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(Medical Xpress)   Big Brother is watching you, and he's fabulous   ( medicalxpress.com) divider line
    More: Followup, Homosexuality, older brother effect, Gender, Bisexuality, sexual orientation, older brothers, maternal immune responsivity, y-linked protein nlgn4y  
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1637 clicks; posted to Geek » on 12 Dec 2017 at 8:50 AM (31 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



16 Comments     (+0 »)
 
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2017-12-12 08:14:09 AM  
So being gay is a choice! A fabulous choice.

/Made by parents!
 
2017-12-12 08:46:22 AM  
I dunno. That reads like someone had a pet theory and set out to prove it.
 
2017-12-12 08:56:28 AM  
this makes zero sense.
 
2017-12-12 08:57:33 AM  
I read something about this a couple of decades ago.

My dude has one older brother. I'm an only child. We're both totally into men and always have been.

Whatever.
 
2017-12-12 09:07:04 AM  

RJReves: I dunno. That reads like someone had a pet theory and set out to prove it.


Yeah. I mean, big families used to be pretty common; it's only recently that the Western world has had our birthrate down. If this was true, homosexuality would be on the decline.
 
2017-12-12 09:13:58 AM  

starsrift: RJReves: I dunno. That reads like someone had a pet theory and set out to prove it.

Yeah. I mean, big families used to be pretty common; it's only recently that the Western world has had our birthrate down. If this was true, homosexuality would be on the decline.


Might be.  Never know how many stayed in the closet.
 
2017-12-12 09:17:41 AM  

12349876: starsrift: RJReves: I dunno. That reads like someone had a pet theory and set out to prove it.

Yeah. I mean, big families used to be pretty common; it's only recently that the Western world has had our birthrate down. If this was true, homosexuality would be on the decline.

Might be.  Never know how many stayed in the closet.


Or the future of the victims of staggering infant mortality.
 
2017-12-12 09:29:00 AM  
I will immediately start taunting my straight older brother with this information.

RJReves: I dunno. That reads like someone had a pet theory and set out to prove it.


It's been showing up in studies for quite a while before this.

Add another study to the list.

Pazuzu Smith-Jones: My dude has one older brother. I'm an only child. We're both totally into men and always have been.


Notice the part where it says it "increases the odds" and not that it definitely causes you to be gay? For instance, my older and younger brothers are both straight.
 
2017-12-12 09:44:08 AM  
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2017-12-12 10:26:38 AM  

RJReves: I dunno. That reads like someone had a pet theory and set out to prove it.


No, they noted that adopted younger brothers were NEVER gay and that biological ones were more likely to be than first-born, suggesting a biological cause.
So they had a hypothesis based on a different source of information and set out to find the culprit as I understand it, which is the cleanest approach to a scientific study.

There's something for everyone with an extreme point of view not to like about this.
People who think homosexuality is a choice or that it can be unlearned will be unhappy that these boys are programmed at birth for same sex attraction, and it can't be 'unlearned'.

People who want to see homosexuality as something completely natural will be unhappy that this is essentially a syndrome that is not any more natural that an autoimmune disease, and mothers can be screened and treated to prevent it from happening.  That doesn't make homosexuality bad or justify discrimination.
 
2017-12-12 12:13:50 PM  

Animatronik: No, they noted that adopted younger brothers were NEVER gay and that biological ones were more likely to be than first-born, suggesting a biological cause.
So they had a hypothesis based on a different source of information and set out to find the culprit as I understand it, which is the cleanest approach to a scientific study.


"okay, it's significant, but does it matter?"
e.g. if one condition changes mean arterial pressure by 1mmHg in every subject, and every control stays exactly the same. does it matter when the inter-individual variability is 20mmHg and the intra-individual variability is 15 throughout the day?
in other words, "gtfo of here with that shiat"
 
2017-12-12 01:12:55 PM  
Ha! Ha! Fundamentalists who breed like rabbits are aiding and abetting the Enemy!

Mind you, on the other hand one of the theories which scientists have concerning gays is that the genes which encourage homosexuality may also produce greater fertilitiy in women who carry them, so increased family sizes might compensate for loses due to celebacy and homosexuality.

Hence large Catholic families--too many priests and religious and they perish, but if fertiliity is increased at the same time, they could carry a much heavier load of non-reproducing offspring and benefit from pro-social traits of gays and clergy.

Some Protestants adopt the "Cathie" strategy of many offspring, low nurturing levels, and many other religions encourage breeding (and sometimes poverty) so the RCs would not be alone by any means in their pursuit of high reproductive levels, tempered by high levels of non-breeding offspring.

It probably all evens out somewhat except at the extremes. It would take only a tiny reproductive edge to prevent extinction and since about one in four American gay men (Harper's Index) is a father, the edge to co-lateral reproduction would not need to be very great as long as the percentage of exclusively gay men was relatively small. Women are more likely to be intermediate in their sexuality. Presumably a lot of them are bisexual across their life spans and the resulting decline in reproductive success is tiny or non-existant.

