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(Guardian)   The NSA "reform" bill is actually more of an NSA "business as usual" bill   (theguardian.com) divider line
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568 clicks; posted to Politics » on 22 May 2014 at 2:23 PM (6 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2014-05-22 12:26:29 PM  
Wait...you mean the NSA still tracks foreign communications and yourignorant world view that spying is immoral leads to people being killed?!
 
2014-05-22 12:45:01 PM  
This is my shocked face.

The idea that a nation state would disclose or suspend intelligence operations is kind of hilarious.
 
2014-05-22 1:03:04 PM  
I'm shocked in space
treknews.netView Full Size
 
2014-05-22 1:15:37 PM  
It would be quite hilarious to see Congress present Obama with a real reform bill with no strings attached.

We haven't seen this few presidential vetoes since that Lincoln guy.
 
2014-05-22 2:30:07 PM  
Why is UK news being used to tell us Yanks what's going on?

Is it because Kardashians or something?
 
2014-05-22 2:30:52 PM  
Anyone who voted for Obama is a chump.  Anyone who voted for Romney or McCain is also a chump, just so I'm not playing favorites.
 
2014-05-22 2:34:58 PM  

MattStafford: Anyone who voted for Obama is a chump.  Anyone who voted for Romney or McCain is also a chump, just so I'm not playing favorites.


The only winning move is not to play?
 
2014-05-22 2:35:19 PM  

WTF Indeed: Wait...you mean the NSA still tracks foreign communications and yourignorant world view that spying is immoral leads to people being killed?!


What would you know about collecting foreign communications?  Ever done it?  I have.  Google "ditty bopper" to see what I used to do for the Army and the NSA.

I've got zero problems with the NSA doing it's actual *JOB*, monitoring foreign communications.  I used to be part of that myself.  What I do have a problem with is the NSA monitoring "United States Persons" without a FISA warrant.  And I include collecting metadata in that:  Today, with the ubiquity of mobile devices and the like, you can build up a very scarily accurate profile of someone based merely on who they call, when, for how long, and from where, along with all the websites you visit (because URLs are metadata), and all the people you e-mail/text/tweet/facebook/etc.
 
2014-05-22 2:35:39 PM  

unlikely: This is my shocked face.

The idea that a nation state would disclose or suspend intelligence operations is kind of hilarious.


Exactly. Oh and Fark the Guardian
 
2014-05-22 2:36:09 PM  
Who would dare vote against the "USA Freedom Act"??
 
2014-05-22 2:36:25 PM  

redmid17: MattStafford: Anyone who voted for Obama is a chump.  Anyone who voted for Romney or McCain is also a chump, just so I'm not playing favorites.

The only winning move is not to play?


Vote third party, *ANY* third party, before it becomes necessary to vote from the rooftops.
 
2014-05-22 2:37:25 PM  

MattStafford: Anyone who voted for Obama is a chump.  Anyone who voted for Romney or McCain is also a chump, just so I'm not playing favorites.


I didn't realize the president writes and passes bills all by themselves.

This must be how Obama has been so lawless.
 
2014-05-22 2:41:02 PM  

Fantasta Potamus: I didn't realize the president writes and passes bills all by themselves.


This might interest you, FTFA:

"But Lofgren warned on the House floor Wednesday that none of her amendments were put into order by the powerful House rules committee, which released a new version of the Freedom Act on Tuesday night that reflected substantial changes made at the insistence of the Obama administration, the NSA, and the office of the director of national intelligence."

There's no excuse for insisting that the Obama administration isn't actively involved in supporting the NSA's domestic intelligence powers.
 
2014-05-22 2:41:57 PM  

dittybopper: What I do have a problem with is the NSA monitoring "United States Persons" without a FISA warrant.


It's my understanding that the NSA--under Obama, at least--has been obtaining FISA court permission for all the things they do. But I'm not a ditty bopper, so what do I know?
 
2014-05-22 2:45:15 PM  
I wonder why that cartoon about how a bill becomes a law never showed one being gutted.
 
