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(Jalopnik)   One piece of good news to come out of the new Republican tax bill: the federal electric vehicle tax credit will not be repealed   ( jalopnik.com) divider line
    More: Spiffy  
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728 clicks; posted to Business » on 17 Dec 2017 at 5:33 AM (31 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2017-12-17 02:48:54 AM  
Like it f*cking matters.

This is the equivalent of your racist, homophobic granddad making you a sandwich by shiatting on some bread, tossing in some cyanide pills, mashing it together, and shoving it down your throat while screaming, "Don't worry, I put some mustard on it!"

Yay...mustard.
 
2017-12-17 06:48:47 AM  
Don't remind them, they probably forgot to take it out!
 
2017-12-17 07:33:55 AM  
 
2017-12-17 08:23:47 AM  

Sid_6.7: Like it f*cking matters.

This is the equivalent of your racist, homophobic granddad making you a sandwich by shiatting on some bread, tossing in some cyanide pills, mashing it together, and shoving it down your throat while screaming, "Don't worry, I put some mustard on it!"

Yay...mustard.


Wait...there's mustard on it?  Yummy!
 
2017-12-17 08:39:11 AM  
SHHH! Don't draw attention to it.
 
2017-12-17 08:39:49 AM  
Spiffy?  There are hints of cinnamon in this steaming pile of shiat!  Spiffy!
 
2017-12-17 08:49:31 AM  
Just saved me $7500 in tax on my Tesla, so I love this bill because It's fiscally responsible, heck I'm even gonna save $276 over last tax bill.

Truth be told, I can't be bought, I hate this bill for more important reasons. I'll be in the streets protesting

/FU Repubs
 
2017-12-17 08:53:15 AM  
On the Tesla forum there has been a great deal of speculation on the topic and three points stick out: 1. If you can't afford the car without the tax credit, you can't afford the car. 2. If you can't afford the car without the tax CREDIT, you don't make enough to use the credit. 3. Most people do not understand the difference between a tax credit and a refund.

/Doesn't matter to me, I'm way down on the list and won't be taking delivery of our Model 3 until next summer.
 
2017-12-17 09:01:05 AM  

Gordon Bennett: I wonder why.


But I was told that Silicon Valley billionaires are the GOOD kind of billionaires!
 
2017-12-17 09:29:28 AM  

natazha: 2. If you can't afford the car without the tax CREDIT, you don't make enough to use the credit. 3. Most people do not understand the difference between a tax credit and a refund.


Erhm, it's usually "credit" vs. "deduction", and it sounds like as long as you pay $7500 or more in taxes, you can expect a refund due to the credit* (depending upon your withholdings, etc)

/Credits are WAAAAAY better than deductions
 
2017-12-17 09:38:40 AM  
Now they need to make that tax credit available to people over multiple years (maybe all years of ownership of the vehicle). As it is right now, you only get $7,500 off the purchase price of your EV if you are paying $7,500 in federal incomes taxes the year of purchase. All the normal, middle-class families with tax bills of $2,000 or whatever are missing out. It's an incentive for the rich and it should be available to all.
 
2017-12-17 09:41:02 AM  

mekkab: Erhm, it's usually "credit" vs. "deduction", and it sounds like as long as you pay $7500 or more in taxes, you can expect a refund due to the credit* (depending upon your withholdings, etc)

/Credits are WAAAAAY better than deductions


FULLY-REFUNDABLE credits are where it really matters.
 
2017-12-17 09:44:23 AM  

natazha: On the Tesla forum there has been a great deal of speculation on the topic and three points stick out: 1. If you can't afford the car without the tax credit, you can't afford the car. 2. If you can't afford the car without the tax CREDIT, you don't make enough to use the credit. 3. Most people do not understand the difference between a tax credit and a refund.

/Doesn't matter to me, I'm way down on the list and won't be taking delivery of our Model 3 until next summer.


Good luck with that.

https://electrek.co/2017/11/01/tesla-​m​odel-3-production-delays/
 
2017-12-17 09:45:53 AM  
Probably because the people who can afford to buy $70k Teslas lobbied for it to be saved...
 
2017-12-17 09:50:20 AM  

mrmopar5287: Now they need to make that tax credit available to people over multiple years (maybe all years of ownership of the vehicle). As it is right now, you only get $7,500 off the purchase price of your EV if you are paying $7,500 in federal incomes taxes the year of purchase. All the normal, middle-class families with tax bills of $2,000 or whatever are missing out. It's an incentive for the rich and it should be available to all.


