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(Opposing Views)   CNN host Candy Crowley and reporter Poppy Harlow are almost in tears over the "ruined lives" of the two Steubenville, Ohio teen football players who were found guilty of gang-raping a 16-year-old girl   ( opposingviews.com) divider line
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    More: Sick, Steubenville, Candy Crowley, Poppy Harlow, CNN, CNN host, Ohio, guilty verdicts, rapists  
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20209 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Mar 2013 at 6:09 AM (5 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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feckingmorons [TotalFark] [BareFark]
2013-03-17 09:19:49 PM  
30 votes:
I have absolutely no sympathy for rapists.

They're lives weren't ruined when they were adjudicated delinquent (in juvenile court that is tantamount to a guilty verdict), their lives were ruined when they decided to be rapists.

They'll be in detention for a year or at most until they are 21.

Big fecking deal.
kingoomieiii
2013-03-17 10:15:57 PM  
25 votes:

Philbb: Just as an aside; would they have been talking about these boys ruining their lives if they were not football players? If they had been, perhaps, very good students and members of the school band?


From Gawker-

For readers interested in learning more about how not to be labeled as registered sex offenders, a good first step is not to rape unconscious women, no matter how good your grades are. Regardless of the strength of your GPA (weighted or unweighted), if you commit rape, there is a possibility you may someday be convicted of a sex crime. This is because of your decision to commit a sex crime instead of going for a walk, or reading a book by Cormac McCarthy. Your ability to perform calculus or play football is generally not taken into consideration in a court of law. Should you prefer to be known as "Good student and excellent football player Trent Mays" rather than "Convicted sex offender Trent Mays," try stressing the studying and tackling and giving the sex crimes a miss altogether.
feckingmorons [TotalFark] [BareFark]
2013-03-17 09:55:08 PM  
22 votes:

penthesilea: [i470.photobucket.com image 500x333]

Shameful.


Contrast that with FoxNews who quotes the mother of the young woman who was criminally assaulted saying "[This crime]does not define who my daughter is. She will persevere, grow and move on."

That is exactly the story that needs to be told. Crime victims, and especially victims of sexual battery, are indeed victims. The criminals are not to be pitied for their poor choices, they are to be imprisoned.

Like Fox News or not (and I don't really watch any of the cable news) that is the right story, not how these two idiots ruined their lives by engaging in criminal sexual battery and other crimes. Screw them.
Genevieve Marie [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 02:10:19 AM  
20 votes:

cman: How does one teach others not to rape?


Well, for starters, we teach them to view other people as fully human. We don't teach young men that women are stupid, annoying, nags that only exist to be farked.

We also teach all young people a real idea of sexual consent. That sex is a healthy, positive thing as long as appropriate health precautions are taken and as long as both parties enthusiastically consent. We teach teenagers that sex isn't something that makes a boy a man and makes a woman a whore- we teach them that sex is something positive when both parties want it and it's gone into willingly and responsibly.
feckingmorons [TotalFark] [BareFark]
2013-03-17 09:56:44 PM  
18 votes:

cman: I think this is a foot in mouth moment.

If you read it it seems like she is disappointed that they threw their young lives away. She is not saying that the rapists are good people or that they don't deserve what they are about to expect, nor does she say anything bad about the victim or show the victim in any negative light.

TLDR; she could have said it better


Why be an apologist for these 'journalists'? They insist on giving us opinion rather than news. Journalism is dead in this country, we have hand wringing actors who bring us snippets of news cloaked in opinion and maudlin sentimentality.
Genevieve Marie [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 02:19:34 AM  
14 votes:
That's actually what feminists mean when we say purity culture is rape culture. Sex is something humans are always going to desire, and when we turn it into this forbidden, dirty thing- really bad dynamics emerge.

If you listen to the justifications a lot of people from this town made, they centered around the idea that this girl was a whore. That she was dirty and therefore brought this on herself.

That's rape culture. That's how it works. It's the idea that a woman who has consented to sex a few times has therefore consented to sex all of the time. It's the idea that a girl who wears something too revealing (And those standards are totally arbitrary) is asking to be raped. It's all the messed up ideas that surround this dynamic where men are supposed to want sex all the time and women are supposed to acknowledge that and fend it off at all times.

That's not healthy. This is what it creates.
rynthetyn
2013-03-18 01:34:31 AM  
12 votes:
What pisses me off to no end is that the American media goes and acts like the US is so superior to India when covering the Delhi gang rape case, but then they turn around and do the exact same victim blaming and feeling sorry for the rapists that they love to point fingers about when it happens elsewhere.
Genevieve Marie [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 03:18:58 AM  
11 votes:

violentsalvation: Yup, I'm a troll, OKAY. I was trying to sidestep you, guess that didn't work. Sorry if you think our culture inherently condones rape. But there are plenty of us who want to help and change things without trodding on a pile of neofeministic bullshiat like "rape culture".

sigh

I'm going to bed. Take care.


I should have probably phrased that differently and used the verb instead of the noun, but what you were doing is generally referred to as concern trolling. It's not the same thing as trolling in general- it's professing to be concerned about an issue, but then objecting to how others address that issue without offering a better alternative or a reasoned criticism.

And yes, our culture inherently condones rape. That's the entire issue here. That's what this case was all about. You should be able to look at what happened here and at least acknowledge that these young men were surrounded by adults who were more interested in preserving the status quo than they were in doing what was right. That none of them had been taught basic ideas about sexual consent.

This is something  feminists have been discussing for years and years and years- but generally, when we make that point, it gets laughed off as "neofeministic bullshiat" and people deny that it exists. And then when a case pops up that shows that we've got a point, people react by criticizing how we make that point.

It's a bit exhausting. If you're actually interested in helping to change that cultural attitude, maybe you should stop writing off other people's opinions just because they're not phrased in a way that's designed to make you comfortable.
jso2897 [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 06:39:50 AM  
10 votes:
In a sense - yes - these boys are victims. But we need to be very clear with ourselves as to what they are victims of.
They are not victims of a slutty girl, or an over zealous prosecutor.
They are victims of a society adrift, whose values have grown warped. A society that told them they could do whatever they wanted as long as they pertformed well on the all-important playing field. A society that didn't bother to even try to teach them anything about being men - as opposed to merely male apes.
A society that taught them that sex is a commodity, and just another form of power to be abused.
To his credit, in court one of the boy's fathers had the stones to tearfully admit that maybe if he had found the time to be there for his son, things might have ended differently.
And it is probably too late for them. Our record of rehabilitating teen sociopaths is very poor - I doubt that they have much more of a chance than the average gangbanger (of the OTHER kind) who shoots somebody and gets caught. But yeah - they are victims.

If we(and by "we" I mean us largely male Farkers) take anything away from this, it needs to be that we need to be fathers to our sons, and teach them to be men. We can't blame the women in their lives for our failure to do that.
Like the man said : "Raise you motherf**kin' kids".
Philbb
2013-03-17 10:14:38 PM  
10 votes:
Poppy Harlow: "... had such promising futures, star football player, very good students...."

Just as an aside; would they have been talking about these boys ruining their lives if they were not football players? If they had been, perhaps, very good students and members of the school band?

The lack of interest in the victim doesn't surprise me at all. I've known that since the beginning of the Penn State scandal when so people were all broke up over losing a coach and had no sympathy for the alleged victims.
penthesilea [TotalFark]
2013-03-17 09:48:53 PM  
10 votes:
i470.photobucket.comView Full Size


Shameful.
RedT
2013-03-18 10:26:57 AM  
7 votes:

browntimmy: Let's say there's a scenario where a girl accepted an invitation from a guy she just met at a party to come hang out with him and 3 of his friends that she also doesn't know at an abandoned warehouse at 1am, and she's raped. You're not allowed to say things like, "This girl lacks so much common sense she's a danger to herself." Because somehow saying that is equivalent to saying, "The rapists did nothing wrong, it was all her fault."


Because women/girls must be on the lookout at ALL TIMES for potential rape situations.
Men have no idea how it is to feel this way all the time.

This morning I ran around LadyBird lake at 5:30.  I decided to forgo my iPod so that I could hear any footsteps behind me.  I am always very aware of my surrounding and my ability to sprint (and just how fast and how far I can sprint) if necessary.

I also did not run 10 miles because the other 3 miles of the loop are deserted at that hour.  I was NOT afraid of being robbed (of my car key and Garmin, the only things I had on me). I was not afraid of being jumped and beat up by a roving gang of hooligans.
And you bet you ass if I was attacked raped folks would be saying, "What was she doing running in the dark."  "What was she wearing?" "Why was she alone."

I sincerely doubt any man who I saw running on that same loop had ANY concern about his safety beyond tripping over a root and busting his own ass.

This is simply the situation in this country.

Yet, many people don't want to admit that we have a rape culture and want to get offended by the phrase.  But our culture teaches us (both men and women) that gals must be on the lookout at ALL TIMES for potential rape situations.

That's not "culture"?  Bullshiat.
Genevieve Marie [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 02:59:12 AM  
7 votes:

rynthetyn: I'm not entirely sure how, probably because my parents put virtually no restrictions on what I read and I ended up reading the right sort of books and articles, but I never bought into the idea that it was somehow a woman's fault if she's assaulted. If I'd been paying attention to the messages I was getting from the culture around me though, I would have come to totally different conclusions.


God bless Judy Blume. She saved a generation of women from growing up with weird ideas about sex.
Genevieve Marie [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 01:51:55 AM  
7 votes:

rynthetyn: Genevieve Marie: rynthetyn: What pisses me off to no end is that the American media goes and acts like the US is so superior to India when covering the Delhi gang rape case, but then they turn around and do the exact same victim blaming and feeling sorry for the rapists that they love to point fingers about when it happens elsewhere.

You're not the first to make the comparison and it's most certainly a fair and accurate one. Anyone that denies we live in a rape culture isn't paying attention.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/172024/americas-rape-problem-we-refuse -a dmit-there-one#

At least people in India are starting to admit they have a problem, most Americans are convinced that we're all find and dandy.

One of my friends (and occasional farker) took part in this demonstration in Delhi this week where men held signs apologizing and making the statement that the change starts with them. I'd be shocked to ever see something like that here in the US.


Same. See: Any thread ever where a feminist points out that we need to teach sexual consent to teenagers, i.e. that women need to be taught that it's ok to say yes when we want to have sex and that young men need to be taught to firmly respect a "no".

The idea that men need to be taught not to rape makes people furious, but I mean... watch the video embedded in this link. The young men talking clearly haven't been taught not to rape. They haven't been taught to respect sexual boundaries. And the scary part is they aren't out of the ordinary! These guys remind me of numerous boys I knew in high school and college.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/01/steubenville-high-fo ot ball-rape-crew/60554/
tudorgurl [TotalFark]
2013-03-17 09:43:04 PM  
7 votes:

feckingmorons: I have absolutely no sympathy for rapists.

They're lives weren't ruined when they were adjudicated delinquent (in juvenile court that is tantamount to a guilty verdict), their lives were ruined when they decided to be rapists.

They'll be in detention for a year or at most until they are 21.

Big fecking deal.


SO. MUCH. THIS.
wickedragon
2013-03-18 10:47:13 AM  
6 votes:

UnspokenVoice: Owangotang: Aegius: They're not asking for it....but.... getting so drunk that you pass out for hours is piss poor judgement.  Whether you get beaten, robbed, raped, I think there is always an issue of self responsibility to protect yourself from getting so inebriated that you can no longer function.  That being said....she would have never even known anything had ever happened to her if someone hadn't tipped her off.

This is so much bullsh*t, just because someone is vulnerable does not mean someone else HAS to take advantage of that vulnerability. These monsters CHOSE to prey upon her vulnerability, they could have just as easily protected her by putting her in a separate bedroom to let her sleep it off, all the while stopping anyone from going in there. What did they CHOOSE to do instead? Rape her.

What f*cking planet are we living on when there are serious arguments put out there such as, "Well she chose to get blackout drunk, guess that means it's rapin' time!"? What the fark?

That is not remotely what they said. If you're vulnerable nobody HAS to take advantage of you - you got that part correct. However, if you're vulnerable someone MAY take advantage of you, that is reality. Informing people of reality and advising that they stay safe and avoid vulnerable situations is not a bad thing.

Is it blaming the victim? It is. If you go through a dark alley in a high crime area and do so knowingly and you get mugged you aren't at fault but you are an idiot.

I have a daughter. She's made it through her years - all the way to adulthood - without once being raped (fortunately). It's first a matter of statistics, someone has to come out on the winning side. Also important is that she's well aware of what a dangerous situation is and makes the effort to avoid those situations.

If she put herself in a situation where she was vulnerable and was raped would I blame her? Of course not. I would, however, make it a point to wait until she is more emotionally stable and, ag ...


No.
If you want this to end you need to teach kids right from wrong. I have been to several parties where young (and very pretty) women have gone uncoscious from liquoritis. Do you know how many of those were raped ? None. And I know of at least one sociopath that was present on a few of those parties, and I know at least one incident where he spent an hour getting one of those girls home where her parents could care for her. His parents had done their job right, and psychological illnesses aside he was a decent human being. Kinda depressed, but decent.
You CAN do something about the perps. You can stop them from being perps. You can choose to change your surroundings so that it fits into your moral framework. I for one choose to stand up against sexist idéas even when it's just water cooler jokes. I don't give an aeronautical fecal bun that it might make me the 'bore' at the office (it doesn't), it's the difference between a proper adult and a child where I come from.
poot_rootbeer
2013-03-18 09:01:33 AM  
6 votes:

Bit'O'Gristle: I hope you get gang raped in the ass in prison every night by a well hung transformer who is into inflicting pain, and sells you to all his butt buddies for a pack of smokes, and you end up skinny toothless cum guzzling homo's upon your release.


thesignalinthenoise.files.wordpress.comView Full Size
ginandbacon
2013-03-18 08:53:11 AM  
6 votes:
How on earth does anyone object to the term rape culture? What else would you call the mores of a group that condone and minimize the horror of sexual assault?

How does her being intoxicated even come up in this discussion? I got plenty drunk at her age and nary a one of the guys I was partying with raped me. Usually they just stuck a pillow under my head and threw a blanket over me. Because they weren't, you know,  rapists.That kind of behavior was frowned upon in the environment I grew up in. Sort of the opposite of a rape culture if you will.

The girl's family has received death threats. Because she reported an assault.

The authorities and adults in charge were complicit.

And assholes are lamenting the ruined futures of a couple of predators who kidnapped and raped a girl who had the audacity to break up with one of their teammates.

Not to mention the outrageous victim blaming/shaming we have seen.

How should this be described if not as rape culture? Suggestions?
Genevieve Marie [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 03:00:41 AM  
6 votes:

rynthetyn: Genevieve Marie: violentsalvation: rynthetyn: most Americans are convinced that we're all fine and dandy.

I completely disagree with that, though I understand your frustration, and I share it as best I can, as a dude. But we have to work together on this, and terms we see like "rape culture" are only a divisive sideshow, IMHO. If we can put that nonsense aside perhaps we can get to addressing the issue.

... how are terms like "rape culture" a divisive sideshow when the issue we're talking about is a culture that blames victims of rape and makes excuses for rapists?

Also, I didn't even mention "rape culture". Bringing it up as a deflection is just another way of making excuses to avoid dealing with the problem.


Yup. Typical concern troll derailing of the subject.

"I agree with you there's a problem, but we can only talk about it in terms that I am comfortable with which sidestep that problem and don't acknowledge this exists, and somehow, this will solve everything."
Genevieve Marie [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 01:38:15 AM  
6 votes:

rynthetyn: What pisses me off to no end is that the American media goes and acts like the US is so superior to India when covering the Delhi gang rape case, but then they turn around and do the exact same victim blaming and feeling sorry for the rapists that they love to point fingers about when it happens elsewhere.


You're not the first to make the comparison and it's most certainly a fair and accurate one. Anyone that denies we live in a rape culture isn't paying attention.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/172024/americas-rape-problem-we-refuse -a dmit-there-one#
basemetal [TotalFark]
2013-03-17 11:43:42 PM  
6 votes:
Meh, people can talk to the points of the victim not putting themselves in compromising situations, but the fact remains that you don't take sexual advantage of people who are not able to defend or consent for themselves.  I'm sure these boys have been told this, if not, then their parents failed them, because anymore, you damn well better have a talk to your kid about legalities of such behavior.

/sad for both sides
//but it's hard to garner any sympathy for the boys
kingoomieiii
2013-03-17 10:03:58 PM  
6 votes:
Also, I liked all the people talking about how this is a "cautionary tale" about using social media. In the old days, athletes beat rape charges by hiding evidence, not posting it online!
Moonfisher
2013-03-18 06:46:24 PM  
5 votes:
My seven-year-old son just wandered in and asked me what I was reading.  I took the initiative to give him an age-appropriate, brief synopsis of this event.  Told him a girl and some boys were drinking at a party, the girl got very drunk and fell asleep, and the boys thought it was funny to take pictures of her private parts and kiss her without asking.  He was aghast, and the first thing he asked me was, "Why didn't anybody else at the party stop them?"  I replied, "These were popular football players.  Maybe they were scared?" He angrily shook his head and said, "So leave and call the police!  What's wrong with those people?"

So when I read and hear people saying that boys will be boys or feeling pity for these entitled little sociopathic twits, I look at my own child who, at seven, is already more of a man than any of them, and I can still feel a little glimmer of hope.
Genevieve Marie [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 03:09:25 PM  
5 votes:

Kahabut: Genevieve Marie: Kahabut: I'm not really ok with either of those options, do you think we could come up with something else?

Um... I'm not quite sure why you consider advocating that we teach sexual consent as part of sex education an extreme position?

Teaching "don't rape", which may or may not be your particular message, is extreme.  Do we teach "don't murder", or "don't steal" or "don't lie"?  Then it's extreme, because it's something EVERYONE is supposed to know, and apparently they don't.  (that doesn't make you an extremist, but you are in company with some, please don't doubt it)

It's also terribly insulting to be grouped with a bunch of people by another group of people, who then label all of us as rapists, and label themselves as victims.  Insulting, depressing, and frankly, I have a better solution.

If you forcibly rape anyone, ever, you lose your genitals.  PERIOD.  If you do it again, you lose your life.  Fix that problem right up.  Then all we have to do is teach young women that crying rape is in fact a terribly serious thing and if they falsely do it they suffer the punishment.  That will clear up the OTHER side of the problem, and we can all go about our rape free lives.


