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(War is Boring)   The USAF's proud history of "acquiring" and test flying Russian airplanes   ( warisboring.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, United States Air Force, Air Force, Fighter aircraft, U.S. Air Force, Foreign Technology Division, F-86 Sabre, U.S. Army, F-4 Phantom IIs  
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2254 clicks; posted to Geek » on 14 Sep 2017 at 10:35 AM (36 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2017-09-14 08:26:54 AM  
Back in the 70s, I asked my cousin what he was flying.
KC-130s. F15s. Migs. he said.
I didn't ask any more questions.
I had a secret clearance and his was higher.
 
2017-09-14 09:19:30 AM  
Why is acquiring in quotes?
 
2017-09-14 09:20:15 AM  
How much money did this save us on the latest cost plus contract again?

Nothing, you say?
 
2017-09-14 09:20:42 AM  

vudukungfu: I had a secret clearance and his was higher.


You mean more compartmentalized.
 
2017-09-14 09:45:00 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: vudukungfu: I had a secret clearance and his was higher.

You mean more compartmentalized.


Could be higher.  vudukungfu could have had just a confidential or secret clearance, and his cousin top secret.

And of course, something like that would be compartmentalized, which would limit the ability for others to see.  It was kind of funny, I held a top secret security clearance.  When I and my buddies got a personal tour of the USS Olympia  (SSN-717) through a work connection (a Morse intercept operator we worked with was married to a sonar tech on the Olympia), they had to put covers on the secret stuff, even though we were cleared for a level higher than required, we wasn't cleared for that particular compartmentalized stuff.  Which gave us a chuckle, but we understood.
 
2017-09-14 09:46:18 AM  
1125996089.rsc.cdn77.orgView Full Size
 
2017-09-14 09:57:02 AM  

Voiceofreason01: Why is acquiring in quotes?


Because steal sounds bad?

When I was part of building a new squadron, I acquired many things we needed, but couldn't order yet due to bureaucratic delays, but the Mission must happen, so items were "acquired."
 
2017-09-14 09:59:22 AM  
img.fark.netView Full Size
Approve
 
2017-09-14 10:10:45 AM  
The Israelis got the MIG-21 and gave it to the US, the first one the US got its hands on. Many years later the Israelis asked for it back to put as a museum piece, the US sent them a MIG-21 and the Israelis ran the numbers and realized it was the wrong one so they sent it back. The US sent them a second one and again the Israelis ran the numbers and this one too was not the Iraqi MIG the Israelis had sent to the US. The Israelis gave up on trying to get that MIG back
 
2017-09-14 10:19:07 AM  

Im_Gumby: [1125996089.rsc.cdn77.org image 608x256]


They're pretty easy to fly if you learn to think Russian... and then say every thought out loud.
 
2017-09-14 10:24:31 AM  
North Korean pilot No Kum-sok
 
2017-09-14 10:25:34 AM  

Ithaca_StLondon: Voiceofreason01: Why is acquiring in quotes?

Because steal sounds bad?


"Look, enemy's plane!"
"Don't steal it"
 
2017-09-14 10:33:06 AM  
So all those countries that sold us Russian planes in exchange for ours... how long before they sold ours back to the Ruskies?
 
2017-09-14 10:39:39 AM  

Im_Gumby: [1125996089.rsc.cdn77.org image 608x256]


Came for Major Gant, leaving happy.
 
2017-09-14 10:48:12 AM  
No mention of Viktor Belenko?  But we gave his MiG-25 back, so I guess he wouldn't count.
 
2017-09-14 10:49:51 AM  

kbronsito: So all those countries that sold us Russian planes in exchange for ours... how long before they sold ours back to the Ruskies?


Pakistan and Venezuela both let Russia play with F-16s, of course those were down tuned export models
 
2017-09-14 11:26:02 AM  
Air Force Materiel Command

You'd think a web site dedicated to warfare would get it right.
 
2017-09-14 11:40:26 AM  
Russia has their own history of acquiring and flying US-made aircraft. The TU-4 bomber was a hacky, reverse-engineered copy of the B-29 bomber. The Soviets didn't have the same manufacturing ability as the US, so a lot of odd pieces were modified or substituted, leading to a plane where things tended not to work right.
 
