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(Guardian)   Will British racing driver Lewis Hamilton kneel during the American anthem at F1's US Grand Prix?   ( theguardian.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, Hamilton, Grand Prix, Francisco 49ers quarterback, Mercedes team-mate Valtteri, Lewis Hamilton, spark plug failure, world champion, Honda power unit  
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357 clicks; posted to Sports » on 20 Oct 2017 at 10:50 AM (38 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2017-10-20 09:05:49 AM  
Why do Americans play their own national anthem so much? Growing up in England, I only recall hearing it on "state occasions" or before international games at Wembley.

Oh, and when I was very young I remember a cinema that played it at the end of the programme, but I think that was just to encourage people to get out of their seats.

Also, why all the flags? And why do used car lots have the biggest ones?
 
2017-10-20 10:06:22 AM  

czetie: Why do Americans play their own national anthem so much? Growing up in England, I only recall hearing it on "state occasions" or before international games at Wembley.

Oh, and when I was very young I remember a cinema that played it at the end of the programme, but I think that was just to encourage people to get out of their seats.

Also, why all the flags? And why do used car lots have the biggest ones?


We don't have a lot of people who step up and do their part. Less than 5% of us ever join the military so we're keen on extolling our grandparents' WWII sacrifices making us great. In general, any kind of public service is not in our plans so we fake it by waving flags and singing songs as much as possible. We find it's important everyone see us doing this so they know how patriotic we are and that in our hearts we are ever devoted to our ideals even if our butts are usually on the sofa. Lest anyone not see how hard we sing the Anthem on the corner, we'll rant and rave in a second if someone doesn't follow the invisible rules so it's clear as day what patriots we are.

It's kind of like church or living in North Korea but you get the idea.
 
2017-10-20 11:01:43 AM  

czetie: Why do Americans play their own national anthem so much? Growing up in England, I only recall hearing it on "state occasions" or before international games at Wembley.

Oh, and when I was very young I remember a cinema that played it at the end of the programme, but I think that was just to encourage people to get out of their seats.

Also, why all the flags? And why do used car lots have the biggest ones?


So you never watched the Olympics or saw a podium for a F1 race ?
 
2017-10-20 11:04:23 AM  
They play the host countries anthem before every F1 race in every country. Playing the anthem at international sporting events is one of the few appropriate times to play it for sports.
 
2017-10-20 11:08:51 AM  
he love attention, not that kind though
 
2017-10-20 11:11:05 AM  

RankStranger: czetie: Why do Americans play their own national anthem so much? Growing up in England, I only recall hearing it on "state occasions" or before international games at Wembley.

Oh, and when I was very young I remember a cinema that played it at the end of the programme, but I think that was just to encourage people to get out of their seats.

Also, why all the flags? And why do used car lots have the biggest ones?

So you never watched the Olympics or saw a podium for a F1 race ?


In fairness the last time I heard the national anthem here was when we had the Olympics in London. And I can't remember the last time I sang it... school?

We just don't really go in for it that much.
 
2017-10-20 11:35:37 AM  

czetie: Why do Americans play their own national anthem so much? Growing up in England, I only recall hearing it on "state occasions" or before international games at Wembley.

Oh, and when I was very young I remember a cinema that played it at the end of the programme, but I think that was just to encourage people to get out of their seats.

Also, why all the flags? And why do used car lots have the biggest ones?


I dunno, maybe cause every nation on earth plays its national anthem before a sporting event.

I know you like to think it's just America, but it's not, it's kind of a world wide custom.
Why all the flags?
img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2017-10-20 11:37:47 AM  

RankStranger: czetie: Why do Americans play their own national anthem so much? Growing up in England, I only recall hearing it on "state occasions" or before international games at Wembley.

Oh, and when I was very young I remember a cinema that played it at the end of the programme, but I think that was just to encourage people to get out of their seats.

Also, why all the flags? And why do used car lots have the biggest ones?

So you never watched the Olympics or saw a podium for a F1 race ?


Those are international events where the sportspeople are representing their country.

Just seems really odd to play the national anthem in solely domestic sports events.
 
2017-10-20 11:43:15 AM  

mrsleep: I dunno, maybe cause every nation on earth plays its national anthem before a sporting event.


Not before domestic events. Am I right in thinking that the closest the NFL gets to an international fixture is games at Wembley?

/Also kinda cute that the pic you posted was BMW MINIs.
//Albeit UK registered ones.
 
2017-10-20 11:53:40 AM  

Dead for Tax Reasons: he love attention, not that kind though


Don't be so sure.
 
