If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(JSOnline)   Court rules that 3.5x3.5 equals 4x4   ( jsonline.com) divider line
    More: Followup, Plaintiff, lumber, Illinois lumber shoppers, Pleading, So-called dimensional lumber, Lawsuit, Jurisdiction, Judge Edmond Chang  
•       •       •

3966 clicks; posted to Business » on 22 Oct 2017 at 1:58 PM (39 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



99 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


Oldest | « | 1 | 2 | » | Newest | Show all

 
2017-10-22 12:48:33 PM  
This just seems so indicative of the times.
 
2017-10-22 12:56:04 PM  
I buy shiat.  First question:  1/2" pipe.  Ok, are you an electrician or a plumber?

Plumbers go to College to learn how best to make water flow up-hill.
 
2017-10-22 01:04:15 PM  
Did nobody explain dimensional lumber to the judge, the plaintiff or the defendant?

https://www.buildeazy.com/newplans/ea​z​ylist/lumber_size.html
 
2017-10-22 01:04:15 PM  
Also, 2 inches equals 8 inches.
 
2017-10-22 01:04:49 PM  
Twin Peaks FWWM - Two-by-four
Youtube txPcLOtbG3s
 
2017-10-22 01:30:44 PM  
Um, yeah. Duh. Lumber has always been like that.

If you need wood at a more exact measurement than what's normally on the shelves of an ordinary hardware store, chances are you won't find it on the shelves of an ordinary hardware store (although that ordinary hardware store may be able to get it for you special order).
 
2017-10-22 01:38:55 PM  

8 inches: Also, 2 inches equals 8 inches.


That's what he said?
 
2017-10-22 02:03:48 PM  

King Something: Um, yeah. Duh. Lumber has always been like that.

If you need wood at a more exact measurement than what's normally on the shelves of an ordinary hardware store, chances are you won't find it on the shelves of an ordinary hardware store (although that ordinary hardware store may be able to get it for you special order).


You use saws to make wood the size you need.
 
2017-10-22 02:03:56 PM  
Fark those guys. I wonder how much money was spent on attorney fees, court costs, etc. There's gotta be a way to bring some accountability into the civil judicial process.
I just got done with a 5 year process of defending myself and my business from frivolous litigation. They ultimately dropped the case and I have no recourse to collect for my expenses, time and lost sleep.
GRRRRRRRRRRR!

/oh, well. Beer and whiskey have been that much sweeter these past few days
 
2017-10-22 02:12:28 PM  
Whoever filed this suit needs to be kicked in the balls.
 
2017-10-22 02:16:18 PM  

Nick Nostril: Whoever filed this suit needs to be kicked hit in the balls with a 4x4.


I think this would be more appropriate.
 
2017-10-22 02:20:09 PM  

SirSigsegV: Nick Nostril: Whoever filed this suit needs to be kicked hit in the balls with a 4x4.

I think this would be more appropriate.


Or a 3.5 x 3.5.  Either is fine.
 
2017-10-22 02:23:08 PM  

MrBallou: Did nobody explain dimensional lumber to the judge, the plaintiff or the defendant?

https://www.buildeazy.com/newplans/eaz​ylist/lumber_size.html


Yes. Somebody did and the judge dismissed the lawsuit.
 
2017-10-22 02:23:41 PM  

Nick Nostril: Whoever filed this suit needs to be kicked in the balls.


Menards to the lawsuit filers: ♩Hey there honey, lick my narrrrrrrds! ♩
 
2017-10-22 02:24:39 PM  

Nick Nostril: Whoever filed this suit needs to be kicked in the balls.


Michael Fuchs and Vladislav Krasilnikov, along with (probably encouraged by) McGuire Law, the Chicago-based class action firm that represented Fuchs and Krasilnikov.
 
2017-10-22 02:32:11 PM  

AmbassadorBooze: SirSigsegV: Nick Nostril: Whoever filed this suit needs to be kicked hit in the balls with a 4x4.

I think this would be more appropriate.