2014-05-22 2:46:30 PM  

GoldSpider: Fantasta Potamus: I didn't realize the president writes and passes bills all by themselves.

This might interest you, FTFA:

"But Lofgren warned on the House floor Wednesday that none of her amendments were put into order by the powerful House rules committee, which released a new version of the Freedom Act on Tuesday night that reflected substantial changes made at the insistence of the Obama administration, the NSA, and the office of the director of national intelligence."

There's no excuse for insisting that the Obama administration isn't actively involved in supporting the NSA's domestic intelligence powers.


Sure. I would presume that the poster was simply pointing out that Congress plays a central role in this process, whereas the Administration's role is more or less advisory in nature.
 
2014-05-22 2:47:14 PM  

MattStafford: Anyone who voted for Obama is a chump.  Anyone who voted for Romney or McCain is also a chump, just so I'm not playing favorites.


I voted for Coconut Island.
 
2014-05-22 2:50:39 PM  

LucklessWonder: I voted for Coconut Island.


A vote for the people!
 
2014-05-22 2:55:07 PM  

dittybopper: WTF Indeed: Wait...you mean the NSA still tracks foreign communications and yourignorant world view that spying is immoral leads to people being killed?!

What would you know about collecting foreign communications?  Ever done it?  I have.  Google "ditty bopper" to see what I used to do for the Army and the NSA.

I've got zero problems with the NSA doing it's actual *JOB*, monitoring foreign communications.  I used to be part of that myself.  What I do have a problem with is the NSA monitoring "United States Persons" without a FISA warrant.  And I include collecting metadata in that:  Today, with the ubiquity of mobile devices and the like, you can build up a very scarily accurate profile of someone based merely on who they call, when, for how long, and from where, along with all the websites you visit (because URLs are metadata), and all the people you e-mail/text/tweet/facebook/etc.


Collecting metadata saves lives, end of story. Yeah, because googling some handle on the internet is a legitimate as Putin claiming he doesn't spy on his citizens.
 
2014-05-22 2:55:56 PM  

dittybopper: redmid17: MattStafford: Anyone who voted for Obama is a chump.  Anyone who voted for Romney or McCain is also a chump, just so I'm not playing favorites.

The only winning move is not to play?

Vote third party, *ANY* third party, before it becomes necessary to vote from the rooftops.


President Jethro Tibbs, from the Anti-Mason Party, reportedly called Speaker of the House, Sagitarriut Jefferspith, of the Bull Moose Party, a "33-degree asshole." Jefferspith retorted that at least he was better than Ana Lucia Cruz-Kurimoto, Senate minority whip, of the Party for Socialism and Liberation. Ms. Cruz-Kurimoto responded by leading a party vanguard to burn down Jefferspith's office, something the BMPNC called a "despicable act of Bolshevik aggression," followed by several anti-Semitic slurs which this paper will not reprint.
 
2014-05-22 2:59:27 PM  
the libs actually believe nobody in the world has spies except for the US
 
2014-05-22 3:04:43 PM  

WTF Indeed: Wait...you mean the NSA still tracks foreign communications and yourignorant world view that spying is immoral leads to people being killed?!


WTF Indeed  [TotalFark]       (favorite: pro NSA)

Huh.  Imagine that.
 
2014-05-22 3:05:46 PM  
The "reform" bill not accomplishing anything is about as surprising as morons coming to the thread trying to claim that if anyone against domestic spying is somehow against all intelligence activities anywhere.

In case you morons can't keep up:  not surprising.

And you're morons.
 
2014-05-22 3:05:48 PM  

Wendy's Chili: FISA court


lol
 
2014-05-22 3:07:40 PM  
i.imgur.comView Full Size
 
2014-05-22 3:17:12 PM  
MattStafford:

abikejourney.comView Full Size
 
2014-05-22 3:21:05 PM  

dittybopper: WTF Indeed: Wait...you mean the NSA still tracks foreign communications and yourignorant world view that spying is immoral leads to people being killed?!

