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(MSN)   Look to buy a new 4K television set for the holidays? Might want to read this article before you do, as not all 4K TV's are created equal   ( msn.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, Black Friday, Best Buy, Christmas and holiday season, Television technology, refresh rate, Cathode ray tube, HDMI ports, Friday 4K TVs  
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4825 clicks; posted to Business » on 23 Nov 2017 at 10:20 AM (29 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2017-11-23 10:00:36 AM  
That's good advice for the HDMI ports and the HDR.  In fact, the more ports the better for all kids of things and make sure they are in a good spot relatively to how you will be using the TV.  For instance, I have a smaller screen that I transfer between outside and inside (humidity here in Houston so it doesn't stay outside) - the OTA antenna plug needs to be easy to access and it has a high-power USB port and the HDMI are well recessed. This means that I can use a ROKU stick and self-power it from the TV.  Moving it outside is just a matter of unplugging the power, carrying it out, snapping it to the wall (quick release bracket) and plugging the power in.
 
2017-11-23 10:21:18 AM  
Really, you mean the 55" 4K Vizio for $399 is somehow different from the 55" 4K Phillips for $3500???
 
2017-11-23 10:23:55 AM  
I'm holding out for 640K. That should be enough for everyone.
 
2017-11-23 10:28:51 AM  
I have an LG OLED, this year's model, 65in. I finally settled on blowing the money because of seeing code by side comparisons. 1080p to 4k is barely noticable on TV content. But the contrast between OLED and regular flat panels was night and day. Also, since I have my media center laptop hooked up, it's a hugely notice shift in reading fonts and the detail needed for a monitor at 40in+.

I had been waffling for over a year, and finally but the bullet. It's a great TV.
 
2017-11-23 10:29:44 AM  
The article missed one thing -- read the fine print about the resolution.  A lot of 4K TVs aren't really in 4K, they're 1080p/2K with an AA filter designed to appear to be 4K.
 
2017-11-23 10:30:47 AM  
That's nice
 
2017-11-23 10:31:41 AM  
I was shocked to find that my neighbor bought a 65' Vizio "TV" that does NOT include any kind of tuner...at all.

It's a glorified computer monitor NTTAWWT
 
2017-11-23 10:36:19 AM  
So not all brands of electronics are equal?  And the ones being sold on Black Friday for $15 might...MIGHT be the lesser model?

To the fainting couch I go.....
 
2017-11-23 10:36:41 AM  

AltheaToldMe: I was shocked to find that my neighbor bought a 65' Vizio "TV" that does NOT include any kind of tuner...at all.

It's a glorified computer monitor NTTAWWT


A lot of them are like that nowadays, aren't they?
 
2017-11-23 10:42:26 AM  

UberDave: That's good advice for the HDMI ports


It's mostly true. The author claims it only happens on Black Friday, but it's more that Costco, Sams/Walmart commission customs specs all year to be a few bucks cheaper.

hashtag.acronym: The article missed one thing -- read the fine print about the resolution.  A lot of 4K TVs aren't really in 4K, they're 1080p/2K with an AA filter designed to appear to be 4K.


Same with 240hz TVs which are jacked up 120hz TVs. You have to dig past the marketing BS and dive into the spec pages to find it's 120hz*
 
2017-11-23 10:46:39 AM  

UberDave: That's good advice for the HDMI ports and the HDR.  In fact, the more ports the better for all kids of things and make sure they are in a good spot relatively to how you will be using the TV.  For instance, I have a smaller screen that I transfer between outside and inside (humidity here in Houston so it doesn't stay outside) - the OTA antenna plug needs to be easy to access and it has a high-power USB port and the HDMI are well recessed. This means that I can use a ROKU stick and self-power it from the TV.  Moving it outside is just a matter of unplugging the power, carrying it out, snapping it to the wall (quick release bracket) and plugging the power in.



   " The more you have the better, otherwise you'll need to add an HDMI extender, which doesn't always work well, or you'll be back and forth unplugging cables from your TV. "

     Video switching receiver. Because TVs don't have speakers I want to listen to.

 Means only 1 video input is required. Why you wanna listen to the TV through it's speakers, why would you do this to your ears?
 