Or a 3.5 x 3.5.  Either is fine.


Needed an actual 4"x 4" fir board for rebuilding an exterior door frame.. got it at a lumberyard.. not going to find that at Lowes..  lots of older houses around here have rough cut joists, and it is rather pricey to match them for replacement..  sandwiching damaged ones can be done with standard lumber.
 
2017-10-22 02:36:47 PM  
I'm unclear why the stores would be so against updating their little paper stickers to show the actual dimensions. It's a paper sticker they update frequently as prices change, and Lowes was sued years ago for the same thing so they can't claim they had no idea.

I mean, it bothered me when 'half gallons' of ice cream started being 1.75 quarts instead of 2 but the packaging at least stated the correct size.

The damages being sought were absurd but labeling what you sell shouldn't be something a retailer is against.
 
2017-10-22 02:36:49 PM  
they have a pending suit against Home Depot,
 
2017-10-22 02:44:11 PM  

dailygrinds: Fark those guys. I wonder how much money was spent on attorney fees, court costs, etc. There's gotta be a way to bring some accountability into the civil judicial process.
I just got done with a 5 year process of defending myself and my business from frivolous litigation. They ultimately dropped the case and I have no recourse to collect for my expenses, time and lost sleep.
GRRRRRRRRRRR!

/oh, well. Beer and whiskey have been that much sweeter these past few days


"Sweet" beer and whiskey?

Sounds like you should sue someone over that.
 
2017-10-22 02:50:36 PM  

Shazam999: King Something: Um, yeah. Duh. Lumber has always been like that.

If you need wood at a more exact measurement than what's normally on the shelves of an ordinary hardware store, chances are you won't find it on the shelves of an ordinary hardware store (although that ordinary hardware store may be able to get it for you special order).

You use saws to make wood the size you need.


Saws cant make lumber bigger...
 
2017-10-22 02:58:48 PM  

itsdan: I'm unclear why the stores would be so against updating their little paper stickers to show the actual dimensions. It's a paper sticker they update frequently as prices change, and Lowes was sued years ago for the same thing so they can't claim they had no idea.

I mean, it bothered me when 'half gallons' of ice cream started being 1.75 quarts instead of 2 but the packaging at least stated the correct size.

The damages being sought were absurd but labeling what you sell shouldn't be something a retailer is against.


Because the people buying the overwhelming majority 4x4's and 2x4's know what they're getting. Because when architects design houses, they know that that a 4x4 actually measures 3.5".

It isn't just Lowes that would have to change the stickers when they're selling - every part of the home building process, from the carpenters, architects, foreman, has to change simultaneously, otherwise it creates  huge disruptions that can get expensive, all too accommodate the rare person who can't be bothered to learn that every industry has quirks.

Lumber suppliers aren't mislabeling their product to

With lumber, this is one quirk of the industry - 4x4's measure 3.5" by 3.5", because some wood is lost during the finishing process (They're made from rough-hewn pieces of wood that measure 4" by 4").

Also, when the blueprints call for an 8' wall, it actually needs to measure 8' 1/4" to accommodate the sheet rock. Quirk of the industry.
 
2017-10-22 03:11:39 PM  

drumhellar: t isn't just Lowes that would have to change the stickers when they're selling - every part of the home building process, from the carpenters, architects, foreman, has to change simultaneously, otherwise it creates huge disruptions that can get expensive, all too accommodate the rare person who can't be bothered to learn that every industry has quirks.


What the hell are you talking about? Lowes labels their dimensional wood products as 2x4 and then in parentheses puts "Actual size: 3.5in x 1.5in".
 
2017-10-22 03:15:44 PM  
Here's an example of how at least the few lowes stores near me mark their items. Not sure why as a company you'd be so against this that you'd go to court over it.

cdnassets.hw.netView Full Size
 
2017-10-22 03:16:00 PM  
this whole thing is just menarded.
 
