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9265 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Sep 2017 at 8:20 AM (44 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2017-09-14 10:01:06 AM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: No, but used to live there and I like that shorthand.  I also use "newcomer" instead of "immigrant".  It's just nicer.


It's not nicer, it's dishonest. Don't let them make "immigrant" a dirty word because it's not. Many immigrants I know have been here way longer than I've been alive -- I'm the relative newcomer in that situatuon.
 
2017-09-14 10:03:06 AM  
Donut goes where?
 
2017-09-14 10:04:13 AM  

Lady J: I think a good rule of thumb for a young person would be, if the other person isn't doing any of the running , isn't making any of the moves ... you need to check they're up for it.


I think we should stop stressing consent, much of the discussion of which is based on an intensely sexist notion that women can never be actively sexual and can only ever be coaxed into sex by a man. Instead we should stress pleasure to young people - if you are not giving the other person pleasure you should stop doing what you're doing and if you don't know whether you're giving the other person pleasure you should ask. If they're enjoying it, consent is there and if they are not enjoying it consent, however coaxed, coerced or wheedled, is worthless.

But hey, can you imagine how the Daily Mail would react if we told young people that sex is supposed to be fun for everybody involved?
 
2017-09-14 10:06:34 AM  
"It took me a minute to actually get that the donut was supposed to be part of the sentence, but even after the pun clicked, I just have so many more questions about the brainstorming process behind this," wrote one commenter.

In what way is "O Go further without consent" better than "Go further without consent"?
 
2017-09-14 10:08:28 AM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: I also use "newcomer" instead of "immigrant". It's just nicer.


It's not nice. It's patronising and arrogant to suggest that immigrants are "new", with the connotations of uneducated, ill-informed and inexperienced. I have a relative who came to this country in 1961 - would you call him a "newcomer"?
 
2017-09-14 10:09:26 AM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: theflatline: Benevolent Misanthrope: yoyopro: Benevolent Misanthrope:
We had a thread about this recently - how rapists don't know they're rapists and the whole idea of consent being difficult for many men to get their brains around.  This makes me think guys feel like consent for sex is a joke - something you do because she might falsely accuse you of rape later, but everybody knows it's just another PC-stupid thing.

I understand you.  Speaking as a male, sometimes I am ashamed to be one of them.  But take heart, we're not all like that.
Speaking as a white male, sometimes I feel compelled to say the same thing to my black friends.

Yeah - I know what you mean. As a white woman, my experience is vastly different from other ethnic groups. And even though I'm gay, that's not obvious. It's not the same as being part of a visible minority. I often want to say to my black and Latino friends, "Yes,  I get it that I enjoy privilege. Please don't think I'm like those turds in Charlottesville."

Are you Canadian?

"Visible minority".

No, but used to live there and I like that shorthand.  I also use "newcomer" instead of "immigrant".  It's just nicer.


It's only nicer if you'er a xenophobe.
 
2017-09-14 10:10:06 AM  

orbister: Benevolent Misanthrope: As a white woman, my experience is vastly different from other ethnic groups.

Who are you to speak about the experiences of other ethnic groups? Check your privilege.


I'm growing to hate that phrase.
 
2017-09-14 10:14:02 AM  

orbister: "It took me a minute to actually get that the donut was supposed to be part of the sentence, but even after the pun clicked, I just have so many more questions about the brainstorming process behind this," wrote one commenter.

In what way is "O Go further without consent" better than "Go further without consent"?


matthew903.files.wordpress.comView Full Size
 
2017-09-14 10:15:36 AM  
I'd have a donut shop just to come up with the wacky names
Annie Sprinkles
Glazed & Confused
Round Midnight (dark chocolate)
Eh, Claire (Canadian Maple )
etc
 
2017-09-14 10:17:09 AM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: theflatline: Benevolent Misanthrope: yoyopro: Benevolent Misanthrope:
We had a thread about this recently - how rapists don't know they're rapists and the whole idea of consent being difficult for many men to get their brains around.  This makes me think guys feel like consent for sex is a joke - something you do because she might falsely accuse you of rape later, but everybody knows it's just another PC-stupid thing.

I understand you.  Speaking as a male, sometimes I am ashamed to be one of them.  But take heart, we're not all like that.
Speaking as a white male, sometimes I feel compelled to say the same thing to my black friends.

Yeah - I know what you mean. As a white woman, my experience is vastly different from other ethnic groups. And even though I'm gay, that's not obvious. It's not the same as being part of a visible minority. I often want to say to my black and Latino friends, "Yes,  I get it that I enjoy privilege. Please don't think I'm like those turds in Charlottesville."