2017-10-20 11:54:10 AM  
Forced patriotism is forced. Stop playing the damn song so much. Also it's not disrespectful to take a knee.
 
2017-10-20 12:05:55 PM  
It's not even his anthem.  They listen to "My Country Tis of Thee" over there.
 
2017-10-20 12:27:56 PM  

RankStranger: So you never ... saw a podium for a F1 race ?


A 90s kid would be more acquainted with Deutschland Uber Alles.
 
2017-10-20 01:24:23 PM  

czetie: Why do Americans play their own national anthem so much? Growing up in England, I only recall hearing it on "state occasions" or before international games at Wembley.


Why does England play the American national anthem on state occasions?
 
2017-10-20 01:27:01 PM  

czetie: Why do Americans play their own national anthem so much? Growing up in England, I only recall hearing it on "state occasions" or before international games at Wembley.

Oh, and when I was very young I remember a cinema that played it at the end of the programme, but I think that was just to encourage people to get out of their seats.

Also, why all the flags? And why do used car lots have the biggest ones?


It started as a crass marketing ploy during WWI.
 
2017-10-20 01:27:41 PM  

mrsleep: I dunno, maybe cause every nation on earth plays its national anthem before a sporting event.

I know you like to think it's just America, but it's not, it's kind of a world wide custom.


I grew up in England, I've lived in France, worked in Germany for a significant time,  I've spent time in many other countries, and now I live in the US.

And I'm here to tell you it's not; not even remotely the way it is in the US.

In England we'd hear the National Anthem before the cup final; or, as somebody upthread pointed out, prize ceremonies for international sporting events where people represent their countries. Not remotely the way its played here before every single sporting event, all the way down to school sports.

And the flags thing. I can't think of any other country where it's considered completely unremarkable for somebody to have a flagpole on their suburban lawn.

Anyway, TIL that some Americans have no idea how exceptional their behavior is compared to other western democracies.
 
2017-10-20 01:28:48 PM  

czetie: mrsleep: I dunno, maybe cause every nation on earth plays its national anthem before a sporting event.

I know you like to think it's just America, but it's not, it's kind of a world wide custom.

I grew up in England, I've lived in France, worked in Germany for a significant time,  I've spent time in many other countries, and now I live in the US.

And I'm here to tell you it's not; not even remotely the way it is in the US.

In England we'd hear the National Anthem before the cup final; or, as somebody upthread pointed out, prize ceremonies for international sporting events where people represent their countries. Not remotely the way its played here before every single sporting event, all the way down to school sports.

And the flags thing. I can't think of any other country where it's considered completely unremarkable for somebody to have a flagpole on their suburban lawn.

Anyway, TIL that some Americans have no idea how exceptional their behavior is compared to other western democracies.


Finally, an example of this "American exceptionalism" I keep hearing about!
 
2017-10-20 01:36:18 PM  

czetie: And the flags thing. I can't think of any other country where it's considered completely unremarkable for somebody to have a flagpole on their suburban lawn.


Canada must come close. Driving through Ontario and even Québec there were huge maple leaf flags in almost every front garden.
 
2017-10-20 01:38:24 PM  
I can also understand why Lewis might not want to kneel. It's one thing for an American to protest against an American issue. It's another thing for a visitor to the country to protest.
 
2017-10-20 01:41:07 PM  
Did that F1 venue in New Jersey ever happen?   Going up and down the West side of the Hudson River?
 
2017-10-20 01:52:52 PM  

czetie: Why do Americans play their own national anthem so much? Growing up in England, I only recall hearing it on "state occasions" or before international games at Wembley.

Oh, and when I was very young I remember a cinema that played it at the end of the programme, but I think that was just to encourage people to get out of their seats.


...did you grow up after BBC1 quit closing down at night?
 
2017-10-20 02:46:11 PM  

ElectricPeterTork: czetie: Why do Americans play their own national anthem so much? Growing up in England, I only recall hearing it on "state occasions" or before international games at Wembley.

Oh, and when I was very young I remember a cinema that played it at the end of the programme, but I think that was just to encourage people to get out of their seats.

...did you grow up after BBC1 quit closing down at night?


I grew up when BBC2 was young, colour was a novelty, and seeing a test card in the middle of the day was unremarkable.
 
2017-10-20 05:01:35 PM  
Flying the British flag is more common now than it was a decade or so back. I think the London Olympics brought it back into being a little more socially acceptable than it was before.