2017-10-22 03:17:31 PM  

wejash: dailygrinds: Fark those guys. I wonder how much money was spent on attorney fees, court costs, etc. There's gotta be a way to bring some accountability into the civil judicial process.
I just got done with a 5 year process of defending myself and my business from frivolous litigation. They ultimately dropped the case and I have no recourse to collect for my expenses, time and lost sleep.
GRRRRRRRRRRR!

/oh, well. Beer and whiskey have been that much sweeter these past few days

"Sweet" beer and whiskey?

Sounds like you should sue someone over that.


Sweet, like this -
monkeysarcades.comView Full Size

I like my beers bitter and my scotch tasting like a hospital caught on fire and they collected all the water afterwards and made whiskey out of it.
 
2017-10-22 03:25:13 PM  

itsdan: drumhellar: t isn't just Lowes that would have to change the stickers when they're selling - every part of the home building process, from the carpenters, architects, foreman, has to change simultaneously, otherwise it creates huge disruptions that can get expensive, all too accommodate the rare person who can't be bothered to learn that every industry has quirks.

What the hell are you talking about? Lowes labels their dimensional wood products as 2x4 and then in parentheses puts "Actual size: 3.5in x 1.5in".


And two people smarted that odd claim, too.
 
2017-10-22 03:32:02 PM  

King Something: Um, yeah. Duh. Lumber has always been like that.

If you need wood at a more exact measurement than what's normally on the shelves of an ordinary hardware store, chances are you won't find it on the shelves of an ordinary hardware store (although that ordinary hardware store may be able to get it for you special order).


I make a little beer money now and again making wood to exact dimensions for people restoring or fixing things.  My garage is a pretty kick ass wood shop that's far above John Q Public's home shop.  Someday all my equipment may actually pay for itself.

/working on CNC plans so I can spit out adirondak chairs easily...not that they're hard to make to begin with
 
2017-10-22 03:50:11 PM  
media.collegetimes.comView Full Size
 
2017-10-22 03:51:49 PM  

wejash: dailygrinds: Fark those guys. I wonder how much money was spent on attorney fees, court costs, etc. There's gotta be a way to bring some accountability into the civil judicial process.
I just got done with a 5 year process of defending myself and my business from frivolous litigation. They ultimately dropped the case and I have no recourse to collect for my expenses, time and lost sleep.
GRRRRRRRRRRR!

/oh, well. Beer and whiskey have been that much sweeter these past few days

"Sweet" beer and whiskey?

Sounds like you should sue someone over that.


The proper term is malty, and yeah a lot of us got over the super IPA fad about ten years ago
 
2017-10-22 04:05:32 PM  

Nick Nostril: Whoever filed this suit needs to be kicked in the balls.


I would start by kicking the person who decided it was OK to label the wood incorrectly, but they're probably dead.  Hopefully, their coffins are exactly half an inch too small.
 
2017-10-22 04:15:25 PM  
Lumber can be confusing. One of the door frames in the addition on my house has a 2x6 on one side and a 2" x 6" board on the other. Was a royal pain when I replaced the door.

The addition was built in 1988, so no chance of it being an old vs new problem.
 
2017-10-22 04:16:08 PM  

itsdan: I'm unclear why the stores would be so against updating their little paper stickers to show the actual dimensions. It's a paper sticker they update frequently as prices change, and Lowes was sued years ago for the same thing so they can't claim they had no idea.

I mean, it bothered me when 'half gallons' of ice cream started being 1.75 quarts instead of 2 but the packaging at least stated the correct size.

The damages being sought were absurd but labeling what you sell shouldn't be something a retailer is against.


If you *really* want, I can run to Menards and take a few pics, but I'm fairly certain they have "actual size" on the price tag, even if their big signs say "2x2, 2x4" et. al.

/I do like excuses to go to hardware stores.
//especially to get away from the 7 year old.
 
2017-10-22 04:16:22 PM  

drumhellar: itsdan: I'm unclear why the stores would be so against updating their little paper stickers to show the actual dimensions. It's a paper sticker they update frequently as prices change, and Lowes was sued years ago for the same thing so they can't claim they had no idea.

