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(The Stack)   How Europe or the US could end up developing the 'Betamax' of 5G   (thestack.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, President Andrus Ansip, fully global standards, Gbps 5G demo, current European Commissioner, Digital Single Market, Mobile World Congress, global market reach, natural competitive edge  
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1447 clicks; posted to Fandom » on 28 Feb 2017 at 3:50 PM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2017-02-28 1:18:33 PM  
Same thing happened with 4G. Six years passed between when the initial concepts for 4G were laid down and an actual standard was finalized. In the meantime, there were technologies claiming to be 4G. Sprint dumped everything into WiMAX, which had actually been kicked off before 4G. Verizon and AT&T snatched up most of the 700MHz bandwidth that used to be used for television and worked on separate LTE networks. Neither WiMAX nor LTE are true 4G networks, they don't meet IMT-Advanced (the technical name for 4G) standards. LTE Advanced and WiMAX 2 were rolled out to meet those, but while WiMAX 2 was approved in 2010, I don't know if LTE Advanced ever demonstrated sufficient download speed to qualify.
 
2017-02-28 1:28:25 PM  

timujin: Same thing happened with 4G. Six years passed between when the initial concepts for 4G were laid down and an actual standard was finalized. In the meantime, there were technologies claiming to be 4G. Sprint dumped everything into WiMAX, which had actually been kicked off before 4G. Verizon and AT&T snatched up most of the 700MHz bandwidth that used to be used for television and worked on separate LTE networks. Neither WiMAX nor LTE are true 4G networks, they don't meet IMT-Advanced (the technical name for 4G) standards. LTE Advanced and WiMAX 2 were rolled out to meet those, but while WiMAX 2 was approved in 2010, I don't know if LTE Advanced ever demonstrated sufficient download speed to qualify.


Coincidentally, this same level of analysis is needed to compare cell phone plans in the USA.
 
2017-02-28 4:01:24 PM  
You mean superior quality, but a victim of format wars?
 
2017-02-28 4:01:27 PM  

timujin: Same thing happened with 4G. Six years passed between when the initial concepts for 4G were laid down and an actual standard was finalized. In the meantime, there were technologies claiming to be 4G. Sprint dumped everything into WiMAX, which had actually been kicked off before 4G. Verizon and AT&T snatched up most of the 700MHz bandwidth that used to be used for television and worked on separate LTE networks. Neither WiMAX nor LTE are true 4G networks, they don't meet IMT-Advanced (the technical name for 4G) standards. LTE Advanced and WiMAX 2 were rolled out to meet those, but while WiMAX 2 was approved in 2010, I don't know if LTE Advanced ever demonstrated sufficient download speed to qualify.


And before that you had the whole GSM vs CDMA silliness.
 
2017-02-28 4:26:37 PM  

Mad_Radhu: timujin: Same thing happened with 4G. Six years passed between when the initial concepts for 4G were laid down and an actual standard was finalized. In the meantime, there were technologies claiming to be 4G. Sprint dumped everything into WiMAX, which had actually been kicked off before 4G. Verizon and AT&T snatched up most of the 700MHz bandwidth that used to be used for television and worked on separate LTE networks. Neither WiMAX nor LTE are true 4G networks, they don't meet IMT-Advanced (the technical name for 4G) standards. LTE Advanced and WiMAX 2 were rolled out to meet those, but while WiMAX 2 was approved in 2010, I don't know if LTE Advanced ever demonstrated sufficient download speed to qualify.

And before that you had the whole GSM vs CDMA silliness.


Not much different now, phones for one carrier aren't compatible with another with 4G any more than they were with GSM and CDMA (though at least I get to have a SIM card now). Both Verizon and AT&T use part of the 700MHz spectrum, AT&T from 704-746 and Verizon from 756-777. I wish I knew more about this, because I'm curious why no manufacturer makes a phone that can connect to both carriers. Is it a technical restriction or one imposed by the carriers themselves?
 
