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(Yahoo)   Aristide confirms the U.S. forced him out   ( divider line
    More: Followup  
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15617 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Mar 2004 at 4:01 AM (14 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»

297 Comments     (+0 »)

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2004-03-02 07:46:50 AM  
If only the warpigs were as good at overthrowing their own Leaders as they are at deposing every uncooperative tin pot tyrant in the world.
2004-03-02 07:48:57 AM  
Fine. If we abducted him or even if we didn't, send a team to drag his ass back to Haiti and drop him off back at his presidential palace. Let his countrymen decide whether they want to hang him, shoot him, eat him, or hang a burning tire around his neck or do whatever. Let Jesse Jackoff and the congressional black caucus go restore order with their "brother" and show them what's what.

fark! You just can't please some people.
2004-03-02 07:50:34 AM  
Aristide is French for "loser".
2004-03-02 07:54:15 AM  
Haiti is like a nation of children. Everybody running around with no nothing to do, waving their hands, going 'buh' 'buh' 'buh', painting their houses in all wacky colors and shiat.

It's like those kids in "Thunderdome" trying to run a country.
2004-03-02 07:57:04 AM  
Bush haters love America. Bush lovers hate America.

That is all.
2004-03-02 08:05:34 AM  
Should have an "idiot" tag. Why would ANYONE believe what that moron Aristide says. This time the US got international support and we are still getting biatched out. WTF? Liberals can't have it both ways.

If Aristide is complaining that he was kidnapped, fly him back to "his people", withdraw US troops and let "his people" decide what to do with him. Oh yeah, can't do that because the liberals wouldn't like that either.

It will be fun if Kerry wins in November because he will get to be biatched at about everything he does and doesn't do. His idea on Haiti was to NOT get international support and just go in; just the opposite of what he said President Bush should have done in Iraq. Typical for John "Lurch" Kerry.
2004-03-02 08:08:52 AM  
"Why would we immediately support an armed overthrow and not support a constitutionally elected government?" Jackson said.

This is the critical question in all of this. There are quite a few conflicting reports regarding just how "popular" the uprising is, especially with the appearance of several people involved with previous coups and army death squads among the rebels. I don't think these fun folks will be establishing the world's first stable anarchy, and I fear much worse is on the way, but here's hoping the blood stops flowing real soon now.

I imagine the rebels could have scored many of their weapons from police stations, and the group that initially started fighting was reportedly once allied with Aristide until its leader got popped. I'm waiting to hear from some local Haitians before passing judgement on this, but something reeks about the whole thing.
2004-03-02 08:13:08 AM  
gotta love wikipedia -- it's already updated as of yesterday's news. take that encyclopedia brittanica!
2004-03-02 08:18:39 AM  
Word is that Aristide wants to eventually settle in South Africa. Thabo Mbeki's government has not officially offered asylum yet, but the details are being worked out.
2004-03-02 08:19:42 AM  
People say Bush-Hater like it's a BAD thing.

For those of you in the USA who are concerned about the way the world pecieves you - there is a very easy solution. Get Rid Of George W.

We don't hate you guys. We just hate him.
2004-03-02 08:22:29 AM  
2004-03-02 08:23:33 AM  

Stop right there. The only way I can function in the morning is by replacing my blood with coffee.
2004-03-02 08:24:17 AM  
Jesse Jackson = racist and sensationalist (i.e. will lie for publicity).
2004-03-02 08:27:43 AM  
Clearly, President Bush believes there's oil in Haiti.
2004-03-02 08:31:32 AM  
This guy's an ass, next Haitian dictator, please?

Those firefighters forced me out of my burning house!
/I got nothin'
2004-03-02 08:32:12 AM  

"Why would we immediately support an armed overthrow and not support a constitutionally elected government?" Jackson said.

You're absolutely right, that is the critical question of all this. I cannot fathom why our government thinks it's O.K. to basically facilitate an armed takeover of a democratic country. Aren't we supposed to be all about the rule of law and not what is essentially the rule of armed thugs.

If you guys think Bush is such a dictator, or a fascist, then why not grow a pair and fight the dictatorship???

You can't wait until Nov! After all, in dictatorships you cannot vote!

What the hell does that have to do with anything in this thread? You need to re-adjust your tinfoil hat buddy. We're talking about foreign policy here. I seriously doubt thats something the "Mayberry Machiavellian" really understands. The actions in Haiti are just another "Oops" in a long line of gutless decisions by our leaders both the (R)'s and the (D)'s.

Just remember, Bush haters -- Kerry said he'd have acted unilaterally and sent in the Marines earlier.

Bush consulted France, Canada and the UN and acted according to the resulting consensus. In other words, leftists, you got exactly what you've been asking for. So now you now have two choices: 1) STFU, or 2) keep whining, reminding us what huge assholes you are.