Of course we actively teach kids not to steal and not to lie. And while we may not explicitly teach "don't murder", we certainly teach kids not to hurt other kids. From a very young age, most kids are taught that stealing, lying, and using violence against other people is not acceptable. However? We don't have open and honest conversations with young people about sex. Mostly, all they hear is "Sex is bad, don't do it" which leaves them woefully unprepared to deal with the reality that they are going to want to have it and they're going to have a lot of questions about it.

When I say people should be taught not to rape what I mean is that teenagers need to be taught sexual consent. They need to understand that it is always their right to say no, but it is also their right to say yes. That sex is a positive thing when both partners enthusiastically consent and when proper medical precautions are taken. That's a healthy thing to teach.

Right now, they get this weird dynamic where boys need to have sex to be a man, but girls who have sex are considered sluts and whores. We set up a dynamic where boys are taught not to take no seriously,  because all girls are supposed to say no, even when they really want it. We set up a dynamic where girls don't feel like they can actively say yes without being considered dirty. Throw in some alcohol and you have a pretty negative thing going on that can easily snowball out of control.

So yea, we need to totally rework how we treat sex as a country if we have any hope of preventing these kinds of situations.  And people need to stop acting like it's a horrific thing to suggest that they teach young men positive ideas about sexuality and about consent. Like I said- you'd teach your young boy not  to steal and not think twice about it.
Genevieve Marie [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 02:56:15 AM  
5 votes:

violentsalvation: rynthetyn: most Americans are convinced that we're all fine and dandy.

I completely disagree with that, though I understand your frustration, and I share it as best I can, as a dude. But we have to work together on this, and terms we see like "rape culture" are only a divisive sideshow, IMHO. If we can put that nonsense aside perhaps we can get to addressing the issue.


... how are terms like "rape culture" a divisive sideshow when the issue we're talking about is a culture that blames victims of rape and makes excuses for rapists?
feckingmorons [TotalFark] [BareFark]
2013-03-17 10:21:32 PM  
5 votes:

kingoomieiii: Philbb: Just as an aside; would they have been talking about these boys ruining their lives if they were not football players? If they had been, perhaps, very good students and members of the school band?

From Gawker-

For readers interested in learning more about how not to be labeled as registered sex offenders, a good first step is not to rape unconscious women, no matter how good your grades are. Regardless of the strength of your GPA (weighted or unweighted), if you commit rape, there is a possibility you may someday be convicted of a sex crime. This is because of your decision to commit a sex crime instead of going for a walk, or reading a book by Cormac McCarthy. Your ability to perform calculus or play football is generally not taken into consideration in a court of law. Should you prefer to be known as "Good student and excellent football player Trent Mays" rather than "Convicted sex offender Trent Mays," try stressing the studying and tackling and giving the sex crimes a miss altogether.



That is brilliant. It is so simple, yet people think it is a joke.

Don't want to be labeled a rapist, don't be a rapist.
kingoomieiii
2013-03-17 10:01:53 PM  
5 votes:

feckingmorons: I have absolutely no sympathy for rapists.

They're lives weren't ruined when they were adjudicated delinquent (in juvenile court that is tantamount to a guilty verdict), their lives were ruined when they decided to be rapists.

They'll be in detention for a year or at most until they are 21.

Big fecking deal.


This is literally the first thing you've said that I agree with.
kingoomieiii
2013-03-17 10:00:42 PM  
5 votes:

cman: I think this is a foot in mouth moment.

If you read it it seems like she is disappointed that they threw their young lives away. She is not saying that the rapists are good people or that they don't deserve what they are about to expect, nor does she say anything bad about the victim or show the victim in any negative light.

TLDR; she could have said it better


The problem is that no one even gives a shiat about the victim. I don't care AT ALL what a rapist's future plans were, and I CERTAINLY don't think those plans should be part and parcel of the post-verdict discussion.

"The accused planned to buy a home in No Rape County, Utah- however, the county has numerous schools, and it is unlikely he will be able to find a home more than 500 yards from school property. It is currently unknown where he plans to move once he leaves prison." -five news stations

"Man, what's the guy's CURRENT house going to be worth when he gets out? #plansruined #farkfeminism" -twitter
cman [TotalFark]
2013-03-17 09:53:52 PM  
5 votes:
I think this is a foot in mouth moment.

If you read it it seems like she is disappointed that they threw their young lives away. She is not saying that the rapists are good people or that they don't deserve what they are about to expect, nor does she say anything bad about the victim or show the victim in any negative light.

TLDR; she could have said it better
Genevieve Marie [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 06:10:05 PM  
4 votes:

Popcorn Johnny: Genevieve Marie: You keep asking for that, and yet you don't seem to accept the pictures of her being carried around by her arms and legs, looking like a sack of flour, nor do you accept the video of the people at the party who were talking about her as the dead girl and making jokes about her being unconscious.

I'm not sure what more proof you want than images showing her unconscious and videos where people are discussing that she's unconscious.

WTF does a picture of her being carried around and a video from some idiot (not one of the accused) prove? Did they humiliate her after she passed out? Sure they did. Did they finger bang her after she was passed out, or was it earlier in the evening, with her consent? If you're saying you know that as a fact, you haven't spent 5 minutes looking over the evidence that's been made available, because there's absolutely nothing that proves when the "rape" occurred.


Yea, that's about what I thought you'd say. It's fairly clear that you want to believe these boys are innocent despite a lot of video evidence from the evening, despite the testimony of eyewitnesses, and despite the fact that they've been found guilty in a court of law.

You sir, are what we call a rape apologist, and you're not worth any more of my time.
rewind2846
2013-03-18 05:32:49 PM  
4 votes:
These morons undressed and jammed their hands (and who knows what else) up an unconscious girl's vagina. That is rape.
Then they took video and pictures of the act, laughing as they did so. That is callous.
Later, they posted the pictures and video of the half naked and violated girl on the internet for the entire planet to view. That is just f*cked up.

F*ck them.
F*ck their football team and the coaches that knew about this.
F*ck anyone else in that town that went along with it.
And f*ck these "reporters" from CNN square in the ass with a rusty fencepost.
/what if that was one of their daughters?
Genevieve Marie [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 03:31:21 PM  
4 votes:

Super_pope: f no, I don't BLAME her but she's got a hand in this


Sigh. No. No she doesn't. She shouldn't have drank enough alcohol to become incapacitated because she's a minor and it's illegal, but that still does not mean that her actions caused her rape or that she bears any responsibility for the fact that she was raped.

The actions those boys took were so heinous and so obviously morally reprehensible that it should have been obvious to everyone at the party that this was wrong. The correct course of action should have been very obvious: Call someone to pick her up or put her in bed alone to sleep it off. They did not choose to take the correct course of action. They chose to rape her, degrade her, and they did it in front of a room full of laughing people.

The idea that because she was incapacitated, she was automatically at risk for rape treats rape like a natural threat. Like something women have an obligation to fend off. Once again, this isn't true- this girl was raped because these boys chose to rape her.
Genevieve Marie [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 02:34:32 PM  
4 votes:

tlars699: Your previous argument that I live in a constant "paranoid" fear that I may be raped at any given opportunity is correct.
It is ALWAYS in my mind that I could be attacked, especially when vulnerable.


What's fun is that the men who will say women are paranoid for always being aware of any situation in which rape might be possible are always the SAME men who look at a rape case and say "Well  yea, but the victim had the responsibility to watch out for herself."

So we're supposed to constantly take responsibility for protecting ourselves from rape and yet not talk about the ways in which we do that, lest we be considered paranoid, or like we're crazy and we think all men are potential rapists.
Do you know the way to Mordor
2013-03-18 02:32:01 PM  
4 votes:
feckingmorons:

Don't want to be labeled a rapist, don't be a rapist.

An obvious reply to that is:


10 Top Tips to End Rape

Don't put drugs in women's drinks.

When you see a woman walking by herself, leave her alone.

If you pull over to help a woman whose car has broken down, remember not to rape her.

If you are in a lift and a woman gets in, don't rape her.

Never creep into a woman's home through an unlocked window, or spring out at her from between parked cars, or rape her.

USE THE BUDDY SYSTEM! If you are not able to stop yourself from assaulting people, ask a friend to stay with you while you are in public.

Don't forget: it's not sex with someone who's asleep or unconscious - it's RAPE!

Carry a whistle! If you are worried you might assault someone 'by accident' you can hand it to the person you are with, so they can call for help.

Don't forget: Honesty is the best policy. If you have every intention of having sex later on with the woman you're dating regardless of how she feels about it, tell her directly that there is every chance that you will rape her.

If you don't communicate your intentions, she may take it as a sign that you do not plan to rape her and inadvertently feel safe.  Don't rape.
Magnanimous_J
2013-03-18 11:59:41 AM  
4 votes:

Popcorn Johnny: So ever woman that has a drink and then has sex has the right to claim rape if they so choose? Bullshiat!



Any woman can claim rape at any time. She can claim rape on a man who she's never even been in the same room with and wreck his year faster than a cancer diagnosis. The good news is that other than a handful of lunatics, this is exceedingly rare. Rape being underreported is a far more frequent problem than women falsely accusing men of it. That's where we should be placing our attention. A good first step would be not to automatically assume an accuser is some kind of vengeful whack job.
Waxing_Chewbacca
2013-03-18 11:42:01 AM  
4 votes:

Popcorn Johnny: Waxing_Chewbacca: So there was NO sex. Didn't happen. She passed out and pics were taken. That's what you believe? I think we can agree she was in no condition to consent which is as good as a NO in my book.

I never said there was no sex, the guys admitted to finger banging her. What's disputed is whether or not it was consensual. I've seen no proof that it was or wasn't. In a court, lack of proof goes to the defendant each and every time.


You saw pics. You heard stories about her condition!!! She was beyond wasted!!! Do believe she COULD consent? Apparently yes.

Unreal... So it's not violent and its consensual if she doesn't move and can barely speak due to alcohol. You're a sick fark.
Biological Ali
2013-03-18 11:41:45 AM  
4 votes:

serial_crusher: Do cops say that sort of thing about rape victims?


Here's a brief passage from Steven Pinker's The Better Angels of Our Nature:

Police often treated rape as a joke, pressing the victim for pornographic details or dismissing her with wisecracks like "Who'd want to rape you?" or "A rape victim is a prostitute who doesn't get paid."

The reason rape is so under-reported isn't just because rape itself is such a traumatizing crime - it's because rape victims have historically been subjected to treatment, even by authorities, that no other victims of any crime have had to face.
No Such Agency
2013-03-18 10:30:53 AM  
4 votes:
Genevieve Marie:
violentsalvation: rynthetyn: most Americans are convinced that we're all fine and dandy.

I completely disagree with that, though I understand your frustration, and I share it as best I can, as a dude. But we have to work together on this, and terms we see like "rape culture" are only a divisive sideshow, IMHO. If we can put that nonsense aside perhaps we can get to addressing the issue.

... how are terms like "rape culture" a divisive sideshow when the issue we're talking about is a culture that blames victims of rape and makes excuses for rapists?

Because he doesn't like having to confront and analyze the dangerously sexist assumptions of his culture, since they're not dangerous to him and he might find he has to change his own attitudes?

The irony is of course that victim-shaming and blaming affects men too, since not only do we have female friends and relatives who we want to stay safe, but men and boys can be victims of sexual assault too at which point they face being belittled and shamed by that same culture.
poot_rootbeer
2013-03-18 10:20:10 AM  
4 votes:
doglover:
Step One: REPORT IT.
Step Two: REPORT IT.
Step Three: REPORT IT.

Step Zero:  Establish a credible justice system where people who report sexual assaults are treated with due respect and dignity, instead of often being subjected to further psychological trauma.
Owangotang
2013-03-18 09:57:47 AM  
4 votes:

Aegius: They're not asking for it....but.... getting so drunk that you pass out for hours is piss poor judgement.  Whether you get beaten, robbed, raped, I think there is always an issue of self responsibility to protect yourself from getting so inebriated that you can no longer function.  That being said....she would have never even known anything had ever happened to her if someone hadn't tipped her off.


This is so much bullsh*t, just because someone is vulnerable does not mean someone else HAS to take advantage of that vulnerability. These monsters CHOSE to prey upon her vulnerability, they could have just as easily protected her by putting her in a separate bedroom to let her sleep it off, all the while stopping anyone from going in there. What did they CHOOSE to do instead? Rape her.

What f*cking planet are we living on when there are serious arguments put out there such as, "Well she chose to get blackout drunk, guess that means it's rapin' time!"? What the fark?
bigworld
2013-03-18 08:55:10 AM  
4 votes:
Here are two reasonably good looking, popular guys who could probably have wild, consensual sex with just about any Stuebenville high school girl -- and they choose to poke the limp, unresponsive body of a girl who they assumed was pretty much dead. And videotape it.

How farking depraved is that?

It's not about the sex, it's abuse and power and privilege.

I'm saddened by the fact that they only get a year, but it's entirely just that anytime someone Googles these kids for the rest of their lives, "guilty of gang rape" is going to come up next to their names.  Good luck getting a respectable job or girlfriend down the road, fellas.
vudukungfu [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 08:43:32 AM  
4 votes:

badhatharry: A big problem is that she was brought to multiple parties and nobody stopped them.


Who supplied the alcohol?
If it had been Ecstasy or heroin, you better believe there would be an all out man hunt to find out where the impairment substances came from.
Not One Word About where the alcohol came from.
badhatharry
2013-03-18 08:37:09 AM  
4 votes:
A big problem is that she was brought to multiple parties and nobody stopped them.
Typhoid
2013-03-18 08:21:09 AM  
4 votes:

Bontesla: Yogimus: Bontesla:

You are totally right. Much better to suck it up and move on.

Which isn't anything remotely close to what I said.

We can't demand rape victims come forward if we refuse to protect them. If we blame them for tempting the rapists. If show more sympathize with their attackers than we show with the victims.

We, as a society, are responsible for this.


THIS. Look at what has been said about this poor girl. Seeing what women have to put up with when they accuse, I'm shocked any guy has the balls to say women are to blame if they don't come forward. There's tons of proof in this case, and they barely got a slap on the wrist. And she is STILL treated like she deserved it and the poor young men are ruined for life.

/I couldn't. I was 16. I didn't know him. And I was still terrified to come forward because of crap like this.
//not coming back to this thread because I'm not putting myself through all the "more girls were raped because of you" bull.
///girl from this story said she had one drink. It was likely spiked but there was no proof (boo puns) for trial. But go ahead, call her a drunk whore. Because if she deserved it, then it can't happen to you and yours, right?
Bontesla
2013-03-18 08:07:56 AM  
4 votes:

doglover: Bontesla: Yogimus: Bontesla: Do you know how difficult it is to actually prove unwanted sexual contact when there's still evidence of wanted sexual contact?

Sure do. It is even harder when there is no history.

Which is largely inadmissible in court without prior conviction.


Either report or do not, but it's not a crime until it's reported. Police don't have psychics like Minority Report. If you want change in the world, you have to be that change.


We're responsible for the reason why rape victims largely don't come forward. Perhaps not you or I - but certainly our society. We punish the victims. We collectively ask what they could have done to be responsible for their own rapes.

This particular girl was bullied and threatened after she cameras forward. While that night was unfolding - people at the party rationalized that she deserves to be raped because she was drunk.

What incentive are we giving rape victims to come forward? But we should totally demand that all victims step forward to be treated like whores because they were victims of rape.
Bontesla
2013-03-18 07:32:15 AM  
4 votes:

Yogimus: breadprincess: I was the same age as the victim in this case and didn't tell anyone or talk about it at all for six years because I was a "good girl" and a virgin when it happened, and everyone knows that only slutty "bad girls" get raped, amirite?

You ever wonder how many of his other girlfriends got to go through what you did because you said nothing?


Do you know how difficult it is to actually prove unwanted sexual contact when there's still evidence of wanted sexual contact?
RobSeace [TotalFark] [BareFark]
2013-03-18 07:29:39 AM  
4 votes:

Ukab the Great: You do believe in the Bible...don't you?


Believe in it? I've actually seen one before!

borg: Do they have to register as sex offenders for the rest of their lives? Thats what will ruin their lives and any chance of decent employment.


i.imgur.comView Full Size
keylock71
2013-03-18 07:04:59 AM  
4 votes:
The only thing these two little assholes were remorseful for is posting it online and getting caught...

They got off easy, legally, though, and I hope where ever they go for they rest of their lives, someone will be there to let these rapists' coworkers and friends know what they did.
Bontesla
2013-03-18 06:56:44 AM  
4 votes:

ekdikeo4: I just heard something vaguely disturbing about this.  According to something that was just on a local news story, this girl was raped at "several" parties over the course of several days.  Not to even remotely say that the guys weren't wrong to do what they did, but .. this girl needs some help, too.


There were several parties that spanned a single night. She was no longer in control of herself (couldn't walk or talk) by the second party and was unconscious by the third (two players were dragging her in and out).

There's some speculation that date rapes drugs were used but there girl learned about her own violation from twitter so there was very little chemical evidence left to collect via a drug test.

The boys belonged to you Rape Squad. A name they gave themselves before that night.

It's quite likely that they've raped before. This girl was an outsider and stepped forward.
TommyymmoT
2013-03-18 03:00:26 AM  
4 votes:
If any trained circus monkey in the NFL, NBA, NHL NASCAR etc, is your child's role model, you have failed as a parent.
Relatively Obscure [TotalFark]
2013-03-17 11:25:14 PM  
4 votes:
Sounds like they caught a pretty big break to me.  Fark 'em.

Also, who the hell is surprised when CNN sucks anymore?
SilentStrider
2013-03-17 10:08:12 PM  
4 votes:
Imdo take some solace. Even if CNN has their head up their ass, Anon doesn't. I hope they hound these rapists and make their post prison lives a living hell.
Biological Ali
2013-03-18 06:28:47 PM  
3 votes:

Popcorn Johnny: All I'm doing


Do everyone (including yourself) a favour, and stop posting in this thread. Afterwards, you'll probably want to abandon this handle and start up a new account, since this something like this is going to be hard to shake off - especially considering how long you've dragged it on for.
Genevieve Marie [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 02:59:45 PM  
3 votes:

BarkingUnicorn: Genevieve Marie: This is the problem with making the narrative about the victim's choices. It always seems to conveniently gloss over the fact that the rapists had a choice too, and the one they made actually IS illegal.

When a problem is being adequately addressed in court, it is not being "glossed over."  A problem that is not being addressed merits discussion.


