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(Yahoo)   The Savage Arms ML10-II muzzle-loading rifle, according to dozens of reports, has a special exploding barrel feature that removes unwanted fingers from hunters. Oh, and the Consumer Product Safety Commission has no authority to recall it   ( yahoo.com) divider line
    More: Scary, Savage Arms, Gunpowder, Gordon Harris/Trent Procter, Arms stainless steel, steel 10ML-II muzzleloader, Massachusetts-based Savage Arms, left hand, Savage 10ML-II burst  
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7500 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Dec 2017 at 1:43 AM (24 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2017-12-06 10:01:17 PM  
Oh, you mean adults that buy and own guns are going to have to be responsible for themselves.

OK
 
2017-12-06 10:30:48 PM  
Sounds savage.
 
2017-12-06 10:31:19 PM  
Savage has stopped making them, but I see lots of 10 ML II's for sale on GunBroker.com.

Caveat emptor.
 
2017-12-06 11:58:15 PM  
That's pretty brutal.
-Nathan Explosion
 
2017-12-07 12:09:57 AM  
"It's an example of an industry that can essentially do whatever they want and there's no consequences other than being held accountable in a civil liability context,"

Oh I'm sure guns will start coming with arbitration clauses any day now.
 
2017-12-07 12:27:08 AM  
The right to bear arms removes them?

I've entered a mobius loop.
 
2017-12-07 12:47:42 AM  
Unsafe at any speed.
 
2017-12-07 12:52:10 AM  

fusillade762: "It's an example of an industry that can essentially do whatever they want and there's no consequences other than being held accountable in a civil liability context,"

Oh I'm sure guns will start coming with arbitration clauses any day now.


It will be engraved by a laser, backwards, in microscopic lettering on a specially shaped firing pin, so every spent round of yours will have a copy of their EULA that you just agreed to by pulling the trigger.

An electron microscope reading of the spent casing (Defense Exhibit A) will show that the plaintiff clearly agreed to their terms by using the product. It sounds farcical, but I honestly believe they could get away with this with a team of soul-less attorneys and a jury of idiots. But that's tautology.
 
2017-12-07 01:46:05 AM  

feckingmorons: Oh, you mean adults that buy and own guns are going to have to be responsible for themselves.

OK


What other industries is it okay to sell an unsafe product in?  Are defective condoms okay if people dislike people who use them?
 
2017-12-07 01:49:58 AM  
Why should they? Does the Federal Trade Commission have any authority when the US government trade things? Did the Johnson Commission have any control over my penis?
 
2017-12-07 01:54:50 AM  

ecmoRandomNumbers: soul-less attorneys


Redundancy spotted.
 
2017-12-07 01:56:21 AM  
img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2017-12-07 02:01:44 AM  
Many people mistakenly believe that black powder rifles are safer than smokeless.
BP is an explosive.
SP is a combustive.
 
2017-12-07 02:01:57 AM  
I'm sure brave sir Feckingwill gladly buy one and show us how it's done.
 
2017-12-07 02:02:45 AM  
What part of "Shal not be afringed" do you mother farkers not undestood.
 
2017-12-07 02:05:39 AM  
wow Peta have really upped their hunt sabotage game recently!!
 
2017-12-07 02:07:13 AM  

davidphogan: feckingmorons: Oh, you mean adults that buy and own guns are going to have to be responsible for themselves.

OK

What other industries is it okay to sell an unsafe product in?  Are defective condoms okay if people dislike people who use them?


Take the article with a grain of salt. It is presenting the views of the guy suing Savage. While it is possible there was an issue with the steel it's more likely he accidentally double or triple charged it with smokeless powder and boom. That's not really Savage's fault or problem.
 
2017-12-07 02:08:54 AM  

davidphogan: feckingmorons: Oh, you mean adults that buy and own guns are going to have to be responsible for themselves.

OK

What other industries is it okay to sell an unsafe product in?  Are defective condoms okay if people dislike people who use them?


Silly liberal.  Responsibility and consequences are for Little People, not corporations.
 
2017-12-07 02:09:38 AM  
Sounds like a self-correcting problem - my favorite kind.
 
2017-12-07 02:10:00 AM  
Muzzle loader type typing detected

I'll wait for dittybopper to explain
 
2017-12-07 02:11:49 AM  
Folks, this is a VERY specific problem with a particular gun.

These muzzleloaders were built to use smokeless powder, rather than the "black" powder (or equivalent substitute) used in the other 99% of muzzleloaders built since 1610 or so. A whole different animal.

