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(King5 Seattle)   Green Beret who died in ambush in Afghanistan leaves two kids behind - donation information at the end of the article   ( divider line
    More: Hero  
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939 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Jan 2002 at 8:48 AM (16 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»

126 Comments     (+0 »)

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2002-01-09 11:58:45 AM  

The odds that we'd any better off in the world without your father serving is, sadly, approximately zero. This is not meant as an insult; just a correction to your "You have him, (and my entire family) to thank for the freedom and liberty you so carelessly mistreat". Actually, we don't, really - there a lot of people we have to thank a whole lot more than you and your family. Just because your father chose to go about trying to preserve freedom and liberty in a dangerous manner, by standing apon all of the tools and economic power needed to wage war built by everyone else in this country, simply means that he chose a more dangerous, stand-out-ish route.
2002-01-09 11:58:47 AM  

This is the part that really got to me fromt hat article,
(Besides of course the obvious 100 innocent people killed)

Precision-guided bombs vaporized all five buildings and a second wave an hour later hit people digging in the rubble and, judging from hair and flesh on the edge of three 40ft holes some distance from the complex, those trying to flee.

Now I remeber during the 9/11 events that terrorist experts will bomb something, then a second bomb will go off an hour or so later to kill the people trying to help the victims.
Looks like American learns from the best.

You will notice that the next paragraph starts off with,

Two days later villagers with shovels and tractors extracted the remains.

So scared to get bombed again trying to help they waited two days.
2002-01-09 12:04:10 PM  
Warren Peese:

No irony at all. Surprise was probably the main element of this happening -- and ambush. And as far as the boy doing so as an act of revenge ... that's mere speculation ... and projecting YOUR feelings about the situation onto that young fellow.

Oh, I'm sorry, what's your reasoning behind the attack? Was he some 14-year-old al-Qaeda agent? Yes, it is speculation, and I made that clear - but unless you can come up with a better explanation, it's also quite reasonable. Especially given how heavily we'd been bombing in Patkia recently, and the number of civilian deaths we had caused.

As for the irony, it's that, for one of few times in this war, special forces troops were on a (at least outwardly) nonviolent mission. And also, a minor irony that we're talking about the kids he left behind when he was killed by a kid.

Surprise was the main element, undoubtably. I certainly wouldn't contest that. But, I'd think 25 special forces would do better against 5 afghan teenagers, than to take a casualty and several woundings, and to have all of the attackers escape - which would make me assume they were un-injured if they were able to all get away.
2002-01-09 12:07:43 PM  
Oh to tie that statement with the story, I'd give the people who died trying to help the people injured by the first U.S. missiles a hero tag prior to the guy in this article.

Ordinary civilians sacrificing their lives going above and beyond to help people hit by a missile is pretty heroic.
2002-01-09 12:24:25 PM  
Surprise was the main element, undoubtably. I certainly wouldn't contest that. But, I'd think 25 special forces would do better against 5 afghan teenagers,

Personaly, I am not suprised that 5 Afghan teenagers did so well, since their impoverished country has been a battle field for just about every country in the world at some point. Also the largest and most advanced military in the world has been bombing this country everyday for 3 or is now 4 months. The teenagers alone must be that good, for us to expend so many resources on this country.
2002-01-09 12:36:35 PM  
I do think that Rei and Nkosika should continue this thread on the telephone. I just surfed back in and it appears as tho' everyone has left, but for those two.

Hello! Is there anyone else out there?
2002-01-09 12:42:54 PM  
Dllsgrlz: I respect your dad for serving as a colonel. But I owe your family shiat.
2002-01-09 12:45:11 PM  
Hello! Is there anyone else out there?

You obviously still are.
2002-01-09 12:46:24 PM  
WarmBeer, "Regardless, blowing up anyone who is in the process of surrendering is pretty sick, I don't care who it is."

Neither do I -- the only good terrorist is a dead terrorist.

Dllsgrlz, I'll tip one for the Colonel next time that I am out-and-about.

2002-01-09 12:48:56 PM  
Nkosika, yeah -- as I said I just surfed back in.
2002-01-09 12:53:42 PM  
Dllsgrlz, Your dad is a hero in my book for putting his life on the line daily for our butts.

Heroes come in many forms, but basically they're people who risk their lives to help others. Doesn't matter if they volunteered for the job - such as firefighters, police, military. The fact is, they're doing something voluntarily that they know puts their lives in danger - yet they still do it.