Except the idea that women have a responsibility to constantly watch out for rapists is not a problem that isn't being addressed. It's something that's been addressed ad nauseam. Ask almost any woman alive and she'll be able to give you a run down of all the ways in which she watches out for her personal safety at all times.

We're on that. We got it. Teaching women how not to get raped has been the core of rape prevention strategy forever. It's tiresome. We get it, and most of us follow all those little rules all of the time, but sometimes you have a bad night. I know there have definitely been a few nights in my life where for whatever reason, I had too much to drink. I wasn't raped though- because there wasn't a rapist in the room with me. That's the x factor. The decision to drink too much does not necessarily have destructive consequences.

It's not helpful or productive to look at cases where a woman passed out or otherwise let down her guard and point to that as the cause of the rape. Like I said, had there not been rapists in the room, she would have been put to bed and left alone. A crime didn't occur because she got drunk and passed out, a crime occurred because someone chose to commit one.
Genevieve Marie [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 02:37:55 PM  
3 votes:

Contrabulous Flabtraption: Is it a crime to get so drunk you can't say no? No, but it is stupid and invites this sort of thing


No, it doesn't "invite" this sort of thing.

These boys could very easily have called someone to get her, or carried her onto a couch and let her sleep it off. That would have been the smart choice for them to make.

Instead they chose to sexually assault her and degrade her.

This is the problem with making the narrative about the victim's choices. It always seems to conveniently gloss over the fact that the rapists had a choice too, and the one they made actually IS illegal.
kingoomieiii
2013-03-18 10:50:04 AM  
3 votes:

CeroX: It's like parking in the ghetto and leaving your doors unlocked... You can't TRUST the people around you not to act like criminals, and leaving your doors unlocked isn't literally asking to have your stereo stolen, but it is a hell of a lot riskier doing so...


The difference is that people are actually interested in dealing with the SOURCE of the crime (theft), not just learning how to avoid being a victim of it.

The second a woman goes on Fox News and makes the equivalent argument for rape, she gets racist death threats.

"Fire prevention" means fireproofing- making sure fires can't start.
"Rape prevention" has nothing to do with 'prevention'. It means being able to STOP AN ATTEMPTED RAPE IN PROGRESS. Because "boys will be boys".
TV's Vinnie
2013-03-18 09:28:56 AM  
3 votes:
i470.photobucket.comView Full Size


Notice that what gives these Loverboys such a pass by these media cretins is that they were "promising star football players". Like as if that dirty slut destroyed some billionaire a couple of draft picks for his college football racket. Boo farking hoo hoo hoo! Seems this culture really needs a brain enema to flush out this football jock worship they have. Football is NOT everything.
The Muthaship
2013-03-18 08:41:22 AM  
3 votes:

Popcorn Johnny: I've yet to see any evidence that the two kids convicted were guilty of anything other than being douches. Another kid took the widely distributed photo of the girl being carried around and testimony in court said that the one teen stopped any sexual advances once he realized that the girl was unconscious.

Just so we're clear, the tweets talking about "you are so raped" were not sent by one of these two. One of these two did distribute a nude picture of the girl, so the child porn charge is warranted. Doesn't make him a rapist though.

I'll change my stance if somebody can show the evidence against these two.


Your stance is slightly less important than that of the judge who saw all the evidence.  Being a juvenile case (inexplicably), getting you that evidence will prove difficult.  So, I guess go on with whatever opinion you feel is warranted.
office_despot
2013-03-18 08:26:34 AM  
3 votes:

serial_crusher: Bontesla: We're responsible for the reason why rape victims largely don't come forward. Perhaps not you or I - but certainly our society. We punish the victims. We collectively ask what they could have done to be responsible for their own rapes.

Why is rape the only crime that's a big deal in that department?  Suppose somebody breaks into your house and steals all your stuff, so you mosey on down to the police station to file a report.  Cop starts asking tough questions like "did you leave the door unlocked?", "do you have a dog?", "oh, you forgot to set your alarm system that day?"  Victim blaming, I say!  Next time that victim gets robbed, they'll be less likely to report it!

/ well not really, but only because there's not people like you going around convincing robbery victims that they should let their robbers go free instead of cooperating with the police.


You think the robbery example is totally ridiculous, but in fact that is cultural, too.

I worked in Japan for a while.  There is no property crime -- none.  It is not accepted or tolerated, and it is not done.It is considered rude to wear your shoes into a dwelling, and so everywhere in Tokyo you see REALLY expensive pairs of shoes sitting unattended outside of doors.  Same with bicycles.  People ride them everywhere, and practically throw them in a pile at work in the morning and pick them up at the end of the day.  No locks or anything.

Simply put, the level of any crime that exists in a culture exists because it is tolerated.
Bontesla
2013-03-18 08:00:47 AM  
3 votes:

Yogimus: Bontesla:

You are totally right. Much better to suck it up and move on.


Which isn't anything remotely close to what I said.

We can't demand rape victims come forward if we refuse to protect them. If we blame them for tempting the rapists. If show more sympathize with their attackers than we show with the victims.

We, as a society, are responsible for this.
vudukungfu [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 08:00:12 AM  
3 votes:

Philbb: Just as an aside; would they have been talking about these boys ruining their lives if they were not football players? If they had been, perhaps, very good students and members of the school band?

The lack of interest in the victim doesn't surprise me at all. I've known that since the beginning of the Penn State scandal when so people were all broke up over losing a coach and had no sympathy for the alleged victims.


Football is big business. Therefore, members of the football community have acted with impunity in a culture of rape for many, many moons.
Which is why I compare Football culture to Pakistani Culture. Both groups have the same mindset. Our cause is the greater cause and our people (male) can do no wrong. Women cannot play. But they can be used as chattel.
Gooooooooooooooo Team!
breadprincess
2013-03-18 07:24:22 AM  
3 votes:

Arcturus72: feckingmorons: That is brilliant. It is so simple, yet people think it is a joke.

Don't want to be labeled a rapist, don't be a rapist.

I just found it odd that none of these idiots actually believed that they'd raped her, because they didn't have to "Force themselves on her"...

Kinda hard to fight back when you're too drunk to even be awake, right? So that made it all right?

The kids were morons, and must have watched Varsity Blues a few too many times, thinking that it was acceptable behavior...


You'd be shocked at the amount of cognitive dissonance that goes on in the head of a rapist. My rapist didn't think he raped me, even though I said no and tried to push him off (he was a good 100 lbs heavier and 5 inches taller than me, so it did jack all, but I did the best I could to try and get him off of me) because we were dating so he thought he "deserved it" and "he just couldn't help himself" (his words). I was the same age as the victim in this case and didn't tell anyone or talk about it at all for six years because I was a "good girl" and a virgin when it happened, and everyone knows that only slutty "bad girls" get raped, amirite?
WaitWhatWhy
2013-03-18 06:46:54 AM  
3 votes:

cman: kingoomieiii: The problem is that no one even gives a shiat about the victim. I don't care AT ALL what a rapist's future plans were, and I CERTAINLY don't think those plans should be part and parcel of the post-verdict discussion.

That is kind of a difficult subject for discussion on news stations.

Most times news organizations dont name the victims of sexual assault, especially when they are minors.

It is very likely that the people who are on news TV (such as pundits) have no basic information. What do we know about her? She's 16 and she went to a party and got drunk. Not much to go on.


We also know she got raped, which seems kind of important.
rynthetyn
2013-03-18 04:39:44 AM  
3 votes:
When it comes down to it, when it takes Anonymous, who are hardly the paragons of virtue and good taste, raising a stink for anything to happen, it demonstrates just how messed up our culture is. If something appalls them, you know it's bad, yet the media didn't give a crap until Anonymous made it too big of a story to go away.
trappedspirit
2013-03-18 10:46:35 PM  
2 votes:

tlars699: Teaching everybody that rape is not funny, EVER;


Rape can be funny.  Death can be funny.  Dementia can be funny.  Genocide can be funny.  AIDS can be funny.  Bankruptcy can be funny.  Unemployment can be funny.  Everything can be funny.  And does not imply condoning the behavior or events.  The 40lbs box of rape is funny because that's what it said.  It's funny because it is ludicrous to consider quantifying rape in pounds, containing it in a box, or what would happen when opened.  I do know several rape jokes that could seem offensive or even threatening if told to enough random people.  I make a point of always taking context and audience into consideration with all of my speech, not just jokes.  I work with a black guy I can share the latest racial joke I've heard to.  But there are boundaries there too and some I just don't care to share with him.  I know some domestic violence jokes that I've got to know someone for a while before they will get brought up.  Whereas there are more people than I share them with who would enjoy them, I do not want to share them with someone who might actually want to hi-five afterwards.  Or have some similar sentimentality.

Rape is not funny.  Rape jokes, as with any jokes, are very much context, intent and content sensitive.
The Muthaship
2013-03-18 07:29:44 PM  
2 votes:

Popcorn Johnny: Half the people here couldn't care less about facts, in typical Fark fashion, they're against the jocks.


They've been convicted.  There's really no other place to be than against what they did.  The law does require that they be proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt (or adjudicated delinquent beyond a reasonable doubt since they're juveniles).  The law does not require that to be proven to you specifically.  People have told you over and over that the evidence in a juvenile case is not made public very often.  However, there was a report on the radio today that said 3 eye witnesses testified to the acts of these two individuals.  These 3 had recorded video of the girl naked and were granted immunity to testify to what was done to the girl..

Now, if you're just enjoying being a thorn in everyone's side in this thread, carry on and enjoy.  But, I wanted to make sure you knew that your incessant restatement of a question that has been settled in a court of law is tedious, in case that was not your purpose.
Mouser
2013-03-18 06:35:20 PM  
2 votes:

cman: How does one teach others not to rape?


Public hangings come to mind.
juvandy
2013-03-18 05:47:38 PM  
2 votes:

Genevieve Marie: Honestly I think that's what's so shocking about this case. There were a lot of people there, and apparently not one teenager at that party had been taught how to look out for others or what to do if they saw a young woman being abused.


If you watch the repulsively heinous video that was made by some of the other boys at the party, you hear snippets from at least 2-3 other boys saying it is rape and the boys doing it are bad, going to hell, etc. I think at least some of them genuinely knew it was wrong, but alcohol mixed with peer pressure made them unwilling to do anything to address it. Fundamentally, the scenario isn't that much different from "trains" in gang culture. I can't remember the author/title, but I read an autobiography a while back written by a reformed gang member from the 70s/80s, and his experience in a similar situation was that he was appalled, but at the same time didn't want to show weakness in front of his "brothers" and also wanted to lose his virginity. It's sickening, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the mindset of the other boys there.
deana
2013-03-18 05:09:04 PM  
2 votes:

Biological Ali: serial_crusher: Suppose somebody breaks into your house and steals all your stuff, so you mosey on down to the police station to file a report. Cop starts asking tough questions like "did you leave the door unlocked?", "do you have a dog?", "oh, you forgot to set your alarm system that day?"

What the fark? I've reported missing/stolen property in the past and haven't been asked any of those questions. What earthly reason would there even be for asking something like "Do you have a dog?"


One night, a cab driver apparently thought since I had been drinking, it was acceptable to put his hands on me.  I reported him.  The responding police officers asked me at least 4 times "were you drunk?", "were you intoxicated?", "had you been drinking?", etc.  Um, duh.  This is why I called the cab.

I got a call about a month later telling me that the WEEK BEFORE (3 weeks after I filed the complaint), the investigator called the cab company and that they denied having anyone with his name/description working there.

I was horrified at the number of people throughout the process (including friends) who blamed me for sitting in the front seat, for not getting out of the car (we were going 65 mph down the freeway), etc., and I was just TOUCHED by the guy.

You know if he did that to me, I wasn't the first or last...but the system didn't seem all that concerned.
Genevieve Marie [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 04:45:01 PM  
2 votes:

WhippingBoy: The other thing is that I'm constantly told about how wonderful it is to be a man and how good I've got it by people who have no idea what it's like. Because I've got it so "good", any concern or problem I may have, no matter how real or overwhelming it is to me, can safely be summarily dismissed by a simple "Oh noes, what about the menz?"


For what it's worth, I spend a lot of time in feminist communities and I've never seen the "But what about the menz" reaction used when a man is bringing up a sincere point about something in his life that's difficult. When it does come up is when women are discussing gendered violence and other problems that disproportionately affect women and some guy pops in and tries to make the conversation about men instead.

I think actually there needs to be more dialogue about the problems young men face growing up, particularly the lack of emotional outlets we provide for them. I just don't see a thread about violence towards a woman as the appropriate place to talk about the difficulties of being a man.
Celerian
2013-03-18 03:46:03 PM  
2 votes:

Genevieve Marie: Pangea: Genevieve Marie: So we're supposed to constantly take responsibility for protecting ourselves from rape and yet not talk about the ways in which we do that, lest we be considered paranoid, or like we're crazy and we think all men are potential rapists.


I've never accused a woman of being too paranoid based on a description of ways in which she protects herself. It would be something like preemptively incapacitating a perceived attacker with pepper spray before he actually did anything.

My issue is with women who say, "Is it too hard to teach men not to rape?"  Because that's precisely when they reposition the argument into accusing me of a being a rapist based solely on my gender.

How is my ability to do "teach" such a thing that is obvious to me, any different than her ability to "teach" it. I promise I would reprogram the minds of an entire culture if I knew how.

Not all men are rapists, but it's a statistical fact that most rapists are men. If that makes you uncomfortable I'm sorry, but it's factual. It's also factual that there's a weird gender dynamic surrounding sex, which I've described a few times, and it produces situations like this one.

So while it is obvious to you how sexual consent works, there are other men who it is clearly not obvious to and it would benefit society if that conversation became as much a part of raising a child as don't cheat, lie, steal, beat people up or talk back to adults.

The worst that happens in that situation is that all of the great young men who already have positive ideas about sex and sexuality have to sit through yet another boring lecture about something they already understand.


I don't have a problem with education relating to consent. I was fortunate enough to have people in my life that taught me how to respect others, so I don't think there's any likelihood that I would ever even consider rape. However, these sorts of discussions are usually brought up by people with strong feminist leanings, and I feel like the line blurs so much when they get to speaking. It rarely starts as a general "Why don't we have some sort of class in our public school that teach children how to treat each other with dignity and respect and not commit crimes against one another." It usually starts out as, "We should teach MEN not to rape WOMEN." and quickly devolves into "farkING FILTHY MALE PIGDOGS KEEP LOOKING AT WOMEN LIKE WE'RE PIECES OF MEAT AND EVERYTHING THEY DO IS EVIL AND SEXIST AND EVERY MALE WOULD RAPE WOMEN IF THEY COULD."

Its saddens me that people have to feel this way, but this is sentiment that I have heard from people who are barely dabbling in feminism. Even moreso when you start taking on, "I'm a woman studies major."

Why can't I be a feminist? No, fark that. I want to be a humanist. I'd rather people try to be decent to one another and not try to game our government aid programs or take advantage of their fellow man in any way, shape or form.

But we can't just "teach" a rapist not to rape. There's already been people referencing studies where rapists have psychological issues that makes their behavior feel completely normal to them. Besides, you can't target them until after their actually a rapist unless you start throwing out blanket generalizations to cover most people. So you just want to target men. And this is supposed to blanket enough people that it will have a significant impact against how many women are raped. It doesn't seem more beneficial to cover this in a general "DON'T BE A farkING shiatHEAD IN LIFE" course? It helps more to single out a gender and make a good 99% of the male population feel like we're already rapists for something we wish wasn't something anyone had to worry about?
ginandbacon
2013-03-18 03:06:53 PM  
2 votes:

Genevieve Marie: ginandbacon: I am getting a little pissed off at this idea that it is a victim's responsibility to undergo what I have heard is a terrible ordeal by reporting their own assault in order to prevent future rapes. It isn't and no one should have to face that kind of guilt trip. Ever. It is the rapist's responsibility to prevent rape. Full stop.

This has come up in threads before and it's always hard for me to read too.


It is shameful and disgusting. And I seriously hope none of the insensitive assholes is ever in a position to spew this crap at a victim. None of the women I know who were raped reported it and I don't see how that makes them any part of the problem we are discussing. I consider victims who do report to be almost incomprehensibly brave given how they are treated inmost cases by LE, doctors, the courts, and friends, family, and acquaintances. 

Guess what? If the victims of rape felt like it was safe to report rape,  they would.
RedT
2013-03-18 02:42:56 PM  
2 votes:

WhippingBoy: Why do you assume that people aren't already teaching this to their sons?


Eh, probably when we hear things like this:

The girl was completely naked on the floor, laying motionless on her side, not far from where she'd just puked out of the side of her mouth.

By her side was one of his teammates, Trent Mays, who Westlake testified was fully exposed and smacking his penis on the girl's hip. Laying behind her was another player, Ma'lik Richmond, whom Westlake testified he saw penetrating the girl with two fingers, "halfway to the knuckle."

"It wasn't what I expected to see," Westlake testified Friday at the Jefferson County Justice Center here in this old Eastern Ohio mill town, where Mays and Richmond stand trial for rape. "I wasn't really sure what to think."

Why didn't you stop it, special prosecutor Marianne Hemmeter asked?

"Well," Westlake said, "it wasn't violent. I didn't know exactly what rape was. I always pictured it as forcing yourself on someone."
tlars699
2013-03-18 02:25:20 PM  
2 votes:

WhippingBoy: tlars699: WhippingBoy: tlars699: I have to say that, as a woman, I took her meaning of  "Any concern about his safety" to be equivalent to the statement "Any concern of being raped", as she was talking about rape previously.

That I saw this, and you didn't, only points out how true her statement is...

Also, homophobia can be expressed as the fear that any man could or would treat you the same as you would treat a woman.

I give up. You're just going to interpret anything that doesn't support your narrow world view however you see fit.
How is it that you're even able to leave the house? The world is full of potential rapists that could strike at any given moment.

Not if I am with other people/other people are around who have the potential to observe such an act. You also can't live in fear at all times, as then nothing would get done. You just learn to be wary, and look over your shoulder frequently. It gets really freaky when I'm obviously the only one carting around my two small children across the dark parking lot to get into my apartment, but *shrugs* I'm glad you don't have to deal with it.

What do you mean "I don't have to deal with it"? Because I'm a man, bad things can't possibly happen to me? A guy in the apartment where I used to live was beat nearly to death one night because he decided to take a shortcut home from picking up milk for his two year old. He cut through a public school grounds and came upon the wrong group of people at the wrong time.
Do you honestly think that us men walk through the world without concern? With the exception of rape, men are statistically more likely to be victims of violence than women.