Are you Canadian?

"Visible minority".

No, but used to live there and I like that shorthand.  I also use "newcomer" instead of "immigrant".  It's just nicer.


People is what I see.  I never knew I was a visible minority until I went to Canada.  I found it quite insulting.  I have spent my life between the south and South America, only place my browness was of any contention was the NE of the US and Canada.
 
2017-09-14 10:18:56 AM  
These days the packaging should just furnish a contract for both parties to sign, and don't forget space for the notary stamp.
 
2017-09-14 10:19:05 AM  
Nothing gets a woman more wet than having her sign a contract consenting to the act.

I think the cues for consent and desire are subtle but easily read if you know what to look for. I guess that doesn't apply to certain people who are socially awkward. This whole thing is overboard because no man rapes someone "accidentally".
 
2017-09-14 10:23:49 AM  

Lady J: orbister: Benevolent Misanthrope: As a white woman, my experience is vastly different from other ethnic groups.

Who are you to speak about the experiences of other ethnic groups? Check your privilege.

I'm growing to hate that phrase.


Me too.
 
2017-09-14 10:28:52 AM  

Lady J: orbister: Benevolent Misanthrope: As a white woman, my experience is vastly different from other ethnic groups.

Who are you to speak about the experiences of other ethnic groups? Check your privilege.

I'm growing to hate that phrase.


the word "problematic" has also been ruined by overuse.
 
2017-09-14 10:29:26 AM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: And they sold the fark out of them, too.

We had a thread about this recently - how rapists don't know they're rapists and the whole idea of consent being difficult for many men to get their brains around.  This makes me think guys feel like consent for sex is a joke - something you do because she might falsely accuse you of rape later, but everybody knows it's just another PC-stupid thing.


Honestly? There are some rapists who don't know, but most of them know. They know well and they do it over and over. I think Bill Cosby knew he was a rapist. I think so did Polanski. I think they just don't care and think they'll get away with it just like they did however many times before.
 
2017-09-14 10:36:36 AM  

orbister: IDisposable: it's also "not saying anything means no".

That's a very dubious notion. Are you really claiming that consent is withdrawn if either party stops talking during sex?


Obviously not.

If she explicitly says yes and then never revokes that consent, then presumably she is still consenting.

If she never explicitly says yes to begin with, then that's obviously different.
 
2017-09-14 10:38:22 AM  

cwheelie: I'd have a donut shop just to come up with the wacky names
Annie Sprinkles
Glazed & Confused
Round Midnight (dark chocolate)
Eh, Claire (Canadian Maple )
etc


Donut Disturb
I can't believe I ate the hole thing
 
2017-09-14 10:39:59 AM  

peterquince: Smoking GNU: Benevolent Misanthrope: And they sold the fark out of them, too.

We had a thread about this recently - how rapists don't know they're rapists and the whole idea of consent being difficult for many men to get their brains around.  This makes me think guys feel like consent for sex is a joke - something you do because she might falsely accuse you of rape later, but everybody knows it's just another PC-stupid thing.

As a male, i find ''No means no'' to be pretty self-explanatory.

The challenge is convincing some guys (not directed at you, because you're clearly a supporter) that "no means no" isn't enough - but that "yes means yes".


Been married a long time now...so I've been out of the dating scene for a long time, which means this really isn't my subject or concern...but are times such that you REALLY have to stop what you  are doing, and ask your female partner (who is going along gleefully with everything so far, who has said not a word of protest) "Are you REALLY sure you want to have sex now?"  "Really, really sure?" "I'm not pressuring you into anything?"   That seems really bizarre to me.  Again, not my scene anymore, but has it really gotten that bad with predatory men, and women who can't (I know that is a loaded word) stand up for themselves and just say "No."?
 
2017-09-14 10:44:58 AM  

DontMakeMeComeBackThere: peterquince: Smoking GNU: Benevolent Misanthrope: And they sold the fark out of them, too.

We had a thread about this recently - how rapists don't know they're rapists and the whole idea of consent being difficult for many men to get their brains around.  This makes me think guys feel like consent for sex is a joke - something you do because she might falsely accuse you of rape later, but everybody knows it's just another PC-stupid thing.

As a male, i find ''No means no'' to be pretty self-explanatory.

The challenge is convincing some guys (not directed at you, because you're clearly a supporter) that "no means no" isn't enough - but that "yes means yes".