How many of us can say the same things about our jobs - sitting at computers surfing the net while at work? Would you voluntarily take a job that doesn't pay very well yet expects you to put your life on the line every single day?

We owe our lives and our freedom to people like Nathan Chapman.
2002-01-09 12:54:12 PM  

Neither do I -- the only good terrorist is a dead terrorist.

You do realise that the "American Patriots" that fought for the freedom of the United States were terrorists?
2002-01-09 12:56:06 PM  
TheTick: "Neither do I -- the only good terrorist is a dead terrorist."

They weren't terrorists.
2002-01-09 12:58:32 PM  
Nkosika, not by my definition.
2002-01-09 01:02:27 PM  

How many of us can say the same things about our jobs - sitting at computers surfing the net while at work? Would you voluntarily take a job that doesn't pay very well yet expects you to put your life on the line every single day?

Well if we all took one of those jobs, who would be at the computers? And I think I do put my life on the line every single day at work, I could get trapped in a fire, somebody could go postal and shoot me (I do work in the tech support industry so it is very likely), I could get killed in a car accident on my way to work.

we owe our loves and our freedom to people like Nathan Chapman

It isn't like this guy died to protect our freedoms, unless Afgahnistan now has a really big navy and is thinking of invaiding america. And I don't owe my life to anybody but the two people that made me. They did more to get me here than anybody else.
2002-01-09 01:02:49 PM  
TheTick: It would be insteresting to hear your definition then.
2002-01-09 01:15:52 PM  
They aren't defined as Terrorist by him because they won, and got to define themselves as patriots. Now if they had lost, they would be reffered to by the British as that group of radical terrorists back in 1772, that threw tea overboard, sabatoged british ships, killed british soldiers.

Now if the Al-Queda (sp?) were to win. Then we would know them as them later in history as the Brave and Heroic freedom fighters, fighting and winning against the evil United States.

It is all how the winners write the history.
2002-01-09 01:15:53 PM  
Nkosika, "...they did more to get me here than anybody else." And I am sure that they still regret it.

WarmBeer, my definition of a terrorist -- I simply calls them as I see them.
2002-01-09 01:18:32 PM  
The tick, is that all you can do is make one liner personal attacks? I mean I learned that, that was a bad thing to do back in the 1st grade.

The term grow up comes to mind.
2002-01-09 01:19:11 PM  
Nkosika, " is all how the winners write the history."

That is because the losers are, for the most part, dead.
2002-01-09 01:20:44 PM  
Rei please stop talking tactics you have shown over and over and over again you are ignorant of them. One casulty in an ambush by 5 people. Remember, in case you forgot as your statement implys, bullets travel faster then sound so it hits you BEFORE you know it is comming. Other things you seem to forget are guns can throw a lot of bullets in a short time. Ambush means surprise attack, usually from behind cover. Thanks for jacking the thread about a serviceman who died for his country (Right or wrong as you may see it you have to respect the dedication). This thread is making me ill, someone puts a donation center in their story about a Widow and her children and everyone gets hatefull, Granted he did sign up to be in the military and the chance was there so maybe it is not as tragic as a fatal car crash or something but think for a min if it was your father. Would you want to go to some comments section and hear pompous arrogant adolecent trolls who have never had a belief worth dying for in their lives. The story was not about how financially farked the family will be, it was not a plea for help. If you don't want to donate to help a widow then don't, go donate more of that money to bill gates or whatever computer guru you find more agreeable. Rei your jacking of this thread to push of more of your biased source, anti american propaganda is just about as bad.

AS Far as the distinction of Taliban and AlQueda. Al Queda funds Taliban. AlQueda effectively owns taliban you yourself rei said they donated more the the GDP of Afghanistan to the Taliban annualy or somesuch trash. Think of it like AOL/Time Warner. Time Warner still have offices and time warner vans... yes is it owned by AOL.. yes. Is AOL time warner.. no is time warner AOL.. YES.

Onto the likely hood of someones Grandfather/father etc serving in the military and standing a 0% chance of making this world better or more free for you right now trip you went on Rei. They have more chance then you of making this world a better place, or if it makes you feel superior I will still grant you may have twice thier chance (0 by your calculations so we all know what happens when we multiply by zero) So please go with your beleifs and end it, your not going to do anything good anyway, why bother, your only hear to witness more suffering and evil. This nihilist trash is just that. Do we owe them for our freedom yes. Do they expect a check for that.. not really (Unless it is retirement) I think it is the least we can do to not try and look for the worst possible reason some writer (Not the family) put the donation plug in his story. Okay I am done for now.
2002-01-09 01:20:53 PM  
Nah, being a child is to much fun.

