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(MSN)   So what can brown do for you? How about freeze your pension if you are a nonunionized worker?   ( msn.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, Pension, percent annual gain, UPS, different retirement benefit, vested pension benefit, S&P CoreLogic Case-Shiller, Environmental Health Hazard, benefit retirement plan  
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1220 clicks; posted to Business » on 28 Jun 2017 at 4:20 PM (46 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



25 Comments     (+0 »)
 
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2017-06-28 03:35:40 PM  
Wait... there are companies still offering pensions?!  O.o
 
2017-06-28 04:22:22 PM  

SpaceyCat: Wait... there are companies still offering pensions?!  O.o


Offering and paying are two different things.
 
2017-06-28 04:29:31 PM  
Great job, GOP, convincing Americans that unions suck "because they are greedy, and keep lazy/bad people from getting fired."

You have convinced the vast majority of Americans that their employers have their best interests at heart. What a farking con.
 
2017-06-28 04:32:49 PM  
If you don't  have a contract, fark you.

Yay, right to work.
 
2017-06-28 05:13:15 PM  

SpaceyCat: Wait... there are companies still offering pensions?!  O.o


Yep.  I got into mine (a large telecom company) right before they stopped offering it.  Two years after I started, new hires don't get a pension.
 
2017-06-28 05:20:13 PM  
So is this the thread where people talk about how awesome pensions are and how terrible 401ks are?
 
2017-06-28 05:30:57 PM  
I remember there used to be a big department store chain around here called Van Luenens. When they went under it was revealed that their entire pension fund consisted of nothing but their own stock. Give me a 401k that I control any day
 
2017-06-28 05:31:59 PM  

BMFPitt: So is this the thread where people talk about how awesome pensions are and how terrible 401ks are?


I wasn't planning on it, but if you insist:

My father-in-law retired from federal government service at 65 with a pension that pays 85% of his working salary*. Now he devotes himself to his hobbies and his hobby-related small business, and as a result makes more in retirement than he did working. He takes one or two international trips per year- last year was Japan and Mongolia. He hasn't needed to touch what he calls his retirement savings.

Seems like a pretty farking good deal to me.

No, that pension plan is no longer offered to new hires and hasn't been for decades. He also had to fight off several privatization and buyout attempts through his career, some of which would have required converting his accumulated pension to a 401K right before or during the late 90's or more recent stock market implosions.

*It's actually the average of his three or five most highly paid years, I believe.
 
2017-06-28 05:36:44 PM  
I hear they're hiring over at Amazon....
 
2017-06-28 05:37:45 PM  

Not_Todd: I remember there used to be a big department store chain around here called Van Luenens. When they went under it was revealed that their entire pension fund consisted of nothing but their own stock. Give me a 401k that I control any day


In a properly run pension fund you get quarterly or yearly reports about the pension's holdings and major changes in market position require a vote.

There is also such a thing as pension insurance, where an outside company guarantees a certain level of pension funding. My grandfather actually sold this kind of insurance to pension plans and institutional investors back in the day. Of course, such insurance requires opening up your books to a third party with a vested interest in making sure you're doing things right, so it's not for everyone (i.e. crooks and charlatans).
 
2017-06-28 06:14:34 PM  

BMFPitt: So is this the thread where people talk about how awesome pensions are and how terrible 401ks are?


Both, if managed and funded properly, are great.

The Wisconsin Retirement System is a fully funded shared risk/reward plan.  Now it's 5 years to vest and average of three highest (they are trying for 5) years earnings that go into the calculation.  The core plan smooths over a 5 year period and the variable fund is all stock.

It's been fine during both Rs and Ds in office.  IF YOU RUN THE SYSTEM LIKE IT SHOULD BE YOU'LL BE FINE YOU DOLTS.

/don't mess with it Scotty & crew
 
2017-06-28 07:40:51 PM  

the_innkeeper: Great job, GOP, convincing Americans that unions suck "because they are greedy, and keep lazy/bad people from getting fired."