What would you know about collecting foreign communications?  Ever done it?  I have.  Google "ditty bopper" to see what I used to do for the Army and the NSA.

I've got zero problems with the NSA doing it's actual *JOB*, monitoring foreign communications.  I used to be part of that myself.  What I do have a problem with is the NSA monitoring "United States Persons" without a FISA warrant.  And I include collecting metadata in that:  Today, with the ubiquity of mobile devices and the like, you can build up a very scarily accurate profile of someone based merely on who they call, when, for how long, and from where, along with all the websites you visit (because URLs are metadata), and all the people you e-mail/text/tweet/facebook/etc.


farking spot on.

Necessary surveillance is necessary... but this whole "spy on everyone, then figure out what we need" mentality is bullshiat. Beyond that the NSA knowing about serious national security vulnerabilities to utilities, banks, and other critical infrastructure (as they did with heartbleed) but treating it as an exploitable opportunity instead of helping actually... ya know, SECURE stuff... they've lost their way... mission creep has become the mission, they've gotten to where they're doing stuff simply because they can, not because it has any legitimate purpose.
 
2014-05-22 3:21:43 PM  

sendtodave: WTF Indeed: Wait...you mean the NSA still tracks foreign communications and yourignorant world view that spying is immoral leads to people being killed?!

WTF Indeed  [TotalFark]       (favorite: pro NSA)

Huh.  Imagine that.


And your the guy who argues that China's laws against free speech are okay because everyone knows that its illegal.
 
2014-05-22 3:22:18 PM  

WTF Indeed: dittybopper: WTF Indeed: Wait...you mean the NSA still tracks foreign communications and yourignorant world view that spying is immoral leads to people being killed?!

What would you know about collecting foreign communications?  Ever done it?  I have.  Google "ditty bopper" to see what I used to do for the Army and the NSA.

I've got zero problems with the NSA doing it's actual *JOB*, monitoring foreign communications.  I used to be part of that myself.  What I do have a problem with is the NSA monitoring "United States Persons" without a FISA warrant.  And I include collecting metadata in that:  Today, with the ubiquity of mobile devices and the like, you can build up a very scarily accurate profile of someone based merely on who they call, when, for how long, and from where, along with all the websites you visit (because URLs are metadata), and all the people you e-mail/text/tweet/facebook/etc.

Collecting metadata saves lives, end of story. Yeah, because googling some handle on the internet is a legitimate as Putin claiming he doesn't spy on his citizens.


Forget it, Jake. It's Internetparanoiatown.
 
2014-05-22 3:28:03 PM  

Wendy's Chili: dittybopper: What I do have a problem with is the NSA monitoring "United States Persons" without a FISA warrant.

It's my understanding that the NSA--under Obama, at least--has been obtaining FISA court permission for all the things they do. But I'm not a ditty bopper, so what do I know?


It's my understanding that the permission is in the form of a "general warrant".  Something expressly forbidden by the Fourth Amendment:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
 
2014-05-22 3:35:15 PM  

WTF Indeed: Collecting metadata saves lives, end of story.


Nobody argues against totalitarian surveillance states because they fail to keep people safe.
 
2014-05-22 3:36:12 PM  
So the PATRIOT Act was co-sponsored by a hardliner (Sensenbrenner) who got word that the NSA is using his law to broaden its powers, so he writes another shiatty law with a shiatty stupid name to "fix" that. Lulz

NSA has good lawyers who respect the law and who care deeply about our country's security

In other words, social conservatives.
 
2014-05-22 3:39:21 PM  

UrukHaiGuyz: WTF Indeed: Collecting metadata saves lives, end of story.

Nobody argues against totalitarian surveillance states because they fail to keep people safe.


If you think the US is totalitarian surveillance state because they collect metadata, than you obviously have no idea what that even means. If you want to see a real spy state go to Russia, China, or Great Britain.
 
