FARK.com: (7552162) NYPD to deploy new, portable high-tech devices that can scan people walking down the street for concealed weapons

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		NYPD to deploy new, portable high-tech devices that can scan people walking down the street for concealed weapons ( nydailynews.com)		333
		More: Scary, Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly, N.Y.P.D., New York Civil Liberties Union, London Metropolitan Police, concealed weapons, Waldorf-Astoria, assault weapons, false positives

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10131 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Jan 2013 at 3:39 PM (5 years ago) | Favorite | share:

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R.A.Danny

2013-01-23 03:58:14 PM

HartRend: Did I really just use my tinfoil hat kung fu in a practical manner?... In regard to the government trying to scan me? Holy shiat, maybe I'm not crazy!

You're crazy.

They're still out to trample your rights though.

TheJoe03

2013-01-23 03:58:27 PM

R.A.Danny: Not to make this a gun argument (I know, too late) but it is the very mindset that rabidly encroaches on what many may call their Second Amendment Rights that feels that citizens really have no rights whatsoever.

Honestly, did we ever? I was listening to some George Carlin this morning and he simply brought up the internment of Japanese-AMERICANS. Plenty of other obvious examples (slavery, lack of woman's suffrage, Alien and Sedition Acts, Andrew Jackson's presidency, the PATRIOT Act, etc etc etc).

Abe Vigoda's Ghost

2013-01-23 03:58:50 PM

Oh yeah, that's pretty stealthy.

HotWingConspiracy

2013-01-23 03:59:03 PM

Ow! That was my feelings!: A new scan-inhibiting clothing line is launched in 3, 2, ....

So, will they stop and frisk anyone they can't get a clear scan on? Would that be probable cause?

I'm nearly certain they'd argue it would. Probably liken it to wearing a mask.

redmid17

2013-01-23 03:59:07 PM

Nem Wan: NYPD has something like 35,000 officers. That's bigger than the population of a lot of small towns. There should be an independent 50-member force that arrests NYPD officers for violating people's rights.

Do you really think NYC can afford all that overtime?

topcon

2013-01-23 04:00:52 PM

There's about, oh, gee, thousands of different objects someone walking down the street could have on them, or in a bag hanging on their shoulder, that might set this stupid thing off. Unless it can definitively tell what is a gun and what isn't (and I'm guessing it can't) that's pretty stupid.

Dimensio

2013-01-23 04:00:55 PM

Stone Meadow: And a rash of new plastic guns hit the market in 3, 2, 1...

Will these plastic guns utilize plastic springs, plastic slides, plastic magazines, plastic barrels and plastic ammunition?

MythDragon

2013-01-23 04:01:04 PM

Radiation detector....what are they looking for?

R.A.Danny

2013-01-23 04:01:45 PM

TheJoe03: Honestly, did we ever? I was listening to some George Carlin this morning and he simply brought up the internment of Japanese-AMERICANS. Plenty of other obvious examples (slavery, lack of woman's suffrage, Alien and Sedition Acts, Andrew Jackson's presidency, the PATRIOT Act, etc etc etc).

It's sad isn't it? I know no one is gonna use their AR15 to "Water the tree of democracy" or any of that bullshiat, but a lot of gun enthusiasts do see their Second Amendment rights as a canary in a coal mine. Yeah, there are some nuts out there, but can it be said that they have no reason do resent what is and has gone on? The sickening authoritarian mindset is probably the least "American" value that one can come up with.

HotWingConspiracy

2013-01-23 04:02:12 PM

topcon: There's about, oh, gee, thousands of different objects someone walking down the street could have on them, or in a bag hanging on their shoulder, that might set this stupid thing off. Unless it can definitively tell what is a gun and what isn't (and I'm guessing it can't) that's pretty stupid.

They'll be happy to harass those people, no sweat.

Magorn

2013-01-23 04:03:12 PM

Rincewind53: WalkingCarpet: In other news, false arrests and harassment of innocent civilians to increase by a brazillion percent.

The Supreme Court has already ruled that warrantless use of thermal imaging cameras when used to see if a house is emitting too much heat (indicating a grow operation) is a 4th Amendment violation. Does the NYPD really think the warrantless use of terahertz scanning technology to detect metal items hidden in people's clothing is constitutional?