2017-02-28 4:26:40 PM  
Sorry but whoever gets their standard accepted by the EU is the winner. There will be a single interoperable standard across the whole of the bloc which realistically means every other European nation, African nation and most of Asia will be using the same standard.

AT&T will probably go with whatever the EU decides so it will only be the CDMA carriers who might go out on their own again. And practically every CDMA carrier got burned outside of Verizon and Japanese carriers.

China is a wildcard I suppose.
 
2017-02-28 4:26:54 PM  

Mikey1969: You mean superior quality, but a victim of format wars?


No, he means that one system will be the first to be used for porn and that will become the winning system regardless of quality.
 
2017-02-28 4:34:52 PM  

timujin: Mad_Radhu: timujin: Same thing happened with 4G. Six years passed between when the initial concepts for 4G were laid down and an actual standard was finalized. In the meantime, there were technologies claiming to be 4G. Sprint dumped everything into WiMAX, which had actually been kicked off before 4G. Verizon and AT&T snatched up most of the 700MHz bandwidth that used to be used for television and worked on separate LTE networks. Neither WiMAX nor LTE are true 4G networks, they don't meet IMT-Advanced (the technical name for 4G) standards. LTE Advanced and WiMAX 2 were rolled out to meet those, but while WiMAX 2 was approved in 2010, I don't know if LTE Advanced ever demonstrated sufficient download speed to qualify.

And before that you had the whole GSM vs CDMA silliness.

Not much different now, phones for one carrier aren't compatible with another with 4G any more than they were with GSM and CDMA (though at least I get to have a SIM card now). Both Verizon and AT&T use part of the 700MHz spectrum, AT&T from 704-746 and Verizon from 756-777. I wish I knew more about this, because I'm curious why no manufacturer makes a phone that can connect to both carriers. Is it a technical restriction or one imposed by the carriers themselves?


Not really true. The iPhone 6 and 6S models would work between carriers. I had an iPhone 6 Plus that my wife bought from T-Mobile, and she unlocked it and gave it to me, and I was able to pop in Verizon and AT&T SIMs and the phone would instantly update the settings to get it working on the new carrier. The 7 doesn't have the same cross compatibility because they used a new LTE chipset in the phones.

There's also the unlocked Motoroloa phones like the Moto G that will work on any US carrier:

https://www.motorola.com/us/no-contract-unlocked
 
2017-02-28 4:42:59 PM  

Mad_Radhu: timujin: Mad_Radhu: timujin: Same thing happened with 4G. Six years passed between when the initial concepts for 4G were laid down and an actual standard was finalized. In the meantime, there were technologies claiming to be 4G. Sprint dumped everything into WiMAX, which had actually been kicked off before 4G. Verizon and AT&T snatched up most of the 700MHz bandwidth that used to be used for television and worked on separate LTE networks. Neither WiMAX nor LTE are true 4G networks, they don't meet IMT-Advanced (the technical name for 4G) standards. LTE Advanced and WiMAX 2 were rolled out to meet those, but while WiMAX 2 was approved in 2010, I don't know if LTE Advanced ever demonstrated sufficient download speed to qualify.

And before that you had the whole GSM vs CDMA silliness.

Not much different now, phones for one carrier aren't compatible with another with 4G any more than they were with GSM and CDMA (though at least I get to have a SIM card now). Both Verizon and AT&T use part of the 700MHz spectrum, AT&T from 704-746 and Verizon from 756-777. I wish I knew more about this, because I'm curious why no manufacturer makes a phone that can connect to both carriers. Is it a technical restriction or one imposed by the carriers themselves?

Not really true. The iPhone 6 and 6S models would work between carriers. I had an iPhone 6 Plus that my wife bought from T-Mobile, and she unlocked it and gave it to me, and I was able to pop in Verizon and AT&T SIMs and the phone would instantly update the settings to get it working on the new carrier. The 7 doesn't have the same cross compatibility because they used a new LTE chipset in the phones.

