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(New York Magazine)   US adopts the "it was like that when we got here" excuse and refuses to pay anything for Iraqi reconstruction   ( nymag.com) divider line
    More: Fail, United States, foreign policy, Trump, limited U.S. government, U.S. government resources, President Trump, quasi-isolationist foreign policy, Iraq War  
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1299 clicks; posted to Politics » on 09 Feb 2018 at 1:15 AM (23 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2018-02-08 09:56:34 PM  
But it's totally not like Viet Nam.

Really.
 
2018-02-08 09:58:30 PM  
He has embraced a foreign policy that increases America's involvement in policing the planet - while reducing the diplomatic and "soft power" tools it has for doing so. The result is a geopolitical strategy that is no more nationalist or isolationist than the one Trump inherited, but simply more violent and stupid.

VIOLENT - STUPID 2020!
 
2018-02-08 10:25:26 PM  
We've rebuilt it off and on but then those nice new rebuilt thing make such fun targets.
 
2018-02-08 10:40:44 PM  
Let Iran pay for it. They own it anyway.
 
2018-02-08 11:54:25 PM  
img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2018-02-08 11:56:17 PM  
Donnie doesn't like paying his own bills, let alone what happened when he wasn't even on the board. I mean, that's someone else's lookout, right? These people should have read the contracts.

How's that running the country like a business workin' out for y'all?
 
2018-02-09 01:18:31 AM  

Ivo Shandor: [img.fark.net image 640x480]


Has that asshole choked to death on a comb yet?
 
2018-02-09 01:18:52 AM  
What happened to Year Zero? It was supposed to be a gold rush not a quagmire.
 
2018-02-09 01:20:43 AM  
Seems like a good place to test experimental terraforming technology.
 
2018-02-09 01:21:37 AM  
"Look, your car was upside-down when I got here.  And as for your grandma, well, she shouldn't have mouthed off like that."
 
2018-02-09 01:26:08 AM  
"The result is a geopolitical strategy that is no more nationalist or isolationist than the one Trump inherited, but simply more violent and stupid."

Yep that definitely sounds like Donald.
 
2018-02-09 01:28:02 AM  

Purple_Urkle: What happened to Year Zero? It was supposed to be a gold rush not a quagmire.


Look, the troubles going on over there are going to last five days or five weeks or five months, but they certainly aren't going to last any longer than that.
 
2018-02-09 01:34:48 AM  
Once again, Republicans are the best recruitment tools an extremist organization could ask for.
 
stk
2018-02-09 01:43:07 AM  
Huh, Trump has never neglected to pay for construction before.
 
2018-02-09 01:49:59 AM  
It was all worth it to be greeted as liberators, though.
 
2018-02-09 01:56:04 AM  

Purple_Urkle: What happened to Year Zero? It was supposed to be a gold rush not a quagmire.


Without reconstruction funds and a likely to be smaller military presence (which Is say the next step will be making the Iraqis pay for) the country is quickly devolving to not just Year Zero, but back to Stone Age survival levels (outside the Green Zone of course.  Inside the Green Zone you've got Taco Bell).
 
2018-02-09 02:03:52 AM  
Iraq would have enough money to pay for it themselves if they hadn't wasted it on all those flowers and chocolates.
 
2018-02-09 02:15:38 AM  

Ivo Shandor: [img.fark.net image 640x480]


Onc again, the focus on potential instead of real numbers, and they wonder why their plans never work as proclaimed.
 
2018-02-09 02:15:47 AM  
Whether somebody personally was for or against the invasion of Iraq is immaterial to this specific matter, we broke it so therefore we own it and paying for it is something that I'd define as being our moral responsibility.

Even if somebody else feels that we shouldn't keep handing money over I think they're being shortsighted in that not doing so would push the shiites who generally run Iraq even further into the arms of Iran who would undoubtedly be more than happy to give out cash that would be tied to strings we don't want to see get pulled.

This is a situation where peaceniks and traditional isolationist conservatives come to the same conclusion and it is a wrong one. No, it will never be perfect over there but walking away both physically and financially would create even bigger problems than the ones we currently have.
 
2018-02-09 02:19:15 AM  

Ivo Shandor: [img.fark.net image 640x480]


That guy should be at the bottom of the ocean or under ADX Florence.
 