2017-09-14 11:40:41 AM  
Someone needs to post the Chuck Yeager MIG story. I can't find it
 
2017-09-14 11:44:04 AM  

zedster: The Israelis got the MIG-21 and gave it to the US, the first one the US got its hands on. Many years later the Israelis asked for it back to put as a museum piece, the US sent them a MIG-21 and the Israelis ran the numbers and realized it was the wrong one so they sent it back. The US sent them a second one and again the Israelis ran the numbers and this one too was not the Iraqi MIG the Israelis had sent to the US. The Israelis gave up on trying to get that MIG back


I guess we didn't have the cheek to send them a hundred crates containing the proper parts and a foot 30-cm-thick binder of the teardown notes with a note on the cover saying, "Assembly is the reverse of disassembly."

/ FISHBËD
 
2017-09-14 11:51:18 AM  

SuperChuck: Someone needs to post the Chuck Yeager MIG story. I can't find it


so the SR-71 was flying over LAX when a Cessna asked for a speed check...


///there are other aviation stories?
 
2017-09-14 11:55:28 AM  

facepalm.jpg: Russia has their own history of acquiring and flying US-made aircraft. The TU-4 bomber was a hacky, reverse-engineered copy of the B-29 bomber. The Soviets didn't have the same manufacturing ability as the US, so a lot of odd pieces were modified or substituted, leading to a plane where things tended not to work right.


According to TV Tropes, Stalin ordered Tupolev to make an exact copy, so rather than risk a trip to Siberia, he tooled up for SAE instead of metric, which I can only imagine the headaches that must have caused.
 
2017-09-14 12:17:44 PM  

Victoly: facepalm.jpg: Russia has their own history of acquiring and flying US-made aircraft. The TU-4 bomber was a hacky, reverse-engineered copy of the B-29 bomber. The Soviets didn't have the same manufacturing ability as the US, so a lot of odd pieces were modified or substituted, leading to a plane where things tended not to work right.

According to TV Tropes, Stalin ordered Tupolev to make an exact copy, so rather than risk a trip to Siberia, he tooled up for SAE instead of metric, which I can only imagine the headaches that must have caused.


TVTropes is half-right.

The Tu-4 prototype was a near-perfect copy and built essentially by hand. The production models were metricized and stuff didn't quite fit. Further complicating things was the problem that the Soviets reverse-engineered from four different aircraft which comprised three different versions of the B-29 from two different factories, and one was essentially wreckage.

Still, they managed to work out the kinks and China was flying further reverse-engineered versions into the early '90s.
 
2017-09-14 12:20:36 PM  
That first x-301 prototype was a biatch ...
 
2017-09-14 12:23:21 PM  

DjangoStonereaver: No mention of Viktor Belenko?  But we gave his MiG-25 back, so I guess he wouldn't count.


Completely disassembled, in crates.
 
2017-09-14 12:24:35 PM  

facepalm.jpg: Russia has their own history of acquiring and flying US-made aircraft. The TU-4 bomber was a hacky, reverse-engineered copy of the B-29 bomber. The Soviets didn't have the same manufacturing ability as the US, so a lot of odd pieces were modified or substituted, leading to a plane where things tended not to work right.


But at least they kept the word 'BOEING' stamped into the rudder pedals.  Or so I heard.
 
2017-09-14 12:24:43 PM  

zedster: The Israelis got the MIG-21 and gave it to the US, the first one the US got its hands on. Many years later the Israelis asked for it back to put as a museum piece, the US sent them a MIG-21 and the Israelis ran the numbers and realized it was the wrong one so they sent it back. The US sent them a second one and again the Israelis ran the numbers and this one too was not the Iraqi MIG the Israelis had sent to the US. The Israelis gave up on trying to get that MIG back


....IIRC that MiG is at the USAF Museum in Ohio.

   And Google Earth Nellis AFB, NV - The old Threat Museum (AKA The Petting Zoo) is still there and now has a couple of MiGs out front.  The really good stuff was inside and undercover.

/Got to sit in a few toys that officially didn't exist
 
2017-09-14 12:40:17 PM  

zedster: SuperChuck: Someone needs to post the Chuck Yeager MIG story. I can't find it

so the SR-71 was flying over LAX when a Cessna asked for a speed check...


///there are other aviation stories?


