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(USA Today)   "NJ family sues over under God." Hmm -- preposition trouble. Apparently they don't to be dictated to from about down out of above or something   (usatoday.com) divider line
    More: Amusing, god, American Humanist Association, Humanist associations, Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court, humanists, New Jersey, school districts  
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3269 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Apr 2014 at 9:33 AM (6 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2014-04-23 9:03:59 AM  
Morris Bishop's 'The Naughty Preposition', which was published in The New Yorker on 27 September 1947:

I lately lost a preposition;
It hid, I thought, beneath my chair
And angrily I cried, 'Perdition!
Up from out of in under there.'

Correctness is my vade mecum,
And straggling phrases I abhor,
And yet I wondered, 'What should he come
Up from out of in under for?'
 
2014-04-23 9:30:03 AM  
Here's the problem:
New Jersey Statutes - Title 18A Education - 18A:36-3 Display of and salute to flag; pledge of allegiance
18A:36-3. Display of and salute to flag; pledge of allegiance
Every board of education shall:

(a) Procure a United States flag, flagstaff and necessary appliances therefor for each school in the district and display such flag upon or near the public school building during school hours;

(b) Procure a United States flag, flagstaff and necessary appliances or standard therefor for each assembly room and each classroom in each school, and display such flag in the assembly room and each classroom during school hours and at such other time as the board of education may deem proper; and

(c) Require the pupils in each school in the district on every school day to salute the United States flag and repeat the following pledge of allegiance to the flag: "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all," which salute and pledge of allegiance shall be rendered with the right hand over the heart, except that pupils who have conscientious scruples against such pledge or salute, or are children of accredited representatives of foreign governments to whom the United States government extends diplomatic immunity, shall not be required to render such salute and pledge but shall be required to show full respect to the flag while the pledge is being given merely by standing at attention, the boys removing the headdress.


/Saying a pledge is retarded
//The addition of "under God" is worse
///Forcing kids to say a pledge is meaningless to the kids
////As a kid, I used to think it said "for WITCHES stand" and wondered what God was doing with the witches.
 
2014-04-23 9:36:22 AM  
Here we go again.......
 
2014-04-23 9:36:28 AM  

stpauler: ////As a kid, I used to think it said "for WITCHES stand" and wondered what God was doing with the witches.


media.tumblr.comView Full Size
 
2014-04-23 9:37:25 AM  
That headline makes my brain hurt.
 
2014-04-23 9:37:30 AM  
Surprised a religious group hasn't sued yet, citing blasphemy.
 
2014-04-23 9:37:46 AM  
ckckred.files.wordpress.comView Full Size


Thoroughly confused.
 
2014-04-23 9:38:21 AM  
The supreme court ruled a long time ago that you don't have to say the pledge: Barnette v. West Virginia State Board of Education
 
2014-04-23 9:38:46 AM  
Not his shiat again....
 
2014-04-23 9:39:47 AM  
What's a god?
 
2014-04-23 9:39:48 AM  
Ein Volk! Ein Reich! Ein Führer!
bizpacreview.comView Full Size
 
2014-04-23 9:39:57 AM  
I don't know. Suing the God of sports betting seems like a bad idea. The House (of God) always wins.
 
2014-04-23 9:40:50 AM  
What's the over/under on their chances of winning?
 
2014-04-23 9:40:54 AM  
ugh
 
2014-04-23 9:41:12 AM  
They should replace UNDER GOD with UNDER ALLAH. It's the same deity, no?
 
2014-04-23 9:41:34 AM  
I get all my gambling advice from The Over Under God.
 
2014-04-23 9:41:47 AM  
Hasn't this issue been asked and answered several times:

"except that pupils who have conscientious scruples against such pledge or salute "

...And of course those student's always have the option of just not saying the "under God" part, or substituting any deity they wish.

Or are the evangelistic Atheists says even being forced to hear the word "God" persecutes them?
 
2014-04-23 9:44:56 AM  

Metaluna Mutant: They should replace UNDER GOD with UNDER ALLAH. It's the same deity, no?


Not according to Christian fundies.
 
2014-04-23 9:46:23 AM  
So basically.  The person can't figure out that until the government removes Under God from the pledge where it was placed at some point.

whiny interpretation:

How dare the pledge with Under God be the official pledge for many years. Remove Under God from it in your school. I'm suing because my child doesn't know how to leave out Under god while saying the pledge.  He or she shouldn't have to think about how to do that.
 
2014-04-23 9:47:09 AM  

GDubDub: Hasn't this issue been asked and answered several times:

"except that pupils who have conscientious scruples against such pledge or salute "

...And of course those student's always have the option of just not saying the "under God" part, or substituting any deity they wish.

