bicycle?

So where are all those brilliant douchebags who sneered at people for saying self-driving technology wasn't ready yet? Are they going to chime in on this?

I've never see someone claim self-driving cars were ready. Never.

Are you really claiming someone has?

Every. Damn. Thread.

Every damn thread I'm told that having programmed since the age of 10 and writing AI software for the military doesn't qualify me to understand the real state of the art shiat that people are doing today.

I then get told how computers are somehow already solving problems that just a day or two ago I had read papers from the best minds working on the problem saying "nope, we have ideas to get around that, but nothing that will actually work in reality."

And then I get to hear about how I am going to be put out of work by an inanimate object. And that I'm just bitter.

You're going to be put out of work by a self programming toaster and you're just bitter about it.


Nah, I'm just bitter. It's my thing
 
2018-02-09 10:07:54 AM  

Evil Twin Skippy: The problem is that computers don't "see". They can only find patterns.


Replace "computer" with "people", and your statement is still correct.  Seeing isn't a magical process that is specific to these creatures made of unicorn farts and sparkles called "hoomans".

We find patterns and associate them with concepts.  That's how the human mind works (in terms of vision and anticipation).  The sensing systems being developed for self driving cars do the same thing.  Right now, they're basically toddlers, and only understand a few basic things.  Wear a different perfume and a hoodie, and the 12 month old may not recognize their own mother.  Kids don't realize fire is dangerous, or electrical sockets will kill you, or swinging a knife can hurt people.  They learn over time and with experience.

The systems that we create for self-driving cars are the same way.  We expose them to stimuli - some real, some simulated - and they learn permutations of patterns.  In some cases they'll learn it better than us, sometimes worse.  In general, they're going to be better than us in most circumstances, though there are some things that will ultimately be difficult for them.  Dense city driving, heavy pedestrian areas, etc.  We'll adapt, they'll learn.  Highway driving is going to be made many times more efficient, and far less dangerous.  City driving?  That's a harder area to improve, but they'll get there.

The best part is that unlike humans that take 16 years to get up to speed, work well for a few decades, then degrade to uselessness, the algorithms that handle self-driving cars only improve over time.  It's like a student that just keeps getting better.  We upgrade their body, so the get faster and stronger, and their mind makes more connections and gets more speed.  Once they figure something out, we don't need to teach them again.

In short - they kinda suck now.  But eventually, they're going to be a LOT better than us.
 
2018-02-09 10:18:37 AM  
So, whats the problem?
 
2018-02-09 10:33:54 AM  

Bugerz: Evil Twin Skippy: Smackledorfer: bingethinker: Well, duh. If they can't detect a F**KIN' FIRE TRUCK how are they going to see a bicycle?

So where are all those brilliant douchebags who sneered at people for saying self-driving technology wasn't ready yet? Are they going to chime in on this?

I've never see someone claim self-driving cars were ready. Never.

Are you really claiming someone has?

Every. Damn. Thread.

Every damn thread I'm told that having programmed since the age of 10 and writing AI software for the military doesn't qualify me to understand the real state of the art shiat that people are doing today.

I then get told how computers are somehow already solving problems that just a day or two ago I had read papers from the best minds working on the problem saying "nope, we have ideas to get around that, but nothing that will actually work in reality."

And then I get to hear about how I am going to be put out of work by an inanimate object. And that I'm just bitter.

You're going to be put out of work by a self programming toaster and you're just bitter about it.


Would you like some toast?

reddwarf.co.ukView Full Size
 
2018-02-09 10:43:06 AM  

doglover: Get bicycles off of automobile streets!



Get your car off of the bicycle streets.
 
2018-02-09 10:54:02 AM  

doglover: loonatic112358:

Wrong approach.

Get bicycles off of automobile streets!

Your body, your house, your electronics, your tools, your toys: every system in your life has dedicated circulatory lines. It just works better.