First of all, get your arguments straight. Your much feared "Liberals" are generally pro-interventionist. Remember Clinton and how he was hounded for playing "world cop"? Secondly, this thread isn't so much about if we should have gone into Haiti, but what we should have done when we got there. Thirdly, on Feb 29th the U.N. agreed to send in Peace Keepers, NOT TO REMOVE THE PRESIDENT OF HAITI FROM POWER.

That was purely our (U.S.) own iniative.

I totally think that we started off this little round of playing "fireman" pretty good. A) Sent State Dept. Big wigs to investigate, B) Went to the U.N., C) Got a peace keeping mission, D) Undermined the constitional government of Haiti.... "WHOOPS!".

Rule of Law means exactly that. You have laws, you rule by them. We as Americans enjoy the stability and prosperity that comes from this concept. I personally think its fine! My problem is when our government interprets Rule of Law as not applying to any other farking country on the planet.

Seriously, how hard would it have been to put Mr. Asshat Aristide under "house arrest" for his "own protection" and then arrainged some sort of U.N. Monitored election? Now we have essentially the Haiti police force disbanded, their government in disarray and armed groups of militia lead by ex-coup junta leaders running amok.

clap, clap

Good job there us!

Personally if it was up to me I would have let the French take this one on the chin since most of Haiti's farked-upness is (atleast I believe) mostly their fault.

2004-03-02 08:35:36 AM  
Oh and on the whole Jesse Jackson thing, the dude said this:

Why would we immediately support an armed overthrow and not support a constitutionally elected government?" Jackson said.

Now, if you're like me, you're probably thinking. How can our government screw something up to the point where it makes Jesse Farking Jackson sound statesmen-like.

If anything, that should be a sign that we just goofed.
2004-03-02 08:36:18 AM  
Yes Aristide the idiot who asked France and the US to intervene. France , whom Arisitde had sued for reparations and the US whom he had blamed of trying to rig the 2000 elections (under Clinton you Bush Haters).

So anyway this idiot asks for help from the two countries most likely to want him dead. I think Aristide got off lightly.

HRW on Haiti 2000
2004-03-02 08:36:52 AM  
One question, why would Aristide lie about this? Exactly what would he gain? Nothing! He already knew he was going to have to step down. Seems GWB & Co. guaranteed it.

GWB Administration - stepping on sovereign nations since 2001

/ABB '04
2004-03-02 08:39:25 AM  
So let me get this straight reveal101. You don't care?
2004-03-02 08:44:21 AM  
"NOT TO REMOVE THE PRESIDENT OF HAITI FROM POWER. That was purely our (U.S.) own iniative."

Actually France "lead the calls" for him to step down.
2004-03-02 08:47:22 AM  
Why does it matter whether the U.S. is involved? If we hadn't taken him out, his enemies would have done so, only in not so nice a fashion. Besides, this is a multi-national force. Where is the French blame?
2004-03-02 08:50:56 AM  
Aristide and Jesse Jackson. Yeah--good thing there's nothign about thir reputation to make one doubt them!

suebhoney, it's ok not to like Bush, but taking it to the point you can't even see the obvious...extremism at either end of the political spectrum is bad dear. Relax. This isn't the overthrow of a government. the government was already done for, we just gave the guya plane ride to save his but, and reduce any last stand theatrics/fighting. No a new leader of the people can be chosen, and begin in the fine tradiiton of begging for money, installing a corrupt government, and we can recycle all these headlines in about 5 to 10 years.

It's really hard to care about this, in anything other than a vague amused fashion.
2004-03-02 08:51:35 AM  
Probably the right thing to do, but if true, the Whitehouse lied yesterday. Much more relevent, much less likely to bother you.
2004-03-02 08:53:05 AM  
[One question, why would Aristide lie about this?]

suebe -- it's been explained several times for the benefit of short-bus Farkers. Has to do with saving face.

Hope that helps.
2004-03-02 08:53:39 AM  
2004-03-02 08:54:08 AM  
incrdbl: I happen to go on what I've seen/heard from our current Admin. and this is something I just wouldn't put past them. The proof is in their actions.

/hating Bush since 1999 :)
2004-03-02 08:55:04 AM  
Actually France "lead the calls" for him to step down.

Like since when does anyone think that the French government is anything but self serving wankers themselves? The point is, removing Aristide wasn't part of the U.N. mandate for the Peace Keeping force.

I'm not surprised they'd want him to step down. I'm not surprised any country would want him out of there. It's obviously the most politically expediant solution for the fiasco, but in the end it doesn't really solve anything.