2017-11-23 10:47:02 AM  
Just call them "organic" and git er dun.
Fancy scientific words are for Democrats.
Make America Grate
 
2017-11-23 10:53:11 AM  

Thong_of_Zardoz: A lot of them are like that nowadays, aren't they?


Dunno really.  I have 3 matching Vizio 55" smart tv's from a couple of years ago.  They suit us fine and have tuners we never use anyway.  I guess cord-cutting reduces the need for tuners in televisions overall.

Frankly, we use them as Netflix boxes and computer monitors.  They all have Core i7 machines hooked up using wireless keyboards and trackballs.

Makes sense to us that tuners are gone, but my dad....well, talk about yelling at a cloud!
 
2017-11-23 10:56:28 AM  
I'm actually in this conundrum now. I have a 65" with only 2 HDMI ports. Currently it has the Chromecast and Cable Box plugged into it,leaving me to have to change it around for the PS4. Now, next month the cable box is going away and we're going to streaming only so the PS4 will be back plugged in. But what happens if I want another console, say a Switch? I'm back to square one.
 
2017-11-23 10:56:32 AM  
FTA:

"A huge 4K TV for $350, for example, it probably it."

Who wrote this?
img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2017-11-23 11:04:16 AM  

Quantumbunny: I have an LG OLED, this year's model, 65in. I finally settled on blowing the money because of seeing code by side comparisons. 1080p to 4k is barely noticable on TV content. But the contrast between OLED and regular flat panels was night and day. Also, since I have my media center laptop hooked up, it's a hugely notice shift in reading fonts and the detail needed for a monitor at 40in+.

I had been waffling for over a year, and finally but the bullet. It's a great TV.


Just ordered the same tv! Should be here next week.

I use an HTPC with the current LCD, and am slightly worried about burn-in with the OLED. Have you noticed any issues?
 
2017-11-23 11:04:59 AM  
Any dumb 4Ks anyone would recommend? Not interested in TVs that do more than display what they're fed.
 
2017-11-23 11:06:22 AM  

Cajnik: UberDave: That's good advice for the HDMI ports

It's mostly true. The author claims it only happens on Black Friday, but it's more that Costco, Sams/Walmart commission customs specs all year to be a few bucks cheaper.

hashtag.acronym: The article missed one thing -- read the fine print about the resolution.  A lot of 4K TVs aren't really in 4K, they're 1080p/2K with an AA filter designed to appear to be 4K.

Same with 240hz TVs which are jacked up 120hz TVs. You have to dig past the marketing BS and dive into the spec pages to find it's 120hz*


Yup, absolutely true about costco/sams club/bestbuy.

Years ago I fell into the Bestbuy claim of "if you find this model anywhere for cheaper in the next month (or 90 days or whatever) we will refund you the difference!!"  Sounds great until you find out the Samsung you bought is a model number that is specifically made for Bestbuy and you aren't going to find it anywhere else.  So, meaningless guarantee unless Bestbuy is the one that sells it for a lower price.

Plus, there are usually some variances in the model specs too.
 
2017-11-23 11:09:27 AM  

AltheaToldMe: I was shocked to find that my neighbor bought a 65' Vizio "TV" that does NOT include any kind of tuner...at all.

It's a glorified computer monitor NTTAWWT


Damn how much did a 65 foot screen cost them?
 
2017-11-23 11:13:56 AM  

Officer Barrelroll: Years ago I fell into the Bestbuy claim of "if you find this model anywhere for cheaper in the next month (or 90 days or whatever) we will refund you the difference!!" Sounds great until you find out the Samsung you bought is a model number that is specifically made for Bestbuy and you aren't going to find it anywhere else. So, meaningless guarantee unless Bestbuy is the one that sells it for a lower price.


Not every television they sell is like that.  I picked up a high-end Panasonic plasma from BB just as they were being discontinued.  It was the same model number as everywhere else.  I wonder if they mostly do that with their more mainstream models.
 
2017-11-23 11:18:42 AM  

potterydove: Damn how much did a 65 foot screen cost them?


Dunno, but the crane rental to mount it cost about 12K.

:D
 
2017-11-23 11:20:28 AM  

hashtag.acronym: The article missed one thing -- read the fine print about the resolution.  A lot of 4K TVs aren't really in 4K, they're 1080p/2K with an AA filter designed to appear to be 4K.