Also, I would like to keep the thread within your realm of your knowledge and experience.
2002-01-09 01:23:37 PM  

Thant should be "..within the realm of your knowledge and experience."
2002-01-09 01:24:03 PM  
I mean damnit Rei even Harmonia extended sympahy and be decent about this.
2002-01-09 01:26:40 PM  
"That is because the losers are, for the most part, dead."

England died?

When did this happen?
2002-01-09 01:30:05 PM  
Okay act like a kid then.

Go outside and play in the sandbox and let the adults talk.
2002-01-09 01:31:05 PM  
Nkosike, it ahppened when our folks from 1776 became known as "patriots."

And to quote the always entertaining Rei: "Anything else you want to know?"
2002-01-09 01:32:13 PM  
Nkosika, great! Meet you outside in the sandbox!
2002-01-09 01:33:18 PM  

Dear god, vman, first off, the reason I brought that up was to mention the already referenced irony; and, secondly, I wasn't criticizing the soldier for *dying* - I was more criticizing 25 special forces soldiers for being so unprepared that they were not able to apprehand, wound, kill, etc, a single 14-year-old - and not even that harshly. And do you have to be so condescending?

AlQueda effectively owns taliban you yourself rei said they donated more the the GDP of Afghanistan to the Taliban annualy or somesuch trash.

So, oil companies own Bush? Microsoft owns Bush? Other major commercial interests own Bush? Hardly.

The Taliban, like the Northern Alliance and pretty much every other warlord-run regime in the world, has been looking out for their best interests. Unfortunately for them, we didn't give them the chance this time. ("Turn over the 10,000 best fighters in your country! Asking them to leave isn't good enough! And, while you're at it, give is free reign of your territory, release all US prisoners, establish contact with an alien species...").

right now trip you went on Rei.

Actually, my passport came through 3 days too late. The people at the office lie... it took longer, when expidited, than they assured me the maximum amount of time for a non-expidited passport was.

Regardless, you ignored the rest of the sentence. The members of the military stand purely atop the economic and technological might of the country, built by everyone else. Are you not going to contest that?

BTW, nice subtle change of my words "approximately zero" to "zero", and then using your new "exact zero" to multiply by.

your only hear to witness more suffering and evil

It's more of the fact that you're blind to it; that's why I try to raise awareness of it.
2002-01-09 01:34:40 PM  

I have extended my sympathy. This is, what, the third thread on this soldier? Do you expect me to do it every time? I have to express sympathy for a hundred afghan civilians in one big glob, and even then I get criticized for mentioning them.
2002-01-09 01:38:35 PM  
Rei, I saw that movie about the glob!...uh, no that was blob...uh....never mind....
2002-01-09 01:40:33 PM  

Wow, you don't seem to be in an insulting mood today... you seem to be in more of a silly mood, ne? :)
2002-01-09 01:41:10 PM  
What exactly makes this guy a hero? I can't seem to find any mention of heroic actions at all. And if just fighting in a war makes a person a hero, what do we now call the people who do the truly heroic acts, those we used to call heroes? Do they get a bump up in status, too? Does someone who willingly gave up his own life so that the rest of his platoon could live get lumped in with the people who just got shot?

Calling just anybody a hero cheapens the title, and degrades the real heroes. Even this guy's wife doesn't buy into this "hero" crap - read her quote at the end of the article. If you want to honor him for something, honor him for something he actually did. He sounds like he was a decent family man and a good father.
2002-01-09 01:42:21 PM  
Oh give me a farking break. Sure it's sad that this guy died doing his JOB. But where's the individual articles and tags for all the other 'hero's' who died? Not to mention all the 'hero's' in WW2...
Nearly all of these people must've left some kind of loved one behind but still they get neglected because they weren't the first to die!?? What kind of farked up shiat is that!?
2002-01-09 01:52:06 PM  
Has anyone seen my little lost retarded son. Mommy's nipples are cold and stale without him. Oh, there he is. Guess he's calling himself "the tick" now. Someone please pop off his head and burn his body.
2002-01-09 01:54:36 PM  
Rei, I'm not insulting. You only take me to be insulting. Besides, I do not want you to throw a hissy fit and go away again -- threads are just to darn short when you are not posting.

