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(Washington Post)   Five things to know about the civil war Iraq has scheduled for Monday   ( washingtonpost.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, Iraqi Kurdistan, referendum, upcoming independence referendum, Iraq, Kurdish people, Kurdish nationalism, long-awaited referendum, vote  
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2122 clicks; posted to Politics » on 19 Sep 2017 at 10:50 PM (42 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2017-09-19 05:59:41 PM  
if anyone wants some wider recent reading on the situation of the kurdish people, 'the kurdish question revisited,' edited by gareth stansfield and mohammed shareef, was, i think, published a couple of months ago in the uk (beginning of july, both hardcover and paperback) but last week, september 15, for both in the us. it's a good-sized book for an edited collection of essays - 700 pages, 35 chapters / essays, divided into 'reflections on debates of identity and nation' (10 essays), 'the kurdish question in the ottoman empire and turkey' (8), 'kq and syria' (2), 'kq and Iran' (3), 'kq and Iraq' (12). not every leading scholar currently writing on 'the kurdish question' gets a chapter, but certainly what i would call a good percentage of them do, as well as some who are not so well known. paperback is around $30-40 on amazon (edited collections are often quite expensive, so nice to see it getting a paperback release immediately)
 
2017-09-19 10:21:00 PM  
1) Iraq's going to remain a shiathole no matter the outcome
2) I'm a bad person for having AdBlock software
 
2017-09-19 10:25:26 PM  
Good luck Kurds, don't let anything stand in the whey of your dreams!
 
2017-09-19 10:53:32 PM  
3. The United States has not helped

Call me when the US actually does something useful in that region of the world.
 
2017-09-19 10:56:26 PM  
The Kurds want their own way.

And what the fark is a tuffet?
 
2017-09-19 10:59:31 PM  
Kurdxit doesn't exactly roll off the tongue.
 
2017-09-19 11:05:59 PM  
The Kurds have no friends but the mountains.

I hope the Kurds come out of this okay, but I don't expect anything but the worst for them given who they're surrounded by.
 
2017-09-19 11:11:59 PM  

FatherChaos: 3. The United States has not helped

Call me when the US actually does something useful in that region of the world.


The only instance I can think of was when we kicked Saddam out of Kuwait and then stopped before sticking our dick in a hornet's nest.  One of the best decisions we ever made in that part of the world was to do nothing, and even that had blowback.
 
2017-09-19 11:16:16 PM  
Article fails with only a single, passing mention of Turkey. There are three players in this, and it will be a three-way war. Kurds want their own country, Turkey and Iraq do not. If this passes and the various factions of Kurds organize better and attempt to form a state, the whole region will blow up. Again.

I've always though that calling WW1 the "war to end all wars" was ironic since nearly everything they did at the end directly lead to more wars.
 
2017-09-19 11:20:56 PM  
It's good that we are scheduling them these days.
 
2017-09-19 11:26:22 PM  
Try to imagine Chris Matthews in his most excited voice. About 10 or 12 years ago, he had been questioning daily if Iraq had devolved into a civil war. Finally, he asked it. "WHAT'S IT GOING TO TAKE BEFORE PEOPLE ADMIT IRAQ'S IN A CIVIL WAR? SOMEONE ATTACKING FORT SUMTER????"
 
2017-09-19 11:27:02 PM  
Calling it now, if they vote independence, it will trigger WWIII.
 
2017-09-19 11:31:26 PM  
Still a better love story than Twilight.
 
2017-09-19 11:41:10 PM  

Karac: FatherChaos: 3. The United States has not helped

Call me when the US actually does something useful in that region of the world.

The only instance I can think of was when we kicked Saddam out of Kuwait and then stopped before sticking our dick in a hornet's nest.  One of the best decisions we ever made in that part of the world was to do nothing, and even that had blowback.


Yes, as I recall, that worked out fantastic for the Kurds.
 
2017-09-19 11:49:57 PM  
img.fark.netView Full Size


"We screwed you all, but thanks for blaming it on the black guy."
 
2017-09-20 12:37:31 AM  
Whar State Department whar!
 
2017-09-20 12:39:31 AM  

corteran: Article fails with only a single, passing mention of Turkey. There are three players in this, and it will be a three-way war. Kurds want their own country, Turkey and Iraq do not. If this passes and the various factions of Kurds organize better and attempt to form a state, the whole region will blow up. Again.

I've always though that calling WW1 the "war to end all wars" was ironic since nearly everything they did at the end directly lead to more wars.


There is also Iran (and to a lesser extent Syria).
 
2017-09-20 12:42:13 AM  
6) I don't need it
 
2017-09-20 12:44:28 AM  

TheManofPA: 6) I don't need it


img.fark.netView Full Size


I see what you did there.
 