What? No. I don't think you men walk around without concern for your safety.
 I think you walk around without concern that you will be raped.

Your previous argument that I live in a constant "paranoid" fear that I may be raped at any given opportunity is correct.
It is ALWAYS in my mind that I could be attacked, especially when vulnerable.

I'm glad that your lack of concern about such is apparent, and that you don't have to worry about being physically violated in places most people keep intimately guarded, unlike me.
You worry about being robbed, beaten, killed. I worry about being robbed, beaten, killed, AND RAPED.
Do you see the difference?
BarkingUnicorn
2013-03-18 02:20:57 PM  
2 votes:

Popcorn Johnny: Waxing_Chewbacca: You're working way to hard to find innocence. "Hey... Maybe it was aliens" is next.

I'm not trying to find innocence at all, merely pointing out that you don't convict people without evidence. If there are photos of the two guys with their fingers up her snatch and her obviously passed out, then they're guilty. Maybe the judge should be making public what evidence exists rather than having a lot of people questioning the validity of his ruling.


Your right to know does not trump a rape victim's right to the remaining shreds of her privacy.  That battle is long over and you lost.

A judge who gives a shiat about what the public thinks is unqualified to judge.
sodomizer
2013-03-18 02:07:39 PM  
2 votes:
Who "ruined" their lives?

They did.

Who's going to fix this girl's ruined life?

crickets
tlars699
2013-03-18 01:38:24 PM  
2 votes:

WhippingBoy: tlars699: I have to say that, as a woman, I took her meaning of  "Any concern about his safety" to be equivalent to the statement "Any concern of being raped", as she was talking about rape previously.

That I saw this, and you didn't, only points out how true her statement is...

Also, homophobia can be expressed as the fear that any man could or would treat you the same as you would treat a woman.

I give up. You're just going to interpret anything that doesn't support your narrow world view however you see fit.
How is it that you're even able to leave the house? The world is full of potential rapists that could strike at any given moment.


Not if I am with other people/other people are around who have the potential to observe such an act. You also can't live in fear at all times, as then nothing would get done. You just learn to be wary, and look over your shoulder frequently. It gets really freaky when I'm obviously the only one carting around my two small children across the dark parking lot to get into my apartment, but *shrugs* I'm glad you don't have to deal with it.
RedT
2013-03-18 12:46:50 PM  
2 votes:

WhippingBoy: RedT: WhippingBoy: Unless you've been one at some point in your life, please don't purport to "know" what it's like to be a man.

I had no idea you were afraid of being raped when you are out on an early morning run in a low crime area.

My apologies.

Don't be an idiot. I was responding to this part of your comment:  I sincerely doubt any man who I saw running on that same loop had ANY concern about his safety beyond tripping over a root and busting his own ass.


You don't seem to get it at all.  I had no concern over being jumped and mugged by a roving gang of hoodlums on this otherwise safe trail (as I stated in my original post). I am not paranoid.  This isn't the 'hood at dark.  This isn't a shady unsafe place.  This isn't any place that any reasonable person would be concerned about getting mugged or randomly jumped (and because, runners aren't usually carrying anything valuable), I guess a mentally disturbed person off their meds might be out there, but that isn't my concern.

But like, well pretty much any dark sparsely populated place anywhere a gal goes, she DOES have to be concerned about being raped and to the male population (even you) concern over being a victim of rape is never a blip on your radar (and I'm not saying a man has never been raped, but very few men are ever concerned that they will be raped).  of all the things you are allegedly afraid of when you run in a park at night, all of the women in that very same park ALSO have to be aware of the potential for rape and this is not because it is uncommon.

Women are taught to ALWAYS be aware of that potential, because the potential is always there.  And yes, I am going to make the logical presumption that YOU as a man have no farking clue.
Waxing_Chewbacca
2013-03-18 12:23:20 PM  
2 votes:

Popcorn Johnny: Waxing_Chewbacca: You saw pics. You heard stories about her condition!!! She was beyond wasted!!! Do believe she COULD consent? Apparently yes.

At what point of the evening were those pics taken? Her friend testified that she had been drinking and willingly left with the two guys. You want us to believe that she was all Weekend at Bernied and being dragged around from party to party or something.

You seem to think it's impossible that she could have gave consent and that's just not true.


See here... Sobered up later and wanted it. As I said.. You're a farking troglodyte
Waxing_Chewbacca
2013-03-18 11:54:37 AM  
2 votes:

Popcorn Johnny: Waxing_Chewbacca: You saw pics. You heard stories about her condition!!! She was beyond wasted!!! Do believe she COULD consent? Apparently yes.

At what point of the evening were those pics taken? Her friend testified that she had been drinking and willingly left with the two guys. You want us to believe that she was all Weekend at Bernied and being dragged around from party to party or something.

You seem to think it's impossible that she could have gave consent and that's just not true.


You are either beyond obtuse or working on your own defense.
seadoo2006
2013-03-18 11:44:59 AM  
2 votes:

Popcorn Johnny: Waxing_Chewbacca: So there was NO sex. Didn't happen. She passed out and pics were taken. That's what you believe? I think we can agree she was in no condition to consent which is as good as a NO in my book.

I never said there was no sex, the guys admitted to finger banging her. What's disputed is whether or not it was consensual. I've seen no proof that it was or wasn't. In a court, lack of proof goes to the defendant each and every time.


The law says, pretty clearly, that consent cannot be given if you are under the influence of alcohol. You MUST be sober under Ohio law to give sexual consent.

Also, if you're passed out on the ground with people joking that you're "dead", you cannot give consent.

This isn't that hard to understand.
HAMMERTOE
2013-03-18 11:34:57 AM  
2 votes:

vudukungfu: What kind of parents do these animals have?


I think it might be more than just the parents. After all, the entire thread is about how three reporters have taken up for these degenerates, excusing their actions, and framing their reports in the context of how the perpetrators are somehow "victimized" by the incredibly light consequences of their own actions. The media is probably more culpable than they are willing to admit. From the graphic depiction of horrible acts, to the objectification and degradation of women, to simple talking points like "rape-rape", they down-play the significance of common human decency and mutual respect. A parent has to pretty much become a dreaded "helicopter parent" to battle the constant assault of such imagery.
PiffMan420
2013-03-18 11:34:29 AM  
2 votes:

kingoomieiii: Also, I liked all the people talking about how this is a "cautionary tale" about using social media. In the old days, athletes beat rape charges by hiding evidence, not posting it online!


If it wasn't for Anon, this case would have been completely buried.
Waxing_Chewbacca
2013-03-18 11:17:09 AM  
2 votes:

vudukungfu: What kind of parents do these animals have?


Useless ones
vudukungfu [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 11:12:55 AM  
2 votes:
What kind of parents do these animals have?
RedT
2013-03-18 11:04:15 AM  
2 votes:

WhippingBoy: Unless you've been one at some point in your life, please don't purport to "know" what it's like to be a man.


I had no idea you were afraid of being raped when you are out on an early morning run in a low crime area.

My apologies.
I_C_Weener [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 11:01:21 AM  
2 votes:

The Muthaship: Popcorn Johnny: It needs to take a hell of a lot more than a woman saying she was raped before sending people to jail for it.

Ohio requires corroborating evidence in any case of sexual assault.


Well, lets see what we know.  They admit to sexual contact, including penetration with their fingers.  They claim consent.  She denies consent.  They post pictures of her in a condition making it impossible (objectively) for her to consent to anything.  So...her word on consent plus their video of her incapable of consent plus their making fun of her condition, on video, that she's like dead.

Pretty open and shut as far as I can see.  They admit she's incapable of consent by her being "dead".  They video her in a condition that makes it clear she's incapable of consent.  They admit to the sexual contact including penetration.  I can't imagine them not being convicted in a criminal setting under these circumstances, much less a juvenile setting.

To claim they are innocent at this point is naive at best.
T. Dawg
2013-03-18 10:07:06 AM  
2 votes:

doglover: ginandbacon: To me, it indicates that the US needs to get its farking act together as a culture when it comes to confronting sexual predation.

Step One: REPORT IT.

Step Two: REPORT IT.

Step Three: REPORT IT.


I wish I'd been together enough to report what happened to me, but it was so terrifying and messed up that I spent ten years not even admitting to myself that I had been raped, and telling myself to just be happy I was alive and hadn't had my name smeared in public (both of my rapists were American Heroes back in '02, and one was married). I *knew* it couldn't have been rape because no one would believe me, for all of the "traditional" victim-blaming reasons.

I really do hope we can strengthen our culture to the point where women and men feel there is a strong enough network of support to report rape. It is going to take a lot of work starting with teaching the very young the value of all human beings.
give me doughnuts
2013-03-18 10:03:49 AM  
2 votes:

hubiestubert: These young men are damn lucky to have gotten off this easy, and not in someplace, like say, Texas, where a judge might have looked askance if the young men happened to have had horrible accidents like falling onto a couple of baseball bats several dozen times, or drowned themselves in their own toilets...


If it was Texas, these boys would never have seen a bit of trouble. High-school football is a religion down there.
The victim's family would be facing constant harrassment and threats, her parents would probably lose their jobs, and their house would "mysteriously" burn down.
ginandbacon
2013-03-18 09:39:58 AM  
2 votes:

liam76: ginandbacon: How on earth does anyone object to the term rape culture? What else would you call the mores of a group that condone and minimize the horror of sexual assault?

I think people are objecting to it being broadly applied to the US.


What's wrong with it being applied in general to this country? 

"The majority of sexual assaults are not reported to the authorities.
The Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) reports that the majority of rapes and sexual assaults perpetrated against women and girls in the United States between 1992 and 2000 were not reported to the police. Only 36 percent of rapes, 34 percent of attempted rapes, and 26 percent of sexual assaults were reported.

Self-blame or guilt.Shame, embarrassment, or desire to keep the assault a private matter.Humiliation or fear of the perpetrator or other individual's perceptions.Fear of not being believed or of being accused of playing a role in the crime.Lack of trust in the criminal justice system.According to the National Institute of Justice. How is that not indicative of a US-wide problem with rape culture?
Jorn the Younger
2013-03-18 09:20:47 AM  
2 votes:
It seems to me that a large part of the problem is how we, as a culture, approach the topic of sex, especially along gender lines.  Sex is treated like a commodity, like a possession.  Guys "get laid"1 and it doesn't seem too much of a stretch that a guy who feels he deserves this commodity will attempt to take it.  But sex isn't something someone gets, has2, or is given.  Sex is something two (or more, if you're into that) people do.

When my lady and I are intimate, we are engaging in a mutually pleasurable activity together, because we both want to.

I'm also troubled by the "sex = manhood" mindset.  Whether or not I have engaged in sexual activity has nothing to do with whether or not I'm a Man.  One is a Man when one behaves as a Man, and acts as a Man should (With honour, courage, and nobility, for a start).  I don't want to threadjack this into a discussion of what makes a Man, so I'm not going to elaborate further, but "has experienced sex" doesn't appear anywhere in the list.


1. yes, I know some women use the same terminology, but that's a recent development, and an indication of a relaxation of moral standards than maintained women weren't supposed to be interested in sex, which is tangentical to what I'm talking about
2. has as in possesses
juvandy
2013-03-18 08:59:40 AM  
2 votes:

BarkingUnicorn: I think rape is unique because of the element of consent. Investigations must determine if there was or wan't any. An unbiased investigation must explore both possibilities. A lot of people seem to have a problem with one of the possibilities being explored. Perhaps they don't want victims traumatized. Perhaps they don't want unbiased investigations.

The problem goes beyond police, though. Everyone thinks he/she is an investigator, even of things that happen on the other side of the farking planet.


Agreed- rape exposes a significant flaw in our legal system. To convict someone of a crime, there must be proof beyond reasonable doubt that the person committed the crime. In many instances of rape, especially if it was not obviously injurious, and doubly so if the victim does not seek medical attention or police action immediately, there may be little, if any, physical evidence. If the rape also occurred in a secluded location, then the only evidence available are eyewitness accounts, which, even if honestly recounted by the victim, have been repeatedly shown to be unreliable in stressful situations.

So how do we fix that flaw? We can't lock up people just because they are accused of rape- they are as entitled to due process as anyone else. Neither can we ignore the victims and let rape go unpunished. I don't think we solve any of the problems raised in this thread until we resolve this issue.
sobe
2013-03-18 08:59:05 AM  
2 votes:
I bet both of these kids went to some sort of church - not only should their parents be humiliated for raising sons like this, but also whichever priest/pastor/reverend/rabbi/iman/chaplain that was their "spiritual leader".
verbaltoxin
2013-03-18 08:58:36 AM  
2 votes:

doubled99: "rape culture"
Anyone who even uses this term should just stick to writing essays for their women's studies course.


Next time you have a thought, let it go.
Yogimus
2013-03-18 08:50:20 AM  
2 votes:

poot_rootbeer: Young men (and women) need to be taught that in ANY situation except one where consent is clearly and freely given, do not proceed. No means no, but a lot of other things mean no, too.


You assume it's a misunderstanding. A lion doesn't give two shiats about how the gazelle feels.  Most rape is predation. It is not a spontaneous event. The mark is chosen, groomed, separated from the crowd, and preyed upon.  That whole "I thought she wanted it" is just a lie they tell after the fact, often to themselves as well as others.
wickedragon
2013-03-18 08:26:20 AM  
2 votes:

jso2897: wickedragon: jso2897: Yogimus: stuffstuffstuff

Have you read about Halden prison? Worth a look if you have ten minutes to spare.

I don't have any time to spare on "reading assignments" - if you've something to say, and citation to support it, I'll be happy to listen.


It's a prison that treats the inmates as people, no matter what they've done to deserve prison time. They get a modicrum of freedom, education and worthwhile jobs all the while being given trust and respect from the prison staff.
Even though they take in murderes and rapists violence is unheard of inside the prison walls and recidivism rates seems very low (although the prison is to new to give any sort of accurate reading of such yet). Inmates leave the prison as better people than they were when they went in. Seems like a good thing.
thecpt
2013-03-18 08:21:00 AM  
2 votes:

Bontesla: We, as a society, are responsible for this.


I like what you're saying but we can't blame everyone.  People don't know the basics, like what cops will do if a woman was abused.  Victims don't know procedure, and could get bad information on what to do since it is never taught in schools.  I would start there with blame.  I had to go to several sexual assault classes during schoold because my demographic was the rapiest apparently.  They are insightful on the law and what victims/criminals go through, not to mention getting an entire group of people to shoot off any question they can think of.  One class every month during health class for one year would be a vast improvement.

/but no, we have to teach abstinence during that time
//people have to learn how to not have sex?
StrangeQ
2013-03-18 08:19:06 AM  
2 votes:

basemetal: Meh, people can talk to the points of the victim not putting themselves in compromising situations, but the fact remains that you don't take sexual advantage of people who are not able to defend or consent for themselves.  I'm sure these boys have been told this, if not, then their parents failed them, because anymore, you damn well better have a talk to your kid about legalities of such behavior.

/sad for both sides
//but it's hard to garner any sympathy for the boys


They were jocks and more specifically football players.  They had been raised their entire lives to believe that the rules did not apply to them.

/fark em
jso2897 [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 07:58:43 AM  
2 votes:

Yogimus: jso2897: In a sense - yes - these boys are victims. But we need to be very clear with ourselves as to what they are victims of.
They are not victims of a slutty girl, or an over zealous prosecutor.
They are victims of a society adrift, whose values have grown warped. A society that told them they could do whatever they wanted as long as they pertformed well on the all-important playing field. A society that didn't bother to even try to teach them anything about being men - as opposed to merely male apes.
A society that taught them that sex is a commodity, and just another form of power to be abused.
To his credit, in court one of the boy's fathers had the stones to tearfully admit that maybe if he had found the time to be there for his son, things might have ended differently.
And it is probably too late for them. Our record of rehabilitating teen sociopaths is very poor - I doubt that they have much more of a chance than the average gangbanger (of the OTHER kind) who shoots somebody and gets caught. But yeah - they are victims.

If we(and by "we" I mean us largely male Farkers) take anything away from this, it needs to be that we need to be fathers to our sons, and teach them to be men. We can't blame the women in their lives for our failure to do that.
Like the man said : "Raise you motherf**kin' kids".

No. They are not victims. I understand the point you are trying to make, and I respect your opinion, but I must disagree. When life sets you on a course that puts you in this situation, you STILL must make a decision as to what you should do.


Let's not have a semantic argument - perhaps I could have put the word "victim" in quotes? We both know what I am saying, and we both know that I am not arguing that they are in any way absolved of responsibility for their own actions. The mistreatment of humans by other humans is a chain of events - a chain that needs to be broken, if you want it to stop.
Yogimus
2013-03-18 07:30:11 AM  
2 votes:

breadprincess: I was the same age as the victim in this case and didn't tell anyone or talk about it at all for six years because I was a "good girl" and a virgin when it happened, and everyone knows that only slutty "bad girls" get raped, amirite?


You ever wonder how many of his other girlfriends got to go through what you did because you said nothing?
The Muthaship
2013-03-18 07:25:41 AM  
2 votes:
Now go get the rest of them.  Including the cops and prosecutor that tried to impede justice.
Befuddled
2013-03-18 07:11:43 AM  
2 votes:

Relatively Obscure: Also, who the hell is surprised when CNN sucks anymore?


The half-dozen or so people who still watch CNN?

I can remember being a hormone-filled teenager and there were dumb girls around who would get shiatfaced drunk at parties but the idea of raping them never came up so blaming this on youth is stupid. In fact the attitude was usually just the opposite in that basically everyone stayed away as it felt like doing anything with them in that state was opening a door to a world of trouble. These two thought they were above the rules because of their status which is why they went ahead and did what they did.
Bontesla
2013-03-18 06:59:13 AM  
2 votes:

WaitWhatWhy: cman: kingoomieiii: The problem is that no one even gives a shiat about the victim. I don't care AT ALL what a rapist's future plans were, and I CERTAINLY don't think those plans should be part and parcel of the post-verdict discussion.

That is kind of a difficult subject for discussion on news stations.

Most times news organizations dont name the victims of sexual assault, especially when they are minors.

It is very likely that the people who are on news TV (such as pundits) have no basic information. What do we know about her? She's 16 and she went to a party and got drunk. Not much to go on.

We also know she got raped, which seems kind of important.