Oh yeah, I want to see Nkosika throw a hissy fit. Should be a good one. (When we were outside in the sandbox just now she did thow a plastic pail at me.)
2002-01-09 01:55:56 PM  
"Heroes are created by popular demand, sometimes out of the scantiest materials."
- Gerald W. Johnson
2002-01-09 02:03:15 PM  
Rei I have extended my sympathy. This is, what, the third thread on this soldier? Do you expect me to do it every time?

Not only should you be extending your sympathy you should be extending your gratitude. To this soldier and all the others who have put thier lives on the line to protect your freedoms.

The women of Afghanistan would marval at the freedoms that you take for granted.
(To say nothing of all the food you shove in your hole).

Beyond just being a "soldier", this individual was part of a group that goes in behind enemy lines, with minimal support, to recon targets for bombardment.
I would say that this person was very brave, selfless and a hero.
2002-01-09 02:05:40 PM  
Hero or not, it's bull that his kids need money from the public for their education. They can go to public school like they would have if their dad was alive. Maybe they don't want to go to college; but if they did, why couldn't they struggle through the obstacles like everyone else. It's not like Dad would have sent them to Oxford anyway. It burns me up how this society thinks they are entitled to something for every accident, act of God, or whatever happens. Fark 'em! Cope and move on but don't drag everyone else down with you. It probably wasn't even the family that started the fund, but some a-hole lawyer or media person thinking he'd be some friggin' HERO. I'm bitter!
2002-01-09 02:11:55 PM  
Oh Rei I am more then aware of suffering and evil in this world. It is all around us every single day it is hard to farkin miss. I just realize their is not a magic wand, no miricle cure. We are fighting a cancer and unfortunately some damn good cells are going to be removed along with the tumor. Yes I am sad civilians die in war, I take heart in knowing that we are doing our best to reduce it keeping in mind that we also want to preverve as many of our serviceman as possible, what concerns me is that you consider that evil.

Hey Rei do oil companys give bush 50% of the money our contry can spend... no your streaching it way thin on that one.. your usually better. The beauty of america is that everyone pays into the pot. Not 50% from one wakko sheik if Bill gates gave the gov. a 4 trillion dollar check each year yes he would run the nation. and frankly a lot of people already say the president is owned by special interests. Not just this term either.

If it is the third tread on the soldier perhaps you should biatch about what they post and not spout your propaganda. Yes everyone in the nation plays a role in preserving our freedom, paying taxes and keeping the economy strong and the like I can not contest that. But are they as big of a hero as the man who leaves his blood on the ground, and his children fatherless, no. You can pay to send me to colledge but does that mean you get a degree too. No. We pay by living our lives they pay by giving theirs there is a differnce. As for the irony see the simplified explanation I presented above, sorry it is rather condesending but this thread has really raised my irish.
2002-01-09 02:14:34 PM  
"Oh don't be such a poopiedoodle"
2002-01-09 02:16:22 PM  
Terrorist : Person who uses violence and/or intimidation to achieve political aims, intentionally targeting civilians, non-combatants, and property. See also : murder, theft, and coercion.

Patriot : Person who believes in and supports his country.

Soldier: Member of an organized armed force. Traditionally, soldiers do not INTENTIONALLY target non-military persons or property, although occasionally mistakes happen or opposing armed forces take refuge in civilian population centers.

For those of you about to whip out the Rape of Nanking, Mi Lai, etc. arguments, during some conflicts, soldiers do not follow accepted rules of warfare, and should be punished accordingly. Also, modern warfare requires sometimes hitting strategic targets (industry, which unfortunately is usually located in population centers) such as Dresden, London, Hiroshima, Berlin, Stalingrad, Hanoi, etc. If the Germans in World War II had been able to reach US industry I would not have blamed them for bombing us. The Soviets and the US targeted each other's cities for precisely this reason during the Cold War (take away the industry, you take away the ability of the enemy to make war).

Man this post got long - I apologize.
2002-01-09 02:21:27 PM  
The soldier pay solution is simple. We need to cut funding for NPR, Public TV, welfare, and teachers pay and spend it on the military. Teachers can get by on $20,000/yr, they get 3 months off fer christs sake! Take that extra money and give every soldier a $10,000 raise. Let's get this straightened out as soon as possible. Our defense is more important than Big Bird.
2002-01-09 02:28:38 PM  
fark Charities!