In my opinion elected officials should be removed legally. I don't particularly like our current president but I would be damn pissed if we had a coup, or even worse a foreign power remove him. Even if it was the ghosts of Kennedy and F.D.R. themselves that rose from the grave to become our benevolent undead rulers, I still wouldn't have any part of it.

We have a constitution, we use it. Haiti has a constitution, like a good democracy they ought to use it too. If they refuse to use it like a bunch of infants then either they should be left to suffer their own folly, or we could be good guys and smack them on the ass, hold a free election and send them on their way.

Essentially what we did was legitimize this Guy Philippe asshat as the defacto "ruler" of Haiti by removing, atleast physically his opposition. Well, actually the situtation is more complicated than that, but suffice it to say that the real opposition to Aristide has basically been run over by Guy Philippe and his "oh-so-manly" group of militia dorks.

So basically we have:
1) Elected ruler forced to leave country.
2) "Loyal Opposition" party sidelined as politically irrelevant.
3) Smelly marxist dictator in making national hero of Haiti.

Um... Yippie?

2004-03-02 08:58:21 AM  
Okay, U.S. doesn't intervene. Rebels besiege Port-au-Prince, Aristide fulfills his Feb. 19 vow to die before ever leaving Haiti. Thousands die, Jesse Jackson releases blistering speech blaming the U.S. for not stopping the bloodshed when it had the chance. Congressional Black Caucus, incensed, calls Bush a racist for not caring if the population of a nation founded by slaves dies.

And as far Aristide being constitutionally elected, the 2000 elections in Haiti had more voter fraud than the 1960 election that JFK won.
2004-03-02 08:59:56 AM  
TwistedFark - you raise some good points.
2004-03-02 09:00:13 AM  
And as far Aristide being constitutionally elected, the 2000 elections in Haiti had more voter fraud than the 1960 election that JFK won.

But did it have more voter fraud than the 2000 election that Bush stole?

2004-03-02 09:00:31 AM  
If this guy is looking for American pulbic sentiment to sway so far in his favor that the government has to re-install him, then he's in for a hell of a disappointment.
2004-03-02 09:00:59 AM  
suebhoney asks:

One question, why would Aristide lie about this? Exactly what would he gain? Nothing!

Actually he gains sympathy from his supporters in the U.S., in particular certain members of Congress. Perhaps he also hopes (misguidedly) that they will be able to pressure the administration into giving him a better "golden parachute" now he's out of power.

He already knew he was going to have to step down. Seems GWB & Co. guaranteed it.

The fact that the Marines showed up...and protected the embassy, not the Presidential Palace, pretty much sealed the deal. He got the option to leave said Presidential Palace in something other than a body bag, and now he is showing ingratitude. Is this endemic to French-speaking countries or is it just me?

GWB Administration - stepping on sovereign nations since 2001

If this were kindergarten, perhaps we'd be putting GWB in time out or even getting him to a child psychologist.

Sorry, this is international politics. Screw your buddy while giving your enemy a hand job. It's messy, dirty, back-biting, and primarily self-interest driven. On a good day you get to do something that looks like you were motivated by something other than farking someone over. If you want people to always play nice, go back to kindergarten.

2004-03-02 09:04:55 AM  
Pocket Ninja

Payback's a biatch, ain't it? I'd say it comes out 1-1, even steven.
2004-03-02 09:06:00 AM  
We should have stayed out of it and let it take its natural course.

The less poor brown people in this hemisphere, the better.
2004-03-02 09:06:03 AM  
Whats the big deal? Take him back, let his country deal with him.
2004-03-02 09:13:57 AM  
OK, maybe he's right. Put him back.
2004-03-02 09:14:40 AM  

"They were telling me that if I don't leave they would start shooting, and be killing in a matter of time,"

Umm... Americans never left the airport. So let me get this straight, you drove yourself to the airport where my tax money saved your life and now you're saying you were "kidnapped"?

Aristide described the agents as "good, warm, nice," but added that he had no rights during his 20-hour flight to Africa.

Welcome to flying in the 21st century. None of us have rights in a plane.

Jesse Jackson...California's Maxine Waters and New York's Charles Rangel...

Oh yeah, there's no axe to grind here.

"Why would we immediately support an armed overthrow and not support a constitutionally elected government?" Jackson said.

Here's a better question: How did a former preacher end up being the richest person in Haiti? (I'm talking about Aristide, not Jackson, although it would work either way)
2004-03-02 09:14:53 AM  
Considering how Powell categorically denied we forced him out it would make either former President Aristide or Secretary of State Powell a liar.

Let's put it to a vote at the UN to see who they feel is telling the truth.
2004-03-02 09:15:15 AM  
This guy is pretty clueless. If he had to have someone force him to leave his country when his constituants are ready to rip his head off, he obviously isn't to aware of the state of things.