'm with you on this one, the bright line for what constitutes a search has always been "in plain view" so using magnifying optics to peer into a place is okay since you could already see what was thee and the person only had to draw a curtain to protect their privacy. However using microphones or other devices to hear what you otherwise could not hear is not okay because the person, in a place where they have a reasonable expectation of privacy, can unwittinglyhave that privacy breached. That's the logic they applied to the use of thermal scanners, seeing into the IR is not "plain" sight, so no go without a warrant.

This has GOT to fall into the same category, even with the reduced expectation of privacy that applies while in public. I assume the NYPD will claim they only use this device when they already have the level of "reasonable suspicion" that would allow them to do a Terry stop, but we've seen how wantonly they abuse that already, so I think the courts will view this with a high degree of suspicion

Fark Rye For Many Whores

2013-01-23 04:03:16 PM

MythDragon

2013-01-23 04:03:39 PM

WalkingCarpet: Sure it's kind of a crappy lo-res pic but just because something's in the shape of a gun doesn't mean it's a gun.

Agrees

King Something

2013-01-23 04:03:54 PM

Ohlookabutterfly: King Something: King Something: AbbeySomeone: What are the health risks associated with this type of device?

Greatly increased risk of Sudden Non-White Death Syndrome, for one.

And for another, press releases that read something like this:
"The device indicated that the subject may have been carrying a high-power firearm. The risk to our officers was too great, so they had to eliminate the perceived threat before it could become a real threat."
whenever the NYPD puts a litterer or a jaywalker down like a rabid dog.

Just realized a third risk:

Combining the first two risks with the NYPD's extreme hatred of Occupiers:
"The scanners indicated that several protesters may have been carrying concealed firearms and their behavior indicated they were about to brandish their weapons and open fire. Our officers' orders were to maintain the peace at the protests and defend themselves with any amount of force they deemed necessary, including deadly force; they were not sent in as an execution squad or to quell a civilian uprising of people protesting against the NYPD's most generous donors, our officers were just following orders.

"The fact that well over 95% of the dozens of persons killed in the crossfire and 85% of the thousands arrested were black or Hispanic is purely coincidental; there was a white male among the deceased and not all white arrestees were released without charges, so the NAACP, the ACLU and other civil rights groups claiming this was a case of ethnic cleansing are the real racists."

Thats there is a whole lot of "all whites are racists" butthurt, man. Don't you know the three most beautiful words in the english language are "I forgive you"? Stop perpetuating that ridiculous victim mindset and get on with your life.

I was going for the "The NYPD are a bunch of racist assholes" angle. If you doubt my word, look up Amadou Diallo, Abner Louima or Sean Bell.

Or the cop who was driving drunk and ran over and killed a pregnant Hispanic woman, her two kids and her unborn child. He got convicted on all counts but his sentences were served concurrently instead of consecutively, and he was eligible for parole about halfway through his sentence; had the roles been reversed and the pregnant Hispanic woman run over the cop while driving drunk, she would have long since been executed.

barefoot in the head

2013-01-23 04:04:08 PM

AbbeySomeone: What are the health risks associated with this type of device? Has this been researched?

The upside is, everyone will be postively radiant - or negatively, as the case may be.

Easy Reader

2013-01-23 04:04:56 PM

Wow--two amendments at the same time.

SpectroBoy

2013-01-23 04:05:46 PM

The DAY they set one up near MY house is the day I file the lawsuit for health risks.

It's one thing to be scanned once and a while. It's another thing to have the device parked outside your home or business.

HartRend

2013-01-23 04:05:51 PM

NYPD has more people than the Coast Guard.

Holocaust Agnostic

2013-01-23 04:06:15 PM

oldfarthenry: guns

legal

LEGAL!

LEGAL!!

LEEEEEGAAAALLL!!!

MY RIGHT AS A 'MERIKUH!!!!

HELP, MY RIGHTS ARE BEING VIOLATED!!!!

Yes, a bunch of people using guns in a non-threating (except for that one suffed rabbit that appears to be in trouble)matter is pretty meh.