This should get you sponsored.
Remind me later to do so.
Warlordtrooper
2013-03-18 06:57:47 AM  
2 votes:
This may come as a shock but discussing the effects that the sex offenders registry have on society and helping the victims are not mutually exclusive. You can do both

God forbid we discuss the way the registry creates more problems then it solves. It's impossible now days to have a rational discussion about sex crimes
Aar1012 [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 06:47:43 AM  
2 votes:

basemetal: I'm sure these boys have been told this, if not, then their parents failed them, because anymore, you damn well better have a talk to your kid about legalities of such behavior.


I'm sorry but there is something about this line that bothers me. It's an important thing to teach, don't get me wrong, but shouldn't you first teach that it is highly immoral and unethical to rape? Shouldn't we teach that rape is bad because we, as human beings, are equals and no one should have power over another in such a way?
Arcturus72
2013-03-18 06:38:44 AM  
2 votes:

feckingmorons: That is brilliant. It is so simple, yet people think it is a joke.

Don't want to be labeled a rapist, don't be a rapist.


I just found it odd that none of these idiots actually believed that they'd raped her, because they didn't have to "Force themselves on her"...

Kinda hard to fight back when you're too drunk to even be awake, right? So that made it all right?

The kids were morons, and must have watched Varsity Blues a few too many times, thinking that it was acceptable behavior...
jaybeezey
2013-03-18 06:33:50 AM  
2 votes:

SilentStrider: Imdo take some solace. Even if CNN has their head up their ass, Anon doesn't. I hope they hound these rapists and make their post prison lives a living hell.


Please don't go through life thinkin Anon has some higher calling to do good for the sake of good.
GopherGuts
2013-03-18 06:24:08 AM  
2 votes:
If something like this had happened to one of my sisters, the rapists would not have had a sentencing hearing to cry in.

Oh, there would have been a brief trial. One or both of my parents would have stood trial for shooting the motherfarking rapist scum to death. Their defense would have been "Yes, we did it. We were right to do it. Given the same circumstances, we'd do it again. Fark you if you don't like it."
Genevieve Marie [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 04:14:49 AM  
2 votes:
Ooh. This is a great piece about exactly why this particular case demonstrates rape culture so well.

http://cognoscenti.wbur.org/2013/03/12/steubenville-sarah-sobieraj
Genevieve Marie [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 03:51:04 AM  
2 votes:

violentsalvation: I realized I had to do a bunch of ironing for the coming week, so I'm still up, and just typing this I'm remembering I need to fill up the dog water pails. I'll do what I can, GM. I'm trying to teach kids to pitch for my church's youth baseball team, they're young adults really. I will see to it I get a "respect the no" speech in.

I really do want to help, even though we disagree a whole hell of a lot.


And that's awesome and I respect the hell out of that. Throw in a "And it's never ok to call a girl a whore" speech too if you can.

Honestly, I think if you spent some time really reading about what feminists mean when they say rape culture, you wouldn't find the term nearly as loaded or as offensive. It sounds like to some degree, you do recognize it, you just don't use that term.
violentsalvation [recently expired TotalFark]
2013-03-18 03:48:25 AM  
2 votes:

Genevieve Marie: violentsalvation: Yup, I'm a troll, OKAY. I was trying to sidestep you, guess that didn't work. Sorry if you think our culture inherently condones rape. But there are plenty of us who want to help and change things without trodding on a pile of neofeministic bullshiat like "rape culture".

sigh

I'm going to bed. Take care.

I should have probably phrased that differently and used the verb instead of the noun, but what you were doing is generally referred to as concern trolling. It's not the same thing as trolling in general- it's professing to be concerned about an issue, but then objecting to how others address that issue without offering a better alternative or a reasoned criticism.

And yes, our culture inherently condones rape. That's the entire issue here. That's what this case was all about. You should be able to look at what happened here and at least acknowledge that these young men were surrounded by adults who were more interested in preserving the status quo than they were in doing what was right. That none of them had been taught basic ideas about sexual consent.

This is something  feminists have been discussing for years and years and years- but generally, when we make that point, it gets laughed off as "neofeministic bullshiat" and people deny that it exists. And then when a case pops up that shows that we've got a point, people react by criticizing how we make that point.

It's a bit exhausting. If you're actually interested in helping to change that cultural attitude, maybe you should stop writing off other people's opinions just because they're not phrased in a way that's designed to make you comfortable.


I realized I had to do a bunch of ironing for the coming week, so I'm still up, and just typing this I'm remembering I need to fill up the dog water pails. I'll do what I can, GM. I'm trying to teach kids to pitch for my church's youth baseball team, they're young adults really. I will see to it I get a "respect the no" speech in.

I really do want to help, even though we disagree a whole hell of a lot.
Bucky Katt [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 01:27:40 AM  
2 votes:

GAT_00: Lionel Mandrake: Seemed like pretty typical shiatty tabloid-esque coverage to me.  I didn't think the women were too horrible, but they were far from good.  The guy sounded pretty dickish.

Yeah, they should have shown some concern for the victim, but without a name, a face, and some sobbing on film, they don't have much.

About what I'd expect from CNN

But it gives such a good excuse for people who claim they never ever watch CNN to get outraged.


Is there anyone who claims to actually watch CNN?
hubiestubert [TotalFark]
2013-03-17 11:53:05 PM  
2 votes:
These young men are damn lucky to have gotten off this easy, and not in someplace, like say, Texas, where a judge might have looked askance if the young men happened to have had horrible accidents like falling onto a couple of baseball bats several dozen times, or drowned themselves in their own toilets...
borg [TotalFark]
2013-03-17 11:27:00 PM  
2 votes:

feckingmorons: I have absolutely no sympathy for rapists.

They're lives weren't ruined when they were adjudicated delinquent (in juvenile court that is tantamount to a guilty verdict), their lives were ruined when they decided to be rapists.

They'll be in detention for a year or at most until they are 21.

Big fecking deal.


Do they have to register as sex offenders for the rest of their lives?  Thats what will ruin their lives and any chance of decent employment.
feckingmorons [TotalFark] [BareFark]
2013-03-17 11:17:44 PM  
2 votes:

GAT_00: bronyaur1: I find it curious that those who defend Fox journalism all of a sudden are outraged about this.

Meh, they have something legitimate to smear CNN with for a change.  Of course, since nobody actually watches CNN, this is really not doing a whole lot, but they like to pretend they matter.


GAT_00: bronyaur1: I find it curious that those who defend Fox journalism all of a sudden are outraged about this.

Meh, they have something legitimate to smear CNN with for a change.  Of course, since nobody actually watches CNN, this is really not doing a whole lot, but they like to pretend they matter.


I don't really watch any of the cable news stations (or broadcast news stations in the US for that matter) save the local cable one. Not that you can see this because you ignore opinions that are not in lockstep with yours.
cman [TotalFark]
2013-03-17 10:00:59 PM  
2 votes:

feckingmorons: cman: I think this is a foot in mouth moment.

If you read it it seems like she is disappointed that they threw their young lives away. She is not saying that the rapists are good people or that they don't deserve what they are about to expect, nor does she say anything bad about the victim or show the victim in any negative light.

TLDR; she could have said it better

Why be an apologist for these 'journalists'? They insist on giving us opinion rather than news. Journalism is dead in this country, we have hand wringing actors who bring us snippets of news cloaked in opinion and maudlin sentimentality.


Apologist?

Motherfarker I am always biatching about the media being News Entertainment (coined in the spirit of Vince McMahon's Sports Entertainment) instead of real news.
angrycrank
2013-03-19 01:14:44 PM  
1 vote:

Popcorn Johnny: angrycrank: So we have 3 witnesses, friends of the defendants

3 witnesses that were granted immunity. 3 witnesses that others claim were sexually assaulting the girl.


As I predicted - goalpost moving. Evidence that you chose not to believe, even though a judge did, and the defendants' own texts, which you chose to ignore, isn't "no" evidence, as you've been ranting for days across several threads.
wickedragon
2013-03-19 03:56:24 AM  
1 vote:

BarkingUnicorn: wickedragon: You're thinking short term. If the U.S. managed to get a recidivism rate equal to the Norwegian prison system the number of prisoners would drop by at least 25% (Recidivism being 20% in Norway and 60% in the U.S) as the first cycle of inmates leaves prison.
This would also mean that crime drops by 25%.
"The Aggregate Burden of Crime" published in 1999 in Journal of Law and Economic pegged the annual cost of crime at 1.7 Trillion dollars, meaning that a 25% drop would save 425 billion dollars annually, before adjusting from 15 years of inflation.
That means that you save every penny by building and running the 10000 Haldens, AND fewer people get their loved ones taken away, get raped or has their car stolen.

I think that would be nice.

Harden opened in 2010; it has contributed nothing to Norway's recidivism rate.

Reducing competition is a good thing for the surviving criminals.

I  can save money by buying a house, but that is not a good thing if I can't afford a down payment or maintenance.  It's a trap.


Norways other prisons isn't exactly much "harder". Bastøy is a holiday camp compared to us prisons, and spending the extra dough to avoid overcrowding and do a little damage control on the lives of the criminals through education (including social education) does seem to be worth it. You don't get as much sweet revenge from it but you do get a safer society.
angrycrank
2013-03-19 03:24:14 AM  
1 vote:
Oh. And we have the words of the charming Mr. Mays himself:

Some of the messages were between Mays and the alleged victim.

Mays responded that "nothing happened last night," but he told her in the message she performed a sex act on him, Gibb testified.

In some of the messages from Mays, according to Gibb, he writes that he had sex with the girl. In others, he says the girl performed a sex act on him.

One message asked Mays: " Did u do it?"
He responded, according to Gibb: "No, lol. She could barely move."
Still another graphic message from Mays to a friend appeared to detail his anger over being accused of rape.
"I'm pissed all I got was a hand job, though. I should have raped since everyone thinks I did," the message said, according to Gibb.

Face it. These two geniuses barely stopped short of posting notarized pictures of themselves on Facebook with the caption "lol look at us raping this drunk chick." And even if they had Popcorn Johnnyand his posse of rape apologists would still be screaming "There's no evidence! biatchez be liars and whores! Duke Lacrosse! Durrr!"
angrycrank
2013-03-19 03:13:34 AM  
1 vote:

Popcorn Johnny: I've yet to see any evidence that the two kids convicted were guilty of anything other than being douches. Another kid took the widely distributed photo of the girl being carried around and testimony in court said that the one teen stopped any sexual advances once he realized that the girl was unconscious.

Just so we're clear, the tweets talking about "you are so raped" were not sent by one of these two. One of these two did distribute a nude picture of the girl, so the child porn charge is warranted. Doesn't make him a rapist though.

I'll change my stance if somebody can show the evidence against these two.


From the CNN article  Genevieve Marie linked to;

The teen also told the court Mays later attempted to have the girl perform a sex act on him in the basement of a home, where they ended up after the initial alleged incident in the car.   "She didn't really respond to it," he said

A second witness, 18-year-old Evan Westlake, told the judge he saw Richmond digitally penetrate the girl in the basement of the home where they ended up after the parties.

A third witness, 18-year-old Anthony Craig, testified he saw Richmond digitally penetrate the girl in the basement.
"She wasn't moving. She wasn't talking. She wasn't participating," he told the court. Craig was identified in as a Steubenville High School wrestler and friend of Mays and Richmond.

So we have 3 witnesses, friends of the defendants, testifying that they saw them commit acts that constitute rape under Ohio law,  after the parties where there is photographic evidence and a ton of witness testimony and tweets from third parties that she was incapacitated. You planning to change your stance now as promised, or will you just move the goalposts some more?
Zumaki
2013-03-18 10:22:52 PM  
1 vote:
I think the sad thing here is if those two guys had just had sex with the girl, this would be a non-story or maybe just a small one. But they did so much more, and on top of that taped it, and then shared it around school. Sorry media, I can't have sympathy for those kids. People who have that sense of entitlement are dangerous, and we should all be considering ourselves lucky they didn't make it to college/NFL with egos like that.
Dragonflew
2013-03-18 08:04:29 PM  
1 vote:

Popcorn Johnny:  in typical Fark fashion, they're against the jocks.


Better than being for the rapists.
vudukungfu [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 07:28:18 PM  
1 vote:

Genevieve Marie: There should be more like you.


this
Genevieve Marie [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 07:26:41 PM  
1 vote:

Popcorn Johnny: Keizer_Ghidorah: Would you be so eager to defend them if they weren't young football players with "promising futures"?

Unlike a lot of the posters here, I don't give a fark that they're football players. Half the people here couldn't care less about facts, in typical Fark fashion, they're against the jocks.


Sigh. The facts are that this girl testified that she was passed out and does not remember the events of the evening because she was incapacitated. She knows she woke up without her clothes in someone's basement. The fact that she was passed out and unresponsive was corroborated by multiple eyewitnesses, and also discussed on film by party goers. The other relevant fact is that people testified to witnessing her be penetrated by these young men while she was unconscious.

This is the freaking motherload of evidence for a case like this. This is one of the most well documented sexual assaults I've ever seen. If you don't believe that this one occurred, it's because you have some really weird ideas about rape and you're not going to believe ANY victim.
Keizer_Ghidorah
2013-03-18 06:56:04 PM  
1 vote:

Popcorn Johnny: Keizer_Ghidorah: And since you don't know for a fact either, you're doing everything you can to defend the rapists and demean the victim.

I'm doing no such thing. All I'm doing is asking for evidence that they did anything other than what they claimed, had consensual sexual activity with a drunk chick at a party.

Most of you seem unable to comprehend that a picture showing a passed out, partially naked teenager being made fun of by other drunk teenagers does not mean she was raped.


I'm fairly certain that such evidence was presented at the trial, and it wasn't true or didn't help them, as they were found guilty. Would you be so eager to defend them if they weren't young football players with "promising futures"?
Genevieve Marie [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 06:48:22 PM  
1 vote:

Moonfisher: My seven-year-old son just wandered in and asked me what I was reading.  I took the initiative to give him an age-appropriate, brief synopsis of this event.  Told him a girl and some boys were drinking at a party, the girl got very drunk and fell asleep, and the boys thought it was funny to take pictures of her private parts and kiss her without asking.  He was aghast, and the first thing he asked me was, "Why didn't anybody else at the party stop them?"  I replied, "These were popular football players.  Maybe they were scared?" He angrily shook his head and said, "So leave and call the police!  What's wrong with those people?"

So when I read and hear people saying that boys will be boys or feeling pity for these entitled little sociopathic twits, I look at my own child who, at seven, is already more of a man than any of them, and I can still feel a little glimmer of hope.


See, that's good parenting. There should be more like you.
Genevieve Marie [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 06:39:33 PM  
1 vote:

ginandbacon: Genevieve Marie: Snowflake Tubbybottom: And I'll ask you again why you would ever have a problem with empowering women to come forth and put these bastards away for their crime? How could you possibly have a problem with that? You only further the problem by staying silent.

Her point is  that people react to sexual trauma in very different ways, and while empowering women to come forward is important, so is recognizing that not all rape victims are going to be able to do that and not shaming them for it.

He never said that we should empower women to report their assaults. He said that women were to blame if they didn't and their rapists committed another rape.


Ugh. Missed that part. Gross.

More victim blaming.
ginandbacon
2013-03-18 06:37:49 PM  
1 vote:

Genevieve Marie: Snowflake Tubbybottom: And I'll ask you again why you would ever have a problem with empowering women to come forth and put these bastards away for their crime? How could you possibly have a problem with that? You only further the problem by staying silent.

Her point is  that people react to sexual trauma in very different ways, and while empowering women to come forward is important, so is recognizing that not all rape victims are going to be able to do that and not shaming them for it.


He never said that we should empower women to report their assaults. He said that women were to blame if they didn't and their rapists committed another rape.
Biological Ali
2013-03-18 06:06:06 PM  
1 vote:

juvandy: no lasting physical evidence and no eyewitnesses


This is true for all kinds of crimes. Threatening someone with a weapon, for instance, is very much illegal, and the fact that there's no way to physically distinguish someone who was actually threatened from someone who wasn't threatened doesn't mean that the police and DA will just throw up their hands and surrender. People get investigated, prosecuted and convicted for crimes like this all the time.
Genevieve Marie [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 05:51:48 PM  
1 vote:

juvandy: Genevieve Marie: Honestly I think that's what's so shocking about this case. There were a lot of people there, and apparently not one teenager at that party had been taught how to look out for others or what to do if they saw a young woman being abused.

If you watch the repulsively heinous video that was made by some of the other boys at the party, you hear snippets from at least 2-3 other boys saying it is rape and the boys doing it are bad, going to hell, etc. I think at least some of them genuinely knew it was wrong, but alcohol mixed with peer pressure made them unwilling to do anything to address it. Fundamentally, the scenario isn't that much different from "trains" in gang culture. I can't remember the author/title, but I read an autobiography a while back written by a reformed gang member from the 70s/80s, and his experience in a similar situation was that he was appalled, but at the same time didn't want to show weakness in front of his "brothers" and also wanted to lose his virginity. It's sickening, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the mindset of the other boys there.


Yup, and that's definitely something that can and should be addressed in rape prevention education- the damage it does when someone sits back like that. Teaching teenagers how to be leaders and how to have the confidence and the moral fiber to react appropriately is something that in my opinion, can and should be done.

I mean, my parents drilled into me the need to watch out for others, and my freshman year of high school two girls got so drunk they passed out and people were hosing them with cold water to try and revive them. I flipped them onto their sides so they couldn't choke on their vomit and sat with them while someone else called the cops.

Both myself and the person who called the cops were ostracized a bit for a week or so after that, but neither of us cared, and no one died or got raped so we considered it a win.

If my parents could teach that, it CAN be taught.
Keizer_Ghidorah
2013-03-18 05:33:59 PM  
1 vote:
It's so sad and sick how there are still people who think that females being able to do anything beyond "be the property of men" justifies men raping them, beating them, and killing them. Their "She deserves to be "punished" for her transgression of getting drunk/stoned by being violently violated" attitude is also incredibly disgusting.
ginandbacon
2013-03-18 04:57:39 PM  
1 vote:

Genevieve Marie: There were a lot of people there, and apparently not one teenager at that party had been taught how to look out for others or what to do if they saw a young woman being abused.