2017-09-20 03:15:23 AM  
Let's help the Kurds.
I vote for that.
I'd also like to help the Dreamers.
I vote for that.
And let's hang Mitch McConnell by the neck until dead.
I vote for that.
And let's kick Ted Cruz to the curb.
I vote for that.
And let's kick Ted Cruz until blood comes out of his ears and nose.
I vote for that.
I'm done voting for tonight.
Am I a tolerant liberal?
Nope. I'm not.
Why should I tolerate your behavior? I believe I shouldn't.
I'm coming after your church next. And there's more to come.
Sleep tight.
 
2017-09-20 05:05:52 AM  
So, will there still be idiots 150 years from now driving around with the loser's flags on their Toyota pickups?
 
2017-09-20 05:22:33 AM  
Can't read it. I am the bad guy with adblock.
 
2017-09-20 06:19:07 AM  
The Kurds. One of, if not the most moderate group in the region.  Irbil has the only 24-7 liquor store in the Mid East.
If we had any balls, we should have supported their desire for a homeland from the beginning.
But, no.  We didn't want to pissed off Turkey. Who is now turning into an Islamic dictatorship.  Looks like that didn't work out so well for our interests.
 
2017-09-20 07:13:14 AM  

Catlenfell: The Kurds. One of, if not the most moderate group in the region.  Irbil has the only 24-7 liquor store in the Mid East.
If we had any balls, we should have supported their desire for a homeland from the beginning.
But, no.  We didn't want to pissed off Turkey. Who is now turning into an Islamic dictatorship.  Looks like that didn't work out so well for our interests.


Is that really the reason? Turkey? I will admit to not being very knowledgeable about the Kurds, but they seem to be stable and good at fighting ISIS. Couldn't we support their bid for independence and show the citizens of the area that American will support a stable country that despises ISIS?
 
2017-09-20 07:14:35 AM  

Karac: FatherChaos: 3. The United States has not helped

Call me when the US actually does something useful in that region of the world.

The only instance I can think of was when we kicked Saddam out of Kuwait and then stopped before sticking our dick in a hornet's nest.  One of the best decisions we ever made in that part of the world was to do nothing, and even that had blowback.


I often wonder what the alternative reality is like now where we then toppled Saddam and used the international goodwill available to us from Desert Storm to "liberate" Iraq.  Not to argue for more war but what if we were better off?  Honestly, I was surprised we didn't in a pessimistic sort of way
 
2017-09-20 07:29:42 AM  

RollingArmadillo: Catlenfell: The Kurds. One of, if not the most moderate group in the region.  Irbil has the only 24-7 liquor store in the Mid East.
If we had any balls, we should have supported their desire for a homeland from the beginning.
But, no.  We didn't want to pissed off Turkey. Who is now turning into an Islamic dictatorship.  Looks like that didn't work out so well for our interests.

Is that really the reason? Turkey? I will admit to not being very knowledgeable about the Kurds, but they seem to be stable and good at fighting ISIS. Couldn't we support their bid for independence and show the citizens of the area that American will support a stable country that despises ISIS?


Sure.  Until the neighboring Kurds in Turkey decide to seceed, which they have threatened to do in the interest of an independent Kurdistan.  Turkey has expressly stated that they will not allow this.  And that's been our problem; supporting an independent Kurdistan puts us directly at odds with Turkey.
 
2017-09-20 07:36:19 AM  
born_yesterday:
Sure.  Until the neighboring Kurds in Turkey decide to seceed, which they have threatened to do in the interest of an independent Kurdistan.  Turkey has expressly stated that they will not allow this.  And that's been our problem; supporting an independent Kurdistan puts us directly at odds with Turkey.

I wonder if there is anything Turkey would want that the US or International Community could give them to allow an independent Kurdistan. If Turkey is unwilling to budge or is openly hostile to an independent Kurdistan that is not good.
 
2017-09-20 07:49:21 AM  

RollingArmadillo: born_yesterday:
Sure.  Until the neighboring Kurds in Turkey decide to seceed, which they have threatened to do in the interest of an independent Kurdistan.  Turkey has expressly stated that they will not allow this.  And that's been our problem; supporting an independent Kurdistan puts us directly at odds with Turkey.

I wonder if there is anything Turkey would want that the US or International Community could give them to allow an independent Kurdistan. If Turkey is unwilling to budge or is openly hostile to an independent Kurdistan that is not good.


They were hot for EU membership under their previous government; the current regime was not as enthusiastic for EU membership as they were for purging, and the talks have ended.
 
2017-09-20 07:54:16 AM  

GoodHomer: The Kurds have no friends but the mountains.

I hope the Kurds come out of this okay, but I don't expect anything but the worst for them given who they're surrounded by.