Been married a long time now...so I've been out of the dating scene for a long time, which means this really isn't my subject or concern...but are times such that you REALLY have to stop what you  are doing, and ask your female partner (who is going along gleefully with everything so far, who has said not a word of protest) "Are you REALLY sure you want to have sex now?"  "Really, really sure?" "I'm not pressuring you into anything?"   That seems really bizarre to me.  Again, not my scene anymore, but has it really gotten that bad with predatory men, and women who can't (I know that is a loaded word) stand up for themselves and just say "No."?


How do you distinguish, when you're on trial for rape, whether she was "going along gleefully with everything" or "just letting him do it because he was big and strong and I just wanted it to be over with"?

Because if she decides the next morning that it was a mistake, her friends might convince her that answer B is what happened.

Honestly, I have never had sex with anyone outside of a relationship, and I'm married now, so I have never played any of these games with getting lengthy crazy amounts of consent.  But I can certainly understand why it's an issue.  I don't claim that false accusations of rape are a majority or even very common, but there have been some high profile cases of false accusations and that's got to have a chilling effect.
 
2017-09-14 10:44:59 AM  

adamatari: Honestly? There are some rapists who don't know, but most of them know. They know well and they do it over and over. I think Bill Cosby knew he was a rapist. I think so did Polanski. I think they just don't care and think they'll get away with it just like they did however many times before.


I do believe you're at least partially right, at least in cases where the perpetrator is an "elite". But there are also cases where the rapist is of the more common "garden variety". I think they might be confused by conflicting messages. "Grab her by the pu$$y" is a generally agreed-upon vile and disgusting expression of that mentality, but what if she's clearly a "one-percenter" and we strongly suspect that's where her money is? Does she still retain her right to privacy of her person and belongings if enough of us sell our votes to a politician who promises us to strip her of them?
 
2017-09-14 10:48:25 AM  

HAMMERTOE: adamatari: Honestly? There are some rapists who don't know, but most of them know. They know well and they do it over and over. I think Bill Cosby knew he was a rapist. I think so did Polanski. I think they just don't care and think they'll get away with it just like they did however many times before.

I do believe you're at least partially right, at least in cases where the perpetrator is an "elite". But there are also cases where the rapist is of the more common "garden variety". I think they might be confused by conflicting messages. "Grab her by the pu$$y" is a generally agreed-upon vile and disgusting expression of that mentality, but what if she's clearly a "one-percenter" and we strongly suspect that's where her money is? Does she still retain her right to privacy of her person and belongings if enough of us sell our votes to a politician who promises us to strip her of them?


I have read the last three lines five times and have no idea what you are saying.

The women Donald Trump allegedly abused were not one-percenters, it's not okay to rape rich women, and every person - man or woman - has a right to their person and belongings.
 
2017-09-14 10:54:34 AM  

HAMMERTOE: adamatari: Honestly? There are some rapists who don't know, but most of them know. They know well and they do it over and over. I think Bill Cosby knew he was a rapist. I think so did Polanski. I think they just don't care and think they'll get away with it just like they did however many times before.

I do believe you're at least partially right, at least in cases where the perpetrator is an "elite". But there are also cases where the rapist is of the more common "garden variety". I think they might be confused by conflicting messages. "Grab her by the pu$$y" is a generally agreed-upon vile and disgusting expression of that mentality, but what if she's clearly a "one-percenter" and we strongly suspect that's where her money is? Does she still retain her right to privacy of her person and belongings if enough of us sell our votes to a politician who promises us to strip her of them?


Perhaps my examples were bad. There was an article, when they finally got around to testing rape kits in Detroit or somewhere, they found the DNA pointed to many rapes being committed by a few men. Serial rapists. They usually get away with it, and these are unknown people in inner cities acting in the same way as those celebrities. I'd bet class actually makes little difference - if your MO is to target people who are unlikely to tell, you'll go a long way before you get caught, if ever.
 
2017-09-14 11:13:00 AM  
I saw it immediately.

thumbs.gfycat.comView Full Size
 
2017-09-14 11:18:05 AM  

jjorsett: These days the packaging should just furnish a contract for both parties to sign, and don't forget space for the notary stamp.


You sound like a man who has difficulty communicating with your partners.

/assuming such persons exist
 
2017-09-14 11:19:24 AM  

DontMakeMeComeBackThere: peterquince: Smoking GNU: Benevolent Misanthrope: And they sold the fark out of them, too.

We had a thread about this recently - how rapists don't know they're rapists and the whole idea of consent being difficult for many men to get their brains around.  This makes me think guys feel like consent for sex is a joke - something you do because she might falsely accuse you of rape later, but everybody knows it's just another PC-stupid thing.