2018-02-09 02:21:59 AM  

Ow! That was my feelings!: Let Iran pay for it. They own it anyway.


You mean let them give it to terrorists to build on.

You know that's what will happen right?
 
2018-02-09 02:33:01 AM  
We don't pay for infrastructure here at home either so...
 
2018-02-09 02:37:46 AM  
This has been remarked upon before. Wannabe-dictator Trump has no respect for American "soft" power, which is just handing the initiative to other players, particularly both Russia and China, but others as well.
 
2018-02-09 02:50:46 AM  

starsrift: This has been remarked upon before. Wannabe-dictator Trump has no respect for American "soft" power, which is just handing the initiative to other players, particularly both Russia and China, but others as well.


That's been every Republican since Vietnam and the Nixon impeachment. They rely on the general stability of the world and are content to be king big-shot on a pile of gold in some castle because some asshole in jackboots and a comb mustache wont just match over there and take it. America, Canada, Russia, China; they don't care because they have money and can have thier little fiefdom re-enacting some cyberpunk dystopia novel being the rich guy in the castle.

And it farking works. That's the maddening part.
 
2018-02-09 03:03:46 AM  

WoodyHayes: Whether somebody personally was for or against the invasion of Iraq is immaterial to this specific matter, we broke it so therefore we own it and paying for it is something that I'd define as being our moral responsibility.

Even if somebody else feels that we shouldn't keep handing money over I think they're being shortsighted in that not doing so would push the shiites who generally run Iraq even further into the arms of Iran who would undoubtedly be more than happy to give out cash that would be tied to strings we don't want to see get pulled.

This is a situation where peaceniks and traditional isolationist conservatives come to the same conclusion and it is a wrong one. No, it will never be perfect over there but walking away both physically and financially would create even bigger problems than the ones we currently have.


Whether someone was personally for or against the 1954 partition of Vietnam is immaterial to this specific matter, we have committed to the defense of South Vietnam against Communist aggression so therefore we own it and supporting it is something that I'd define as being our moral responsibility.

Even if somebody else feels that we shouldn't keep escalating our involvement I think they're being shortsighted in that not doing so would push the village chiefs who generally run Vietnam even further into the arms of Ho Chi Minh who would undoubtedly be more than happy to give out cash that would be tied to strings we don't want to see get pulled.

This is a situation where peaceniks and traditional isolationist conservatives come to the same conclusion and it is a wrong one. No, it will never be perfect over there but walking away both physically and financially would create even bigger problems than the ones we currently have.
 
2018-02-09 03:14:28 AM  
img.fark.netView Full Size

Exactly where were those nukes they were looking for 15 years ago?
 
2018-02-09 03:22:51 AM  

AppleOptionEsc: starsrift: This has been remarked upon before. Wannabe-dictator Trump has no respect for American "soft" power, which is just handing the initiative to other players, particularly both Russia and China, but others as well.

That's been every Republican since Vietnam and the Nixon impeachment. They rely on the general stability of the world and are content to be king big-shot on a pile of gold in some castle because some asshole in jackboots and a comb mustache wont just match over there and take it. America, Canada, Russia, China; they don't care because they have money and can have thier little fiefdom re-enacting some cyberpunk dystopia novel being the rich guy in the castle.

And it farking works. That's the maddening part.


Ehhhh, I'm pretty sure I have to disagree, except in the case of Ford. I mean, the Cold War was won by soft power. And while Bush the Lesser blew up the sandbox, and essentially handed South America to China on a platter, his admin advanced a lot of soft power in Europe and Africa, and also with Asia, including China.
 
2018-02-09 03:33:18 AM  
Koldbern:
img.fark.netView Full Size

Exactly where were those nukes they were looking for 15 years ago?


Hidden in that little white car, that's why there's a soldier guarding it.
 
2018-02-09 03:52:01 AM  

WoodyHayes: Whether somebody personally was for or against the invasion of Iraq is immaterial to this specific matter, we broke it so therefore we own it and paying for it is something that I'd define as being our moral responsibility.

Even if somebody else feels that we shouldn't keep handing money over I think they're being shortsighted in that not doing so would push the shiites who generally run Iraq even further into the arms of Iran who would undoubtedly be more than happy to give out cash that would be tied to strings we don't want to see get pulled.