Well, the mountains, and Israel, and that's... enough.  The Turkish army has armor and air power but neither help much fighting small bands of Guerillas in the mountains. Especially not while facing huge international pressure for invading Iraq or Syria, and supply lines that long.


Joe Biden was right all along.  Iraw...and likely Syria now, need to break up into smaller countries
 
2017-09-20 07:55:07 AM  
Well fark. I hope the Kurds can get their independence without bloodshed.
 
2017-09-20 08:36:22 AM  

born_yesterday: RollingArmadillo: Catlenfell: The Kurds. One of, if not the most moderate group in the region.  Irbil has the only 24-7 liquor store in the Mid East.
If we had any balls, we should have supported their desire for a homeland from the beginning.
But, no.  We didn't want to pissed off Turkey. Who is now turning into an Islamic dictatorship.  Looks like that didn't work out so well for our interests.

Is that really the reason? Turkey? I will admit to not being very knowledgeable about the Kurds, but they seem to be stable and good at fighting ISIS. Couldn't we support their bid for independence and show the citizens of the area that American will support a stable country that despises ISIS?

Sure.  Until the neighboring Kurds in Turkey decide to seceed, which they have threatened to do in the interest of an independent Kurdistan.  Turkey has expressly stated that they will not allow this.  And that's been our problem; supporting an independent Kurdistan puts us directly at odds with Turkey.


The Turks have been supportive of Iraqi Kurdistan, since they sell them cheap oil and have been supportive of the Turkish government, even tacitly allowing (while officially disapproving) the Turks to bomb Turkish Kurd rebels that fled across the Iraqi Kurdistan border. However, the Turks are afraid of the example it sets for the Turkish Kurds, hence their public face on the issue.
 
2017-09-20 10:44:43 AM  

Ocean_Pimp: the kurds are the only people who stood up and took their shiat and said fark off to terrorists


Except when they're busy commiting terrorism themselves.

I agree that they should get their own country if they want it, as should any ethnic group with a cohesive territory of a size to be functional. if your expecting it to be a nice place with a sensible government though, you're deluding yourself.
 
2017-09-20 11:03:33 AM  

FatherChaos: 3. The United States has not helped

Call me when the US actually does something useful in that region of the world.


The Kuwaities and the Israelites would counter your argument! As would the Jordanians, the Egyptians, and the Morrocans.

PS: Remember when we didn't declare war on those shiatite stains in Iran for attacking our embassy?

PSS: Remember when we didn't blow up Lebanon when they murdered all those Marines in Beirut? Fun times...
 
2017-09-20 11:30:58 AM  

born_yesterday: Karac: FatherChaos: 3. The United States has not helped

Call me when the US actually does something useful in that region of the world.

The only instance I can think of was when we kicked Saddam out of Kuwait and then stopped before sticking our dick in a hornet's nest.  One of the best decisions we ever made in that part of the world was to do nothing, and even that had blowback.

Yes, as I recall, that worked out fantastic for the Kurds.


Like I said, even that had blowback.  Althought I was primarily thinking about how it led to bin Laden have a hate-on for the US.

But even then, you'd be hard pressed to find an example of an American action in the Middle East with a more positive outcome overall.
 
2017-09-20 04:19:29 PM  

RollingArmadillo: Catlenfell: The Kurds. One of, if not the most moderate group in the region.  Irbil has the only 24-7 liquor store in the Mid East.
If we had any balls, we should have supported their desire for a homeland from the beginning.
But, no.  We didn't want to pissed off Turkey. Who is now turning into an Islamic dictatorship.  Looks like that didn't work out so well for our interests.

Is that really the reason? Turkey? I will admit to not being very knowledgeable about the Kurds, but they seem to be stable and good at fighting ISIS. Couldn't we support their bid for independence and show the citizens of the area that American will support a stable country that despises ISIS?


Neither Turkey nor Iran can tolerate the existence of an independent Kurdistan. We obviously care more about Turkey in this case, but both countries contain between them the lion's share of where Kurds actually live. Look on  map of northern Iraq, draw a line including part of northern Syria (where the Kurds control what they took from ISIS, much to Turkey's displeasure, over through Kirkuk into Iran, then expand a box up to the Armenian border and you start to get an idea of why the Iranians and the Turks are nervous.

Sure, Iraq is opposed to losing their northern oil-producing region, but they can't really do much. Turkey on the other hand will swiftly invade and without the US there to keep them from having complete air superiority they will just bomb the new Kurdistan into paste. Iran probably won't directly invade, but will send Shia militias and other associated militants they control as proxies. This would be a tough situation (and always has been) for the US even if we didn't have the most retarded administration and State Dept. in US history to deal with it. There is no doubt that in all possible ways the Kurds deserve and historically should have their own state. They are going to get farked again, regardless of that fact.
 
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