As a male, i find ''No means no'' to be pretty self-explanatory.

The challenge is convincing some guys (not directed at you, because you're clearly a supporter) that "no means no" isn't enough - but that "yes means yes".

Been married a long time now...so I've been out of the dating scene for a long time, which means this really isn't my subject or concern...but are times such that you REALLY have to stop what you  are doing, and ask your female partner (who is going along gleefully with everything so far, who has said not a word of protest) "Are you REALLY sure you want to have sex now?" "Really, really sure?" "I'm not pressuring you into anything?"   That seems really bizarre to me.  Again, not my scene anymore, but has it really gotten that bad with predatory men, and women who can't (I know that is a loaded word) stand up for themselves and just say "No."?


No of course not. The vast majority of people have sufficiently developed social skills that it's obvious whether someone wants to or not.

If someone is all over you, kissing you back, taking your clothes off as you take theirs off, etc, then you don't need to check they want to cos it's obvious.

But if someone is not responding at all, just stting there, or lying there, it probably is worth saying 'are you sure you want to do this?' It might be they're very nervous and they want you to take the lead, but they do wanna do it. But it might be that they don't, and they're scared to say no because they think you might be angry or tell everyone they're frigid.

I honestly think this mostly is only an issue with young, inexperienced people, just starting out, or people with low self esteem, who are a bit damaged.
 
2017-09-14 11:21:37 AM  

IDisposable: If she explicitly says yes and then never revokes that consent, then presumably she is still consenting.


Good grief.
 
2017-09-14 11:22:27 AM  

adamatari: HAMMERTOE: adamatari: Honestly? There are some rapists who don't know, but most of them know. They know well and they do it over and over. I think Bill Cosby knew he was a rapist. I think so did Polanski. I think they just don't care and think they'll get away with it just like they did however many times before.

I do believe you're at least partially right, at least in cases where the perpetrator is an "elite". But there are also cases where the rapist is of the more common "garden variety". I think they might be confused by conflicting messages. "Grab her by the pu$$y" is a generally agreed-upon vile and disgusting expression of that mentality, but what if she's clearly a "one-percenter" and we strongly suspect that's where her money is? Does she still retain her right to privacy of her person and belongings if enough of us sell our votes to a politician who promises us to strip her of them?

Perhaps my examples were bad. There was an article, when they finally got around to testing rape kits in Detroit or somewhere, they found the DNA pointed to many rapes being committed by a few men. Serial rapists. They usually get away with it, and these are unknown people in inner cities acting in the same way as those celebrities. I'd bet class actually makes little difference - if your MO is to target people who are unlikely to tell, you'll go a long way before you get caught, if ever.


It's not that a woman is "unlikely to tell". If the rape kit is sitting on the shelf for years until tested, she obviously did  more than just "tell", she did what she was supposed to do and the police and society is what failed her. And it is knowing that most will be accused of giving a false accusation and society and culture blames her that prevents many from even reporting it in the first place. It's also not even that these rapists are all "unkown" either..it's that their victims are oftentimes just not believed.

We have a president who advocates assault on women and police brutality and wants to make this into a fascist totalitarian state. He is the supposed "example" of what this country represents, and it is the face of a rapist. This whole country is farked. And many of us without consent at all.
 
2017-09-14 11:29:40 AM  

hawks9nkh: Nothing gets a woman more wet than having her sign a contract consenting to the act.


That form wasn't about you. It refers to my high school prom date. It was a regulation date that ended in regulation disappointment.

img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2017-09-14 11:32:21 AM  

Lady J: DontMakeMeComeBackThere: peterquince: Smoking GNU: Benevolent Misanthrope: And they sold the fark out of them, too.

We had a thread about this recently - how rapists don't know they're rapists and the whole idea of consent being difficult for many men to get their brains around.  This makes me think guys feel like consent for sex is a joke - something you do because she might falsely accuse you of rape later, but everybody knows it's just another PC-stupid thing.

As a male, i find ''No means no'' to be pretty self-explanatory.

The challenge is convincing some guys (not directed at you, because you're clearly a supporter) that "no means no" isn't enough - but that "yes means yes".

Been married a long time now...so I've been out of the dating scene for a long time, which means this really isn't my subject or concern...but are times such that you REALLY have to stop what you  are doing, and ask your female partner (who is going along gleefully with everything so far, who has said not a word of protest) "Are you REALLY sure you want to have sex now?" "Really, really sure?" "I'm not pressuring you into anything?"   That seems really bizarre to me.  Again, not my scene anymore, but has it really gotten that bad with predatory men, and women who can't (I know that is a loaded word) stand up for themselves and just say "No."?