Yup. . Too many TV's use shady labels suggesting 120hz or 240hz when they're really only a native 60hz and use shiatty filters for fake higher refresh rates.   It's really a shame most consumers don't know how to look for this shady marketing.
 
2017-11-23 11:25:44 AM  

AltheaToldMe: I was shocked to find that my neighbor bought a 65' Vizio "TV" that does NOT include any kind of tuner...at all.

It's a glorified computer monitor NTTAWWT


In all honesty you probably want to disable any "smart TV" functionality it might have, and not sure what type of tuner you expect installed?  Over the air, cable (did anything replace the never-suppored CableCard?) or what?

I've hear claims that the "cheap stuff" doesn't do "real" 4K but uses the color pixels as a high resolution "chroma" channel.  On the other hand, this is *exactly* how all codecs I've ever seen work (your camera works the same way, and then recodes the bayer camera image into 4:2:2 YUV format).  With a GPU you should be able to get full chroma (4:4:4), but I'd be impressed if that doesn't mean that 2/3 of your pixels aren't 1/3 of a pixel off.

Refresh rate is another big deal.  If you want The Hobbit in all its uncanny valley splendour you will need to be able to run 4K at 60Hz.  To be more serious, this will make a huge difference either gaming or using the thing as a computer monitor

.

Thong_of_Zardoz: Really, you mean the 55" 4K Vizio for $399 is somehow different from the 55" 4K Phillips for $3500???


Vizio is actually a pretty good brand at the low end.  I wouldn't be *that* surprised if certain stores were pushing a $3500 TV that was little more than a rebranded Vizio.  It might just be a "competiting brand" trick to sell the Vizios.  If the big boy is OLED, all bets are off (can they make them that big yet).
 
2017-11-23 11:26:21 AM  
OK.
 
2017-11-23 11:27:11 AM  

I dont want to be on this planet anymore: Video switching receiver. Because TVs don't have speakers I want to listen to.


That's one solution.  But if your receiver is more than a year or two old, it probably doesn't have the newer HDMI 2.0 video ports that you need for 2160p@60Hz.  Replacing your receiver every time there is a video port change seems like a bit of a pain and a waste.
 
2017-11-23 11:28:15 AM  

Thong_of_Zardoz: Really, you mean the 55" 4K Vizio for $399 is somehow different from the 55" 4K Phillips for $3500???


4K is wasted on anything smaller than about a 55 or 60 inch screen.  unless you sit 2 or 3 feet away from it. your eyes cannot see the detail any more than they can see single grains of sand at 10 to 20 feet.  the TV makers know they can snow dummies into shelling out the bucks for 4K.   1080P is fine for screens smaller than 55 or 60 inches.  save your money.
 
2017-11-23 11:29:13 AM  
I don't have 4k eyes, so I'll stick with my old HD until I have a larger cult compound.
 
2017-11-23 11:31:46 AM  

foo monkey: I'm holding out for 640K. That should be enough for everyone.


with a 65 foot screen.  awesome man.
 
2017-11-23 11:39:04 AM  
No one has mentioned Dolby Vision it's the next big thing I hear, right up there with HDR10.
 
2017-11-23 11:40:19 AM  

Linux_Yes: with a 65 foot screen. awesome man.


According to my fat fingers in an above post, my neighbor has one of those!
 
2017-11-23 11:45:23 AM  
I have recently become a giant fan of TCL - their 55" 4K w/HDR is a fantastic deal, and gorgeous picture.

Bonus 1: It comes with Roku TV built in that's super responsive (faster than any other TV I've played with in years).
Bonus 2: The simplest remote I've seen on any product in ages - super convenient.
Bonus 3: Awesome customer service.
 
2017-11-23 11:45:37 AM  
TCL's P and C series  would do these just fine
 
2017-11-23 11:46:06 AM  

Half Right: I have recently become a giant fan of TCL - their 55" 4K w/HDR is a fantastic deal, and gorgeous picture.

Bonus 1: It comes with Roku TV built in that's super responsive (faster than any other TV I've played with in years).
Bonus 2: The simplest remote I've seen on any product in ages - super convenient.
Bonus 3: Awesome customer service.