I mean, it bothered me when 'half gallons' of ice cream started being 1.75 quarts instead of 2 but the packaging at least stated the correct size.

The damages being sought were absurd but labeling what you sell shouldn't be something a retailer is against.

Because the people buying the overwhelming majority 4x4's and 2x4's know what they're getting. Because when architects design houses, they know that that a 4x4 actually measures 3.5".

It isn't just Lowes that would have to change the stickers when they're selling - every part of the home building process, from the carpenters, architects, foreman, has to change simultaneously, otherwise it creates  huge disruptions that can get expensive, all too accommodate the rare person who can't be bothered to learn that every industry has quirks.

Lumber suppliers aren't mislabeling their product to

With lumber, this is one quirk of the industry - 4x4's measure 3.5" by 3.5", because some wood is lost during the finishing process (They're made from rough-hewn pieces of wood that measure 4" by 4").

Also, when the blueprints call for an 8' wall, it actually needs to measure 8' 1/4" to accommodate the sheet rock. Quirk of the industry.



Not many mills make rough-hewn lumber these days, most of it is sawn.

A single layer of 1/4 GWB on the celing?  Not up to code , 1/2" or 5/8" is code in most places.

Standard pre-cut studs are 92 5/8" for 8-foot walls.  With a sole plate and double top plates, that gives a total rough wall  height of 97 1/8". With 5/8" GWB and 1/2" underlayment, the result is an 8-foot wall.

/when I started in the building trades, 2 x 4s were 1 5/8" x 3 5/8". The changeover was amusing for some of the old-timers who never threw anything away.
 
2017-10-22 04:19:23 PM  
Well their website is pretty bloody clear on it anyway.
img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2017-10-22 04:21:04 PM  

drumhellar: itsdan: I'm unclear why the stores would be so against updating their little paper stickers to show the actual dimensions. It's a paper sticker they update frequently as prices change, and Lowes was sued years ago for the same thing so they can't claim they had no idea.

I mean, it bothered me when 'half gallons' of ice cream started being 1.75 quarts instead of 2 but the packaging at least stated the correct size.

The damages being sought were absurd but labeling what you sell shouldn't be something a retailer is against.

Because the people buying the overwhelming majority 4x4's and 2x4's know what they're getting. Because when architects design houses, they know that that a 4x4 actually measures 3.5".

It isn't just Lowes that would have to change the stickers when they're selling - every part of the home building process, from the carpenters, architects, foreman, has to change simultaneously, otherwise it creates  huge disruptions that can get expensive, all too accommodate the rare person who can't be bothered to learn that every industry has quirks.

Lumber suppliers aren't mislabeling their product to

With lumber, this is one quirk of the industry - 4x4's measure 3.5" by 3.5", because some wood is lost during the finishing process (They're made from rough-hewn pieces of wood that measure 4" by 4").

Also, when the blueprints call for an 8' wall, it actually needs to measure 8' 1/4" to accommodate the sheet rock. Quirk of the industry.


^ This

It's like how a 'quarter pound' burger doesn't mean you get a quarter pound of cooked meat; it's the weight that they started with.
 
2017-10-22 04:22:54 PM  

ajgeek: If you *really* want, I can run to Menards and take a few pics, but I'm fairly certain they have "actual size" on the price tag, even if their big signs say "2x2, 2x4" et. al.


I can confirm; their website lists the 'real' sizes:
https://www.menards.com/main/building​-​materials/lumber-boards/dimensional-lu​mber/2-x-4-x-8-premium-construction-fr​aming-lumber/p-1444445103491-c-13125.h​tm?tid=-2856947477953784747&ipos=1
 
2017-10-22 04:23:00 PM  

OlderGuy: AmbassadorBooze: SirSigsegV: Nick Nostril: Whoever filed this suit needs to be kicked hit in the balls with a 4x4.

I think this would be more appropriate.

Or a 3.5 x 3.5.  Either is fine.