No of course not. The vast majority of people have sufficiently developed social skills that it's obvious whether someone wants to or not.

If someone is all over you, kissing you back, taking your clothes off as you take theirs off, etc, then you don't need to check they want to cos it's obvious.

But if someone is not responding at all, just stting there, or lying there, it probably is worth saying 'are you sure you want to do this?' It might be they're very nervous and they want you to take the lead, but they do wanna do it. But it might be that they don't, and they're scared to say no because they think you might be angry or tell everyone they're frigid.

I honestly think this mostly is only an issue with young, inexperienced people, just starting out, or people with low self esteem, who are a bit damaged.


There've been evenings where I've been too tired to do much more than just lay there. At time like this I let my partner know that I *am* enjoying myself even if fatigue means I'm half asleep and not expressing much.
 
2017-09-14 11:44:56 AM  
Because Pokemon was already taken.
 
2017-09-14 11:45:06 AM  

Fano: Shadow Blasko: Snarfangel: Ker_Thwap: There's a condom ad for women now.  It's kind of stupid, and slays a giant straw man. "Don't let anyone tell you that women can't buy condoms!"  I thought it was kind of insulting.  Gendered condoms?  Really?


"Women can't buy condoms" said no sane person ever.

Wait.. Were they female condoms... Because that is a thing.

Man I'd love to live in one of those.


Prince Charles?
 
2017-09-14 11:46:23 AM  
I thought all condoms were similar but Durex are way stronger than say Trojans. I can get 30-40 loads with a Durex and only 4-8 with a Trojan.

/I used the condoms for a little steel BB sling shot.
 
2017-09-14 11:52:01 AM  

Smoking GNU: Benevolent Misanthrope: And they sold the fark out of them, too.

We had a thread about this recently - how rapists don't know they're rapists and the whole idea of consent being difficult for many men to get their brains around.  This makes me think guys feel like consent for sex is a joke - something you do because she might falsely accuse you of rape later, but everybody knows it's just another PC-stupid thing.

As a male, i find ''No means no'' to be pretty self-explanatory.


I do too.

NOMEANSNO - The River
Youtube xIU85B3MDTM
 
2017-09-14 11:57:04 AM  

meanmutton: Benevolent Misanthrope: theflatline: Benevolent Misanthrope: yoyopro: Benevolent Misanthrope:
We had a thread about this recently - how rapists don't know they're rapists and the whole idea of consent being difficult for many men to get their brains around.  This makes me think guys feel like consent for sex is a joke - something you do because she might falsely accuse you of rape later, but everybody knows it's just another PC-stupid thing.

I understand you.  Speaking as a male, sometimes I am ashamed to be one of them.  But take heart, we're not all like that.
Speaking as a white male, sometimes I feel compelled to say the same thing to my black friends.

Yeah - I know what you mean. As a white woman, my experience is vastly different from other ethnic groups. And even though I'm gay, that's not obvious. It's not the same as being part of a visible minority. I often want to say to my black and Latino friends, "Yes,  I get it that I enjoy privilege. Please don't think I'm like those turds in Charlottesville."

Are you Canadian?

"Visible minority".

No, but used to live there and I like that shorthand.  I also use "newcomer" instead of "immigrant".  It's just nicer.

It's only nicer if you'er a xenophobe.


How would you suggest we identify people who are not citizens yet? There are times when identifying people who are new to the country is acceptable, you know.
 
2017-09-14 11:59:21 AM  
Tea Consent
Youtube oQbei5JGiT8
 
2017-09-14 12:01:22 PM  

orbister: Benevolent Misanthrope: I also use "newcomer" instead of "immigrant". It's just nicer.

It's not nice. It's patronising and arrogant to suggest that immigrants are "new", with the connotations of uneducated, ill-informed and inexperienced. I have a relative who came to this country in 1961 - would you call him a "newcomer"?


"Newcomer" means just that. You know what I meant.

Damn, now I realize what I loved about where I was in Canada - no what if ism just to be difficult.
 
2017-09-14 12:01:38 PM  

Lady J: orbister: Benevolent Misanthrope: As a white woman, my experience is vastly different from other ethnic groups.

Who are you to speak about the experiences of other ethnic groups? Check your privilege.

I'm growing to hate that phrase.


It's used as a means of just shutting down a conversation. Rather than address any points of a statement, it calls to question the validity of the origin of the challenger as if the origins of the speaker mean something. It discriminates a person's voice or expression based on race, gender, religion, and income, and worse, it assumes that if a person falls into a specific combination of those categories, that anything that person says is invalid.