With the black powder every muzzleloader shooter is accustomed to it's almost impossible to blow a rifle up no matter how much powder is used if the projectile is seated firmly on the powder charge. Excess powder is simply blown out the muzzle with the bullet (or ball) and burns in a big flash. If the bullet isn't seated all the way down it leaves an air space for the powder to burn in, greatly increasing pressures.

Add in the much faster burn rate of smokeless powder and the amount of powder used becomes much more critical, as does the risk involved in not eliminating a void. These aren't inherently dangerous rifles but they ARE much easier to screw up with than regular muzzleloaders, as several shooters have clearly demonstrated.
 
2017-12-07 02:13:37 AM  

duenor: Many people mistakenly believe that black powder rifles are safer than smokeless.
BP is an explosive.
SP is a combustive.


As explained in the Schoolhouse Rock song "Combustion Ustion"

/yes it's a word
 
2017-12-07 02:21:40 AM  
I wonder why liberals restricted the Consumer Product Safety Commission from having the authority? Hmmmm.
 
2017-12-07 02:21:45 AM  
I don't get the whole muzzle-loader thing. If you just wing, say a black bear for example, and make it really cranky, the 15 seconds or so it takes you to reload (probably inaccurately, due to a pissed off bear heading towards you, while you're sh*tting your pants) seems excessive. Hope these people carry a backup piece.

/ Savage just seems to be saving the bears some time and flesh wounds
 
2017-12-07 02:23:50 AM  

ecmoRandomNumbers: fusillade762: "It's an example of an industry that can essentially do whatever they want and there's no consequences other than being held accountable in a civil liability context,"

Oh I'm sure guns will start coming with arbitration clauses any day now.

It will be engraved by a laser, backwards, in microscopic lettering on a specially shaped firing pin, so every spent round of yours will have a copy of their EULA that you just agreed to by pulling the trigger.

An electron microscope reading of the spent casing (Defense Exhibit A) will show that the plaintiff clearly agreed to their terms by using the product. It sounds farcical, but I honestly believe they could get away with this with a team of soul-less attorneys and a jury of idiots. But that's tautology.


And if they did that, it would take only a minute or so to file off the laser engraving.  If microstamping were actually feasible, I could see a business opportunity selling firing pins with laser engraved slogans, obscenities, or the full text of the 2nd Amendment.
 
2017-12-07 02:30:04 AM  

gunsmack: I don't get the whole muzzle-loader thing. If you just wing, say a black bear for example, and make it really cranky, the 15 seconds or so it takes you to reload (probably inaccurately, due to a pissed off bear heading towards you, while you're sh*tting your pants) seems excessive. Hope these people carry a backup piece.

/ Savage just seems to be saving the bears some time and flesh wounds


Different strokes for different folks. When I hunt now it's usually with a .50 pistol, a CVA Optima V2. Can't remember the last time anything needed a second shot, wouldn't hesitate to hunt black bear with it. For grizzly I would just buy a second one.
 
2017-12-07 02:32:45 AM  

Jeff5: Folks, this is a VERY specific problem with a particular gun.

These muzzleloaders were built to use smokeless powder, rather than the "black" powder (or equivalent substitute) used in the other 99% of muzzleloaders built since 1610 or so. A whole different animal.

With the black powder every muzzleloader shooter is accustomed to it's almost impossible to blow a rifle up no matter how much powder is used if the projectile is seated firmly on the powder charge. Excess powder is simply blown out the muzzle with the bullet (or ball) and burns in a big flash. If the bullet isn't seated all the way down it leaves an air space for the powder to burn in, greatly increasing pressures.

Add in the much faster burn rate of smokeless powder and the amount of powder used becomes much more critical, as does the risk involved in not eliminating a void. These aren't inherently dangerous rifles but they ARE much easier to screw up with than regular muzzleloaders, as several shooters have clearly demonstrated.


Or they have a metallurgical fault.
 
2017-12-07 02:33:25 AM  

reubendaley: Prof. Frink: Why should they? Does the Federal Trade Commission have any authority when the US government trade things? Did the Johnson Commission have any control over my penis?

Actually there's a private company that is responsible for that

[img.fark.net image 306x216][View Full Size image _x_]


Well obviously it's a privates company.
 
2017-12-07 02:34:52 AM  
Paging morons that are into fat Mohawk Indian cosplay. Paging morons that are into fat Mohawk Indian cosplay.
 