There's also the unlocked Motoroloa phones like the Moto G that will work on any US carrier:

https://www.motorola.com/us/no-contract-unlocked


Very cool, that was a start to answering my question and a little googling filled in the rest. So the answer is that there are manufacturers that make "world phones" that can connect to any carrier, but they're locked when you purchase them. You can unlock them yourself, at least the Android ones, or get your carrier to unlock them. I learnded somethin on the Farks.

/also, I found out that while AT&T and T-Mobile iPhone 7's aren't compatible with Verizon and Sprint, the opposite is, well, the opposite. If you buy your iPhone from either of the latter carriers, you can use it on any network, including those of most other countries with the exception of China Mobile and possibly Japanese networks
 
2017-02-28 4:55:25 PM  
Is betamax a good thing or a bad thing?  Because it was a good VCR, superior in video quality, but a failed product due to length.
 
2017-02-28 4:57:19 PM  

timujin: Very cool, that was a start to answering my question and a little googling filled in the rest. So the answer is that there are manufacturers that make "world phones" that can connect to any carrier, but they're locked when you purchase them. You can unlock them yourself, at least the Android ones, or get your carrier to unlock them.


You can buy just about any phone unlocked to begin with. My primary phone is an iPhone 7 with Intel modem - so no VZW for me - but I also have a Nexus 5X on Project Fi which will (somewhat) seamlessly switch between Sprint (LTE/CDMA), US Cellular (LTE/CDMA), and T-Mobile (LTE/HSPA/GSM) domestically and their associated roaming partners (Verizon and ATT) where available without having to switch SIMs or reboot the phone. Technology wise, Fi is really freaking awesome - but pricing is not comparable to the new unlimited plans being offered by everyone.

Going off an doing something dumb now that we at least got everyone to agree on LTE would be painful. Sure we all use different frequencies but that can be fixed and more or less has been.
 
2017-02-28 7:03:36 PM  

timujin: Very cool, that was a start to answering my question and a little googling filled in the rest. So the answer is that there are manufacturers that make "world phones" that can connect to any carrier, but they're locked when you purchase them. You can unlock them yourself, at least the Android ones, or get your carrier to unlock them. I learnded somethin on the Farks.


The terminology can get a little messy.

Historically, "world" phones were those which supported both European bands in addition to a carrier's own domestic bands.  Other domestic bands might not be supported, even with the SIM-lock removed, because the bands are either locked down via firmware or because the baseband chip doesn't support them.

There are some "carrier unbranded" or "unlocked" phones (not to be confused with carrier-specific phones with their SIM-lock removed) that support multiple carriers' domestic bands in addition to European bands.  Just keep in mind that some advanced features such as voice-over-LTE may not be supported.

Some models released for the Canadian and Caribbean markets are basically carrier unbranded models with a carrier SIM-lock.  My Galaxy S5 Neo is a Canadian variant that was originally SIM-locked to Rogers, but is now used with an American carrier.  It supports every GSM, UMTS, and LTE band used by AT&T, and T-Mobile.  It even supports Verizon's LTE bands.  If Samsung ever enabled VoLTE for it, I could theoretically roam onto Verizon's network for both voice and data.
 
2017-02-28 7:06:57 PM  
Any wireless carrier based service over a 300 Mbs down, 1500Mbs up,  and a ping under 25ms?
 
2017-02-28 7:51:41 PM  

timujin: Mad_Radhu: timujin: Mad_Radhu: timujin: Same thing happened with 4G. Six years passed between when the initial concepts for 4G were laid down and an actual standard was finalized. In the meantime, there were technologies claiming to be 4G. Sprint dumped everything into WiMAX, which had actually been kicked off before 4G. Verizon and AT&T snatched up most of the 700MHz bandwidth that used to be used for television and worked on separate LTE networks. Neither WiMAX nor LTE are true 4G networks, they don't meet IMT-Advanced (the technical name for 4G) standards. LTE Advanced and WiMAX 2 were rolled out to meet those, but while WiMAX 2 was approved in 2010, I don't know if LTE Advanced ever demonstrated sufficient download speed to qualify.