That is what I find so mind-boggling. I don't know one single male who would have allowed this to happen in his presence much less a female. It's just shocking. I'm sure there are lot of young men and women (although not her two "supposed" friends who testified against her) who are spending some sleepless nights these days. But crikey. How do you get to the point where you can witness something like this and laugh about it?
Celerian
2013-03-18 04:55:28 PM  
1 vote:

Popcorn Johnny: Celerian: but just because they drink to unconsciousness  does not mean they have to be raped.

Two threads later and nobody has been able to prove this assumption.


Seriously, you are that farking retarded? I'm not making an assumption. I'm stating fact.

IF SOMEONE IS PASSED OUT DRUNK, THEY DO NOT REQUIRE SOMEONE TO RAPE THEM.

You can like, I don't know, leave them the fark alone. This is not an assumption.
Genevieve Marie [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 04:49:47 PM  
1 vote:

BarkingUnicorn: "What went wrong?" is an important question to ask. (It may be the most frequently asked question. :-) If the answer is, "Nothing we could have avoided," congratulations. If not, the next response is, "What can we do to avoid this in the future?" not, "You're a farking farkup who farked up."


And I think that's fair, but I also really don't like that it almost always comes down to insinuating that the victim's actions means they're partially at fault for the fact that someone else decided to perform a criminal act on them.

If people looking at this situation go "Ok, clearly we need to educate teenagers not just about alcohol, but about how to tell when someone else has had too much and how to respond in that situation" that's a positive reaction. If we look at it and say "Young women who have too much to drink are partially to blame if someone rapes them" then we're taking away the wrong lesson.

Honestly I think that's what's so shocking about this case. There were a lot of people there, and apparently not one teenager at that party had been taught how to look out for others or what to do if they saw a young woman being abused.
BarkingUnicorn
2013-03-18 04:39:56 PM  
1 vote:

Genevieve Marie: BarkingUnicorn: Genevieve Marie: This is the problem with making the narrative about the victim's choices. It always seems to conveniently gloss over the fact that the rapists had a choice too, and the one they made actually IS illegal.

When a problem is being adequately addressed in court, it is not being "glossed over."  A problem that is not being addressed merits discussion.

Except the idea that women have a responsibility to constantly watch out for rapists is not a problem that isn't being addressed. It's something that's been addressed ad nauseam. Ask almost any woman alive and she'll be able to give you a run down of all the ways in which she watches out for her personal safety at all times.


I have known an apparently unusual number of zombie women who are related to Alfred E. Neumann.

We're on that. We got it. Teaching women how not to get raped has been the core of rape prevention strategy forever. It's tiresome. We get it, and most of us follow all those little rules all of the time, but sometimes you have a bad night. I know there have definitely been a few nights in my life where for whatever reason, I had too much to drink. I wasn't raped though- because there wasn't a rapist in the room with me. That's the x factor. The decision to drink too much does not necessarily have destructive consequences.

Choosing the people you get drunk with is part of the program. (I bet you're a fun drunk, and I'm not trying to be creepy.)

It's not helpful or productive to look at cases where a woman passed out or otherwise let down her guard and point to that as the cause of the rape.

No, it isn't.  Looking at such cases as opportunities to improve future outcomes is.  NASA is careful all the time, too.  Nobody shied away from looking into Challenger.

"What went wrong?" is an important question to ask. (It may be the most frequently asked question. :-)  If the answer is, "Nothing we could have avoided," congratulations.  If not, the next response is, "What can we do to avoid this in the future?" not, "You're a farking farkup who farked up."
WhippingBoy
2013-03-18 04:08:09 PM  
1 vote:

ginandbacon: WhippingBoy: RedT: WhippingBoy:

 It's also statistically more likely that I'll be randomly killed (or have the quality of my life incredibly impacted) than you will be randomly raped (or killed).


Murder (in Canada)

One of every 17 Canadian women is raped at some point in her life.  Couldn't find an exact number, but according to Wiki for every 1.9 murders there are 68 sexual assaults (rape is not used in the Canadian legal code)

You may want to look at this (although you are not likely to believe any of it)

I believe every word of it. How many of these rapes were random, you intellectually dishonest, goalpost-moving cretin?

I'm going to cut you some slack but also take you to task for something else.

Slack: I don't actually worry much about getting raped because life is short and I know that if I am ever raped it will most likely be by someone I know and trust in an environment I consider safe. So it really isn't much more of an active consideration in my day to day existence than the possibility that I might be murdered which is very low even though I live in Baltimore (I jest.) I understand the point you are making, yet I think you are too quick to dismiss the fact that many women have a huge fear of rape. (Even if it is irrational, it is a byproduct of being told that we are responsible for preventing our own victimization while knowing that we are for the most part incapable of doing anything about it.)

The taking to task: Why have you spent so much time arguing this point in a thread about the kidnapping and repeated rape of a 16 year old girl and the subsequent slanted news coverage of the sentencing of her accusers? Stop and ask yourself if this is the best place to devote your energies right now and here. Is this really the best use of your intellect and heart?


Your criticism is valid and I agree; this is not an appropriate thread to discuss such things. My tail is firmly between my legs.
For what it's worth, what set me off is (my impression) of the general low esteem for men that tends to surface in these threads. I don't need to be taught how "not to rape", nor does any man I know or associate with. To constantly hear this platitude in every single one of these threads is somewhat frustrating (I understand why this is said, and I entirely agree with the sentiment behind it, but it seems to me to be painting with an incredibly broad brush). The other thing is that I'm constantly told about how wonderful it is to be a man and how good I've got it by people who have no idea what it's like. Because I've got it so "good", any concern or problem I may have, no matter how real or overwhelming it is to me, can safely be summarily dismissed by a simple "Oh noes, what about the menz?"
tlars699
2013-03-18 03:57:09 PM  
1 vote:

WhippingBoy: RedT: WhippingBoy:

 It's also statistically more likely that I'll be randomly killed (or have the quality of my life incredibly impacted) than you will be randomly raped (or killed).


Murder (in Canada)

One of every 17 Canadian women is raped at some point in her life.  Couldn't find an exact number, but according to Wiki for every 1.9 murders there are 68 sexual assaults (rape is not used in the Canadian legal code)

You may want to look at this (although you are not likely to believe any of it)

I believe every word of it. How many of these rapes were random, you intellectually dishonest, goalpost-moving cretin?


How many times have we said we were afraid of being assaulted by "strangers", hence your need fro random? Just because we have to be wary at all times of exposure, doesn't mean we think we won't know who this potential assaulter might be.  Doesn't mean the person who wants tovictimize you doesn't follow you around, just to see the best vantage point for them in your day.
We are aware of the fact that most of our rapists are people we know. You're the only one who has brought up "random" violence, just so you can dismiss us and our concern of pervasive cultural issues that concern rape.
IWood
2013-03-18 03:52:34 PM  
1 vote:

cman: I think this is a foot in mouth moment.

If you read it it seems like she is disappointed that they threw their young lives away. She is not saying that the rapists are good people or that they don't deserve what they are about to expect, nor does she say anything bad about the victim or show the victim in any negative light.

TLDR; she could have said it better


Yeah, it's not like her entire job is based on her ability to communicate or anything.
ginandbacon
2013-03-18 03:51:44 PM  
1 vote:

WhippingBoy: RedT: WhippingBoy:

 It's also statistically more likely that I'll be randomly killed (or have the quality of my life incredibly impacted) than you will be randomly raped (or killed).


Murder (in Canada)

One of every 17 Canadian women is raped at some point in her life.  Couldn't find an exact number, but according to Wiki for every 1.9 murders there are 68 sexual assaults (rape is not used in the Canadian legal code)

You may want to look at this (although you are not likely to believe any of it)

I believe every word of it. How many of these rapes were random, you intellectually dishonest, goalpost-moving cretin?


I'm going to cut you some slack but also take you to task for something else.

Slack: I don't actually worry much about getting raped because life is short and I know that if I am ever raped it will most likely be by someone I know and trust in an environment I consider safe. So it really isn't much more of an active consideration in my day to day existence than the possibility that I might be murdered which is very low even though I live in Baltimore (I jest.) I understand the point you are making, yet I think you are too quick to dismiss the fact that many women have a huge fear of rape. (Even if it is irrational, it is a byproduct of being told that we are responsible for preventing our own victimization while knowing that we are for the most part incapable of doing anything about it.)

The taking to task: Why have you spent so much time arguing this point in a thread about the kidnapping and repeated rape of a 16 year old girl and the subsequent slanted news coverage of the sentencing of her accusers? Stop and ask yourself if this is the best place to devote your energies right now and here. Is this really the best use of your intellect and heart?
Genevieve Marie [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 03:43:26 PM  
1 vote:

RobSeace: Genevieve Marie: When I say people should be taught not to rape what I mean is that teenagers need to be taught sexual consent. They need to understand that it is always their right to say no, but it is also their right to say yes. That sex is a positive thing when both partners enthusiastically consent and when proper medical precautions are taken. That's a healthy thing to teach.

I agree... But, good luck getting the religious right to go along with that lesson plan! They'd go utterly ape-shiat over that and accuse you of encouraging children to be promiscuous... They don't want them taught anything other than "Don't have sex!", and then you're supposed to stick your fingers in your ears and go "LA, LA, LA, I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" whenever anyone mentions they're not actually heeding that advice...


Yup. And that attitude and the promotion of purity culture is a serious contributor to rape culture and it's really, really frustrating.
tlars699
2013-03-18 03:42:54 PM  
1 vote:

ginandbacon: tlars699: As much as we hate to admit it, ladies, there are those of 'us' that take advantage of this system, and go about drugging/raping men as they are unconscious.

Wait, what?


That you have to ask kind of proves my point.
tlars699
2013-03-18 03:42:05 PM  
1 vote:

Bartleby the Scrivener: tlars699: It is far worse to be a survivor of rape [regardless of sex/gender], than it is to be a survivor of other physical violence [regardless of sex/gender] as rape is a violation of the most intimate places on a human body.

i disagree with you. unless you can provide some research that supports this absurd notion (which you won't because you can't) you are minimizing and trivializing the suffering of countless others who are victims or physical assault, drunk driving accidents, hazing, and any other number of ways that human beings can be vicious and cruel to each other.

under what code do you elevate the genitals of one person over the brain or internal organs of another? you are falsely constructing some bizarre hierarchy of suffering simply because you say the symbolism of one body part trumps another.

in the past i worked in MH/MR, and one guy i worked with was a smart guy, academic...before he got brained with a pipe. he then commenced to shout obscenities involuntarily and had to wear a diaper because of fecal and urinary incontinence. he was at least 4 years in when i got there, and he was still there when i left.

Please answer this question: Who are you to say that his suffering and "survivorship" is less than a victim of sexual assault?


Okay, I have three thoughts here.
1. Man that is unbelievably horrible, and you are so totally right- I retract my statement, and hereby correct it to make any assault equal in difficulty to survive.
2. He could have also been raped, and have his dignity shredded even further on top of all that other stuff.
3. I have had a male friend coerced into the (male on male)sex trade, while he was in the Army, before the repeal of DADT. At least with your guy, nobody questioned whether or not he was a victim, and threatened to take away everything he would have ever lived for afterwards.
ginandbacon
2013-03-18 03:23:13 PM  
1 vote:

tlars699: Genevieve Marie: ginandbacon: I am getting a little pissed off at this idea that it is a victim's responsibility to undergo what I have heard is a terrible ordeal by reporting their own assault in order to prevent future rapes. It isn't and no one should have to face that kind of guilt trip. Ever. It is the rapist's responsibility to prevent rape. Full stop.

This has come up in threads before and it's always hard for me to read too.

True, but asking a rapist to prevent rape.... I don't think that's going to go over so well. You should NEVER further vicitimize a victim(i.e. guilt trips about future victims), but you can promote each victim as being a pillar or strength whether or not they report it, and get recognition for being truly epically awesome when they do report it.

Also, I'm all for more factual education about all of this, but there will still be rapists among us, in that they get off on it *because* it is super-duper-bad, illegal, etc., and some of these rape-y-rapers will do their best to get away with it through intimidation, harassment, or even more violence, blackmail, etc.


Then the solution is quite obvious. Eliminate the culture of rape that makes it so difficult for victims to come forward since they are apparently the only people capable of stopping rape.

Or, you know, we could try to change the power dynamic between men and women so that rape is never seen as acceptable. That would have saved this girl. If even one person had stood up to these guys or called 911, we wouldn't be having this asinine conversation today.
Genevieve Marie [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 03:23:13 PM  
1 vote:

Pangea: Genevieve Marie: So we're supposed to constantly take responsibility for protecting ourselves from rape and yet not talk about the ways in which we do that, lest we be considered paranoid, or like we're crazy and we think all men are potential rapists.


I've never accused a woman of being too paranoid based on a description of ways in which she protects herself. It would be something like preemptively incapacitating a perceived attacker with pepper spray before he actually did anything.

My issue is with women who say, "Is it too hard to teach men not to rape?"  Because that's precisely when they reposition the argument into accusing me of a being a rapist based solely on my gender.

How is my ability to do "teach" such a thing that is obvious to me, any different than her ability to "teach" it. I promise I would reprogram the minds of an entire culture if I knew how.


Not all men are rapists, but it's a statistical fact that most rapists are men. If that makes you uncomfortable I'm sorry, but it's factual. It's also factual that there's a weird gender dynamic surrounding sex, which I've described a few times, and it produces situations like this one.

So while it is obvious to you how sexual consent works, there are other men who it is clearly not obvious to and it would benefit society if that conversation became as much a part of raising a child as don't cheat, lie, steal, beat people up or talk back to adults.

The worst that happens in that situation is that all of the great young men who already have positive ideas about sex and sexuality have to sit through yet another boring lecture about something they already understand.
Bartleby the Scrivener
2013-03-18 03:20:46 PM  
1 vote:

tlars699: It is far worse to be a survivor of rape [regardless of sex/gender], than it is to be a survivor of other physical violence [regardless of sex/gender] as rape is a violation of the most intimate places on a human body.


i disagree with you. unless you can provide some research that supports this absurd notion (which you won't because you can't) you are minimizing and trivializing the suffering of countless others who are victims or physical assault, drunk driving accidents, hazing, and any other number of ways that human beings can be vicious and cruel to each other.

under what code do you elevate the genitals of one person over the brain or internal organs of another? you are falsely constructing some bizarre hierarchy of suffering simply because you say the symbolism of one body part trumps another.

in the past i worked in MH/MR, and one guy i worked with was a smart guy, academic...before he got brained with a pipe. he then commenced to shout obscenities involuntarily and had to wear a diaper because of fecal and urinary incontinence. he was at least 4 years in when i got there, and he was still there when i left.

Please answer this question: Who are you to say that his suffering and "survivorship" is less than a victim of sexual assault?
Barbecue Bob
2013-03-18 03:06:54 PM  
1 vote:
The boys are guilty. End of that part. Rapists should be drawn and quartered IMO.

Will they give the girl a citation for underage drinking?
She deserves one.
tlars699
2013-03-18 02:59:53 PM  
1 vote:

WhippingBoy: tlars699: What? No. I don't think you men walk around without concern for your safety.
 I think you walk around without concern that you will be raped.

Your previous argument that I live in a constant "paranoid" fear that I may be raped at any given opportunity is correct.
It is ALWAYS in my mind that I could be attacked, especially when vulnerable.

I'm glad that your lack of concern about such is apparent, and that you don't have to worry about being physically violated in places most people keep intimately guarded, unlike me.
You worry about being robbed, beaten, killed. I worry about being robbed, beaten, killed, AND RAPED.
Do you see the difference?

I don't think I'll be able to articulate this very well, but I'll try my best.
In my world view, it's as bad (if not worse) to be killed than it is to be raped. It's also statistically more likely that I'll be randomly killed (or have the quality of my life incredibly impacted) than you will be randomly raped (or killed). In this context, I've got more to worry about than you do, but for some reason, you seem to be summarily dismissing my concerns.

In short, my interpretation of your comments is that you seem to feel that it's far worse to rape a woman than it is to kill a man.


Alternatively, you seem to be dismissing that "rape culture" exists [despite the fact that every woman is expected and raised to feel this way about any situation where they could possibly be raped] simply because you have it "worse".
At least when someone stabs/robs you, you will more likely than not have physical evidence of such that cannot be as summarily dismissed as rape charges are, most frequently with "Well, what was she wearing?"

It is far worse to be a survivor of rape [regardless of sex/gender], than it is to be a survivor of other physical violence [regardless of sex/gender] as rape is a violation of the most intimate places on a human body, and that fact that our culture promotes this "It must have been partially *your* fault, you slutty/stupid person, you" mentality.
RedT
2013-03-18 02:51:59 PM  
1 vote:

WhippingBoy: tlars699: What? No. I don't think you men walk around without concern for your safety.
 I think you walk around without concern that you will be raped.

Your previous argument that I live in a constant "paranoid" fear that I may be raped at any given opportunity is correct.
It is ALWAYS in my mind that I could be attacked, especially when vulnerable.

I'm glad that your lack of concern about such is apparent, and that you don't have to worry about being physically violated in places most people keep intimately guarded, unlike me.
You worry about being robbed, beaten, killed. I worry about being robbed, beaten, killed, AND RAPED.
Do you see the difference?

I don't think I'll be able to articulate this very well, but I'll try my best.
In my world view, it's as bad (if not worse) to be killed than it is to be raped. It's also statistically more likely that I'll be randomly killed (or have the quality of my life incredibly impacted) than you will be randomly raped (or killed). In this context, I've got more to worry about than you do, but for some reason, you seem to be summarily dismissing my concerns.

In short, my interpretation of your comments is that you seem to feel that it's far worse to rape a woman than it is to kill a man.


[citation needed]

/dude, you are either seriously paranoid and should probably seek help, or are involved in some dangerous criminal enterprise if you chances of getting killed are greater than a woman's chances of getting raped.
Genevieve Marie [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 02:48:18 PM  
1 vote:

tlars699: Perhaps a better choice of words would be "it presents an opportunity to be taken advantage of by those who do not have your best interests in mind, which they may not have had otherwise".

And it is a crime for a 16 year old to get so drunk she can't say no. Because she's underage.


And this is all stuff it's fair to bring up in a discussion about underage drinking. The problem with focusing any discussion about a rape case on the actions of the victim is that it tends to gloss over or justify the actions of the perpetrator.
ginandbacon
2013-03-18 02:44:57 PM  
1 vote:
I am getting a little pissed off at this idea that it is a victim's responsibility to undergo what I have heard is a terrible ordeal by reporting their own assault in order to prevent future rapes. It isn't and no one should have to face that kind of guilt trip. Ever. It is the rapist's responsibility to prevent rape. Full stop.
Genevieve Marie [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 02:18:03 PM  
1 vote:

HAMMERTOE: BarkingUnicorn: Tricky Chicken: doglover: Tricky Chicken: Are you comparing rape to various socialist policies? Or were you going for the wealth redistribution idea?