Less than a minute
 
2017-11-23 11:49:10 AM  

Quantumbunny: I have an LG OLED, this year's model, 65in. I finally settled on blowing the money because of seeing code by side comparisons. 1080p to 4k is barely noticable on TV content. But the contrast between OLED and regular flat panels was night and day. Also, since I have my media center laptop hooked up, it's a hugely notice shift in reading fonts and the detail needed for a monitor at 40in+.

I had been waffling for over a year, and finally but the bullet. It's a great TV.


Apparently the LG OLED is the best OLED TV on the market this year.  Whats better is the panel is the same on all the models so the bottom tier will have the same picture as the most expensive one. The industrial design and some smart tv features would be the only difference.
 
2017-11-23 11:49:53 AM  
I've had my eye on the Samsung Q9F 65", but it seems they went UP in price for black Friday, at least online.
 
hej
2017-11-23 11:51:31 AM  

Quantumbunny: I have an LG OLED, this year's model, 65in. I finally settled on blowing the money because of seeing code by side comparisons. 1080p to 4k is barely noticable on TV content. But the contrast between OLED and regular flat panels was night and day. Also, since I have my media center laptop hooked up, it's a hugely notice shift in reading fonts and the detail needed for a monitor at 40in+.


I'd be curious to hear more about your LG.  Was tempted by the BF deals they have going, but I wanted to get a 70"+ display.
 
2017-11-23 11:54:58 AM  
There is so little 4k content available. A handful of things here and there, but it's not enough to convince me to shell out for a 4k TV right now. Over time the 4k offerings will be expanded and become the rule rather than rare exceptions, and at that point the TVs will have dropped further in price. Maybe then I'll take a look. Or if something happens to my TV.

At present I have a Sony Bravia. It's not 4k and it doesn't have all the features newer TVs do but it scores highly for things like contrast, color accuracy, wide viewing angle, etc. I'd be wary of sacrificing those aspects to get a Black Friday "deal" that can display 4k but doesn't do it "well".
 
2017-11-23 11:58:20 AM  

yet_another_wumpus: In all honesty you probably want to disable any "smart TV" functionality it might have, and not sure what type of tuner you expect installed? Over the air, cable (did anything replace the never-suppored CableCard?) or what?


We really dig the smart functions of our Vizio units.  It's pretty responsive with its apps and it does not have a microphones.

I have a couple of friends that use over-the-air HDTV antennas for their local and national broadcasting.  unless they make an HDMI connected antenna (which I have no reason to doubt they do), a tuner is still desired by some.

Yeah, I am old, but not a full luddite.
 
2017-11-23 12:02:45 PM  
"Weird Al" Yankovic: Alapalooza - Frank's 2000" TV
Youtube glFVXpz_abQ

Go big or go home.
 
2017-11-23 12:08:12 PM  

Marksrevenge: There is so little 4k content available. A handful of things here and there, but it's not enough to convince me to shell out for a 4k TV right now. Over time the 4k offerings will be expanded and become the rule rather than rare exceptions, and at that point the TVs will have dropped further in price. Maybe then I'll take a look.


Yes, but then you'll be under marketing pressure to buy a 16K TV.
 
2017-11-23 12:11:22 PM  

Dinjiin: I dont want to be on this planet anymore: Video switching receiver. Because TVs don't have speakers I want to listen to.

That's one solution.  But if your receiver is more than a year or two old, it probably doesn't have the newer HDMI 2.0 video ports that you need for 2160p@60Hz.  Replacing your receiver every time there is a video port change seems like a bit of a pain and a waste.


Some TVs come with an Audio Return Channel that will send audio back to your receiver from the HDMI port.

You will need a receiver ( actually all devices in the chain ) that is HCDP 2.2 complaint to run 4K video thru.
 
2017-11-23 12:12:10 PM  
Am I the only one who hates the look of a 4k TV?

/10 yr old Samsung still works fine
 
2017-11-23 12:14:21 PM  
I'm just glad I grabbed one of the last Samsung plasmas when I got the chance. It still looks better than most LED TVs I've seen. It's heavy and hot, to be sure, but it has a great picture.
 
2017-11-23 12:15:02 PM  
Buried on the second page of google search results is a very good review site http://www.rtings.com. He goes into very technical detail for those interested.