And before that you had the whole GSM vs CDMA silliness.

Not much different now, phones for one carrier aren't compatible with another with 4G any more than they were with GSM and CDMA (though at least I get to have a SIM card now). Both Verizon and AT&T use part of the 700MHz spectrum, AT&T from 704-746 and Verizon from 756-777. I wish I knew more about this, because I'm curious why no manufacturer makes a phone that can connect to both carriers. Is it a technical restriction or one imposed by the carriers themselves?

Not really true. The iPhone 6 and 6S models would work between carriers. I had an iPhone 6 Plus that my wife bought from T-Mobile, and she unlocked it and gave it to me, and I was able to pop in Verizon and AT&T SIMs and the phone would instantly update the settings to get it working on the new carrier. The 7 doesn't have the same cross compatibility because they used a new LTE chipset in the phones.

There's also the unlocked Motoroloa phones like the Moto G that will work on any US carrier:

https://www.motorola.com/us/no-contract-unlocked

Very cool, that was a start to answering my question and a little googling filled in the rest. So the answer is that there are manufacturers that make "world phones" that can connect to any carrier, but they're locked when you purchase them. You can unlock them yourself, at least the Android ones, or get your carrier to unlock them. I learnded somethin on the Farks.

/also, I found out that while AT&T and T-Mobile iPhone 7's aren't compatible with Verizon and Sprint, the opposite is, well, the opposite. If you buy your iPhone from either of the latter carriers, you can use it on any network, including those of most other countries with the exception of China Mobile and possibly Japanese networks


The carriers have long tried to make the phone manufacturers their biatch. In between my iPhone 4 and my current iPhone 6s, I had a Samsung galaxy S3 on Sprint. It was an LTE phone, but the Sprint version had what amounted to a Sprint-specific virtual SIM soldered to the board. They sold it as a "world phone," but what they meant by that was " it will work on our partner carriers' networks overseas at exorbitant rates." The same phone from other carriers had a SIM slot and a replaceable SIM. My wife's phone, also with Sprint, and also an LTE phone, had a separate SIM, which she switched out with a Greek carrier's SIM when we went there. Apple, however, has never played the "do what the carriers want" game. They don't allow the carriers to stick bloatware on the phone, and starting (I think) with the iPhone 5, all versions were the same, with CDMA, GSM, and LTE radios on board
 
2017-02-28 8:34:45 PM  

Greek: timujin: Mad_Radhu: timujin: Mad_Radhu: timujin: Same thing happened with 4G. Six years passed between when the initial concepts for 4G were laid down and an actual standard was finalized. In the meantime, there were technologies claiming to be 4G. Sprint dumped everything into WiMAX, which had actually been kicked off before 4G. Verizon and AT&T snatched up most of the 700MHz bandwidth that used to be used for television and worked on separate LTE networks. Neither WiMAX nor LTE are true 4G networks, they don't meet IMT-Advanced (the technical name for 4G) standards. LTE Advanced and WiMAX 2 were rolled out to meet those, but while WiMAX 2 was approved in 2010, I don't know if LTE Advanced ever demonstrated sufficient download speed to qualify.

And before that you had the whole GSM vs CDMA silliness.

Not much different now, phones for one carrier aren't compatible with another with 4G any more than they were with GSM and CDMA (though at least I get to have a SIM card now). Both Verizon and AT&T use part of the 700MHz spectrum, AT&T from 704-746 and Verizon from 756-777. I wish I knew more about this, because I'm curious why no manufacturer makes a phone that can connect to both carriers. Is it a technical restriction or one imposed by the carriers themselves?

Not really true. The iPhone 6 and 6S models would work between carriers. I had an iPhone 6 Plus that my wife bought from T-Mobile, and she unlocked it and gave it to me, and I was able to pop in Verizon and AT&T SIMs and the phone would instantly update the settings to get it working on the new carrier. The 7 doesn't have the same cross compatibility because they used a new LTE chipset in the phones.