Or are the evangelistic Atheists says even being forced to hear the word "God" persecutes them?


You didn't RTFA.   The child wants to pledge allegiance to the flag and country - not a God that he doesn't believe in.  Not participating singles him out and creates a hostile atmosphere for the child.
The whole pledge thing is just creepy.
 
2014-04-23 9:47:18 AM  

hogans: [ckckred.files.wordpress.com image 541x367]

Thoroughly confused.


came for this.  leaving satisfied
 
2014-04-23 9:47:21 AM  

cwolf20: So basically.  The person can't figure out that until the government removes Under God from the pledge where it was placed at some point. EDIT: the school can only remove it entirely

whiny interpretation:

How dare the pledge with Under God be the official pledge for many years. Remove Under God from it in your school. I'm suing because my child doesn't know how to leave out Under god while saying the pledge.  He or she shouldn't have to think about how to do that.

 
2014-04-23 9:48:19 AM  
We need to dump the Pledge of Allegiance altogether. Once we allowed dual-citizenship, it became a joke.

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, unless they're at war with my other country..."
 
2014-04-23 9:49:21 AM  

GDubDub: Hasn't this issue been asked and answered several times:

"except that pupils who have conscientious scruples against such pledge or salute "

...And of course those student's always have the option of just not saying the "under God" part, or substituting any deity they wish.

Or are the evangelistic Atheists says even being forced to hear the word "God" persecutes them?


Would you object if the faculty lead their classes in a recitation of the Lord's Prayer every morning, even if the students weren't required to recite it?
 
2014-04-23 9:49:43 AM  
Suing on behalf of yourself to further your political/social/religious/non-religious/whatever agenda? Fine with me.

Using your kid as an excuse to sue to further your political/social/religious/non-religious/whatever agenda? Get out.

Your grade school kid doesn't care about the God in the pledge. No, really he doesn't. You might. But he doesn't. He also could not care if someone took out God from the pledge. Frankly, it's still too early in the morning when he recites the pledge. He's probably half asleep hoping that he will pass that day's spelling test.
 
2014-04-23 9:50:32 AM  

Flappyhead: That headline makes my brain hurt.



Seriously.   Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
 
2014-04-23 9:52:01 AM  
I just look at it this way. I'm not a believer, but when I go to events such as a funeral or a wedding where everyone prays, I just take that chance to respectfully bow my head and secretly check out everyone who can't see me because they are praying. I don't make a fuss about it (b-b-b-but I don't BELIEVE in God! Why are you forcing me to pray???) I know there is the whole "Separation of church and state" thing in this issue, but jesus christ, in the mean time don't say the damn pledge or just leave out the word God. You don't have to rock the damn boat every time your beliefs don't jive with everyone else's. Your life will suck. And life is just too damn short.
 
2014-04-23 9:52:42 AM  

cwolf20: cwolf20: So basically.  The person can't figure out that until the government removes Under God from the pledge where it was placed at some point. EDIT: the school can only remove it entirely

whiny interpretation:

How dare the pledge with Under God be the official pledge for many years. Remove Under God from it in your school. I'm suing because my child doesn't know how to leave out Under god while saying the pledge.  He or she shouldn't have to think about how to do that.


That's not how this works.
i1.ytimg.comView Full Size
 
2014-04-23 9:53:18 AM  

Babbs: And life is just too damn short.


Amen.
 
2014-04-23 9:53:24 AM  
Because forcing children to recite a loyalty oath every day is what "freedom" is all about.
 
2014-04-23 9:54:43 AM  
A lawsuit filed in Superior Court in Monmouth County on behalf of the family, who wish to remain unidentified...

Pussy. If you're going to make a stand you should at least have some balls about it, you Goddless son of a whore.
 
2014-04-23 9:55:11 AM  

b0rg9: Flappyhead: That headline makes my brain hurt.


Seriously.   Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?


Why is everyone channeling meow said the cat?

Never use a preposition to end a sentence with.
 
2014-04-23 9:57:01 AM  

b0rg9: Flappyhead: That headline makes my brain hurt.


Seriously.   Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?


Try this. It might help.

img.wonderhowto.comView Full Size
 
2014-04-23 9:58:12 AM  

give me doughnuts: GDubDub: Hasn't this issue been asked and answered several times:

"except that pupils who have conscientious scruples against such pledge or salute "

...And of course those student's always have the option of just not saying the "under God" part, or substituting any deity they wish.

Or are the evangelistic Atheists says even being forced to hear the word "God" persecutes them?