I ended up going with a Samsung JU7100 60" a couple years based on their recommendations. Picture is fantastic and 4k ready. Hopefully it'll keep chugging along for a while. Ended up buying it direct through Samsung through some work perks site. Saved a few hundred but was a pain the ass.
 
2017-11-23 12:17:05 PM  

ImpendingCynic: Marksrevenge: There is so little 4k content available. A handful of things here and there, but it's not enough to convince me to shell out for a 4k TV right now. Over time the 4k offerings will be expanded and become the rule rather than rare exceptions, and at that point the TVs will have dropped further in price. Maybe then I'll take a look.

Yes, but then you'll be under marketing pressure to buy a 16K TV.


I'll have to build an addition to my house to fit a screen big enough for the difference to be noticeable.
 
2017-11-23 12:17:58 PM  

Cajnik:

Same with 240hz TVs which are jacked up 120hz TVs. You have to dig past the marketing BS and dive into the spec pages to find it's 120hz*

There are no native 240hz TVs.  That's not really a problem, as 120hz is enough.  Even 60hz native with backlight scanning for 120hz 'virtual' refresh is enough you'll never see any flicker, but the problem with 60hz is that when viewing native 24fps content (like most Blu-Rays and UHD Blu-Rays) 24 doesn't go into 60 evenly, so there can be some judder.  Some 60hz native TVs work around this (like some of TCLs TVs) by slowing their refresh rate to 48hz native (doubled to 96hz with backlight scanning) to eliminate the judder, which also works well.  That being said, all things being equal, native 120hz is better.

I dont want to be on this planet anymore:

   " The more you have the better, otherwise you'll need to add an HDMI extender, which doesn't always work well, or you'll be back and forth unplugging cables from your TV. "

     Video switching receiver. Because TVs don't have speakers I want to listen to.

 Means only 1 video input is required. Why you wanna listen to the TV through it's speakers, why would you do this to your ears?


You just have to make sure you have a receiver that actually supports 4K with HDR passthrough, which is limited to receivers built in the last year or two.  HDMI 2.0a with HDCP 2.2 is the spec you need to look for.

If you have an older receiver you need to hook any 4K HDR devices directly to the TV and then use HDMI ARC or optical out from the TV back to the receiver to get sound.

feanorn: Any dumb 4Ks anyone would recommend? Not interested in TVs that do more than display what they're fed.


There are none, but if you want you can just ignore the smart features on most TVs.  Vizios may be the closest, their Smart TV system is Chomecast-based, the TVs basically have a built-in 4K HDR Chromecast receiver and you use a phone or tablet to cast whatever you want to them (though I believe the newest ones do have limited built-in smart features since so many people didn't understand the whole Chromecast thing).

yet_another_wumpus: In all honesty you probably want to disable any "smart TV" functionality it might have, and not sure what type of tuner you expect installed?  Over the air, cable (did anything replace the never-suppored CableCard?) or what?

I've hear claims that the "cheap stuff" doesn't do "real" 4K but uses the color pixels as a high resolution "chroma" channel.  On the other hand, this is *exactly* how all codecs I've ever seen work (your camera works the same way, and then recodes the bayer camera image into 4:2:2 YUV format).  With a GPU you should be able to get full chroma (4:4:4), but I'd be impressed if that doesn't mean that 2/3 of your pixels aren't 1/3 of a pixel off.


I really like the built-in smart features on my Sony Android TV, Sony has been good about pushing firmware updates, and since it's Android based the apps can all be updated independently of Sony.  At some point I realize updates will stop coming, but at that point I can just buy an nVidia Shield, FireTV, or something like that.

LG has released some LCDs that use a RGBW pixel structure instead of the traditional RGB where the white subpixel is shared with adjacent RGB pixels for a lower native resolution (not to be confused with their W-OLEDs in which each individual pixel is RGBW with full native 4K resolution).

When it comes to Chroma, almost all pre-recorded content is 4:2:0 (that's the spec for Blu-Ray and UHD Blu-Ray) so you have full resolution for your luma channel and half or less for your chroma channel.  That's not a problem for movie and TV content, our eyes are much more attuned to seeing differences in brightness levels than slight differences in color, so the difference between 4:2:0 and 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 for movie or TV content isn't visible in almost any circumstances.