There's also the unlocked Motoroloa phones like the Moto G that will work on any US carrier:

https://www.motorola.com/us/no-contract-unlocked

Very cool, that was a start to answering my question and a little googling filled in the rest. So the answer is that there are manufacturers that make "world phones" that can connect to any carrier, but they're locked when you purchase them. You can unlock them yourself, at least the Android ones, or get your carrier to unlock them. I learnded somethin on the Farks.

/also, I found out that while AT&T and T-Mobile iPhone 7's aren't compatible with Verizon and Sprint, the opposite is, well, the opposite. If you buy your iPhone from either of the latter carriers, you can use it on any network, including those of most other countries with the exception of China Mobile and possibly Japanese networks

The carriers have long tried to make the phone manufacturers their biatch. In between my iPhone 4 and my current iPhone 6s, I had a Samsung galaxy S3 on Sprint. It was an LTE phone, but the Sprint version had what amounted to a Sprint-specific virtual SIM soldered to the board. They sold it as a "world phone," but what they meant by that was " it will work on our partner carriers' networks overseas at exorbitant rates." The same phone from other carriers had a SIM slot and a replaceable SIM. My wife's phone, also with Sprint, and also an LTE phone, had a separate SIM, which she switched out with a Greek carrier's SIM when we went there. Apple, however, has never played the "do what the carriers want" game. They don't allow the carriers to stick bloatware on the phone, and starting (I think) with the iPhone 5, all versions were the same, with CDMA, GSM, and LTE radios on board


Apple also has a program where you can buy an unlocked phone directly from them and you pay a monthly payment at 0% interest with AppleCare rolled into the payment. They are completely bypassing the traditional model of buying your phone at the carrier store.
 
2017-02-28 8:41:03 PM  

Mikey1969: You mean superior quality, but a victim of format wars?


Lessons learned from the format wars:  Encourage porn to be distributed on it.

/worked for VHS
/and DVD-A
 
2017-02-28 9:34:56 PM  

drjekel_mrhyde: Any wireless carrier based service over a 300Mbs down, 1500Mbs up,  and a ping under 25ms?


FTFM
 
2017-03-01 5:14:54 AM  

timujin: So the answer is that there are manufacturers that make "world phones" that can connect to any carrier, but they're locked when you purchase them.


Phones bought direct from Motorola and Google are not locked.
 
2017-03-01 5:26:50 AM  

jaytkay: timujin: So the answer is that there are manufacturers that make "world phones" that can connect to any carrier, but they're locked when you purchase them.

Phones bought direct from Motorola and Google are not locked.


Yeah, that makes sense. I should have specified they're locked when you purchase one from a carrier
 
2017-03-01 11:04:33 AM  

timujin: Mad_Radhu: timujin: Same thing happened with 4G. Six years passed between when the initial concepts for 4G were laid down and an actual standard was finalized. In the meantime, there were technologies claiming to be 4G. Sprint dumped everything into WiMAX, which had actually been kicked off before 4G. Verizon and AT&T snatched up most of the 700MHz bandwidth that used to be used for television and worked on separate LTE networks. Neither WiMAX nor LTE are true 4G networks, they don't meet IMT-Advanced (the technical name for 4G) standards. LTE Advanced and WiMAX 2 were rolled out to meet those, but while WiMAX 2 was approved in 2010, I don't know if LTE Advanced ever demonstrated sufficient download speed to qualify.

And before that you had the whole GSM vs CDMA silliness.

Not much different now, phones for one carrier aren't compatible with another with 4G any more than they were with GSM and CDMA (though at least I get to have a SIM card now). Both Verizon and AT&T use part of the 700MHz spectrum, AT&T from 704-746 and Verizon from 756-777. I wish I knew more about this, because I'm curious why no manufacturer makes a phone that can connect to both carriers. Is it a technical restriction or one imposed by the carriers themselves?


Modern smartphones can connect to both AT&T and Verizon seamlessly for data just by plugging in a SIM.
Voice will also work, but the carrier has to do something in billing.
Right now there are plenty of AT&T iPhones running on Verizon
 
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