Would you object if the faculty lead their classes in a recitation of the Lord's Prayer every morning, even if the students weren't required to recite it?


Apples vs Donuts.

The Lord's Prayer is by definition a religious prayer.  The Pledge of Allegiance is not.  Simply don't say the two words, or substitute something non-objectionable.  It isn't that hard.

If someone would find the environment would become hostile to the point that they are pressured in to saying something that they find objectionable, I suggest that their conviction isn't as dearly held as they propose.  Furthermore, if they are Atheist, the words should have no meaning to them, so it should hardly be objectionable.

For instance, and I was asked to swear on the soul of my unicorn guide, that would hardly offends me, as unicorns do not exist.
 
2014-04-23 9:59:25 AM  
 
2014-04-23 10:02:56 AM  
Stop peeling this band-aid off slowly.  Let's just rip the whole thing off quickly and be done with it.  Stop saying the pledge or remove the "under God" reference, remove "In God We Trust" from all our currency, decommission the Office of the Chaplain and all references to deities at all levels of government, revoke all religious based holidays, change the Battle Hymn of the Republic, change all oaths of office, etc.

Oh, and if you want to initiate a lawsuit to address any of these issues then have the fortitude to be identified.  If your beliefs are that strong then why the anonymity?  Allowing people to hide behind a veil will only act to promote more of these frivolous suits.
 
2014-04-23 10:03:09 AM  

GDubDub: give me doughnuts: GDubDub: Hasn't this issue been asked and answered several times:

"except that pupils who have conscientious scruples against such pledge or salute "

...And of course those student's always have the option of just not saying the "under God" part, or substituting any deity they wish.

Or are the evangelistic Atheists says even being forced to hear the word "God" persecutes them?

Would you object if the faculty lead their classes in a recitation of the Lord's Prayer every morning, even if the students weren't required to recite it?

Apples vs Donuts.

The Lord's Prayer is by definition a religious prayer.  The Pledge of Allegiance is not.  Simply don't say the two words, or substitute something non-objectionable.  It isn't that hard.

If someone would find the environment would become hostile to the point that they are pressured in to saying something that they find objectionable, I suggest that their conviction isn't as dearly held as they propose.  Furthermore, if they are Atheist, the words should have no meaning to them, so it should hardly be objectionable.

For instance, and I was asked to swear on the soul of my unicorn guide, that would hardly offends me, as unicorns do not exist.


Yes, because no child has ever succumbed to peer pressure/pressure from authority to do something they didn't want to. The fact that they gave in means that they really didn't object.
 
2014-04-23 10:04:17 AM  

GDubDub: If someone would find the environment would become hostile to the point that they are pressured in to saying something that they find objectionable, I suggest that their conviction isn't as dearly held as they propose.


meet:

HectorSchwartz: Pussy. If you're going to make a stand you should at least have some balls about it, you Goddless son of a whore.

 
2014-04-23 10:04:24 AM  
As an Atheist, let me just say, who really gives a rats ass?
 
2014-04-23 10:08:17 AM  
As an atheist, I'm more offended that we force children to say a "pledge of allegiance" than whether the word "god" is in there or not.
 
2014-04-23 10:08:27 AM  

Babbs: I just look at it this way. I'm not a believer, but when I go to events such as a funeral or a wedding where everyone prays, I just take that chance to respectfully bow my head and secretly check out everyone who can't see me because they are praying. I don't make a fuss about it (b-b-b-but I don't BELIEVE in God! Why are you forcing me to pray???) I know there is the whole "Separation of church and state" thing in this issue, but jesus christ, in the mean time don't say the damn pledge or just leave out the word God. You don't have to rock the damn boat every time your beliefs don't jive with everyone else's. Your life will suck. And life is just too damn short.


You aren't forced to attend weddings and funerals.  Children are required, by law, to attend school.  See the difference?
 
2014-04-23 10:09:09 AM  

give me doughnuts: GDubDub: Hasn't this issue been asked and answered several times:

"except that pupils who have conscientious scruples against such pledge or salute "

...And of course those student's always have the option of just not saying the "under God" part, or substituting any deity they wish.

Or are the evangelistic Atheists says even being forced to hear the word "God" persecutes them?

Would you object if the faculty lead their classes in a recitation of the Lord's Prayer every morning, even if the students weren't required to recite it?


A fairly common practice up until the mid 1960's in the South.
 
2014-04-23 10:10:04 AM  
Fundies are CONSTANTLY using the "under God" excuse as their claim that this is a christian nation and we ALL should kiss the ass of our nearest megachurch preacher and give him all of our money and first-born daughters. So if there is any way to get rid of their stupid little excuse to ram their Dominionist horsesh*t down our throats, then I encourage it.
 