I meant the one where he meets the Russian pilot and tells him how hard it is to get a MIG out of a spin. The Russian pilot says "you got out of a spin? nobody has ever done that"
 
2017-09-14 01:11:50 PM  
When I was 6, in 1983, my dad moved the family out to this little nowhere desert town called Sunnymead way east of Riverside, CA. He had just retired from the Navy and had been picked up by McDonnell-Douglas for a project on a then-new aircraft that hadn't been revealed. The fire control testing was being done out of March Air Force Base and some other systemic testing. It was the B-1B. I mention this because I can clearly remember sitting out in the desert on the hood of his car and watching it fly across the landscape being "chased" by two aircraft that I couldn't identify. I had F-4 models and F-14 models in my room and I knew about the F-16 but the two aircraft were neither. They were MIGs my dad told me much, much later in life. One was definitely a 25 and I believe the other was a 21.
 
2017-09-14 01:13:33 PM  

Cry Hentai And Release The Tentacles of War!: Victoly: facepalm.jpg: Russia has their own history of acquiring and flying US-made aircraft. The TU-4 bomber was a hacky, reverse-engineered copy of the B-29 bomber. The Soviets didn't have the same manufacturing ability as the US, so a lot of odd pieces were modified or substituted, leading to a plane where things tended not to work right.

According to TV Tropes, Stalin ordered Tupolev to make an exact copy, so rather than risk a trip to Siberia, he tooled up for SAE instead of metric, which I can only imagine the headaches that must have caused.

TVTropes is half-right.

The Tu-4 prototype was a near-perfect copy and built essentially by hand. The production models were metricized and stuff didn't quite fit. Further complicating things was the problem that the Soviets reverse-engineered from four different aircraft which comprised three different versions of the B-29 from two different factories, and one was essentially wreckage.

Still, they managed to work out the kinks and China was flying further reverse-engineered versions into the early '90s.


They looked stupid, too, because they removed the radial engines and mounted turboprop engines, which is actually fine, but they didn't modify the fairings on the wings to be smaller, so you had this funky looking contraption:

upload.wikimedia.orgView Full Size
 
2017-09-14 01:30:25 PM  
This is a good video of Area 51

The Truth Behind The Area 51 Lore - Documentary
Youtube JWmZZTvcQL0


FYI, the "alien" spacecraft were full-size "dummy" ships, due to the fact that aircraft sitting on the tarmac cause the spots their shadows left to be cooler than the surrounding area, so when they had to hustle them inside whenever an Soviet ashcan orbited overhead, the Russians could pick out the thermal outline the craft left.  So some practical jokers decided to create a bunch of strange shapes to mess with the Russians.  Like "flying saucers".
 
2017-09-14 01:48:40 PM  

Im_Gumby: [1125996089.rsc.cdn77.org image 608x256]


Came for this. Leaving happy and full of Pyro's Pizza.
 
2017-09-14 01:51:10 PM  
Another good one.

National Geographic Area 51 The CIAs Secret Files Documentary HD
Youtube ACZv1zdHAAA

Spy planes. testbeds, captured Soviet spacecraft, but no alien craft.
 
2017-09-14 02:38:01 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: vudukungfu: I had a secret clearance and his was higher.

You mean more compartmentalized.


And he didn't have a need to know.
 
2017-09-14 02:45:25 PM  

vudukungfu: Back in the 70s, I asked my cousin what he was flying.
KC-130s. F15s. Migs. he said.
I didn't ask any more questions.
I had a secret clearance and his was higher.


That's quite a skill set. Although I didn't think fighter pilots deigned to fly tankers or cargo planes.
 
2017-09-14 02:57:58 PM  

Kuta: Air Force Materiel Command

You'd think a web site dedicated to warfare would get it right.


If you mean the spelling of Materiel, it is spelled correctly.  Military material and equipment
 
2017-09-14 03:04:28 PM  

Hospitaller: Kuta: Air Force Materiel Command

You'd think a web site dedicated to warfare would get it right.

If you mean the spelling of Materiel, it is spelled correctly.  Military material and equipment


img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2017-09-14 03:07:11 PM  
You know who else used to test the enemy's planes by flying them?
img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2017-09-14 03:11:40 PM  

Danger Mouse: Marcus Aurelius: vudukungfu: I had a secret clearance and his was higher.