Increase the pay of sailors and soldiers so that they DON'T have to get foodstamps, you cheap farkers. I wasn't paid enough while I was in the Navy, and I had 3 people in my shop who were getting foodstamps.

Cheap farkers....

Most of you farkers don't know the price for freedom, because you have never given it up to defend it.
2002-01-09 02:29:11 PM  
Albert that was an impressive display of off topic sarcasm!
2002-01-09 02:41:10 PM  
Hey Rei do oil companys give bush 50% of the money our contry can spend... no your streaching it way thin on that one.. your usually better.

That was *Horrible*, Vman - making up something and trying to make it sound like I support it.

My *father* is an *oil exec*. No, I *don't* think that oil companies are evil. But, it is a fact that Bush did get large amounts of sponsorship from oil companies, from microsoft, and from a number of large corporations.

You completely skipped over the *point*, in which I was *defending Bush* (imagine that), saying that he is *not* sold out because of the money. That giving someone money does not mean that you own them. And it's certainly not a reason to *bomb* them.

Oh, and this thread "Raised your irish?". Well, what "raised my irish" is the fact that I get falsely criticized for things like not offering my condolances - which I did, and meant (the *first* time), and get yelled at for mentioning *other* people, in groups of *100*, who are also deserving of our sympathy. Next time someone bombs your wedding and then says that it was because you must have been part of some Evil organization, I'd think that *you* would want at least *some* sympathy. Every time a hundred people die, and I mention it in a post, I'm accused of propoganda; every time a single serviceman dies, they give him three threads and if everything in those threads isn't a condolance, you get yelled at.

Well, I'm *sick* of it, ok Vman?
2002-01-09 02:55:43 PM  
Terrorist : Person who uses violence and/or intimidation to achieve political aims, intentionally targeting civilians, non-combatants, and property. See also : murder, theft, and coercion.

Explain how Hiroshima and Nagasaki do not fit into that. Oh, because there was "some" military prescence? Like the Pentagon?

Also, modern warfare requires sometimes hitting strategic targets (industry, which unfortunately is usually located in population centers) such as Dresden, London, Hiroshima, Berlin, Stalingrad, Hanoi, etc.

1) How was Dresden - a city with no military prescence since the Luftwaffe left halfway through the war - just a large amount of refugees - a "strategic target", let alone a strategic target you'd *firebomb*, *level*, and *strafe everyone you saw leaving the city*?

2) Are you aware of the targetting criterea used for choosing Hiroshima as a target? Hint: It wasn't about how strong their military prescence was or the strategic nature of it (read sections 6 and 7 - notice how military importance is portrayed as far less relevant as killing many people and devestating a huge area, and that they ruled out targets that weren't in populated areas, regardless of how important they were, militarily). Furthermore, Truman was lied to and told that Hiroshima was a military base, not a city - either that, or he suddenly changed his mind from his diary, and then lied to the american public when giving his speech (audio)
2002-01-09 03:13:03 PM  
Fb's Mom, I am anxiously awaiting (another) humorous follow-up.

Hey Nkosika, where did you go?

I am just not into farkin today, but I do think I'll go check out another thread...maybe boobies!
2002-01-09 03:31:53 PM  
Nkosika: I say the total the family got was $250,000, because I myself am a sergeant in the US Army, and $250,000 is what we get as part of our Serviceman's Group Life Insurance (SGLI). $250K is the standard, mandatory amount our families get if and when we kick the bucket, unless we die doing something stupid, like drunk driving or whatever. If Sfc. Chapman's family got $25k as part of a separate plan, great, more power to them; but $250,000 is what every soldier in the Army is insured for.
2002-01-09 03:49:56 PM  
Rei I have gone over the military significance of Nagi and Hiroshima in previous posts. I wish I could find my source but i posted it weeks ago without refute from you as to what military operations and installations were there. They were both military targets in the extreme. Due to the nature of the weapon of course pyhc factors were weighted heavily we wanted to break something that was considered unbreakable, the japanese resolve. Granted we thought they would surrender but then again most of us also woke up thinking sept 11 would be a nice day or at least normal. we had to be sure, we made sure with the second bomb. WW2 was a total war neither side gave much credit to civilian casulties, we had to fight the kind of war that was being waged against us. You will notice we did not bomb teh emporors palace or kyoto or tokyo. Before you rant about offering them surrender before bomb two it was not our job they knew our demands and did not send memo of acceptance, they did it to themselves and they are better for it. I forsee a similar situation in afghanistan. Time will tell, but I will wager I am right.
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