Cities need reworked to accommodate cyclists and automobiles seperately. The future is coming. Time to get ready for it


The accidents happen at intersections.

You can separate bicycles and cars somewhat, but ultimately they're trying to go to the same place.

/I can bicycle from one town, to another 20 miles away, without sharing the road with a car. But that's because the bicycle track is routed along the old railway track.
//People having a drivers license need to learn to drive.
 
2018-02-09 11:12:04 AM  
Honestly read that as "Self driving cars have problems deflecting bicycles."

Seems like they are doing just fine to me.
 
2018-02-09 11:13:25 AM  

Ketchuponsteak: doglover: loonatic112358:

Wrong approach.

Get bicycles off of automobile streets!

Your body, your house, your electronics, your tools, your toys: every system in your life has dedicated circulatory lines. It just works better.

Cities need reworked to accommodate cyclists and automobiles seperately. The future is coming. Time to get ready for it

The accidents happen at intersections.

You can separate bicycles and cars somewhat, but ultimately they're trying to go to the same place.

/I can bicycle from one town, to another 20 miles away, without sharing the road with a car. But that's because the bicycle track is routed along the old railway track.
//People having a drivers license need to learn to drive.


I miss living in the Eugene/Springfield, OR area back in the late-80's-mid 90's. ( paved off road paths; didn't have to deal with many cars on my daily commute...)

/ it's probably not as pleasant now....
 
2018-02-09 11:14:57 AM  

Ketchuponsteak: doglover: loonatic112358:

Wrong approach.

Get bicycles off of automobile streets!

Your body, your house, your electronics, your tools, your toys: every system in your life has dedicated circulatory lines. It just works better.

Cities need reworked to accommodate cyclists and automobiles seperately. The future is coming. Time to get ready for it

The accidents happen at intersections.

You can separate bicycles and cars somewhat, but ultimately they're trying to go to the same place.

/I can bicycle from one town, to another 20 miles away, without sharing the road with a car. But that's because the bicycle track is routed along the old railway track.
//People having a drivers license need to learn to drive.


Even in Copenhagen (largely heralded as the most bicycle friendly city on earth) where bicycles generally have a separate track everyone must use the same intersections.

/maybe driver education should more thorough and strict in the US
/who am I kidding. 50 states, 50 sets of regs
 
2018-02-09 11:15:24 AM  

LoneWolf343: Is this about true self-driving cars, or Teslas with lazy drivers again?

/again, the hate for people who exercise is strong in Fark.


I know what you mean. Earlier this week, I spent hours watching a Tesla driver who never seemed to move.
 
2018-02-09 12:10:52 PM  
I usually bike to work, and everybody is testing their self-driving cars nearby in the Phoenix metro area.  Just this tuesday, a Waymo van didn't notice me behind another car, and started to pull out before panic-stopping itself so hard it practically kissed the asphalt with the front bumper.

Intel's cars are hyper-cautious, which is almost more annoying-- when they're behind me, they won't pass, even when I'm in the bike lane.  They just creep along in my blind spot at 25mph.  I'd be happier if they just blew by.

I haven't had a bicycle run-in with one of Uber's-- they're out and about, but so far they aren't testing on the roads I ride on.  I see them more further north.

But so far, even if they're not quite behaving like humans... I haven't had one do anything really dangerous.  And since I keep encountering them (I see at least one nearly every day), I know their algorithms are at least getting adjusted to recognize me.  Will they recognize other cyclists?  Who knows... but at least I'm in that database.
 
kab
2018-02-09 12:14:53 PM  
*reads article*  Huh.   Autonomous car advocates insisting that everyone around them cater to their preferences?   Must be a day that ends in day.

bingethinker: Well, duh. If they can't detect a F**KIN' FIRE TRUCK how are they going to see a bicycle?

So where are all those brilliant douchebags who sneered at people for saying self-driving technology wasn't ready yet? Are they going to chime in on this?


They're busy trying to modify their predictions.