You have convinced the vast majority of Americans that their employers have their best interests at heart. What a farking con.


I am no fan of the GOP.

Nether am I a big fan of labor unions.

It's possible to see the disadvantages of unions without being a Fox News drone.

The Teamsters were so continually corrupt and tied to the mob that they had a Federal oversight board for decades, until only a few years ago. They used the union pension fund to give loans to the Mafia.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1985-10-28/news/8503130785_1_cleve​l​and-mafia-kansas-city-mafia-angelo-lonardo

The GOP Boogyman is not responsible for every problem in the US.
 
2017-06-28 07:43:19 PM  

BMFPitt: So is this the thread where people talk about how awesome pensions are and how terrible 401ks are?


One trouble with pensions is that the worker does not own it. The employer owns it and can hypothetically modify it at any time.

On a more philosophical level, I suppose, another problem is the shifting of responsibility for retirement planning to someone else
 
2017-06-28 08:20:14 PM  

SpaceyCat: Wait... there are companies still offering pensions?!  O.o


Mine does. But as with most companies, the old guys' pension is better than what newer employees can get. The old guys love to point that out when they gripe.

/works for a UPS competitor
 
2017-06-28 09:40:58 PM  

BMFPitt: So is this the thread where people talk about how awesome pensions are and how terrible 401ks are?


I enjoy having both, also supplemented by Social Security.
 
2017-06-28 09:42:11 PM  

facepalm.jpg: My father-in-law retired from federal government service at 65 with a pension that pays 85% of his working salary*.


Is he a CSRS retiree?
 
2017-06-28 11:11:57 PM  

facepalm.jpg: There is also such a thing as pension insurance, where an outside company guarantees a certain level of pension funding. My grandfather actually sold this kind of insurance to pension plans and institutional investors back in the day. Of course, such insurance requires opening up your books to a third party with a vested interest in making sure you're doing things right, so it's not for everyone (i.e. crooks and charlatans).


Yeah, but just hired a guy who totes legit, double pinkie swears that we can underfund the pension by 10% every year and make it up in growth.
 
2017-06-29 02:51:31 AM  

mrmopar5287: facepalm.jpg: My father-in-law retired from federal government service at 65 with a pension that pays 85% of his working salary*.

Is he a CSRS retiree?


After googling a bit that sounds right, but I don't really know the names. He worked his entire career in the federal government from college up to retirement, and the internet suggests that you'd have pension income of 80% your 3-highest years after 42 years service is correct.

I'm not sure where the 80% to 85% discrepancy comes from. It could be I misheard or misremembered, but he's always been a frugal saver so he might have set up a separate retirement fund.
 
2017-06-29 03:23:39 AM  

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: facepalm.jpg: There is also such a thing as pension insurance, where an outside company guarantees a certain level of pension funding. My grandfather actually sold this kind of insurance to pension plans and institutional investors back in the day. Of course, such insurance requires opening up your books to a third party with a vested interest in making sure you're doing things right, so it's not for everyone (i.e. crooks and charlatans).

Yeah, but just hired a guy who totes legit, double pinkie swears that we can underfund the pension by 10% every year and make it up in growth.


A little irony: granddad sold pensions and pension products for his entire career, and ended up an executive in the pension and institutional investing side of a now defunct insurance company, but felt compelled to buy out his pension for a lump-sum after he saw the writing on the wall at his company.

Towards the end of his career "the young hotshot morons" came in and wanted to invest some of the pension money in risky but potentially high-yield markets on the theory that there was enough money in the pension fund that they could weather any short term losses. The idea was that the company would get an investment return in excess of what was necessary to service the pension program and that excess could go to the company as revenue. Of course, the risk was that if you managed to loose money then that was real people's retirements you were losing. As one of the custodians of that money, he would have had to sign off on the plan, which he steadfastly refused for years.