Needed an actual 4"x 4" fir board for rebuilding an exterior door frame.. got it at a lumberyard.. not going to find that at Lowes..  lots of older houses around here have rough cut joists, and it is rather pricey to match them for replacement..  sandwiching damaged ones can be done with standard lumber.


Nothing's offered rough cut anymore, you got a post that was 6"x6" and was ripped down, and then the lumber yard charged you for the artisanal privilege.
 
2017-10-22 04:24:54 PM  

skiinstructor: Shazam999: King Something: Um, yeah. Duh. Lumber has always been like that.

If you need wood at a more exact measurement than what's normally on the shelves of an ordinary hardware store, chances are you won't find it on the shelves of an ordinary hardware store (although that ordinary hardware store may be able to get it for you special order).

You use saws to make wood the size you need.

Saws cant make lumber bigger...


What you do is you have to plan, so that you buy pieces that are bigger than you need, or you put pieces together, and you rip them down.

Shocking I know.
 
2017-10-22 04:26:25 PM  

natazha: Lumber can be confusing. One of the door frames in the addition on my house has a 2x6 on one side and a 2" x 6" board on the other. Was a royal pain when I replaced the door.

The addition was built in 1988, so no chance of it being an old vs new problem.


Sounds to me like someone cut down a larger piece for you to have a 2" x 6".  Dimensional lumber has been "small" for decades.
 
2017-10-22 04:33:53 PM  

Gary-L: natazha: Lumber can be confusing. One of the door frames in the addition on my house has a 2x6 on one side and a 2" x 6" board on the other. Was a royal pain when I replaced the door.

The addition was built in 1988, so no chance of it being an old vs new problem.

Sounds to me like someone cut down a larger piece for you to have a 2" x 6".  Dimensional lumber has been "small" for decades.


More like centuries...or at least a  century.
 
2017-10-22 04:34:50 PM  

MrBallou: Did nobody explain dimensional lumber to the judge, the plaintiff or the defendant?

https://www.buildeazy.com/newplans/eaz​ylist/lumber_size.html


Or the difference between dimensional lumber and "boards" to the author of TFA?

In addition to shrinkage due to surfacing, nominal dimensions are for green wood.  Drying wood results in some shrinkage as well.
 
2017-10-22 04:38:42 PM  

stan unusual: MrBallou: Did nobody explain dimensional lumber to the judge, the plaintiff or the defendant?

https://www.buildeazy.com/newplans/eaz​ylist/lumber_size.html

Or the difference between dimensional lumber and "boards" to the author of TFA?

In addition to shrinkage due to surfacing, nominal dimensions are for green wood.  Drying wood results in some shrinkage as well.


I WAS IN THE POOL!
 
2017-10-22 04:39:27 PM  

itsdan: I'm unclear why the stores would be so against updating their little paper stickers to show the actual dimensions. It's a paper sticker they update frequently as prices change, and Lowes was sued years ago for the same thing so they can't claim they had no idea.

I mean, it bothered me when 'half gallons' of ice cream started being 1.75 quarts instead of 2 but the packaging at least stated the correct size.

The damages being sought were absurd but labeling what you sell shouldn't be something a retailer is against.


It's not just a labeling matter.  It's a long-standing industry standard.  I was aware of it by the time I was nine years old.  For anyone who has bought lumber more than once it actually could be confusing if it was labeled with actual dimensions.
 
2017-10-22 04:39:57 PM  

Gough: when I started in the building trades, 2 x 4s were 1 5/8" x 3 5/8". The changeover was amusing for some of the old-timers who never threw anything away.


Those are the dimensions I learned in wood shop.  But Noah was the teacher so.....
 
2017-10-22 04:40:58 PM  

cyberspacedout: stan unusual: MrBallou: Did nobody explain dimensional lumber to the judge, the plaintiff or the defendant?

https://www.buildeazy.com/newplans/eaz​ylist/lumber_size.html

Or the difference between dimensional lumber and "boards" to the author of TFA?