2014-05-22 3:40:32 PM  
Or hell, go to France. The French have had the most aggressive spy program in the west for decades.
 
2014-05-22 3:42:06 PM  
No matter what they could of done it would been labeled as "They didn't do enough!".

Most of it seems look a good compromise. They could do much of what this allows pre-Patriot Act.
 
2014-05-22 3:43:40 PM  
No


Strings


Attached.


makes the spying business fun!!
 
2014-05-22 3:43:58 PM  

GoldSpider: There's no excuse for insisting that the Obama administration isn't actively involved in supporting the NSA's domestic intelligence powers.


So he want's changes which to you means he supports things as it is?

[confused dog.jpg]
 
2014-05-22 3:44:10 PM  

WTF Indeed: UrukHaiGuyz: WTF Indeed: Collecting metadata saves lives, end of story.

Nobody argues against totalitarian surveillance states because they fail to keep people safe.

If you think the US is totalitarian surveillance state because they collect metadata, than you obviously have no idea what that even means. If you want to see a real spy state go to Russia, China, or Great Britain.


I didn't say we were, I just feel that recent NSA behavior is trending disconcertingly that direction. Safety from terrorists is not nearly as valid a concern based on statistical risk as safety from reckless drivers, say, and no reason to mangle the 4th amendment. The cure is worse than the disease, IMO.
 
2014-05-22 3:44:28 PM  

WTF Indeed: Collecting metadata saves lives, end of story.


Certainly it would have saved a lot of British lives:

http://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2013/06/09/using-metadata-to-fi nd -paul-revere/
 
2014-05-22 3:45:08 PM  

WTF Indeed: dittybopper: WTF Indeed: Wait...you mean the NSA still tracks foreign communications and yourignorant world view that spying is immoral leads to people being killed?!

What would you know about collecting foreign communications?  Ever done it?  I have.  Google "ditty bopper" to see what I used to do for the Army and the NSA.

I've got zero problems with the NSA doing it's actual *JOB*, monitoring foreign communications.  I used to be part of that myself.  What I do have a problem with is the NSA monitoring "United States Persons" without a FISA warrant.  And I include collecting metadata in that:  Today, with the ubiquity of mobile devices and the like, you can build up a very scarily accurate profile of someone based merely on who they call, when, for how long, and from where, along with all the websites you visit (because URLs are metadata), and all the people you e-mail/text/tweet/facebook/etc.

Collecting metadata saves lives, end of story. Yeah, because googling some handle on the internet is a legitimate as Putin claiming he doesn't spy on his citizens.


Ooh, end of story? Guess that means the argument is over... the guy who doesn't understand what I can tell about you with metadata said it's over... so i guess it's over.

/lights off
//I think it's adorable that you think they only collect metadata
 
2014-05-22 3:45:35 PM  
because Freedom.

the Freedom to spy on your own citizens because the owners of your government (Big Business and the wealthy) decided it was a good idea.

they have their wealth/property/control to protect.
 
2014-05-22 3:47:47 PM  

Corvus: So he want's changes which to you means he supports things as it is?


Read the article, or at the very least the paragraph from it that I quoted.  The Obama administration insisted on changes TO THE REFORM BILL that make the reform bill essentially meaningless.
 
2014-05-22 3:50:42 PM  

WTF Indeed: If you think the US is totalitarian surveillance state because they collect metadata, than you obviously have no idea what that even means. If you want to see a real spy state go to Russia, China, or Great Britain.


So there's no merit in voicing our objections now before we become what you consider an actual totalitarian surveillance state?
 
2014-05-22 3:51:40 PM  

GoldSpider: The Obama administration insisted on changes TO THE REFORM BILL that make the reform bill essentially meaningless.


While it's true they insisted on certain changes, if you actually rtfa you find it's the Rules Committee. (=Republicans).
 