I for one would like to opt out of "rape redistribution" preemptively, just in case.

I don't think it would be an opt out situation.  Wimins have the hoohaa, mens wants the hoohaas.  It is clearly a monopoly.

And women want the cock.  It's odd that they are considered greedy and miserly, but cocksmen are considered generous and philanthropic.

Actually, I was angling about the "Wealth Redistribution" aspect with my original statement. It all boils down to the Haves and the Have- nots, as it so often does. As was stated by more people than just myself, women have the booty; and are fairly stingy with it, just like the rich people are with their money. Some men are born better off, just like some people are born rich. For them, access to booty (money) is never a problem. As for the "Women want the cock" aspect, this just doesn't work out to be true. For example, in a divorce, the wife has traditionally gotten a share of the husband's money, even if she never worked a day in her life, and had a maid do all the housework. Yet, have you ever heard of one single case where the ex-wife was required to maintain a sex life for her ex-husband comparable to the financial standard of living he is required to provide for her? If she didn't work, and had a maid to do all the housework, that was pretty much the context of her "contribution" to the marriage.


Yea, I feel really gross just reading that. The idea that women's bodies are commodities that men are entitled to, regardless of how the woman feels about it is about as glaring an example of promoting rape culture as you'll see.
BarkingUnicorn
2013-03-18 01:52:21 PM  
1 vote:

tlars699: Esroc: None of this behavior surprises me. When I was in High School the football team quarterback got his girlfriend pregnant, so he shot her multiple times then turned the gun on himself.

The next day the school held a big ceremony for mourning the quarterback. The entire school was filled with kids and teachers grieving over him with signs and pictures of him all over campus about how sad it was that this had happened to him. Not a single mention of the poor girl he murdered.

That was about the time that my last shred of faith in humanity was cut.


This is abhorrent.


It defies my imagination of decency.  The only plausible explanation I can think of is that the girl's family requested that her name not be mentioned in conjunction with his, or at all in a public ceremony (circus?).  Anything else is outrageous.
Carth
2013-03-18 01:46:19 PM  
1 vote:

WhippingBoy: Carth: It doesn't seem like a bad idea to teach your high school son things like: if a girl has been drinking she can't consent to sex, if even after consenting to sex she wants to stop you need to do so immediately, any pictures she gives you shouldn't be shown to anyone else. While these things might be obvious to most adults, teens can be freaking morons sometimes.

Of course it's not a bad idea. It's a great idea, in fact. Why do you assume that people aren't already teaching this to their sons?


Because I volunteer with high school teenagers few times a week and over hear their conversations. I do a face palm at some of the things they believe about sex at least once or twice a month. Most of them will tell you their parents don't talk to them about sex and sex education is almost non existent at a lot of public schools. This means they end up learning things from their peers or the Internet and leads to a lot of messed up views.
HAMMERTOE
2013-03-18 01:43:12 PM  
1 vote:

Tricky Chicken: You are describing intercourse as a tradeable commodity. Overt prostitution is illegal in most jurisdictions. In your divorce scenario, the ex-wife would be forced to subject herself to unwanted intercourse in exchange for financial gain. I would assume that if she were to refues intercourse then she would forfeit the alimony? This is a dangerous concept since some women would be discouraged from leaving bad relationships. A married woman can refuse sex and still live in the nice house. But in your scenario, a divorced woman would be on her own and be forced to provide sex.

No, I must reject your implication that marital sex can be treated as a commodity.

Now open prostitution, is a different subject altogether.


Come on now. If marital sex cannot be treated as a "commodity", on what grounds do you justify alimony? Because if she's entitled to being taken care of in the way she's become accustomed to, the very same principle should apply to him as well.
Carth
2013-03-18 01:36:02 PM  
1 vote:

tlars699: Carth: WhippingBoy: Zombalupagus: The silver lining on that is, contrary to what rapists think, most men are decent human beings and would not do anything like that given the chance. Instead, it's a very small percentage that are very, very dangerous.

I think this may be why people are resistant to statements like "we need to teach men not to rape". The implication is that "men" don't already know this and would rape at the first chance if they thought they could get away with it.

It doesn't seem like a bad idea to teach your high school son things like: if a girl has been drinking she can't consent to sex, if even after consenting to sex she wants to stop you need to do so immediately, any pictures she gives you shouldn't be shown to anyone else should be immediately deleted from your phone after you see it. While these things might be obvious to most adults, teens can be freaking morons sometimes.

FTFY


That's true. With the popularity of snapchat I think that goes without saying but a very good point.
vudukungfu [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 01:34:31 PM  
1 vote:

HAMMERTOE: Probably the very best argument to live in a "Shall Issue" state.


We don't require a permit to carry concealed here.
You go to the store, pick out a nice concealed holster, or fanny pack. And wear in public.

We don't have a lot of crime, either.
WhippingBoy
2013-03-18 01:21:50 PM  
1 vote:

Zombalupagus: The silver lining on that is, contrary to what rapists think, most men are decent human beings and would not do anything like that given the chance. Instead, it's a very small percentage that are very, very dangerous.


I think this may be why people are resistant to statements like "we need to teach men not to rape". The implication is that "men" don't already know this and would rape at the first chance if they thought they could get away with it.
BarkingUnicorn
2013-03-18 01:09:13 PM  
1 vote:

StrangeQ: Popcorn Johnny: One of these two did distribute a nude picture of the girl, so the child porn charge is warranted.

Of all the charges, I would say this is actually the only one not deserved.  If you are 16 and take a picture of another 16 year old and pass it around you may be dumb and irresponsible, but you are not distributing child porn; you are distributing pictures of someone in your fellow age group.  There is a world of difference between that and some 50 year old seeding his stash of photos on TOR.


I'm afraid you don't understand why child porn is treated so severely.  It's not a matter of intent or circumstances.  It's a matter of strict liability; the damage is done no matter what your intentions are or who you are.  Those "innocent" images will end up fueling a predator's fantasies and inspiring him to action.  The question, "Got any more like that?" will be asked and new victims will satisfy it.  The victim will suffer permanent and irreparable damage to her privacy and reputation, and every time someone is tried for possessing her image she will be re-traumatized by having to testify and endure cross-examination.

Whether the victim is your ex-girlfriend or a baby you rented on Craigslist doesn't change the harm you've done.  Your age and immaturity may mitigate your punishment, but can't avert your conviction.
Two16
2013-03-18 01:03:01 PM  
1 vote:

borg: feckingmorons: I have absolutely no sympathy for rapists.

They're lives weren't ruined when they were adjudicated delinquent (in juvenile court that is tantamount to a guilty verdict), their lives were ruined when they decided to be rapists.

They'll be in detention for a year or at most until they are 21.

Big fecking deal.

Do they have to register as sex offenders for the rest of their lives?  Thats what will ruin their lives and any chance of decent employment.


i0.kym-cdn.comView Full Size
Zombalupagus
2013-03-18 12:56:48 PM  
1 vote:

cman: Genevieve Marie:

The idea that men need to be taught not to rape makes people furious, but I mean... watch the video embedded in this link. The young men talking clearly haven't been taught not to rape. They haven't been taught to respect sexual boundaries. And the scary part is they aren't out of the ordinary! These guys remind me of numerous boys I knew in high school and college.

---

How does one teach others not to rape?

I hate to say this, but rape is part of humanity. It is an aspect of the animal kingdom as well. Even though we are an enlightened species we still have those who either dont care about others or those who have no self control. How do you teach against that ...


There are apparently some studies that indicate that rapists think that all men, given an opportunity, would rape. If true, this implies something wrong deep in their core, some lack of empathy not unlike with a sociopath. They can't even wrap their heads around the idea that normal people don't rape.

A few other things to consider.

One of the "sad" things here is that this is not a "classic" case of rape so it seems "sad" that these boys are being punished so "harshly". But studies show that classic rape (where one uses violence on a stranger) are exceedingly rare. Most violent rapes are against people the rapists knows, and most attacks against strangers usually involve drugs or alcohol to make the victim compliant.

So the kind of rape they did is very common as rapes go. However it is the classic one that usually gets prosecuted. Yes, the kind that almost never happens (at least here in the U.S.). Add to that the statistic that about 97% of rapes go unreported.

Consider also that according to at least one study, most rapists start in their late teens. And most of those that do rape are serial rapists.

So, in that context, these two "boys" exactly fit the norms. They are at just the right age and if not caught for what they did would very likely keep going on doing what they were doing. And with such light sentences, they might still.

On the "bright" side, since most rapists are serial rapists this means that it's not a bunch of people where "they be rapin' everybody up in here", but a very small percentage of individuals responsible for most of the trouble.

The silver lining on that is, contrary to what rapists think, most men are decent human beings and would not do anything like that given the chance. Instead, it's a very small percentage that are very, very dangerous.

/yeah, that doesn't sound like much consolation. It isn't. It's bad, this is all bad and very depressing.
//about retched in my mind when the one guy only apologized for sending the pictures.
///well, there went my morning. I had to do a GIS for cute kittens and puppies for 3 minutes before I could even get back to finish my post. It wasn't enough.
Bontesla
2013-03-18 12:37:56 PM  
1 vote:

Popcorn Johnny: Waxing_Chewbacca: Where you in the courtroom? Did you hear all the evidence? No and no. The judge did and agrees with 90% of us who heard what has been reported. Your crusade to exonerate these two is disturbing. A bit up thread you stated that while she may have been drunk at one point she sobered up and wanted it. farking troglodyte.

I didn't state any such thing, stop blatantly lying and distorting what I said. I said that we have no way of knowing when those pictures were taken in relation to when the sexual contact happened. I guess you're going to continue ignoring testimony that the girl willingly went with the guys and lashed out at one of her friends that tried to stop her from leaving.

Did you hear all the evidence? Do you believe that judges always act on the facts and never on public pressure or their own beliefs?

I've said over and over that I have no way of knowing exactly what happened and would like to see more evidence. You seem fine with labeling them as rapists without having all the facts. You're the one that's farked up in the head, not me.


Wait - leaving a party with guys equates consent for sexual activity? You're going to have to do better than that. Especially given that party goers openly talked about the girl's rape. Are you suggesting that you have more firsthand knowledge than the party's attendees?

It's also important to note that they went to multiple parties. She had to be escorted out of the first one because she couldn't talk or string together a sentence (according to eye witnesses).
I_C_Weener [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 12:37:16 PM  
1 vote:

Magnanimous_J: Considering that half of rapes go unreported, it is the much bigger problem. There are no easy answers, as it so often comes down to he said/ she said. In this case, it seems much more cut and dry. Other cases are much trickier.


Well said.  Most cases depend on he said/she said about consent.  Most don't have video evidence showing inability to consent at roughly the same time as the alleged rape.  And it is tough to agree that a system that requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt convict a person solely on the word of one person, the victim.  So, while the system has a worthy goal of requiring the highest of proof, in cases of rape, it gets hard to justify a conviction based on the limited proof.  It doesn't mean that rape didn't occur.  Or that rape isn't bad.  Just that, a system designed to convict only the most clear cut guilty defendants, is not ideal for cases that depend on one witness' testimony. (Rape isn't the only type of case like this, but it is the most emotional lightning rod type of case).
Waxing_Chewbacca
2013-03-18 12:33:02 PM  
1 vote:

TheotherMIguy: As a Steubenville native, I want to apologize for my hometown.

Really, really apologize.

Though, honestly, I can see the cultural split that's causing this particular mentality in the area. Steubenville's a steel town, used to even be divided by ethnic lines. The places of worship in the lower city are most telling. The Irish Catholic Church (St. Peter's), the now closed Polish Catholic Church (St Stanislaus'), the Greek orthodox church that I can never remember the name of, the Jewish synagogue. And then there's the Franciscan University of Steubenville, a hub of the charismatic Catholic Church. All of these religious organizations lead to the older generations being fire and brimstone, the middle generation being divided three ways: between hyper religious zealots connected in some way to the University and thus either home schooled or attending the catholic high school (CCHS) with the more moderate families, the moderate families sending their children to either SHS or CCHS, and the rest of the city which contains working families, religious rejectionists, meth heads, drug dealers, and folks who could give a shiat about their kids.

In that mix comes SHS football. The town's only distraction from the downward spiral the region is in at the moment. They're going to protect it, idiotically, since other sports *cough*Swimming*cough* have a better overall record in the past decade or so.

Hmm, I think I over-ranted, I'm shutting up now.


Not an over-rant. I found that interesting actually.
vudukungfu [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 12:32:55 PM  
1 vote:

HAMMERTOE: A parent has to pretty much become a dreaded "helicopter parent" to battle the constant assault of such imagery.


Well, Mine weren't, but I knew how much trouble I'd be in if something like that was happening and I didn't put a stop to it. Not that I would have needed to stop and think about it. You see that happening, you stop it.
You use the minimal amount of force, but feel free to use up to and including deadly force to stop a rape.
Magnanimous_J
2013-03-18 12:30:33 PM  
1 vote:

Popcorn Johnny: Magnanimous_J: The good news is that other than a handful of lunatics, this is exceedingly rare. Rape being underreported is a far more frequent problem than women falsely accusing men of it. That's where we should be placing our attention. A good first step would be not to automatically assume an accuser is some kind of vengeful whack job.

According to FBI stats and other studies, 8% of rape claims are unfounded. So tell me, should we lock all those guys up just to be sure we're not letting a rapist go free, or should we demand that there be proof of a crime?



Considering that half of rapes go unreported, it is the much bigger problem. There are no easy answers, as it so often comes down to he said/ she said. In this case, it seems much more cut and dry. Other cases are much trickier.


However, the idea that prisons are filled up with falsely accused men is just not realistic.
TheotherMIguy
2013-03-18 12:29:23 PM  
1 vote:
As a Steubenville native, I want to apologize for my hometown.

Really, really apologize.

Though, honestly, I can see the cultural split that's causing this particular mentality in the area. Steubenville's a steel town, used to even be divided by ethnic lines. The places of worship in the lower city are most telling. The Irish Catholic Church (St. Peter's), the now closed Polish Catholic Church (St Stanislaus'), the Greek orthodox church that I can never remember the name of, the Jewish synagogue. And then there's the Franciscan University of Steubenville, a hub of the charismatic Catholic Church. All of these religious organizations lead to the older generations being fire and brimstone, the middle generation being divided three ways: between hyper religious zealots connected in some way to the University and thus either home schooled or attending the catholic high school (CCHS) with the more moderate families, the moderate families sending their children to either SHS or CCHS, and the rest of the city which contains working families, religious rejectionists, meth heads, drug dealers, and folks who could give a shiat about their kids.

In that mix comes SHS football. The town's only distraction from the downward spiral the region is in at the moment. They're going to protect it, idiotically, since other sports *cough*Swimming*cough* have a better overall record in the past decade or so.

Hmm, I think I over-ranted, I'm shutting up now.
Waxing_Chewbacca
2013-03-18 12:21:13 PM  
1 vote:

Popcorn Johnny: Magnanimous_J: The good news is that other than a handful of lunatics, this is exceedingly rare. Rape being underreported is a far more frequent problem than women falsely accusing men of it. That's where we should be placing our attention. A good first step would be not to automatically assume an accuser is some kind of vengeful whack job.

According to FBI stats and other studies, 8% of rape claims are unfounded. So tell me, should we lock all those guys up just to be sure we're not letting a rapist go free, or should we demand that there be proof of a crime?


Where you in the courtroom? Did you hear all the evidence? No and no. The judge did and agrees with 90% of us who heard what has been reported. Your crusade to exonerate these two is disturbing. A bit up thread you stated that while she may have been drunk at one point she sobered up and wanted it. farking troglodyte.
Bontesla
2013-03-18 12:15:34 PM  
1 vote:

serial_crusher: Biological Ali: True, the dog thing might make sense if they knew you had a dog beforehand. The point I'm trying to make, though, is that everything you've brought up can be covered by basic questions like "Did you notice any damage or evidence of tampering on locks or windows?" or "Can you tell me who had access to your apartment?" Going out out of the way to ask pointed questions like "Oh, did you forget to lock your door?" doesn't contribute anything to the investigative process - it would just be the cop being a dick.

So, assholes on the Internet say that kind of thing about rape victims.  They also say that kind of thing about robbery victims.
Do cops say that sort of thing about rape victims?  I've never been involved in a rape investigation, but I'd imagine they'd phrase it as sensitively as the examples you gave about the robbery.

My point is that people are mistaking the necessary questions for pointed ones.  Otherwise they have no reason to fear reporting to the cops.


The rape victims I knew (internship) didn't fear explaining what happened. They feared being accused of making it up, retaliation from their attacker, and the public exposure for their rape.

It was never the police taking down the complaint and we always offered to have a same sex officer present to help calm the victim.

In this particular example - the police seemed to do okay. They weren't the ones making harassing phone calls and online death threats. There's a social stigma we've placed on rape victims.

It's easy for someone to say, "I'm just not the type that would place myself in a situation to be raped. What did you do?"

And should the attacker refuse to plea out and this goes to trial? She better have defensive wounds and biological evidence to establish A). Sexual contact and B). That contact was unwanted. And she better be damned convincing on the stand because there's little hope of winning without a very public testimony about a very intimate and sexual trauma. Her attacker's attorney will also be trying to convince the jury that she wasn't being clear about refusing his advances.
Popcorn Johnny
2013-03-18 12:14:10 PM  
1 vote:

Magnanimous_J: The good news is that other than a handful of lunatics, this is exceedingly rare. Rape being underreported is a far more frequent problem than women falsely accusing men of it. That's where we should be placing our attention. A good first step would be not to automatically assume an accuser is some kind of vengeful whack job.


According to FBI stats and other studies, 8% of rape claims are unfounded. So tell me, should we lock all those guys up just to be sure we're not letting a rapist go free, or should we demand that there be proof of a crime?
serial_crusher [TotalFark] [BareFark]
2013-03-18 12:00:45 PM  
1 vote:

Biological Ali: Here's a brief passage from Steven Pinker's The Better Angels of Our Nature:

Police often treated rape as a joke, pressing the victim for pornographic details or dismissing her with wisecracks like "Who'd want to rape you?" or "A rape victim is a prostitute who doesn't get paid."