2017-12-07 02:38:09 AM  

gaspode: Jeff5: Folks, this is a VERY specific problem with a particular gun.

These muzzleloaders were built to use smokeless powder, rather than the "black" powder (or equivalent substitute) used in the other 99% of muzzleloaders built since 1610 or so. A whole different animal.

With the black powder every muzzleloader shooter is accustomed to it's almost impossible to blow a rifle up no matter how much powder is used if the projectile is seated firmly on the powder charge. Excess powder is simply blown out the muzzle with the bullet (or ball) and burns in a big flash. If the bullet isn't seated all the way down it leaves an air space for the powder to burn in, greatly increasing pressures.

Add in the much faster burn rate of smokeless powder and the amount of powder used becomes much more critical, as does the risk involved in not eliminating a void. These aren't inherently dangerous rifles but they ARE much easier to screw up with than regular muzzleloaders, as several shooters have clearly demonstrated.

Or they have a metallurgical fault.


Savage makes an awful lot of guns, mostly cartridge rifles intended for smokeless powder, that are not known for blowing up. Of course, reloaders manage to ruin some by double-charging their loads or trying ill-advised experiments, but overall they are actually very strong, relatively inexpensive guns known for much-better-than-average accuracy.
 
2017-12-07 02:41:14 AM  
You can have my muzzleloader when you pry it from by blown off hands?
 
2017-12-07 02:46:24 AM  

stan unusual: You can have my muzzleloader when you pry it from by blown off hands?


Well, reducing the number of fingers would make the prying much easier...
 
2017-12-07 02:48:33 AM  

stan unusual: You can have my muzzleloader when you pry it from find it and my blown off hands?


FTFY. Obvious cause of inability to type is obvious.
 
2017-12-07 02:53:05 AM  
Why should they have to?  The conservative answer is always that the free market will solve it.  In this case, word gets out that this product is defective, and people stop buying it, leading to its natural elimination.

Why are we not using this as the perfect tear case as to whether an overbearing government is a good thing?
 
2017-12-07 03:08:51 AM  

Horizon: davidphogan: feckingmorons: Oh, you mean adults that buy and own guns are going to have to be responsible for themselves.

OK

What other industries is it okay to sell an unsafe product in?  Are defective condoms okay if people dislike people who use them?

Take the article with a grain of salt. It is presenting the views of the guy suing Savage. While it is possible there was an issue with the steel it's more likely he accidentally double or triple charged it with smokeless powder and boom. That's not really Savage's fault or problem.


That or there's no oversight of gun manufacturers.  Here's a CNBC article about the issue from 2010: Link.

From that article: "The Consumer Product Safety Commission shall make no ruling or order that restricts the manufacture or sale of firearms, fire-arms ammunition, or components of firearms ammunition," the law says.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms licenses gun manufacturers, but the agency has no authority to recall defective firearms, according to a spokesman.

The issue is crucial to gun rights advocates, who see the prospect of a government-mandated firearm recall as an infringement on their rights under the second amendment.

Sure, no problem there...
 
2017-12-07 03:12:26 AM  

Jeff5: gaspode: Jeff5: Folks, this is a VERY specific problem with a particular gun.

These muzzleloaders were built to use smokeless powder, rather than the "black" powder (or equivalent substitute) used in the other 99% of muzzleloaders built since 1610 or so. A whole different animal.

With the black powder every muzzleloader shooter is accustomed to it's almost impossible to blow a rifle up no matter how much powder is used if the projectile is seated firmly on the powder charge. Excess powder is simply blown out the muzzle with the bullet (or ball) and burns in a big flash. If the bullet isn't seated all the way down it leaves an air space for the powder to burn in, greatly increasing pressures.

Add in the much faster burn rate of smokeless powder and the amount of powder used becomes much more critical, as does the risk involved in not eliminating a void. These aren't inherently dangerous rifles but they ARE much easier to screw up with than regular muzzleloaders, as several shooters have clearly demonstrated.

Or they have a metallurgical fault.

Savage makes an awful lot of guns, mostly cartridge rifles intended for smokeless powder, that are not known for blowing up. Of course, reloaders manage to ruin some by double-charging their loads or trying ill-advised experiments, but overall they are actually very strong, relatively inexpensive guns known for much-better-than-average accuracy.


I had an old boss that used some unlabeled powder to reload a cartridge. When he shot it, the receiver exploded, and a couple pieces of shrapnel cut his cheek. Turns out the unlabeled powder was for blanks. Apparently blank powder is WAY hotter than regular smokeless powder, so as to have high enough pressure to operate the action.