You mean more compartmentalized.

And he didn't have a need to know.


OH, man, I was out in the desert for years.
I could tell you some real cool stories.
Like the time. .. .hang on .
Someone's at the door.
 
2017-09-14 04:00:23 PM  
Testing enemy equipment captured or otherwise acquired goes back to nearly the dawn of warfare.
 
2017-09-14 04:33:06 PM  

Raoul Eaton: You know who else used to test the enemy's planes by flying them?
[img.fark.net image 597x315]


Funny thing is, and what TFA doesn't mention, is the role Germany has played in the evaluation of Soviet Equipment.

At the time of German reunification, the East German Air Force just had a delivery of a bunch of brand new MiG-29 fighters. Naturally, other NATO allies (including the US) evaluated them in many European exercises, until the Germans sold them off to Poland in 2004. Basically, we know everything there is to know about early MiG-29 models thanks to the Luftwaffe.

upload.wikimedia.orgView Full Size

A MiG-29 in Luftwaffe grey, note the Iron Cross markers.
 
2017-09-14 06:30:14 PM  

Victoly: facepalm.jpg: Russia has their own history of acquiring and flying US-made aircraft. The TU-4 bomber was a hacky, reverse-engineered copy of the B-29 bomber. The Soviets didn't have the same manufacturing ability as the US, so a lot of odd pieces were modified or substituted, leading to a plane where things tended not to work right.

According to TV Tropes, Stalin ordered Tupolev to make an exact copy, so rather than risk a trip to Siberia, he tooled up for SAE instead of metric, which I can only imagine the headaches that must have caused.


The story is that the prototype copy (the *exact* copy) replicated the random welds and patches the aircraft had from repairing battle damage.
 
2017-09-14 07:20:25 PM  
We're not talking about some stray pilot with a MiG here, it's several billion dollars of Soviet state property, they're going to want it back!

/Yeah not really relevant
 
2017-09-14 07:46:38 PM  
FTA:" Requirements for the realistic simulation of enemy air forces have expanded to the degree where the U.S. Navy, Air Force and Marines are not only flying U.S.-made aircraft for so called "dissimilar air combat training,"

Also because simulating dog fights with two airplanes of exactly the same model leads to pilots pushing the aircraft past their capabilities (either the plane or the pilot) while trying to get the upper hand and sometimes losing control.

I think it got discussed some in Riding Rockets by Mike Mullane (good read if you haven't). NASA would let pilot qualified astronauts mess around with the F-5s and they crashed some play dogfighting, which lead to a ban on the practice.
 
2017-09-14 10:21:04 PM  

zedster: The Israelis got the MIG-21 and gave it to the US, the first one the US got its hands on. Many years later the Israelis asked for it back to put as a museum piece, the US sent them a MIG-21 and the Israelis ran the numbers and realized it was the wrong one so they sent it back. The US sent them a second one and again the Israelis ran the numbers and this one too was not the Iraqi MIG the Israelis had sent to the US. The Israelis gave up on trying to get that MIG back


Indian givers!
 
2017-09-14 11:41:56 PM  
Is it me or does this Mi-25 look like Sarah Huckabee Sanders?

img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2017-09-15 02:32:21 AM  
Have donut, will travel. Does bug me though MiG, Tu, An, Su, Ka, Yak, Il, Mi, Be then a dash then the number. All caps just ain't cricket.

You don't do training on the things, just strip it for data in a test engineering environment. Then you pick your closest equivalent aircraft and train an aggressor squadron to fly in the manner of the other plane (even if your equipment is more capable). What was found by in-squadron mock combat is the parity of design was enforcing the wrong mindset of not exploiting the differences in equipment. Even as simple as pairing dissimilar own nation equipment would get the pilots in the mindset of recognizing differences and thinking about exploiting them.

Amusingly an AIM-9B stuck in something Soviet which allowed them to create the R-3 line of missiles.
 
2017-09-15 07:16:32 AM  

Hospitaller: Hospitaller: Kuta: Air Force Materiel Command

You'd think a web site dedicated to warfare would get it right.

If you mean the spelling of Materiel, it is spelled correctly.  Military material and equipment

[img.fark.net image 236x252]


img.fark.netView Full Size

img.fark.netView Full Size

img.fark.netView Full Size
 
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