Exactly.

And now that we have EV cars in the mid-$30k range there should be a cap on the cost of a car - people who can afford a $70k Tesla don't need a $7,500 tax credit.
 
2017-12-17 11:00:45 AM  

Sid_6.7: Like it f*cking matters.

This is the equivalent of your racist, homophobic granddad making you a sandwich by shiatting on some bread, tossing in some cyanide pills, mashing it together, and shoving it down your throat while screaming, "Don't worry, I put some mustard on it!"

Yay...mustard.


But it's Grey Poop-on!
 
2017-12-17 11:12:45 AM  

thornhill: mrmopar5287: Now they need to make that tax credit available to people over multiple years (maybe all years of ownership of the vehicle). As it is right now, you only get $7,500 off the purchase price of your EV if you are paying $7,500 in federal incomes taxes the year of purchase. All the normal, middle-class families with tax bills of $2,000 or whatever are missing out. It's an incentive for the rich and it should be available to all.

Exactly.

And now that we have EV cars in the mid-$30k range there should be a cap on the cost of a car - people who can afford a $70k Tesla don't need a $7,500 tax credit.


It's not that they NEED the tax credit, it's that getting the tax credit encourages them to do something we want them to do.

The day is coming when EV are widely used and accepted as equal to a gas car.  We're just not quite there yet.  But in the meantime giving early adopters a tax credit is good policy.
 
2017-12-17 11:22:31 AM  
An interesting consideration is that the credit scales down when an automaker hits 200,000 electric vehicles ever and then gives half credit for vehicles 6 months after the first point. Tesla is the closest at something like 122,000 units, while GM and Nissan are ramping up production and should hit it within a year or two. I've heard rumors that any one of those groups are going to build an assload of vehicles, stockpile them with a do not sell order, and then do a rapid 3-6 month delivery to maximize the effect of the credit for customers.
 
2017-12-17 11:24:42 AM  
 The problem I have with the tax credit is that it goes to the company that made the car. I know, you'll argue otherwise, but that's the way it is. You really think car companies aren't jacking up the price of their cars since you're getting a credit? Really?

The Chevy Bolt is a $20K car at best. No engines or transmissions had to be built and emissions tested. No catalytic converters or exhausts fitted. No fuel tanks needed to be tested and plumbed for emissions etc.
 
2017-12-17 11:45:22 AM  

Interceptor1: The problem I have with the tax credit is that it goes to the company that made the car. I know, you'll argue otherwise, but that's the way it is. You really think car companies aren't jacking up the price of their cars since you're getting a credit? Really?

The Chevy Bolt is a $20K car at best. No engines or transmissions had to be built and emissions tested. No catalytic converters or exhausts fitted. No fuel tanks needed to be tested and plumbed for emissions etc.


The fault in your logic lies in the Economies of Scale, which have not been reached for EVs.  The biggest killer is the battery packs.  Thankfully, the technology is evolving rapidly enough that they're becoming cheaper to manufacture each year.
 
2017-12-17 11:58:41 AM  

Krieghund: thornhill: mrmopar5287: Now they need to make that tax credit available to people over multiple years (maybe all years of ownership of the vehicle). As it is right now, you only get $7,500 off the purchase price of your EV if you are paying $7,500 in federal incomes taxes the year of purchase. All the normal, middle-class families with tax bills of $2,000 or whatever are missing out. It's an incentive for the rich and it should be available to all.

Exactly.

And now that we have EV cars in the mid-$30k range there should be a cap on the cost of a car - people who can afford a $70k Tesla don't need a $7,500 tax credit.

It's not that they NEED the tax credit, it's that getting the tax credit encourages them to do something we want them to do.

The day is coming when EV are widely used and accepted as equal to a gas car.  We're just not quite there yet.  But in the meantime giving early adopters a tax credit is good policy.


When EV cars started at $70k it made sense to have no cap - to your point it was about encouraging early adopter. But now EV cars are as inexpensive as the high-$20s. Helping people buy $70k cars no longer helps promote the change-over to from ICE to EV.
 
2017-12-17 12:03:41 PM  

Gary-L: natazha: On the Tesla forum there has been a great deal of speculation on the topic and three points stick out: 1. If you can't afford the car without the tax credit, you can't afford the car. 2. If you can't afford the car without the tax CREDIT, you don't make enough to use the credit. 3. Most people do not understand the difference between a tax credit and a refund.