Flying the England flag though... oooh boy, that sends all sorts of other signals.

Chap near where I used to live had a flagpole in his front yard, flew the English flag most of the time. Switched it to the British one only during the Olympics. Everyone assumed he was a brexit type (because of the usual connotations of flying the England flag instead of the union one) but he flew the eu flag during the whole referendum campaign.

He is literally the only person I've ever known in my entire life living in England to have flown any flag in their yard.

It's... just not what we do. All those T shirts and car stickers and that... it's not usually actual Brits that have them, tends to be visitors for the most part. We seem to have a pretty strong aversion to it, most of the time. Oddly I've had friends move to the us who then seem to be quite happy to wear union flag hats, scarves, t shirts etc... all the time while there.
 
2017-10-20 06:56:03 PM  

Cyrene Valantion: He is literally the only person I've ever known in my entire life living in England to have flown any flag in their yard.

It's... just not what we do. All those T shirts and car stickers and that... it's not usually actual Brits that have them, tends to be visitors for the most part.


I agree. I can't think of a single house that I know of that has a British flag flying on or outside it. Apart from Buckingham Palace...
Except during something like the world cup or the Olympics.
 
2017-10-20 07:10:51 PM  

sephjnr: RankStranger: So you never ... saw a podium for a F1 race ?

A 90s kid would be more acquainted with Deutschland Uber Alles.


and Il Canto degli Italiani
 
2017-10-20 07:23:38 PM  
Incidentally, to return to the actual subject of the thread:

No, Lewis will not take a knee.

It's a tossup between which sporting organisation is more corrupt: the FIA, or FIFA.

IIRC, the hosting nation's national anthem being played before the race started at Sochi's inaugural race. Putin greeted the winners before the podium.

During the Arab Spring, there was much speculation that the Bahrain race could be cancelled; the drivers all participated.

Of the races added to the calendar over the past couple of decades, which are in liberal democracies, and which are in countries with authoritarian dictatorships?

Austin may be the only one in a supposed liberal democracy... while Bernie tightened the screws on the traditional F1 races, threatening Silverstone, Imola et al with removal from the calendar.

I watch F1 because it's engineering miracles making noise, going fast and doing driving. The backend details of how the FIA ensnares authoritarian governments to let them have races there is probably less impressive.

But it's totally mad to suggest that Lewis, and only Lewis, should join in protests against racial inequality in the US, particularly as he's the only black guy on the grid.
 
2017-10-20 08:13:03 PM  

iron de havilland: Austin may be the only one in a supposed liberal democracy... while Bernie tightened the screws on the traditional F1 races, threatening Silverstone, Imola et al with removal from the calendar.


Bernie is no longer the boss AFAIK, with him selling up and getting an 'Honorary' Chairmanship or something.

And yeah, he'd have had a Grand Prix in North Korea if they wrote a big enough cheque while getting a regular race in the US, a huge market, seemed very low on his priorities.
The splitting up of the TV income between teams is also a huge issue, with Ferrari getting most of the cash. When they're trying to impose all sorts of rules limiting the number of engines etc "to help keep costs down" while at the same time giving the biggest team the most cash to help them win is just bizarre. Want to make the sport better? Give more money to the smaller teams.

/The New York (well, New Jersey) race proposed a couple of years ago looked great.
 
2017-10-20 08:24:59 PM  

Carter Pewterschmidt: Bernie is no longer the boss AFAIK, with him selling up and getting an 'Honorary' Chairmanship or something.


True, but this is the first season without Bernie at the helm, and Bernie's as bad as Blatter.
 
2017-10-20 09:37:31 PM  

iron de havilland: Carter Pewterschmidt: Bernie is no longer the boss AFAIK, with him selling up and getting an 'Honorary' Chairmanship or something.

True, but this is the first season without Bernie at the helm, and Bernie's as bad as Blatter.


Is there anyone at the top of F1 who isn't a dick? Mosely is trying to gag the press. Jean Marie Balestre would do anything to help Prost win, Ferrari are dicks who preferred to fark up F1 in the US as long as they could win a race with only four other cars taking part (and who cheat when it comes to reviewing their road cars) etc.

/I actually liked Vettel a lot until he rammed Lewis and then refused to admit he'd done anything wrong. A better man would have said "Sorry I hit you Lewis, I farked up" when they were out of the car. Had he done so he'd have won that race when Ham had to pit. Being in Farrari has obviously affected him.
 
2017-10-20 11:10:07 PM  

Carter Pewterschmidt: Is there anyone at the top of F1 who isn't a dick?