Where 4:4:4 really becomes important is if you want to use your TV as a computer monitor.  Viewing small static text the difference is readily visible.

Most TVs these days are using 18gb HDMI ports, which is necessary to get 4K 4:4:4 at 60hz, but some of the cheap Black Friday specials may be using slower ports.  Unfortunately it's not a readily published spec.

This chart breaks it down:

acousticfrontiers.comView Full Size
 
2017-11-23 12:19:40 PM  

Johnsnownw: Quantumbunny: I have an LG OLED, this year's model, 65in. I finally settled on blowing the money because of seeing code by side comparisons. 1080p to 4k is barely noticable on TV content. But the contrast between OLED and regular flat panels was night and day. Also, since I have my media center laptop hooked up, it's a hugely notice shift in reading fonts and the detail needed for a monitor at 40in+.

I had been waffling for over a year, and finally but the bullet. It's a great TV.

Just ordered the same tv! Should be here next week.

I use an HTPC with the current LCD, and am slightly worried about burn-in with the OLED. Have you noticed any issues?


I've had no burn in. I noticed the quality of Web OS 3.0 apps means instead of playing Netflix, Amazon Prime, and Plex on my computer, I actually use the Smart TV features, which likely helps. But it has a screen saver that kicks in when you pause it, little fireworks, which also is supposed to help. The Nintendo Switch has a mode for preventing burn in so I use that. The only things I use the laptop for now are videos on the web, downloaded media, etc. I would be concerned about my PC settings not sleeping, so I set the screen off at like 60 seconds.

Since there's a lot of interest in this thread I'll make a little review, I'll focus on the unknowns and bass, as the goods are really good, and probably found everywhere in every review.

Honestly most annoying thing is I had to buy a new receiver. My old one was 1080p only, and wouldn't even pass through HDMI to the new TV. So that was another few hundred I wasn't planning to have to spend. That's not LGs fault, but I had no idea and messed around for a few hours before stumbling across a few websites where I finally figured out it was the receiver bring incapable, not incompatible settings between the two.

2nd annoying thing is the default after turning on is annoying as I have no TV antenna or cable, so there's a little pop up warning about having no signal until I open an app or change the input. But that's a really minor gripe.

Lack of 4k content is big too. Amazon Prime and Netflix both have sections for it, and there's maybe a few dozen shows. That said the processor in this TV upscales so well, I don't see a problem with 1080p content. Now, prior to to 1080p content, it does what it can, but the letter boxing and grain and detail is notable. I can't fault them for that, but it is painful to try and watch classic shows like Wings or Sports Night or older shows. Modern subtitling is similarly great and sharp, way to read, while old style subtitling, such as those that are yellow in older anime, also don't upscale well, since they are part of the picture, not a separate track.

Other big things I've noticed is that ARC is really really good now, so I have a few things gong into the TV and ARCing to my receiver rather than everything going into the recover and using only 1 HDMI to the TV. Combine that with the crazy good LG remote, and now that has made my harmony remote rather useless. I don't even use it on this TV, which is odd.

The contrast is so crazy good, certain things, like the dark marvel TV shows on Netflix are REALLY dark. But the color pops out amazingly in contrast, and light rays in those scenes look great. It's also made a few things, like the pitch black island in Breath of the Wild disturbingly dark. That's not bad, it's just how black the black is.
 
2017-11-23 12:20:54 PM  
I bought a 55" Samsung Plasma 10+ years ago, and have loved it.  Great contrast, real 240 Hz refresh. Burn in gets a bit crappy if you play a same with a HUD, but it doesn't last to long.  Love it, and not even considering upgrading for a long time.
 
2017-11-23 12:22:57 PM  

ValisIV: I bought a 55" Samsung Plasma 10+ years ago, and have loved it.  Great contrast, real 240 Hz refresh. Burn in gets a bit crappy if you play a same with a HUD, but it doesn't last to long.  Love it, and not even considering upgrading for a long time.


Sheesh, day drinking taking its toll.  Game not same, last too long.
 
2017-11-23 12:23:11 PM  

AltheaToldMe: Linux_Yes: with a 65 foot screen. awesome man.

According to my fat fingers in an above post, my neighbor has one of those!


Shame the USA still uses imperial measurements. If they were smart and switched to metric, it'd be a 65 metre screen instead.
 
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