This is a situation where peaceniks and traditional isolationist conservatives come to the same conclusion and it is a wrong one. No, it will never be perfect over there but walking away both physically and financially would create even bigger problems than the ones we currently have.


How much have you paid into the Treasury for this above your tax obligations? The money has to come from somewhere. You first. Here's the link to contribute: https://www.pay.gov/publi​c/form/start/​23779454
 
2018-02-09 04:29:57 AM  

Alien Robot: WoodyHayes: Whether somebody personally was for or against the invasion of Iraq is immaterial to this specific matter, we broke it so therefore we own it and paying for it is something that I'd define as being our moral responsibility.

Even if somebody else feels that we shouldn't keep handing money over I think they're being shortsighted in that not doing so would push the shiites who generally run Iraq even further into the arms of Iran who would undoubtedly be more than happy to give out cash that would be tied to strings we don't want to see get pulled.

This is a situation where peaceniks and traditional isolationist conservatives come to the same conclusion and it is a wrong one. No, it will never be perfect over there but walking away both physically and financially would create even bigger problems than the ones we currently have.

How much have you paid into the Treasury for this above your tax obligations? The money has to come from somewhere. You first. Here's the link to contribute: https://www.pay.gov/public​/form/start/23779454


 Maybe Bush2 could've used your advice...
 
2018-02-09 04:31:58 AM  

I dont want to be on this planet anymore: Alien Robot: WoodyHayes: Whether somebody personally was for or against the invasion of Iraq is immaterial to this specific matter, we broke it so therefore we own it and paying for it is something that I'd define as being our moral responsibility.

Even if somebody else feels that we shouldn't keep handing money over I think they're being shortsighted in that not doing so would push the shiites who generally run Iraq even further into the arms of Iran who would undoubtedly be more than happy to give out cash that would be tied to strings we don't want to see get pulled.

This is a situation where peaceniks and traditional isolationist conservatives come to the same conclusion and it is a wrong one. No, it will never be perfect over there but walking away both physically and financially would create even bigger problems than the ones we currently have.

How much have you paid into the Treasury for this above your tax obligations? The money has to come from somewhere. You first. Here's the link to contribute: https://www.pay.gov/public​/form/start/23779454

 Maybe Bush2 could've used your advice...


   Maybe you guys could claw back a few sheckles from companies like Halliburton.
              HAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH, ya like that will happen.
 
2018-02-09 04:38:26 AM  

Alien Robot: How much have you paid into the Treasury for this above your tax obligations? The money has to come from somewhere. You first. Here's the link to contribute: https://www.pay.gov/public​/form/start/23779454


To quote from TFA: "In short, President Trump is happy to spend billions on a pound of cure, but not millions on an ounce of prevention. If killing bad guys is the objective, then money is no object; if stabilizing wartorn regions through humanitarian aid is the proposition, then "limited U.S. government resources alone cannot meet these current and pressing needs."

Why do you not mention paying for the blowing shiat up?
 
2018-02-09 05:04:07 AM  

Odin's Other Eye: Alien Robot: How much have you paid into the Treasury for this above your tax obligations? The money has to come from somewhere. You first. Here's the link to contribute: https://www.pay.gov/public​/form/start/23779454

To quote from TFA: "In short, President Trump is happy to spend billions on a pound of cure, but not millions on an ounce of prevention. If killing bad guys is the objective, then money is no object; if stabilizing wartorn regions through humanitarian aid is the proposition, then "limited U.S. government resources alone cannot meet these current and pressing needs."

Why do you not mention paying for the blowing shiat up?


Because "stabilizing wartorn regions through humanitarian aid" doesn't work until the enemy is destroyed. Otherwise the money is simply funneled to the remaining enemy via theft and graft. The Marshall Plan worked because the Nazis were destroyed and the allied military was an occupation force. Imagine if we had left Germany with SS forces still in control of part of the country and we had sent over reconstruction funds with no occupation force to manage them. We'd still be fighting armed combat with Nazis today.
 
2018-02-09 05:41:19 AM  

Pincy: Iraq would have enough money to pay for it themselves if they hadn't wasted it on all those flowers and chocolates.


Yep. Victory parades for greeting the liberators sure don't come cheap. Maybe they should have tamped down a bit on those!
 