In addition to shrinkage due to surfacing, nominal dimensions are for green wood.  Drying wood results in some shrinkage as well.

I WAS IN THE POOL!


You win the thread.
 
2017-10-22 04:42:58 PM  

ajgeek: If you *really* want, I can run to Menards and take a few pics, but I'm fairly certain they have "actual size" on the price tag, even if their big signs say "2x2, 2x4" et. al.


From an earlier article when the suit was piled: http://www.jsonline.com/story/money/b​u​siness/retail/2017/06/21/whacked-4-x-4​-menards-home-depot-face-lawsuits-over​-descriptions-lumber-size/405300001/
"With some of Menards' lumber products, both the nominal and actual size are shown, a document Turin filed in the case against Menards says. But the lumber in question is labeled only with a nominal size "
 
2017-10-22 04:44:43 PM  

stan unusual: Gough: when I started in the building trades, 2 x 4s were 1 5/8" x 3 5/8". The changeover was amusing for some of the old-timers who never threw anything away.

Those are the dimensions I learned in wood shop.  But Noah was the teacher so.....


You didn't learn to use cubits???
 
2017-10-22 04:45:30 PM  

dailygrinds: I like my beers bitter and my scotch tasting like a hospital caught on fire and they collected all the water afterwards and made whiskey out of it.


So, Islay fan?
 
2017-10-22 04:50:05 PM  
Trust me. My family has been in all parts of the lumber industry for centuries, from planting the trees to writing the books printed on wood pulp.

A two-by-four has always, always, always been 1.5 x 3.5. The number inches is not meant to be exact, but is a pre-trimming measurement. Delivery size may vary.

You might say that the delivery size of wood is always less than the advertised, pre-shipping size.

Might you not? Ladies. I am looking in your direction. You know what I am talking about.

Mind you, I think that some mills are really rotten and go too far with this old tradition, delivering crappy product that is barely useful as tooth-picks, let alone construction material. Mind you, ever thing is held together with glue and staples nowadays. Even Monster Homes with their paper thin veneers of marble, granite and fine wood.

IT SICKENS ME. I TELL YAH, IT SICKENS ME. I am about as City Slicker Born and Bred as they come. I have read Proust in the original French (all except for the next to the last book, because I can't take much Albertine). But there is a lot of ancestral knowledge of trees, lumber, carpentry, furniture-making and so forth that runs in my peasant and artisan blood for hundreds of years. It gets into your brain through a sort of osmosis. like hunting, fishing and how to hide the butcher's heavy thumb when weighing meat.

You can take the boy out of the woods, but you can't take the folk knowledge out of the boy.

And another thing, a cup of tea is half a cup of tea. This is the law of the tea table. It is ancient and based in deep common sense. Easier to poor another half cup than to save a ruined table or table cloth. Besides, who wants a whole cup of tea when paying visits to all of your close personal frenemies. Most of the time you just cross your aristocratic fingers and hope your friends and family are not "at home" so you can use one of your visiting cards and heave a grateful sigh of relief.
 
2017-10-22 04:55:26 PM  

skiinstructor: Shazam999: King Something: Um, yeah. Duh. Lumber has always been like that.

If you need wood at a more exact measurement than what's normally on the shelves of an ordinary hardware store, chances are you won't find it on the shelves of an ordinary hardware store (although that ordinary hardware store may be able to get it for you special order).

You use saws to make wood the size you need.

Saws cant make lumber bigger...


CSB:  a few weeks ago, I was at our "local" getting some 5x5s of plywood (!) One of the yardmen was breaking down so I could get it into my truck.  I made some comment about the mythical "board stretcher" and he told me that one of the new guys had just been sent to get one yesterday.  Apparently, he had spent a day and a half looking before this guy took pity on him and let him in on the joke.

I guess it's a timeless classic.
 
Displayed 50 of 99 comments


Oldest | « | 1 | 2 | » | Newest | Show all


View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking

On Twitter





Top Commented
Javascript is required to view headlines in widget.
  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report