He was pretty lucky to have not lost an eye... or half his face.
 
2017-12-07 03:17:15 AM  
It sounds like Savage Arms really savages your arms!
 
2017-12-07 03:50:48 AM  
The name is really bothering me considering the product. Something about muzzleloaders and savages...
 
2017-12-07 03:57:25 AM  

swahnhennessy: The name is really bothering me considering the product. Something about muzzleloaders and savages...


Don't look up their logo...
 
2017-12-07 03:58:54 AM  

Benjimin_Dover: I wonder why liberals restricted the Consumer Product Safety Commission from having the authority? Hmmmm.


img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2017-12-07 04:43:00 AM  
The 1800s called and want their muzzle loader back.
 
2017-12-07 04:49:57 AM  
That's a feature, not a defect.
 
2017-12-07 05:36:12 AM  
And yet they still make decent and safe guns. Whats up with that?
 
2017-12-07 05:37:51 AM  
At least they have a viscous class action lawsuit forced arbitration to turn to!

/surely justice the NRA and gun lobby, will be served
 
2017-12-07 05:48:22 AM  
Methinks somebody got a batch of Chinese steel for a bargain price.
 
2017-12-07 06:21:08 AM  
Tops your Christmas buying list for that special politician who just shafted you with his super new tax code.

img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2017-12-07 06:33:40 AM  

cynicalbastard: Methinks somebody got a batch of Chinese steel for a bargain price.


Or that Japanese firm that just admitted they'd been passing crap into the global supply chain...

Their nuke plant parts should worry us more than a few bad rifles.
 
2017-12-07 06:37:36 AM  

gunsmack: I don't get the whole muzzle-loader thing. If you just wing, say a black bear for example, and make it really cranky, the 15 seconds or so it takes you to reload (probably inaccurately, due to a pissed off bear heading towards you, while you're sh*tting your pants) seems excessive. Hope these people carry a backup piece.

/ Savage just seems to be saving the bears some time and flesh wounds


The few I've known that hunt with them do indeed carry a modern backup piece, usually a heavier pistol.  Or in some cases a backup human - friend that does black powder hunting goes with another guy that uses a modern hunting rifle.  They basically trade off - when one's shooting the powder gun, the other has the modern rifle up in case a second (or however many) shot is necessary.  He just prefers the powder gun, and shoots pretty well with it so... shrug.  He's usually successful enough with it.  Kinda like people that like to seriously bow hunt - some just prefer older weapons.  Doesn't mean most of them are suicidal though, there will be "you never know" backup available from all but the stupidest/most psycho.  Even the guys that pair off with the powder/modern combo both carry sidearms - but then again they're also doing some pretty serious middle of nowhere hunting - not "I'm 5 minutes from town yeeha bang bang!" stuff.

/also helpful if you bork the shot some and just wound the animal - no one's a perfect shot every time in the field.  You're not gonna have time to reload as it's bailing
//most hunters I've known that are serious about it - not "Let's get shiatfaced and shoot at each other and trade handjobs in the woods" types - don't want to have wounded animals running around
///horrible for the animal, and horrible for anyone else that happens to come across that animal.  A wounded anything is pissed as hell for obvious reasons, and liable to mess someone up
 
2017-12-07 06:55:17 AM  
Giving them to the criminals will solve two problems.
 
2017-12-07 07:01:54 AM  
While I 100% advocate for a recall here, I also kind of understand where the company's coming from not taking this entirely seriously.

Muzzle-loaders, as a hobby, involve setting your own measures, handling raw powder, and possibly manufacturing low explosives (most commonly black powder).  Anyone who values having a full five fingers on each hand isn't going to be involved in the hobby anyhow, and these failures are probably such that the manufacturing defect doesn't really imply much more than a very thin slice of liability, with the bulk of it being the user doing something stupid like over-loading the powder or making their balls over-sized etc.  Sort of a "a dozen things have to be done wrong for this to happen and a weak barrel is only one" situation.

I mean, they have to take it somewhat seriously, but they've stopped making the weak barrels and they've made the defect known.  That's about the extent of what I'd expect them to do.  I'd like a recall but without really consistent registries product recalls aren't much more than making the defect public knowledge anyhow, the only really proper recalls where I've gotten notices for 'em have been automobile-related where the dealer has my address and shiat along with the car's numbers in a file somewhere... not really a thing with guns.
 
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