"You were born x so your opinion doesn't matter."
 
2017-09-14 12:02:01 PM  

bainsguy: So I have to ask the donut for consent before I stick my dick in it?


That's the idea, yes.
 
2017-09-14 12:04:01 PM  

Lady J: But if someone is not responding at all, just stting there, or lying there, it probably is worth saying 'are you sure you want to do this?


That is a COMPLETE waste of time down at the morgue, let me tell you...
 
2017-09-14 12:18:35 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: orbister: Benevolent Misanthrope: I also use "newcomer" instead of "immigrant". It's just nicer.

It's not nice. It's patronising and arrogant to suggest that immigrants are "new", with the connotations of uneducated, ill-informed and inexperienced. I have a relative who came to this country in 1961 - would you call him a "newcomer"?

"Newcomer" means just that. You know what I meant.


There is no problem with "newcomer". There is no problem with "immigrant". There is a problem with calling all immigrants newcomers, as you claimed to.
 
2017-09-14 12:21:39 PM  

Extra Virgin Geek Olive Oil: Lady J: orbister: Benevolent Misanthrope: As a white woman, my experience is vastly different from other ethnic groups.

Who are you to speak about the experiences of other ethnic groups? Check your privilege.

I'm growing to hate that phrase.

It's used as a means of just shutting down a conversation. Rather than address any points of a statement, it calls to question the validity of the origin of the challenger as if the origins of the speaker mean something. It discriminates a person's voice or expression based on race, gender, religion, and income, and worse, it assumes that if a person falls into a specific combination of those categories, that anything that person says is invalid.

"You were born x so your opinion doesn't matter."


You are absolutely right, but in this case the poster had claimed that her status as a white woman allowed her to speak about the experiences of other groups. She was explicitly claiming privilege for herself, so in this case I think it was OK to point that out.
 
2017-09-14 12:34:15 PM  
Sometimes the message doesn't get across...

img.fark.netView Full Size

img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2017-09-14 12:36:21 PM  

Lady J: DontMakeMeComeBackThere: peterquince: Smoking GNU: Benevolent Misanthrope: And they sold the fark out of them, too.

We had a thread about this recently - how rapists don't know they're rapists and the whole idea of consent being difficult for many men to get their brains around.  This makes me think guys feel like consent for sex is a joke - something you do because she might falsely accuse you of rape later, but everybody knows it's just another PC-stupid thing.

As a male, i find ''No means no'' to be pretty self-explanatory.

The challenge is convincing some guys (not directed at you, because you're clearly a supporter) that "no means no" isn't enough - but that "yes means yes".

Been married a long time now...so I've been out of the dating scene for a long time, which means this really isn't my subject or concern...but are times such that you REALLY have to stop what you  are doing, and ask your female partner (who is going along gleefully with everything so far, who has said not a word of protest) "Are you REALLY sure you want to have sex now?" "Really, really sure?" "I'm not pressuring you into anything?"   That seems really bizarre to me.  Again, not my scene anymore, but has it really gotten that bad with predatory men, and women who can't (I know that is a loaded word) stand up for themselves and just say "No."?

No of course not. The vast majority of people have sufficiently developed social skills that it's obvious whether someone wants to or not.

If someone is all over you, kissing you back, taking your clothes off as you take theirs off, etc, then you don't need to check they want to cos it's obvious.

But if someone is not responding at all, just stting there, or lying there, it probably is worth saying 'are you sure you want to do this?' It might be they're very nervous and they want you to take the lead, but they do wanna do it. But it might be that they don't, and they're scared to say no because they think you might be angry or tell everyone they ...


I think the biggest issue, and why there is such a big question mark on the "sensibility" of the entire conversation is that there are 2 sides to this subject.

On one side, you have how people actually interact with each other in intimate settings. Things get hot and heavy, and there is body language and a lot of physical touching and plenty of greenlight signs that everything is ok and things happen, sometimes people talk it out, other times people just read body language or follow their instinct. In most cases, I would throw a dart at this and say 80% (pulling that number out of my ass) of the time, there's no problems with this. However there is the 20% where things go wrong. A person is intoxicated; a person gets coerced; a person gets drugged - whatever the reason is, there is an issue where one party doesn't say anything to stop the other person or worse one person ignores what the other person is saying. That's the 20% where shiat goes wrong and when it goes wrong it can go wrong in a very traumatic and life altering way.

