Molavian: Huh, I'm surprised that they're using liberal tactics.
Mrtraveler01: Molavian: Huh, I'm surprised that they're using liberal tactics.Potato/10
royone: factoryconnection: Credibility is flexible when you're addressing an echo chamber.That might carry more weight in a different thread. One that isn't using Mother Jones as a source, for example.
doubled99: Mother Jones, huh?I guess we'll be linking to National Review next. Oh, wait...
Virtue: I find the NRA more credible than anything a gun control advocate has ever said.
BigNumber12: Greylight: No one except as a desperate point would claim that Canadian freedom/constitution came about because of Queen Elizabeth's aversion to the cost of "upkeep" for Canada or the loss of an American colony by violence some 200 years previously. Talk about ethnocentric.Oh Canada!
hdhale: You are totally and completely discounting over 200 years of American history is no big deal. Gun ownership, and most particularly the gun as a tool of self-defense, is completely ingrained into the culture, more so than even booze. Do you honestly expect people will cheerfully surrender their guns? No. You will have just sent up the 'GO!' flag for every black helicopter type who will work to subvert the government that put it into place. You'll have hundreds of Wacos and Ruby Ridges across the country and as the body count of innocent civilians goes ever higher, the government will naturally be forced to crack down (there went your civil liberties...) and that will create even more rebellion. Only now, instead of semiautos, people will be arming up with selective fire REAL assault weapons...why not? If you are going to face off against Federal commandos, might as well be armed like them, and make no mistake there are any number of arms dealers that will cheerfully flood the black market with cheaply priced or free M-16s, AK-47s, military grade sniper rifles (don't think that Iran or North Korea or even Russia would hesitate to subsidize it? think again), or whatever the rebels want. A significant percentage of the US public will cheer them on and provide them quiet aid and comfort.I don't think you want that and neither do I. This nation is in danger of blowing apart into sectionalism and eventual civil war.
jaytkay: Giltric: Freedom is a little messy...and the alternative is no freedom. Do you enjoy your freedoms? They were bought and paid for via the gun.Maybe next time you can fight for your own freedoms using a poem...let me know how that turns out.Whoa, watch out, we got a badass over here.[lh5.googleusercontent.com image 350x350]
GameSprocket: Giltric: GameSprocket: Giltric: Freedom is a little messy at times....would you like citations.Freedom from what, overcrowding?Rights...freedoms....like freedom of speech.Would you abandon it if it would have saved this girls life?Her name was Eden Wormer.[media.katu.com image 405x304]How about this girl...her name was Phoebe Prince. Would you sacrifice your right to free speech if it would bring her back?[i.usatoday.net image 490x445]I wouldn't. But thats me.Are you implying that gun ownership is how we progress as a society? Because that is what the First Amendment gives us. Or, are you trying to say that gun victims commit suicide by throwing themselves into bullets?Your apple still looks like an orange to me.
Giltric: Mrtraveler01: Giltric: Freedom is a little messy at times....would you like citations.So we should just settle for these shootings?No, we can't do anything like strengthen background checks and keep better track of who buys a gun! Because that restricts freedom somehow!Give me access to the database so I don't have to involve a thrid party who will charge me for a F2F transfer and make the background check and transfer free, and keep no records of the transaction...ie no registry....let me keep my own transfer records to prove I sold a gun or purchased one legitimately.Deal?
GAT_00: Another day, another set of lies from gun advocates. Shocking.
maxx2112: It never happened, except that it did happen, just somewhere else, and with more dead and injured. By conflating two actual events, the NRA is engaging in fear and fantasy, the 2nd amendment is automatically expunged, and everyone at the NRA has to send an apology letter to James Brady.
Keizer_Ghidorah: tlchwi02: arguments about what precisely to do about gun control aside, i can not in any world see how making schools armored fortresses with armed guards is in any way, shape or form a rational response to school shootingsIf we do something about the guns themselves, or try anything that has to do with the guns themselves, it's destroying the Constitution and all of the hobbyists, doomsday preppers, and rednecks explode about Obama personally coming to take their guns and toss them into a portable smelter while ordering criminals and Muslims to ransack their homes and rape their children. So turning elementary schools into armed gulags is the most reasonable plan that doesn't impose on anyone's gun rights.I'm on both sides of this issue, but we can all agree that SOMETHING needs to be done that ISN'T either taking all the guns away (which is NEVER going to happen, no matter how much people conspiracy theorize about it) or turning every home, business, and factory into a prison-fortress. I've posted a list I've made of things that can be done many times before that doesn't include either of those, but someone always shoots them all down because of money or time or because they think they're stupid, so apparently I'm the only one who stands in the middle ground.
trappedspirit: Mrtraveler01: It's easy to mistake "broke through a school window and killed 6 students" from "was subdued by school authorities before any shots broke out"For Godsakes, the truth backs up the point they were trying to make and they still had to resort to lying?!?!This. Could be a mistake. But here's the official link to the document. Page 48. Or search for 'Hastings'http://www.nraschoolshield.com/NSS_Final_FULL.pdf
neversubmit: fuhfuhfuh: Both sides of the current gun debate seem to enjoy resorting to appeals to emotion, slippery slopes and outright fabrications to try to defend their positions. Doesn't make either side right, or make either side look like they are anything but knee-jerk reactionaries.Which side has a body count?
Mrtraveler01: They have citations to back up what they're saying though
fuhfuhfuh: Both sides of the current gun debate seem to enjoy resorting to appeals to emotion, slippery slopes and outright fabrications to try to defend their positions. Doesn't make either side right, or make either side look like they are anything but knee-jerk reactionaries.
GleeUnit: I think it's funny how these threads always bring new trolls just out of the woodwork. It's almost as if backing up the NRA and shouting down their critics is their only reason for being here. Strange, no?
Amos Quito: FTA: "That's a less useful story for the NRA, though, whose modus operandi is to call for more guns by appealing to fear and fantasy."fear and fantasyfear and fantasyFEAR AND FANTASYIsn't that what the entire "rational discussion about firearms" consists of?
Wadded Beef: Take away emotion and gun sales plummet control has nothing left to be based upon.FTF everyone.
factoryconnection: Credibility is flexible when you're addressing an echo chamber. I am always thrown when someone, columnists often, begins an address with a big, whopper of a lie or warping of the truth, because if they follow it up with what I had previously thought to be true, I then start questioning what I thought about it. As in, these assholes ruin otherwise perfectly-good facts by using them to support a fallacious claim.Now, when I point that out, people in the target audience of the writer squeal because I'm stuck on "small details" and whatnot. It is somewhat scary at times... and no, I don't just see this among republicans. I do see it a lot among republicans, though.
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