2018-02-09 06:02:51 AM  
As of 2013 the US had already spent $60 billion on Iraqi reconstruction, which in inflation adjusted dollars was more than was spent on the reconstruction of Germany after WWII.  The Iraqis spent an additional $150 billion (or so, I'd have to look up the exact number) most of which was from oil revenues.

$200 billion (give or take) was spent, and what was there then to show for it?  What is there now to show for it?  What's the point of funneling more money into the pockets of corrupt politicians and administrators?
 
2018-02-09 06:06:23 AM  

indifference_engine: $200 billion (give or take) was spent, and what was there then to show for it?  What is there now to show for it?


Why, this beautiful US embassy, of course! You think a heavily fortified compound like this just grows on trees? The Iraqis should really be more thankful for all we've given them - the views of this gorgeous building should remind them every day just how much we've invested in their future!
img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2018-02-09 06:14:55 AM  
How hard could it be?  I mean, look at this picture:

img.fark.netView Full Size


It'd be like $200 to fix this.  $300 tops.  I mean, those crazy Iraqis use Monopoly money anyway.
 
2018-02-09 06:29:16 AM  

FatherChaos: How hard could it be?  I mean, look at this picture:

[img.fark.net image 620x413]

It'd be like $200 to fix this.  $300 tops.  I mean, those crazy Iraqis use Monopoly money anyway.


blog.pshares.orgView Full Size


War.  War never changes.
 
2018-02-09 07:09:21 AM  

indifference_engine: FatherChaos: How hard could it be?  I mean, look at this picture:

[img.fark.net image 620x413]

It'd be like $200 to fix this.  $300 tops.  I mean, those crazy Iraqis use Monopoly money anyway.

[blog.pshares.org image 767x425]

War.  War never changes.


That road is cleared very nicely.  The iraqi's are obviously lazy because their roads are still a debris covered mess.
 
2018-02-09 07:16:15 AM  

indifference_engine: FatherChaos: How hard could it be?  I mean, look at this picture:

[img.fark.net image 620x413]

It'd be like $200 to fix this.  $300 tops.  I mean, those crazy Iraqis use Monopoly money anyway.

[blog.pshares.org image 767x425]

War.  War never changes.


The complexity and cost of construction, sanitation, transportation, infrastructure, and security? Those do change. And so does the price tag.

/After the war, you could buy a newly built single-family home in Long Island, NY for the "inflation adjusted" cost of about $65,000 in today's money.

//"War never changes" is a dumb saying. War changes more than most things do.
 
2018-02-09 07:19:23 AM  
we are doomed to repeat ourselves
 
2018-02-09 07:31:18 AM  

Alien Robot: Odin's Other Eye: Alien Robot: How much have you paid into the Treasury for this above your tax obligations? The money has to come from somewhere. You first. Here's the link to contribute: https://www.pay.gov/public​/form/start/23779454

To quote from TFA: "In short, President Trump is happy to spend billions on a pound of cure, but not millions on an ounce of prevention. If killing bad guys is the objective, then money is no object; if stabilizing wartorn regions through humanitarian aid is the proposition, then "limited U.S. government resources alone cannot meet these current and pressing needs."

Why do you not mention paying for the blowing shiat up?

Because "stabilizing wartorn regions through humanitarian aid" doesn't work until the enemy is destroyed. Otherwise the money is simply funneled to the remaining enemy via theft and graft. The Marshall Plan worked because the Nazis were destroyed and the allied military was an occupation force. Imagine if we had left Germany with SS forces still in control of part of the country and we had sent over reconstruction funds with no occupation force to manage them. We'd still be fighting armed combat with Nazis today.


The Nazis were a government. The groups we're fighting in Iraq aren't comparable; the more of them you kill, the more enemies you make. Because a lot of them are fighting us because, well, we rolled into their country and have been skullfarking it ever since.

What we need to realize is that we aren't the good guys in Iraq. We're the invaders, the big bad guy who rolled in and overthrew the government (a tyrant, true, but one we propped up in the first place), blew up the infrastructure, killed countless civilians, and demanded the survivors thank us for it.

That's not to say, of course, that we're the only bad guys; ISIS and al-Qaeda and the like are certainly beyond awful, but 'being better than ISIS' (arguably, if you're going by civilian body count) doesn't make us a 'good guy'.