This is where side 2 of the topic comes in. The social conversation of the topic. By that I mean what is discussed in large groups, what the accepted narrative is, what the socially contracted procedures are when engaging in the activity. On this side, there are people who are forming the ideal "standard operating procedure" on how to engage in intimacy. It takes into account how to best engage in these situations that seeks to eliminate that 20% while at the same time keeping the other 80% happy. The issue you end up having here is that what is deemed acceptable varies differently from person to person. The conversation seeks to apply an SOP but because people view acceptability at different levels, an SOP still ends up screwing up about 20% of the people, it's just a different 20%. If the rules of engagement are , "Only Yes means Yes, and everything else means No" then you end up with people who make arguments that this rule ignores common sense. Or you have people who say this rule doesn't go far enough.

The problem with conversations like this is that everyone's line is different. No blanket SOP/ROE will account for 100% of the people 100% of the time and in social conversations, especially online, there will always be people who are passionate about subjects like this who want to "fix the problem" who wind up butting heads with people who simply want to go about their business and use what has worked for them that they have never had a problem with before. So you end up with hyperbolic statements like "Unless she is physically putting your dick in one of her holes, then it means no". Those kinds of statements come from people who are tired of hearing people argue what the line should be when everyone's line is different. You could literally have one woman saying "If I'm acting excited and ripping his clothes off, he doesn't need to stop and ask permission, it's implied" and another woman arguing "No, you are wrong, if nothing is said it's not consensual." while at the same time both women agreeing that "Non-consensual sex is rape".
 
2017-09-14 12:42:05 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: meanmutton: Benevolent Misanthrope: theflatline: Benevolent Misanthrope: yoyopro: Benevolent Misanthrope:
We had a thread about this recently - how rapists don't know they're rapists and the whole idea of consent being difficult for many men to get their brains around.  This makes me think guys feel like consent for sex is a joke - something you do because she might falsely accuse you of rape later, but everybody knows it's just another PC-stupid thing.

I understand you.  Speaking as a male, sometimes I am ashamed to be one of them.  But take heart, we're not all like that.
Speaking as a white male, sometimes I feel compelled to say the same thing to my black friends.

Yeah - I know what you mean. As a white woman, my experience is vastly different from other ethnic groups. And even though I'm gay, that's not obvious. It's not the same as being part of a visible minority. I often want to say to my black and Latino friends, "Yes,  I get it that I enjoy privilege. Please don't think I'm like those turds in Charlottesville."

Are you Canadian?

"Visible minority".

No, but used to live there and I like that shorthand.  I also use "newcomer" instead of "immigrant".  It's just nicer.

It's only nicer if you'er a xenophobe.

How would you suggest we identify people who are not citizens yet? There are times when identifying people who are new to the country is acceptable, you know.


It would be a shame if the only people using the word immigrant were using it as a pejorative, locking the word in linguistic hell bound with sympathetic magic. And eventually "newcomer" would suffer the same fate since everyone knows you're talking about those people.
 
2017-09-14 12:44:57 PM  

orbister: Extra Virgin Geek Olive Oil: Lady J: orbister: Benevolent Misanthrope: As a white woman, my experience is vastly different from other ethnic groups.

Who are you to speak about the experiences of other ethnic groups? Check your privilege.

I'm growing to hate that phrase.

It's used as a means of just shutting down a conversation. Rather than address any points of a statement, it calls to question the validity of the origin of the challenger as if the origins of the speaker mean something. It discriminates a person's voice or expression based on race, gender, religion, and income, and worse, it assumes that if a person falls into a specific combination of those categories, that anything that person says is invalid.

"You were born x so your opinion doesn't matter."

You are absolutely right, but in this case the poster had claimed that her status as a white woman allowed her to speak about the experiences of other groups. She was explicitly claiming privilege for herself, so in this case I think it was OK to point that out.


Ok, let me see if I understand you correctly. You are saying when she uses the words "My experiences differ from that of other ethnic groups" that she is making a knowledge claim on what other ethnic groups experiences are?
 
2017-09-14 12:45:04 PM  

orbister: Extra Virgin Geek Olive Oil: Lady J: orbister: Benevolent Misanthrope: As a white woman, my experience is vastly different from other ethnic groups.

Who are you to speak about the experiences of other ethnic groups? Check your privilege.

I'm growing to hate that phrase.

It's used as a means of just shutting down a conversation. Rather than address any points of a statement, it calls to question the validity of the origin of the challenger as if the origins of the speaker mean something. It discriminates a person's voice or expression based on race, gender, religion, and income, and worse, it assumes that if a person falls into a specific combination of those categories, that anything that person says is invalid.

"You were born x so your opinion doesn't matter."