/Doesn't matter to me, I'm way down on the list and won't be taking delivery of our Model 3 until next summer.

Good luck with that.

https://electrek.co/2017/11/01/tesla-m​odel-3-production-delays/


I plan on buying a used one next year from a dissatisfied fanboi.
 
2017-12-17 12:19:02 PM  

Interceptor1: The problem I have with the tax credit is that it goes to the company that made the car. I know, you'll argue otherwise, but that's the way it is. You really think car companies aren't jacking up the price of their cars since you're getting a credit? Really?

The Chevy Bolt is a $20K car at best. No engines or transmissions had to be built and emissions tested. No catalytic converters or exhausts fitted. No fuel tanks needed to be tested and plumbed for emissions etc.


I think it's more like companies are using the credit to payback their R&D costs as well as capital expense related to manufacturing the batteries.

And the money getting passed back to companies this way makes sense because it is tied to sales. If car companies received a direct tax benefit for simply having EV cars in their fleet they'd figure out a way to game the system where they pocket the tax credit without actually delivering many vehicles.
 
2017-12-17 12:19:40 PM  

Interceptor1: The Chevy Bolt is a $20K car at best. No engines or transmissions had to be built and emissions tested. No catalytic converters or exhausts fitted. No fuel tanks needed to be tested and plumbed for emissions etc.


That stuff is pennies for GM to do. They'd just stuff the Bolt with one of the engines already emissions tested, and a transmission they already build by the hundreds of thousands. Fuel tank testing and plumbing for emissions is a done deal, not rapidly evolving science with huge development costs.
 
2017-12-17 12:20:51 PM  

TedCruz'sCrazyDad: I plan on buying a used one next year from a dissatisfied fanboi.


It will be like buying a Trabant: used models were more expensive because they were available NOW instead of waiting years on a list.
 
2017-12-17 12:22:54 PM  

Interceptor1: The problem I have with the tax credit is that it goes to the company that made the car. I know, you'll argue otherwise, but that's the way it is. You really think car companies aren't jacking up the price of their cars since you're getting a credit? Really?

The Chevy Bolt is a $20K car at best. No engines or transmissions had to be built and emissions tested. No catalytic converters or exhausts fitted. No fuel tanks needed to be tested and plumbed for emissions etc.


A compact car with a traditional ICE drivetrain doesn't need a crapload of relatively expensive Lithium Ion battery cells and the electronics needed to make sure they are charging and discharging properly over their lifespan, plus a set of powerful electric motors to drive the wheels, so it's not like you can just take out the line items for engine and drivetrain off of the cost of the vehicle when deciding how much a Bolt should cost. Plus theirs also a lot of fixed R&D costs that go into the current price.
 
2017-12-17 12:53:52 PM  

thornhill: Interceptor1: The problem I have with the tax credit is that it goes to the company that made the car. I know, you'll argue otherwise, but that's the way it is. You really think car companies aren't jacking up the price of their cars since you're getting a credit? Really?

The Chevy Bolt is a $20K car at best. No engines or transmissions had to be built and emissions tested. No catalytic converters or exhausts fitted. No fuel tanks needed to be tested and plumbed for emissions etc.

I think it's more like companies are using the credit to payback their R&D costs as well as capital expense related to manufacturing the batteries.

And the money getting passed back to companies this way makes sense because it is tied to sales. If car companies received a direct tax benefit for simply having EV cars in their fleet they'd figure out a way to game the system where they pocket the tax credit without actually delivering many vehicles.


You mean like dealers who were selling them as used even though they only had 4 miles on them because they were selling them to themselves and claiming the credit for the dealership?
 
2017-12-17 01:07:38 PM  

thornhill: Helping people buy $70k cars no longer helps promote the change-over to from ICE to EV.


I disagree.

People that are spending $60-70k on a car aren't going to buy a high $20k car. They'll buy a gas car before they'll buy a cheap electric car. Because for a lot of people it's all about the attention whoring.

IMO making a luxury electric car is the best thing Tesla has done. It's made electric cars acceptable to a big swath of the population.
 
2017-12-17 02:01:01 PM  
Since the bill is largely a handout to the wealthy, I'm not surprised they kept this handout to the wealthy.
 
2017-12-17 02:30:05 PM  

jayphat: You mean like dealers who were selling them as used even though they only had 4 miles on them because they were selling them to themselves and claiming the credit for the dealership?