There's no easy solution to the Iraq farkup, unless someone invents a time machine and stops us from propping up Saddam in the first place. But changing our terrorist fighting tactics from 'blow up everyone in the general area, civilian or no, from a few thousand feet up' would be a good start..
 
2018-02-09 07:48:05 AM  

Shaggy_C: indifference_engine: $200 billion (give or take) was spent, and what was there then to show for it?  What is there now to show for it?

Why, this beautiful US embassy, of course! You think a heavily fortified compound like this just grows on trees? The Iraqis should really be more thankful for all we've given them - the views of this gorgeous building should remind them every day just how much we've invested in their future!
[img.fark.net image 849x479]


img.fark.netView Full Size

See that odd concrete structure near the deck chairs? Those are 'duck-and-cover' shelters for mortar and rocket attacks, inside the US embassy compound in Baghdad. Just in case you get attacked walking to get coffee.

/fun times
 
2018-02-09 08:39:53 AM  
snarla.files.wordpress.comView Full Size
 
2018-02-09 09:18:18 AM  

pkjun: indifference_engine: FatherChaos: How hard could it be?  I mean, look at this picture:

[img.fark.net image 620x413]

It'd be like $200 to fix this.  $300 tops.  I mean, those crazy Iraqis use Monopoly money anyway.

[blog.pshares.org image 767x425]

War.  War never changes.

The complexity and cost of construction, sanitation, transportation, infrastructure, and security? Those do change. And so does the price tag.

/After the war, you could buy a newly built single-family home in Long Island, NY for the "inflation adjusted" cost of about $65,000 in today's money.

//"War never changes" is a dumb saying. War changes more than most things do.


Why can't we be friends?
 
2018-02-09 09:29:27 AM  
In the first seven months of Trump's presidency, there were more civilian deaths in the fight against ISIS than in the entire Obama presidency. Obama used drones. Trump likes big, old bombs, which kill more people and destroy more property. But, hey, at least the bombs cost more, too. And now that President Clappy von Murder Clown has broken the Middle East even more, he wants to leave it the way it is to make the next ISIS group hate us even more.
 
2018-02-09 09:42:00 AM  

pkjun: indifference_engine: FatherChaos: How hard could it be?  I mean, look at this picture:

[img.fark.net image 620x413]

It'd be like $200 to fix this.  $300 tops.  I mean, those crazy Iraqis use Monopoly money anyway.

[blog.pshares.org image 767x425]

War.  War never changes.

The complexity and cost of construction, sanitation, transportation, infrastructure, and security? Those do change. And so does the price tag.

/After the war, you could buy a newly built single-family home in Long Island, NY for the "inflation adjusted" cost of about $65,000 in today's money.

//"War never changes" is a dumb saying. War changes more than most things do.


Okay.  If you say so.  In the meantime there are more cities burned to the ground, but at least you've proven that war slightly changes.  /eyeroll
 
2018-02-09 09:46:09 AM  

DeaH: In the first seven months of Trump's presidency, there were more civilian deaths in the fight against ISIS than in the entire Obama presidency. Obama used drones. Trump likes big, old bombs, which kill more people and destroy more property. But, hey, at least the bombs cost more, too. And now that President Clappy von Murder Clown has broken the Middle East even more, he wants to leave it the way it is to make the next ISIS group hate us even more.


Well how else do you think he's going to get his traumatic event that brings us all together? (and brings him emergency powers)
 
2018-02-09 10:02:16 AM  

LordJiro: Once again, Republicans are the best recruitment tools an extremist organization could ask for.


pretty much, why not repeat the mistakes 1980s Afghanistan?  what's the worst that could happen?  ISIL?
 
2018-02-09 11:36:21 AM  

Odin's Other Eye: DeaH: In the first seven months of Trump's presidency, there were more civilian deaths in the fight against ISIS than in the entire Obama presidency. Obama used drones. Trump likes big, old bombs, which kill more people and destroy more property. But, hey, at least the bombs cost more, too. And now that President Clappy von Murder Clown has broken the Middle East even more, he wants to leave it the way it is to make the next ISIS group hate us even more.

Well how else do you think he's going to get his traumatic event that brings us all together? (and brings him emergency powers)


media.giphy.comView Full Size
 
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