You are absolutely right, but in this case the poster had claimed that her status as a white woman allowed her to speak about the experiences of other groups. She was explicitly claiming privilege for herself, so in this case I think it was OK to point that out.


That's a little over the top, she's pretty much stating the opposite.

I think it's obvious at worst. It's not like all people of the same ethnic group have similar experiences to begin with.
 
2017-09-14 12:47:02 PM  
::shakes tiny fist::
 
2017-09-14 12:50:52 PM  

Extra Virgin Geek Olive Oil: orbister: Extra Virgin Geek Olive Oil: Lady J: orbister: Benevolent Misanthrope: As a white woman, my experience is vastly different from other ethnic groups.

Who are you to speak about the experiences of other ethnic groups? Check your privilege.

I'm growing to hate that phrase.

It's used as a means of just shutting down a conversation. Rather than address any points of a statement, it calls to question the validity of the origin of the challenger as if the origins of the speaker mean something. It discriminates a person's voice or expression based on race, gender, religion, and income, and worse, it assumes that if a person falls into a specific combination of those categories, that anything that person says is invalid.

"You were born x so your opinion doesn't matter."

You are absolutely right, but in this case the poster had claimed that her status as a white woman allowed her to speak about the experiences of other groups. She was explicitly claiming privilege for herself, so in this case I think it was OK to point that out.

Ok, let me see if I understand you correctly. You are saying when she uses the words "My experiences differ from that of other ethnic groups" that she is making a knowledge claim on what other ethnic groups experiences are?


I should also add in: And there's no way she can *know* what their experiences are like because she can never live through them.

Does that sound about right?
 
2017-09-14 12:53:38 PM  

Extra Virgin Geek Olive Oil: Extra Virgin Geek Olive Oil: orbister: Extra Virgin Geek Olive Oil: Lady J: orbister: Benevolent Misanthrope: As a white woman, my experience is vastly different from other ethnic groups.

Who are you to speak about the experiences of other ethnic groups? Check your privilege.

I'm growing to hate that phrase.

It's used as a means of just shutting down a conversation. Rather than address any points of a statement, it calls to question the validity of the origin of the challenger as if the origins of the speaker mean something. It discriminates a person's voice or expression based on race, gender, religion, and income, and worse, it assumes that if a person falls into a specific combination of those categories, that anything that person says is invalid.

"You were born x so your opinion doesn't matter."

You are absolutely right, but in this case the poster had claimed that her status as a white woman allowed her to speak about the experiences of other groups. She was explicitly claiming privilege for herself, so in this case I think it was OK to point that out.

Ok, let me see if I understand you correctly. You are saying when she uses the words "My experiences differ from that of other ethnic groups" that she is making a knowledge claim on what other ethnic groups experiences are?

I should also add in: And there's no way she can *know* what their experiences are like because she can never live through them.

Does that sound about right?


Oh no she's also "othering " them, depending on the way you feel about her eating crackers.
 
2017-09-14 12:55:09 PM  

DontMakeMeComeBackThere: peterquince: Smoking GNU: Benevolent Misanthrope: And they sold the fark out of them, too.

We had a thread about this recently - how rapists don't know they're rapists and the whole idea of consent being difficult for many men to get their brains around.  This makes me think guys feel like consent for sex is a joke - something you do because she might falsely accuse you of rape later, but everybody knows it's just another PC-stupid thing.

As a male, i find ''No means no'' to be pretty self-explanatory.

The challenge is convincing some guys (not directed at you, because you're clearly a supporter) that "no means no" isn't enough - but that "yes means yes".

Been married a long time now...so I've been out of the dating scene for a long time, which means this really isn't my subject or concern...but are times such that you REALLY have to stop what you  are doing, and ask your female partner (who is going along gleefully with everything so far, who has said not a word of protest) "Are you REALLY sure you want to have sex now?"  "Really, really sure?" "I'm not pressuring you into anything?"   That seems really bizarre to me.  Again, not my scene anymore, but has it really gotten that bad with predatory men, and women who can't (I know that is a loaded word) stand up for themselves and just say "No."?


There's nothing unsexy about "are you good with this?" as activities unfold. It's not even so much about predatory guys as about making sure everyone's on the same page.

And.....in the case of drunken college folk, can also be about coherence as a requirement for concent (that "too farked up to say no" isn't the same as a "yes.")

The first time I was "with" my fiance, he (we're a gay couple) asked "is this okay" at least three or four times as things progressed. Didn't kill the mood at all.

I don't think anyone's pushing for anything even that drastic. I think it's more about moving the needle a little bit.
 
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