That's on the buyers to deal with. They're the people who are presumably in line for the tax credit and the dealership would have the obligation to specify it's on NEW cars, and the obligation to make clear potential buyers are buying a USED car (and why it is used, because the dealership titled it...)

Anyone fleeced by a dealership in this kind of arrangement could easily recoup $7,500 in a small claims case. Put it in front of a jury (if possible) and let those 12 people decide how terrible a car dealership is when doing this.
 
2017-12-17 02:57:06 PM  
It should be noted that the credit also applies to plug-in hybrids, where the credit is scaled on battery capacity. The vehicle limit applies to any vehicle that qualifies for the credit. So, a plug-in Prius may only qualify for $4k, but it still counts as one vehicle.
 
2017-12-17 04:56:22 PM  
This is nice, it will benefit .......people who can afford to buy new electric vehicles. Like Teslas and stuff.

I hope they kept the tax credit for having a large boat too. I'd miss my yacht.

Gordon Bennett: I wonder why.


Wow, astonishing.
/Of course congress supports this. It's about more consumerism.
 
2017-12-17 06:03:36 PM  

Gordon Bennett: I wonder why.


News flash.  Large businesses tend to donate to both parties since it's a solid business decision to do so.
 
kab
2017-12-18 01:54:42 AM  
Let me know when they start applying yearly mileage taxes to EV owners, since they aren't contributing to road maintenance currently.
 
2017-12-18 02:05:59 AM  
Oh good, the "free money for smug douchebags" subsidy stays in.
 
2017-12-18 03:27:58 AM  

mrmopar5287: Anyone fleeced by a dealership in this kind of arrangement could easily recoup $7,500 in a small claims case.


Never heard of a small claims court that would accept a case for that high of an amount. See the "small" part.

Put it in front of a jury (if possible) and let those 12 people decide how terrible a car dealership is when doing this.

Hahahahaha. Do people really think that's how small claims court works?!?
 
2017-12-18 06:17:35 AM  

Pats_Cloth_Coat: mrmopar5287: Anyone fleeced by a dealership in this kind of arrangement could easily recoup $7,500 in a small claims case.

Never heard of a small claims court that would accept a case for that high of an amount. See the "small" part.

Put it in front of a jury (if possible) and let those 12 people decide how terrible a car dealership is when doing this.

Hahahahaha. Do people really think that's how small claims court works?!?


It's up to $10,000 in my state. And yes, there can be juries in some locations.
 
2017-12-18 07:08:39 AM  

Pats_Cloth_Coat: Do people really think that's how small claims court works?!?


"In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed $20, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved."
 
2017-12-18 10:49:53 AM  

natazha: It should be noted that the credit also applies to plug-in hybrids, where the credit is scaled on battery capacity. The vehicle limit applies to any vehicle that qualifies for the credit. So, a plug-in Prius may only qualify for $4k, but it still counts as one vehicle.


I thought the Hybrid credit was stopped some years back.
 
2017-12-18 10:51:11 AM  

mrmopar5287: jayphat: You mean like dealers who were selling them as used even though they only had 4 miles on them because they were selling them to themselves and claiming the credit for the dealership?

That's on the buyers to deal with. They're the people who are presumably in line for the tax credit and the dealership would have the obligation to specify it's on NEW cars, and the obligation to make clear potential buyers are buying a USED car (and why it is used, because the dealership titled it...)

Anyone fleeced by a dealership in this kind of arrangement could easily recoup $7,500 in a small claims case. Put it in front of a jury (if possible) and let those 12 people decide how terrible a car dealership is when doing this.


This was also part of the reason the Volts sales numbers looked so high to start. Still sitting on dealers lots but GM recorded it as a sale.
 
2017-12-18 11:24:41 AM  

Gordon Bennett: I wonder why.


Not by any means discounting the ultra-wealthy and their donations having an effect, but I think it has just as much to do with the other side of the tax break. By and large, it's not families with low to middle household incomes running out to buy Teslas. Or even Volts or Leafs or whatever. It's a tax break that almost exclusively benefits the upper-middle and high income people. Even if they are filthy libs, they're affluent ones.
 
2017-12-18 11:50:58 AM  

RubberBandMan: Just saved me $7500 in tax on my Tesla, so I love this bill because It's fiscally responsible, heck I'm even gonna save $276 over last tax bill.

Truth be told, I can't be bought, I hate this bill for more important reasons. I'll be in the streets protesting

/FU Repubs


How about paying the full price of your smugmobile, you hypocritical jackoff?
 
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