Do gays have fewer children than straights? Do more children of gays survive to reproduce? Is there a sociological or political or religious factor at play which culturally or psychologically mitigates the various forces at work?

To paraphrase Donald J. Trump, genetics is hard.
 
2017-12-12 01:36:13 PM  
There is a good summary of the "fraternal birth order effect in Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fratern​a​l_birth_order_and_male_sexual_orientat​ion

It is a pretty solid theory, first proposed in 1958, I guess. It is backed by studies of various kinds and sizes, many of them large. As a demographic effect it is statistical and thus quite hard to get wrong in a large study.

I was interested in the exact numbers and found them in this article's section on quantitative findings:

Research on the fraternal birth order effect has shown that for every older brother a male child has, there is a 33% increase in the naturally occurring odds that the male child being homosexual.[5][16][15] The naturally occurring odds of a male child (without any older brothers) being homosexual are estimated to be 2%.[16][15][note 2] Thus, if a male with no older brothers has a 2% chance of being homosexual and the fraternal birth order effect increases those chances by 33% for each older brother, then a male with one older brother has a 2.6% chance of being homosexual; a male with two older brothers has a 3.5% chance, and males with three and four older brothers have a 4.6%, and 6.0% chance, respectively.[14]
Estimates of the proportion of homosexual men who owe their sexual orientation to the fraternal birth order effect have ranged from 15.1%[16] to 28.6%.[42] The 15.1% estimation, if stated in round numbers, means that roughly 1 in 7 gay men owe their sexual orientation to the fraternal birth order effect.[11][16] Cantor et al. (2002) found that 0% of homosexual men with no older brothers, 24% of homosexual men with one older brother, 43% of homosexual men with two older brothers, and so on, can attribute their homosexual orientation to the fraternal birth order effect.[35] They also showed that the effect of fraternal birth order would exceed all other causes of homosexuality combined in groups of gay men with 3 or more older brothers and would precisely equal all other causes combined in a theoretical group with 2.5 older brothers.[16] Homosexual men who did not acquire their sexual orientation via the fraternal birth order effect (for example, homosexual men with no older brothers) owe their homosexuality to other causes such as certain polymorphic genes (colloquially called "gay genes") or prenatal hormone levels during fetal development.[11][35][43]
.

Males with no older brothers have a 2% chance of being gay in these studies.
Each older brother increases the odds by 33%. Which is to say 33% of the previous odds, 2% to start with.

So the odds are:

No older brothers: 2%
1 older brother: 2.6%
2 older brother: 3.5%
3 older brothers: 4.6%
4 older brothers: 6%

The article goes on to consider birth weight in terms of fraternal birth rank and finds that gay babies with older brothers are lighter, a sign of stress in the womb. Since the article in question in this thread points to maternal immunity playing a role, this makes sense. If your Mother's body is developing resistance with the birth of each male child, gestation will be harder for you and possibly for her with each additional male.

As well as something to annoy or offend everybody, this theory has something to encourage and please everybody. It is not an either/or proposition. It is statistical, demographic and probabilistic.

2% is close to the lower end of the estimates of how many men are gay. But that is only for only sons. The total percentage of the population at large would be higher. And we are only talking gays, not bisexuals. And only gays with older brothers, not gays with older sisters. In children with two children, an older sister is about 50% as likely as an older brother. Two girls are at about 25%. More males are born (105%) but mortality for males is higher at all ages coontil about age 105). So the boys who are alive at say, 12, 15 and 25 are selected by many other social, economical, political and cultural forces. Gays may benefit from a tendancy to take fewer chances being macho and dumb. It has been shown by many studies that homosexuality is more prevalent in all male institutions such as prisons, armed forces, semenaries, boy's schools, where risk-taking may land you but only if you should live so long.

So there. There what? Is there a there there?

Oh, Gertrude Stein. We love you!
 
2017-12-12 01:41:30 PM  
Being an only child is apparently good for your chances of lifetime success. Being straight, only sons are aggressive brats and thus well equipped to become successful alpha male a-holes, especially when they have had some sense, manners and humility beaten into them by life.

The brattiest children in my family have been the greatest career "successes" thus far. This holds for my Father and Mother's generation and my own, plus any other generations or age cadres. Some of them make quite confident and charming adults.

Pyschopaths are also usually confident and charming, though, so go figure.

I have a theory that divorces are hereditary also. All of the divorced parents have produced divorced children. Those who have not divorced have produced mostly firmly married for life children. Several generations confirm this.
 
2017-12-12 04:20:59 PM  
Big Brother is watching you, and he's fabulous

You got it backwards, subby.  It's the little brothers that are gay.
 
2017-12-13 01:07:56 PM  
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