It's unfortunate to see Haiti have another coup, but at least it's been bloodless, thus far.
2004-03-02 09:16:41 AM  
Uh... is anyone still arguing that we shouldn't have gone into Haiti? I mean... what was the point then of getting the U.N. mission?

You need to lay off the doomsday kool-aid. No more people were going to die than are already going to die. The U.N. has troops arriving as we speak. We got there first, well because we are closer, thats all.

We could have sat on our butts and it would be the French getting all the crappy press right now instead of us, and frankly the people of Haiti would be no worse off or less. But thats neither here nor there.

And yes, there was voter fraud in the 2000 Haiti elections, but if you were more informed you would know the following:

1) Aristide ran practically unopposed for President because for some reason Haitians think its better to protest their elections than actually run opposition canidates.

2) Most of the fraud was centered around Senate seats won by the Lavalas party.

3) At the time of his re-election he was undisputably the most popular politican in his country. Claiming that he needed to tamper with election results to retain his grip on power is like saying you couldn't win a popularity contest with no challenger and the entire voting population consisted of your relatives.

But essentially, those elections were the matchstick for the impending shiatstorm that came down on Haiti over the last couple of years.

Fact is, the fark-tards did vote for him. They made a mistake, but is that any excuse for our country to come in and just arbitrarily make decisions about whos going to be their elected leader? At the very least we could have worked with the U.N. to set up some elections, I mean... we could have even stuck the French with the bill. How sweet is that?

2004-03-02 09:16:45 AM  
They should have just shot the idiot.

ungrateful prick.
2004-03-02 09:19:19 AM  
I thought it was the rebels armed with weapons bought from the US forced him out..


He needed to leave, but I don't think the rebels are going to be the best replacement either.
2004-03-02 09:19:51 AM  
For those of you in the USA who are concerned about the way the world pecieves you - there is a very easy solution. Get Rid Of George W.

We don't hate you guys. We just hate him

Oh no! Some peeps around the world hate our President! Oh! The humanity!

I guess if we truly cared more about world opinion more than taking care of our own people, we'd just shoot ourselves and get it over with.

Shame only works when one feels that they have something to be ashamed about. Really though, we didn't get to be the world's economic and military superpower by making ourselves emotionally codependent on the feelings of second-rate nations, at least most of us didn't.

I'd rather be the United States and have to listen to the incessent whining of the runner-ups, than be the runner-up. Heck, anyone can be a runner-up, especially when the runner-up is a far distant second.
2004-03-02 09:21:48 AM  

[image from too old to be available]
2004-03-02 09:22:07 AM  
ahhhhh, when is skynet going to get here and blow everything up?
I'm sick of the corruption everywhere.
[image from too old to be available]
2004-03-02 09:24:09 AM  
Tinian: I thought I saw you on the bus this morning.

BTW, they were only questions, and no one said YOU had to answer them. And, since your best rhetoric is insulting people, I leave you to it.

/ignore is my friend
2004-03-02 09:25:11 AM  
So all of this happened because of fraudulent elections in 2000? I guess Haitians must care more about democracy than Americans do, because I don't see anyone storming Washington, nor do I see Canadian soliders kidnapping Bush and sending him off to Africa. Wouldn't that be something though?
2004-03-02 09:26:19 AM  
hdhale: thanks for the intelligent post (unlike others). As for the kindergarten remark, though, see you in class, sweetie :)
2004-03-02 09:30:09 AM  

You were on a roll until you got to:
Here's a better question: How did a former preacher end up being the richest person in Haiti? (I'm talking about Aristide, not Jackson, although it would work either way)

This whole thing isn't about Aristide. I personally think he's a craptacular asshat. The point is actually what Jesse Jackson said. Why is it ok for us to remove this guy? If I was President Bush I would have had either the French or the Canadians fly his ass out of there to even remove the appearance that anything this asshat says about us kidnapping him has a shred of truth to it. But honestly, this is not the kind of subtleness I've come to expect from our government these days.

The "correct" (or atleast how us farkers who get all hot for concepts like democracy and rule of law) way to handle this situation would have been:

1) Re-instate the Hatian parliment.
2) Hold elections for said parliment.
3) Let the parliment elect their prime minister.
4) Hold presidental elections.

Now if Aristide is in Miami or hiding in a closet in Haiti, I don't really care. The thing I care about is that this was seen as a "quick fix" to the situation and as a result we've basically made the asshats that we definately do not want running Haiti look like a bunch of victors and we look like some unscrupulous farks.

Like I said before, we should have stuck this one to the French but good. I wonder if the administration was just so eager to prove it could do something on the global stage that actually "worked" that they neglected to think about the long term ramifications of the situtation.. especially in an election year.

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