Self driving cars will be the only things allowed on public roads in 3 5 10 15 20 years.

/and this time we mean it!
 
2018-02-09 12:53:22 PM  
Since it seems to come up every time anybody mentions a cyclist, I'm well aware that there are a lot of idiots on bicycles.  Well-behaved cyclists have to deal with them, too.  At least once a week, I run into somebody going the wrong way in the bike lane, which is just incredibly stupid.  There isn't room for two, so one of us is going to have to jump out into traffic.  There's arrows every hundred feet or so, just in case you didn't already know you ride on the right-hand side of the road.  Most don't signal their turns, merges, or stops, which means a couple of times I've nearly clobbered some other cyclist.  Lots blow stops and red lights.  And the very worst offenders are the roving packs of weekend warriors, who seem to think "there's a lot of us" means "we don't need to stop at the stop sign."

Part of the problem is that there's often an enabler telling them they can do these things.  I don't ride with the local bike shop's group rides anymore, because they're terrible about not stopping.  But there's a policeman who rides with them who assures the group that "it's fine, you won't get a ticket."  I'm sure he's right, especially if he's there in the rare event somebody is actually pulled over... but that doesn't make it legal or safe.  It just means he's too lazy to stop, and willing to bend the law for his group of spandex-buddies.

Like so many traffic issues, if the cops would ticket people not following the rules, that would probably help.  So would "driver's ed" and licensing with a test for cyclists to ride on anything but neighborhood streets or dedicated bike paths.
 
2018-02-09 02:23:25 PM  
"Self-driving cars have a hard time predicting bicycle movement" is just a nice of way saying cyclists do whatever they want.
 
2018-02-09 03:14:06 PM  

raygundan: Intel's cars are hyper-cautious, which is almost more annoying-- when they're behind me, they won't pass, even when I'm in the bike lane.  They just creep along in my blind spot at 25mph.  I'd be happier if they just blew by.


It's hilarious to me how nervous bicyclists get when I don't pass them when they're on a single-lane with a double-yellow.
 
2018-02-09 03:15:17 PM  

raygundan: Well-behaved cyclists have to deal with them, too.


What color is that unicorn?
 
2018-02-09 03:47:25 PM  

This text is now purple: raygundan: Well-behaved cyclists have to deal with them, too.

What color is that unicorn?


The bike is red.  The backpack is fluorescent green.  The jersey is either polka-dot or zebra stripes.  I look like a five-year-old picked my outfit, but nobody's ever going to claim I was hard to see. You can find me doing such exotic and exciting things as "signalling before I stop, and then stopping."
 
2018-02-09 03:52:24 PM  

This text is now purple: It's hilarious to me how nervous bicyclists get when I don't pass them when they're on a single-lane with a double-yellow.


If they're in a bike lane, go ahead and pass.  If there's no bike lane, you're doing it right-- in the two places I've lived, it would be illegal for you to pass in the situation you just described, and following behind is the behavior I'd expect.  I'll also point out that because of that, I avoid single-lane double-yellow roads without bike lanes like the plague.  Fastest I can manage is about 30mph, which means I'm slowing traffic even when I'm going all-out... so I don't ride there.

There may be different rules in other jurisdictions, though, but presumably you've looked them up and learned them since you live, drive, and/or ride there.
 
2018-02-09 04:00:43 PM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: is just a nice of way saying cyclists do whatever they want.


There's truth to that.  There are a lot of moron cyclists.  My own personal bane is the ones riding in the wrong direction in the bike lane.  But I can confirm from personal experience that Waymo's vehicles can't interpret correct bicycle turn signalling, either.  They err on the side of caution and will just sit there, though, so they've at least never failed unsafely near me on my bike-- but they definitely still have trouble predicting even when cyclists are behaving like they should.

I did see a google-branded one blow right through the end of a lane and keep driving at full highway speed on the shoulder as if it were a lane a year or two back, though... but that had nothing to do with bicycles.
 
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