I do like Hamilton. I like Coulthard. Eddie Jordan - meh. Lee McKenzie is cool. Suzi Perry was great. Susie Wolff. I'm not going to stink up the actual thread for the race on Sunday, but the goings on in the US do not really bolster the idea that America isn't full of racists who may hate Hamilton just for who he is.
 
2017-10-21 03:22:53 AM  
The new guy in charge, Chase, has wisely decided that the sport should go back to having the person doing the commercial deals not also be the same person handling technicals and rule changes.

Ross Brawn runs the tech side now. You're not going to see radical shifts in the rules on a one year time scale. He's very publicly said the changes he wants to make are over a much longer time scale. Get it right, with the backing of all the teams, rather than a knee jerk 'lets completely change the qualifying format days before the start of the season!' type thing that Bernie seemed to love. We won't really see the full fruit of what Ross is doing until the 2020 season, which is currently pencilled in for another round of engine changes aimed at getting more manufacturers interested in supplying them.

Chase is also very keen to get races back in countries that have a large fan base but don't currently host one. A Dutch race is very much on the cards in coming years, because lets be honest, the sport should capitalise on how popular Max is.

We already have the French grand prix back next year, and hopefully the mess surrounding the German one (and slightly longer term, Monza and Silverstone) can be sorted now the person doing the negotiations isn't someone who just wants big pay cheques and doesn't care if no-one actually turns up to watch the thing.
 
2017-10-21 03:04:40 PM  
Brazilians are fiercely nationalistic.  And we do decently in sports overall.  Yet other than major international competitions such as the Olympics or World Cup, I don't remember ever seeing our national anthem being played at the beginning of a sporting event.  Sure, if it is an international event they will play the winner's anthem at the end.  But not the Brazilian one at the beginning.

I also don't get all the military displays at the beginning of  sporting events in the US.  What does the armed forces has to do with the Indy 500 for example?  2 out of 3 Indycar drivers aren't even Americans.
 
2017-10-21 03:28:12 PM  

Joe Peanut: Brazilians are fiercely nationalistic.  And we do decently in sports overall.  Yet other than major international competitions such as the Olympics or World Cup, I don't remember ever seeing our national anthem being played at the beginning of a sporting event.  Sure, if it is an international event they will play the winner's anthem at the end.  But not the Brazilian one at the beginning.

I also don't get all the military displays at the beginning of  sporting events in the US.  What does the armed forces has to do with the Indy 500 for example?  2 out of 3 Indycar drivers aren't even Americans.


The Indy 500 runs on Memorial Day in the US.
 
2017-10-21 04:05:00 PM  
Anyone else watching quali live?

Feels super weird to be typing this at 9pm, btw.

/This is live, isn't it? I'm not just watching highlights?
//No, pretty sure FP3 was on live earlier...
///COTA is great.
 
2017-10-21 04:11:49 PM  

Mztlplx: Joe Peanut: Brazilians are fiercely nationalistic.  And we do decently in sports overall.  Yet other than major international competitions such as the Olympics or World Cup, I don't remember ever seeing our national anthem being played at the beginning of a sporting event.  Sure, if it is an international event they will play the winner's anthem at the end.  But not the Brazilian one at the beginning.

I also don't get all the military displays at the beginning of  sporting events in the US.  What does the armed forces has to do with the Indy 500 for example?  2 out of 3 Indycar drivers aren't even Americans.

The Indy 500 runs on Memorial Day in the US.


That's another example of dangerous militarism, imo.

In the UK, we used to have Remembrance Sunday, the Sunday closest to 11/11, and a couple of minutes silence on 11/11 itself, at 1100, to remember the war dead and reflect on it.

Of course it's important for society to look after the veterans who have fought in wars, and they do a job that most people don't want to do.

Personally, I'd rather remember the war dead, however, in the hope that maybe we won't get in to such situations again.

/But jingoistic militarism is infecting the UK, too - pretty sure they've created an Armed Forces Day in the past few years.
//FWIW the hardest thing my bruv did in the Royal Engineers was tuna fishing off Ascension.
///And perhaps some of the sheep on the Falklands.
 
2017-10-21 04:23:41 PM  

iron de havilland: Anyone else watching quali live?

Feels super weird to be typing this at 9pm, btw.


According to the BBC they've moved the qualifying till late afternoon because they were worried no one would stick around for the Justin Timberlake concert that's on at the circuit later on.

And I wish I was making that up.
 
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