2014-05-22 3:51:54 PM  

Linux_Yes: because Freedom.

the Freedom to spy on your own citizens because the owners of your government (Big Business and the wealthy) decided it was a good idea.

they have their wealth/property/control to protect.


given that gmail openly reads the actual content of your emails and tracks every website you go to, i doubt they need the NSA's help
 
2014-05-22 3:52:06 PM  

WTF Indeed: sendtodave: WTF Indeed: Wait...you mean the NSA still tracks foreign communications and yourignorant world view that spying is immoral leads to people being killed?!

WTF Indeed  [TotalFark]       (favorite: pro NSA)

Huh.  Imagine that.

And your the guy who argues that China's laws against free speech are okay because everyone knows that its illegal.


Huh.  No, not so much?

Maybe I was drunk or something.
 
2014-05-22 4:04:19 PM  

dittybopper: Wendy's Chili: dittybopper: What I do have a problem with is the NSA monitoring "United States Persons" without a FISA warrant.

It's my understanding that the NSA--under Obama, at least--has been obtaining FISA court permission for all the things they do. But I'm not a ditty bopper, so what do I know?

It's my understanding that the permission is in the form of a "general warrant".  Something expressly forbidden by the Fourth Amendment:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


I guess what you should have said is, "What I do have a problem with is the NSA monitoring 'United States Persons' without a FISA warrant that comports with my definition of probable cause," because from my non-lawyerly point of view, the "place" and "things" criteria seem pretty easy to satisfy: Verizon data center and a list of calls made using their service.
 
2014-05-22 4:04:56 PM  

UrukHaiGuyz: WTF Indeed: UrukHaiGuyz: WTF Indeed: Collecting metadata saves lives, end of story.

Nobody argues against totalitarian surveillance states because they fail to keep people safe.

If you think the US is totalitarian surveillance state because they collect metadata, than you obviously have no idea what that even means. If you want to see a real spy state go to Russia, China, or Great Britain.

I didn't say we were, I just feel that recent NSA behavior is trending disconcertingly that direction. Safety from terrorists is not nearly as valid a concern based on statistical risk as safety from reckless drivers, say, and no reason to mangle the 4th amendment. The cure is worse than the disease, IMO.


See, here is the thing:  All substantial rights have a price in human lives.

*ALL* of them.

Some of them are easy to identify:  Second Amendment means guns are relatively common, and people die from gunshot wounds, either from suicide, homicide, or accidentally.

Some of them are less obvious:  Freedom of speech, the press, and religion mean that abhorrent, violent viewpoints can be espoused and result in the deaths of people based upon hatred:  Whites, Blacks, Jews, abortion clinic personnel, or even just innocent bystanders.

Also, we'd be much more efficient at finding murderers, rapists, and the like if we didn't have to worry about getting warrants and the like.  That requirement clearly has a cost in human lives.

So I'm not very sympathetic to the idea that violating cherished rights enshrined in the Bill of Rights is worth it because it might save some lives, because you can use that logic to essentially erase all human rights.
 
2014-05-22 4:05:46 PM  

whidbey: While it's true they insisted on certain changes, if you actually rtfa you find it's the Rules Committee. (=Republicans).


So then we're in agreement that the Obama administration and Republicans are working together to expand government power at the expense of our privacy rights.
 
2014-05-22 4:07:12 PM  

Wendy's Chili: dittybopper: Wendy's Chili: dittybopper: What I do have a problem with is the NSA monitoring "United States Persons" without a FISA warrant.

It's my understanding that the NSA--under Obama, at least--has been obtaining FISA court permission for all the things they do. But I'm not a ditty bopper, so what do I know?

It's my understanding that the permission is in the form of a "general warrant".  Something expressly forbidden by the Fourth Amendment:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I guess what you should have said is, "What I do have a problem with is the NSA monitoring 'United States Persons' without a FISA warrant that comports with my definition of probable cause," because from my non-lawyerly point of view, the "place" and "things" criteria seem pretty easy to satisfy: Verizon data center and a list of calls made using their service.


Philadelphia.  All personal correspondence.

Same difference.
 
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