Wow, anybody who ever said either of those to a rape victim should be fired on the spot.
Waxing_Chewbacca
2013-03-18 11:59:09 AM  
1 vote:

Dubya's_Coke_Dealer: feckingmorons: I have absolutely no sympathy for rapists.

They're lives weren't ruined when they were adjudicated delinquent (in juvenile court that is tantamount to a guilty verdict), their lives were ruined when they decided to be rapists.

They'll be in detention for a year or at most until they are 21.

Big fecking deal.

Seems to me that they're getting punished for being stupid enough to videotape it and post it. They would have gotten away with it otherwise.


Seems to me they're getting punished for raping a girl
I_C_Weener [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 11:55:52 AM  
1 vote:

Popcorn Johnny: Waxing_Chewbacca: You saw pics. You heard stories about her condition!!! She was beyond wasted!!! Do believe she COULD consent? Apparently yes.

At what point of the evening were those pics taken? Her friend testified that she had been drinking and willingly left with the two guys. You want us to believe that she was all Weekend at Bernied and being dragged around from party to party or something.

You seem to think it's impossible that she could have gave consent and that's just not true.


You seem to have some knowledge that no one outside that courtroom has.  When did the "fingerbanging" in your terms (that wasn't penetration per one of your earlier comments) occur relative to the incapacitation?

Assuming that you are trying to equate what we know publicly with what was presented as evidence in the courtroom, then you clearly understand that we might not know the entire story.  We do know it comes down to consent.  And in the pictures and video we have, she clearly is beyond consent.  I assume you agree with that, right?

So, your entire case, now in this thread, has been whittled down to when the penetration occurred relative to the incapacitation.  An absolutely relevant issue.   So, what information do you have?

I admit, I don't have any specific info on timing.  But I'm not willing to believe these boys who took these pics, posted them online, and took her drunk and passed out (to the point they refer to her as "dead"), and whom refer to themselves as some sort of Rape Gang, are somehow innocent by timing.  What they participated in that we can see on video is reprehensible, and consistent with the behavior to which they are accused.

Furthermore, at no time have I hear them argue that timing was key...only that she consented.  So, it may be possible that you are creating a defense that the accused (now convicted) aren't even relying upon.  Or did I miss that specific defense that she consented early on in the evening and the sex happened then, then she got so drunk that they had to Weekend at Bernie's her to the other parties where they thought pictures and video was a good idea to top off the romantic evening?

Your looking for any excuse here for their innocence strains credulity.  Unless you are privy to anything other than "just asking questions".
seadoo2006
2013-03-18 11:53:02 AM  
1 vote:

Popcorn Johnny: seadoo2006: YOU CANNOT GIVE LEGAL CONSENT IN OHIO IF YOU ARE NOT 100% SOBER.

So ever woman that has a drink and then has sex has the right to claim rape if they so choose? Bullshiat!


Yes, under the law, you abstain from sex if you're not absolutely sure she's given you legal consent and yes, under the law in almost every state, you CANNOT give legal consent if you've been drinking.

Don't stick your dick in drunk ... not that hard to figure out.
seadoo2006
2013-03-18 11:47:07 AM  
1 vote:

Popcorn Johnny: Waxing_Chewbacca: You saw pics. You heard stories about her condition!!! She was beyond wasted!!! Do believe she COULD consent? Apparently yes.

At what point of the evening were those pics taken? Her friend testified that she had been drinking and willingly left with the two guys. You want us to believe that she was all Weekend at Bernied and being dragged around from party to party or something.

You seem to think it's impossible that she could have gave consent and that's just not true.


YOU CANNOT GIVE LEGAL CONSENT IN OHIO IF YOU ARE NOT 100% SOBER.

/END OF GOD DAMN STORY ...
Waxing_Chewbacca
2013-03-18 11:30:26 AM  
1 vote:

Hella Fark: sucks for the victim but 16 year old drinking at a party? sounds like she made some bad decisions of her own there too


Hanging with this crowd and having a drinking problem... Yes. There is personal responsibility issue there. As to being raped she is entirely a victim without an ounce of blame IMO.
I_C_Weener [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 11:12:54 AM  
1 vote:

Popcorn Johnny: I_C_Weener: Well, lets see what we know.  They admit to sexual contact, including penetration with their fingers.  They claim consent.  She denies consent.  They post pictures of her in a condition making it impossible (objectively) for her to consent to anything.  So...her word on consent plus their video of her incapable of consent plus their making fun of her condition, on video, that she's like dead.

So you have proof that the sexual contact happened after she was passed out and not before, or that she never gave consent? Also, as I've already said, the video posted was some other kid, not the two guys that were convicted.

You sure seem willing to put all your faith in the testimony of a 16 year old with a drinking problem. Sorry that I need more before condemning these guys as rapists.


Well, since it was a closed juvenile proceeding, we'll have to wonder.  The benefit of this type of system is that a trained legal expert, we'll call him a judge, got to make the decision under existing law.  But, as I said, from the information we do know, I'd have no problem convicting them.  But I imagine, there was more evidence presented in the trial.
ginandbacon
2013-03-18 11:12:40 AM  
1 vote:

Snowflake Tubbybottom: hat is where we can blame the most victims


Telling comment, that.
Waxing_Chewbacca
2013-03-18 11:09:16 AM  
1 vote:

Popcorn Johnny: I_C_Weener: Well, lets see what we know.  They admit to sexual contact, including penetration with their fingers.  They claim consent.  She denies consent.  They post pictures of her in a condition making it impossible (objectively) for her to consent to anything.  So...her word on consent plus their video of her incapable of consent plus their making fun of her condition, on video, that she's like dead.

So you have proof that the sexual contact happened after she was passed out and not before, or that she never gave consent? Also, as I've already said, the video posted was some other kid, not the two guys that were convicted.

You sure seem willing to put all your faith in the testimony of a 16 year old with a drinking problem. Sorry that I need more before condemning these guys as rapists.


They admitted to contact... Do you think she was in condition to consent?!!! You saw her condition.
theMightyRegeya
2013-03-18 10:57:41 AM  
1 vote:

Genevieve Marie: rynthetyn: What pisses me off to no end is that the American media goes and acts like the US is so superior to India when covering the Delhi gang rape case, but then they turn around and do the exact same victim blaming and feeling sorry for the rapists that they love to point fingers about when it happens elsewhere.

You're not the first to make the comparison and it's most certainly a fair and accurate one. Anyone that denies we live in a rape culture isn't paying attention.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/172024/americas-rape-problem-we-refuse -a dmit-there-one#


The thing that's sick about the "rape culture" mentality--not the existence of it, but the insinuation that we have one, is how it's defined.  If our culture condoned rape, these kids wouldn't even be going to juvie.

If anything, the reaction to things like this, and to the Penn State controversy, outline a different but big problem we have.  Did Penn State cover up the horrible things that happened there because the folks at Penn State excuse or even  looooooooooverape?  Did they excuse the Duke bros because rape is awesome?  I don't think so; if anything, all of these are great examples of our jock culture.

Seriously.

Think about it.  Rape culture doesn't explain people who are animal lovers, but got angry because Michael Vick's career was ruined.

People love their bread and circuses more than they love their mothers, wives, and daughters.  It's sick.
The Muthaship
2013-03-18 10:53:59 AM  
1 vote:

Popcorn Johnny: It needs to take a hell of a lot more than a woman saying she was raped before sending people to jail for it.


Ohio requires corroborating evidence in any case of sexual assault.
Snowflake Tubbybottom
2013-03-18 10:45:41 AM  
1 vote:

ginandbacon: Snowflake Tubbybottom: ginandbacon: How on earth does anyone object to the term rape culture? What else would you call the mores of a group that condone and minimize the horror of sexual assault?

Probably because it's inaccurate and shifts blame to society for the criminal activity of the individual.  What else would I call it? Wholly untrue since it's that same groups mores that prosecuted and convicted these little bastards.

How is it inaccurate and how does it shift blame? And remember, there were active attempts by many in the community to impede this prosecution. The State Atty. General has convened a grand jury to investigate all 27 of the school's football team.


The actions of one case, or even several, do not reflect the attitudes of the whole.  If it did we would not seek to prosecute the people who do rape and make sure we know who they are and what they did long after their sentence is carried out.  This culture does not condone rape and the evidence is the convicting of the rapists.

So again the term is inaccurate and shifts blame from the person who commits the crime to the rest of us who would do not turn a blind eye.
Galileo's Daughter
2013-03-18 10:43:25 AM  
1 vote:

WhippingBoy: While I understand and absolutely agree with the intent, "teaching men to stop raping" sounds like it will be as effective as the "war on drugs".

Our track record isn't very good. Five thousand years of "enlighten" though, and we still haven't figured out how to teach people how to stop stealing, murdering, cheating, abusing, slandering, lying, etc. etc. Why on earth would anyone think that things will be different in this situation?


I want my kids to think that stealing is wrong and that kindness and loyalty are good values.  That's my job as a parent, and responsible parents should teach their children to think deeply and reason on questions of morality.
liam76
2013-03-18 10:32:22 AM  
1 vote:

ginandbacon: Snowflake Tubbybottom: ginandbacon: How on earth does anyone object to the term rape culture? What else would you call the mores of a group that condone and minimize the horror of sexual assault?

Probably because it's inaccurate and shifts blame to society for the criminal activity of the individual.  What else would I call it? Wholly untrue since it's that same groups mores that prosecuted and convicted these little bastards.

How is it inaccurate and how does it shift blame? And remember, there were active attempts by many in the community to impede this prosecution. The State Atty. General has convened a grand jury to investigate all 27 of the school's football team.


When you say it is the fault of the "culture" you are shifting blame.

There were attempts to cover this up, and people got pissed.  If it was our "culture" nobody would have gotten pissed.
poot_rootbeer
2013-03-18 10:29:24 AM  
1 vote:

StrangeQ: If you are 16 and take a picture of another 16 year old and pass it around you may be dumb and irresponsible, but you are not distributing child porn; you are distributing pictures of someone in your fellow age group.  There is a world of difference between that and some 50 year old seeding his stash of photos on TOR.


How do you think the 50-year-old ends up with pictures of passed-out naked 16-year-olds in the first place?

This isn't the same as statutory rape laws, where the ages of the parties are factored into determining whether there was consent and where there was a power disparity.  No matter how old you are when you produce and distribute sexual content involving minors, once it's out there it's available to every pederast with an internet connection.

(I also think child pornography laws need to differentiate between content with sexual connotations and simple nudity, and between subjects who have reached physical sexual maturity and those who have not, but those are separate issues.)
ginandbacon
2013-03-18 10:23:06 AM  
1 vote:

Snowflake Tubbybottom: ginandbacon: How on earth does anyone object to the term rape culture? What else would you call the mores of a group that condone and minimize the horror of sexual assault?

Probably because it's inaccurate and shifts blame to society for the criminal activity of the individual.  What else would I call it? Wholly untrue since it's that same groups mores that prosecuted and convicted these little bastards.


How is it inaccurate and how does it shift blame? And remember, there were active attempts by many in the community to impede this prosecution. The State Atty. General has convened a grand jury to investigate all 27 of the school's football team.
liam76
2013-03-18 10:22:14 AM  
1 vote:

ginandbacon: liam76: ginandbacon: How on earth does anyone object to the term rape culture? What else would you call the mores of a group that condone and minimize the horror of sexual assault?

I think people are objecting to it being broadly applied to the US.

Why shouldn't it be broadly applied to the US? It's a country-wide problem. According to the National Institute of Justice:


"Rape culture" to me implies that actions, like the ones those kids did is accepted by large segments of the population.  That isn;t the case.  Because we have problems with reporting rape doesn't equate to the US being a "rape culture".
WhippingBoy
2013-03-18 10:22:07 AM  
1 vote:
While I understand and absolutely agree with the intent, "teaching men to stop raping" sounds like it will be as effective as the "war on drugs".

Our track record isn't very good. Five thousand years of "enlighten" though, and we still haven't figured out how to teach people how to stop stealing, murdering, cheating, abusing, slandering, lying, etc. etc. Why on earth would anyone think that things will be different in this situation?
I_C_Weener [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 10:20:48 AM  
1 vote:
So, you are all forgetting the real victims in this case...CNN and their troop of empathetic talking heads who are now being told that they were wrong.
StrangeQ
2013-03-18 10:18:07 AM  
1 vote:

Popcorn Johnny: One of these two did distribute a nude picture of the girl, so the child porn charge is warranted.


Of all the charges, I would say this is actually the only one not deserved.  If you are 16 and take a picture of another 16 year old and pass it around you may be dumb and irresponsible, but you are not distributing child porn; you are distributing pictures of someone in your fellow age group.  There is a world of difference between that and some 50 year old seeding his stash of photos on TOR.
ginandbacon
2013-03-18 10:17:57 AM  
1 vote:

doglover: ginandbacon: Only 36 percent of rapes, 34 percent of attempted rapes, and 26 percent of sexual assaults were reported.

If they weren't reported, how do they know about them?

Also, you're making a mistake buying into the PR of a "justice" system. We do not a justice system. We have a legal system, and honestly it's been my experience you're right not to trust it. I've rarely seen it do anything but harm.

That said, it's what we do have and occasionally that harm falls on the right targets. If you can prove you're raped you're not gonna find a more helpful collection of harmers to do your dirty work for you than the police. Rapists are the favorite target of EVERY branch of law enforcement. They hates 'em more than normal people.


I have had my finger hovering over the Ignore button after many of your posts. But mainly you seem to me to be ignorant rather than malicious.

The NIJ estimates unreported crime in the following way, and any errors will be fairly constant accross all estimates:

The Nation's Two Crime Measures

BJS's National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS)- reported and unreported crime from the victim's perspective.FBI's Uniform Crime Reports (UCR) - crimes reported by law enforcementLike many other indicators used to assess conditions in the United States, these two indicators of crime complement each other to produce a more comprehensive portrait of the Nation's crime problem.

Some of the differences between UCR and NCVS are -


UCRNCVSGeographic coverageNational & State estimates, local agency reportsNational estimatesCollection methodReports by law enforcement to the FBI on a monthly basisSurvey of as many as 77,200 households and 134,000 individuals age 12 or older.MeasuresIndex crimes* reported by law enforcementReported and unreported crime; details about the crimes, victims, and offenders
Many victims of sexual assault are treated horribly by LE and most of us know that. It is bad enough that I would have to think long and hard before reporting a rape. We also know what happens to the victims of sex crimes who do report. They are often ostracized if not worse for coming forward. Most of the time, they know their attacker and will likely be attacked again by others in their social circle. Often, they are attacked by their own families.

I find your attitude quite callous and frankly to be the sort of misinformation and victim blaming that is exactly part of what allows rape culture to continue.

Again, I do not question your sincerity or care about this issue, but I have been offended by your remarks and unwillingness to educate yourself. You might want to take a few days to read up on the issue and come back to future conversations with a slightly more nuanced and realistic view of the topic.
Galileo's Daughter
2013-03-18 10:16:25 AM  
1 vote:

cman: How does one teach others not to rape?

I hate to say this, but rape is part of humanity. It is an aspect of the animal kingdom as well. Even though we are an enlightened species we still have those who either dont care about others or those who have no self control. How do you teach ag ...


Rape does not have to be part of humanity.  We might have urges, but we do not have to act on them.  It is possible for anyone to exercise self-control.
poot_rootbeer
2013-03-18 10:13:25 AM  
1 vote:

Wolf_Blitzer: Prison education and work placement programs have been shown to drive down repeat offenses; I doubt the same can be said for giving inmates fridges and TVs.


I doubt it too, but if it were to be empirically proven to make a difference, I wouldn't deny inmates those devices just because it could subjectively feel like "coddling" them.

A prisoner who is expected to prepare their own food and who is keeping up with culture might be easier to re-integrate into society than one who is issued three trays of slop per day and has a library of third-hand paperbacks for entertainment.
Jorn the Younger
2013-03-18 10:06:43 AM  
1 vote:

browntimmy: notatrollorami: rynthetyn: What pisses me off to no end is that the American media goes and acts like the US is so superior to India when covering the Delhi gang rape case, but then they turn around and do the exact same victim blaming and feeling sorry for the rapists that they love to point fingers about when it happens elsewhere.

Ok am I missing something here? I'll grant you I have given scant attention to this case, but wasn't this a situation wherein two guys fingering a passed out girl? When I read the article I was stunned that it referred to this incident as a brutal gang rape. Now you're comparing this to the Indian incidents. Do I not know something about this case or are there really people who don't grasp the huge divide between fingering a passed out girl and actual violent public bloody gang rape of a screaming woman who later dies from the injuries?

///Glad they got convicted

A lot of people tend to get a little too black-and-white about rape.

Let's say there's a scenario where a girl accepted an invitation from a guy she just met at a party to come hang out with him and 3 of his friends that she also doesn't know at an abandoned warehouse at 1am, and she's raped. You're not allowed to say things like, "This girl lacks so much common sense she's a danger to herself." Because somehow saying that is equivalent to saying, "The rapists did nothing wrong, it was all her fault."


Yes, some thing get a little trigger happy on the whole "stop blaming the victim" mindset, but can you blame them, considering the amount of actual blaming the victim that goes on?
Waxing_Chewbacca
2013-03-18 10:03:47 AM  
1 vote:

Dragonflew: Seriously? What the fark is with all the female rape apologists lately?


There are woman who have been raised to believe that men will be men and so you shouldn't put yourself in a bad position. True? Not going there. To me rape is rape regardless of what a woman wears or how drunk she is. She says no then NO is the answer.
Mobutu
2013-03-18 09:56:16 AM  
1 vote:

RobSeace: Ukab the Great: You do believe in the Bible...don't you?

Believe in it? I've actually seen one before!

borg: Do they have to register as sex offenders for the rest of their lives? Thats what will ruin their lives and any chance of decent employment.

[i.imgur.com image 640x425]


Eh...  we should not be handling criminal prosecution with vengeance in mind.

As deplorable as what these kids did was, well, first:  They are kids.  That is not a sympathetic statement, just fact.  Secondly, things like the Sex Offender registry do in fact ruin lives and, really, once you have that on your record, what are you going to do?  You are practically forced into worse crimes out of sheer self preservation.

Our criminal justice system needs an overhaul.  I don't know what to recommend, and I don't say this out of any sympathy for the perpetrators here, just a sad fact - what we are doing, does not work, and in fact does more harm than good.
UnspokenVoice [recently expired TotalFark]
2013-03-18 09:45:40 AM