He kept the morons at bay for a long while, but at some point the company was bought and new management was brought in. This management was part of the new guard that had a laser-like focus on the company's stock performance. In that environment the company promoted anything that could be seen to turn a buck, because quarterly profit reports were suddenly the most important product the company offered. The new management told him to go along with the morons' plans, and granddad told them "over my dead body" because no matter how small the risk it was unethical to gamble with people's pensions.

The new management thought that was a fine response, and forced him into an early retirement. Nobody needs a stick in the mud when there's money to be made. Granddad, having seen the people who were now managing his pension, opted for a lump-sum buyout when it was offered. Then there was a string of badly handled shifts in the business, and less than a decade later the company collapsed in a "liquidity crisis" after the .com bubble had burst. Among other problems, the downfall in the market had resulted in a dramatically underfunded pension plan.
 
2017-06-29 09:14:35 AM  

facepalm.jpg: Seems like a pretty farking good deal to me.


I should have specified that I was talking about from private employers.  If any company offered something like CSRS, they'd be bankrupt within a decade of their first large wave of retirees.

Even the federal government decided that it was unsustainable.  That's saying something.

I would much rather have had the present value of my FERS put into the TSP instead.  Without the golden handcuffs, I'd have been able to take a better job instead of suffering through 3 years of pay freeze.
 
2017-06-29 09:58:36 AM  

facepalm.jpg: mrmopar5287: facepalm.jpg: My father-in-law retired from federal government service at 65 with a pension that pays 85% of his working salary*.

Is he a CSRS retiree?

After googling a bit that sounds right, but I don't really know the names. He worked his entire career in the federal government from college up to retirement, and the internet suggests that you'd have pension income of 80% your 3-highest years after 42 years service is correct.

I'm not sure where the 80% to 85% discrepancy comes from. It could be I misheard or misremembered, but he's always been a frugal saver so he might have set up a separate retirement fund.



CSRS pensions pay higher amounts because all the federal employees covered there never paid into Social Security (and could not draw from it). Their pension had to cover benefits that made up for that.
 
2017-06-29 11:22:06 AM  

mrmopar5287: facepalm.jpg: mrmopar5287: facepalm.jpg: My father-in-law retired from federal government service at 65 with a pension that pays 85% of his working salary*.

Is he a CSRS retiree?

After googling a bit that sounds right, but I don't really know the names. He worked his entire career in the federal government from college up to retirement, and the internet suggests that you'd have pension income of 80% your 3-highest years after 42 years service is correct.

I'm not sure where the 80% to 85% discrepancy comes from. It could be I misheard or misremembered, but he's always been a frugal saver so he might have set up a separate retirement fund.


CSRS pensions pay higher amounts because all the federal employees covered there never paid into Social Security (and could not draw from it). Their pension had to cover benefits that made up for that.


Yeah, my wife (a school teacher) is in the same situation: she doesn't pay into social security so her pension and retirement plan pay more to make up for it.
 
2017-06-29 12:13:22 PM  
Reminds me of back in 2005 or so when Delta was in chapter 11 (I think) and they flat out erased pilot's pensions.  My buddy's dad was a retired Delta pilot and one day.....no more pension payments.
 
2017-06-29 12:16:16 PM  

BMFPitt: So is this the thread where people talk about how awesome pensions are and how terrible 401ks are?


No.  I don't like a pension plan.  I have one though.  Problem is that it has now sort of made me stuck at where I work.  If this were a 401k it would be portable.  The pension plan has lots of elements to it that create large disincentives to leave.  401k is just an example of a more modern, better way to do things.  It's called progress.
 
2017-06-29 03:49:11 PM  

RyansPrivates: SpaceyCat: Wait... there are companies still offering pensions?!  O.o

Yep.  I got into mine (a large telecom company) right before they stopped offering it.  Two years after I started, new hires don't get a pension.


My father bailed on Lucent after working there 35 years.  One of his colleagues stayed another 6 months and lost his pension.  Others took the lump sum plan, bought vacation homes and speed boats and blew through it in 5 years.
Still, better than most people who never planned for retirement.  It will all be fixed by Paul Ryan's HSA 401k plan though, right?
 
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