2014-04-23 10:10:07 AM  
If the religious components were part of the pledge from the beginning the "it's tradition" argument might hold water. They weren't ... it doesn't.

Of course, the fact that states are trying to rewrite the history books to paint McCarthy as a hero is pretty sad as well.
 
2014-04-23 10:11:53 AM  

GDubDub: Hasn't this issue been asked and answered several times:

"except that pupils who have conscientious scruples against such pledge or salute "

...And of course those student's always have the option of just not saying the "under God" part, or substituting any deity they wish.

Or are the evangelistic Atheists says even being forced to hear the word "God" persecutes them?


You know, I don't consider myself an evangelical atheist, but I am an evangelical scientist.  It just happens that when you start convincing people that living a life based purely on dogma rather than one based on the rational and logical inspection of ideas has caused generally bad things to happen throughout history, the idea of a god becomes rather absurd.  So while I don't necessarily support someone for attacking religion solely for its own sake, I don't find that much fault with it either since anything that might lead people away from superstitious and ignorant ways of thinking can only be for the better.
 
2014-04-23 10:12:15 AM  
The recitation of the Pledge isn't terribly important to your patriotism, or to your professed love for God.  It's about practicing the lowest level of learning - rote memory.  Teachers could use any doggerel they want to practice this.  Might as well use Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, and move up from there.

Every year in school we had to memorize progressively longer, and more complicated poetry.

Pardon me, while I ride into the Valley of Death, with 599 other idiots.
 
2014-04-23 10:16:34 AM  

stevetherobot: Yes, because no child has ever succumbed to peer pressure/pressure from authority to do something they didn't want to. The fact that they gave in means that they really didn't object.



Ewwww.... I see the rapey flaw in my logic.  I need to go back and re-examine my thoughts on this a big.

Thanks.
 
2014-04-23 10:21:38 AM  

Babbs: I just look at it this way. I'm not a believer, but when I go to events such as a funeral or a wedding where everyone prays, I just take that chance to respectfully bow my head and secretly check out everyone who can't see me because they are praying. I don't make a fuss about it (b-b-b-but I don't BELIEVE in God! Why are you forcing me to pray???) I know there is the whole "Separation of church and state" thing in this issue, but jesus christ, in the mean time don't say the damn pledge or just leave out the word God. You don't have to rock the damn boat every time your beliefs don't jive with everyone else's. Your life will suck. And life is just too damn short.


This. QFT. [bearsrepeating.jpg]. etc.

As an atheist, I am not threatened in any way or offended by people's personal beliefs in God. Sure, I think it's silly and misguided, but trying to be as indignant and obnoxious as possible about any mention of religion just makes you look like a dick.
 
2014-04-23 10:26:44 AM  

stpauler: cwolf20: cwolf20: So basically.  The person can't figure out that until the government removes Under God from the pledge where it was placed at some point. EDIT: the school can only remove it entirely

whiny interpretation:

How dare the pledge with Under God be the official pledge for many years. Remove Under God from it in your school. I'm suing because my child doesn't know how to leave out Under god while saying the pledge.  He or she shouldn't have to think about how to do that.

That's not how this works.
[i1.ytimg.com image 850x478]


And yet schools have stopped saying the pledge because it had Under God. Usually because someone didn't want Under God in it.
 
2014-04-23 10:27:34 AM  

GDubDub: ...And of course those student's always have the option of just not saying the "under God" part, or substituting any deity they wish.

cwolf20: I'm suing because my child doesn't know how to leave out Under god while saying the pledge.  He or she shouldn't have to think about how to do that.

Babbs: jesus christ, in the mean time don't say the damn pledge or just leave out the word God.


From the Supreme Court's decision in Lee v. Weisman:
As we have observed before, there are heightened concerns with protecting freedom of conscience from subtle coercive pressure in the elementary and secondary public schools. Our decisions in [Engel] and [Abington] recognize, among other things, that prayer exercises in public schools carry a particular risk of indirect coercion. The concern may not be limited to the context of schools, but it is most pronounced there. What to most believers may seem nothing more than a reasonable request that the nonbeliever respect their religious practices, in a school context may appear to the nonbeliever or dissenter to be an attempt to employ the machinery of the State to enforce a religious orthodoxy. 505 U.S. 577, 592 (citations omitted).

Allowing a kid to stay silent, while everyone else in the room is led in a religious prayer, ends up singling out the kid for coercion via peer pressure.
 
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