And police using litteral farking X-ray machines to scan people just walking down the street is a pretty goddamn horrible infringement.

Ennuipoet

2013-01-23 04:06:36 PM

BronyMedic: Well, I for one am proud of your commitment to combatting homophobia in such a manner. Even if I don't really like Party Rock.

Yeah that would've better if I'd made it clear it was supposed under my clothing. Well, this is why I am stuck in the AAA League of Fark Commenting.

HartRend

2013-01-23 04:06:46 PM

R.A.Danny: HartRend: Did I really just use my tinfoil hat kung fu in a practical manner?... In regard to the government trying to scan me? Holy shiat, maybe I'm not crazy!

You're crazy.

They're still out to trample your rights though.

The sane man, in an insane world IS crazy!

Marcus Aurelius

2013-01-23 04:07:00 PM

BronyMedic: AbbeySomeone: What are the health risks associated with this type of device? Has this been researched?

Pretty sure it's the same risk as a Directional Wireless antenna. That is to say none. It looks like a passive scanning system.

WalkingCarpet: Not only that but this is what they're going to base stopping and frisking someone on?

Your assumption is that they're going to use it to base stops and frisks on, and not have a heads up on whether someone they're stopping for another reason has a weapon.

This is the NYPD. We can safely assume they'll gun people down based solely on this device. Unlike Philly, where they'll do it without the benefit of any device whatsoever.

HoratioGates

2013-01-23 04:07:21 PM

Meh. I just hope it doesn't detect my penis. I have to wrap it in tinfoil or the aliens can control it and ever since the accident it's shaped kind of like a gun. I guess it won't really be a problem unless there is an assault weapon ban.

It's interesting that the gun's rights people are up in arms about the gun's rights issue and not the unreasonable search issue which has been plaguing NYC for a while now. The biggest problem I see with this is that, like all police intervention, it can be enforced selectively. If this was searching every person the car drove past with computer object ID and a little alarm and a log reference and an automatic search of every individual I'd be less concerned than how it will probably be used. Hell, even the alarm version is likely to be driven in certain neighborhoods more than others. As for the unreasonable search issue, if it's a passive scanner, you have to decide if you think that's an invasion of the person or not. If you see someone with an illegal object, you are allowed to confront them. What if you see them because you are wearing prescription glasses? How spotting them down the beach with binoculars? A traffic camera? Night vision glasses (but they are on a public street), hell, or just because they are under a streetlight (put there no doubt to enhance the ability to see).

That said, even although this registers as 'meh' on my radar, I don't think policy like this should be set at a police department level. It should be legislated. We have a 'try it and see if the courts overturn it' policy, which doesn't serve the public well.

Ow! That was my feelings!

2013-01-23 04:08:05 PM

redmid17: Nem Wan: NYPD has something like 35,000 officers. That's bigger than the population of a lot of small towns. There should be an independent 50-member force that arrests NYPD officers for violating people's rights.

Do you really think NYC can afford all that overtime?

Heh, no they can't. Bloomberg is gonna leave NYC over a $100 Billion, yes BILLION, in debt when he leaves office. New Yorkers sure know how to pick winners as their reps. Link

whither_apophis

2013-01-23 04:08:07 PM

Only if the NYPD also stands around with drug sniffing dogs at various points on Wall St.

/yeah I didn't think so

Smeggy Smurf

2013-01-23 04:08:15 PM

Wait till somebody packing a dildo with a pistol grip is stopped. I hope it's some religious prude for added lulz

Abe Vigoda's Ghost

2013-01-23 04:09:14 PM

Holocaust Agnostic: oldfarthenry: guns

legal

LEGAL!

LEGAL!!

LEEEEEGAAAALLL!!!

MY RIGHT AS A 'MERIKUH!!!!

HELP, MY RIGHTS ARE BEING VIOLATED!!!!

Yes, a bunch of people using guns in a non-threating (except for that one suffed rabbit that appears to be in trouble) matter is pretty meh.

And police using litteral farking X-ray machines to scan people just walking down the street is a pretty goddamn horrible infringement.

That stuffed rabbit is f*cked. We obviously need gun control, and xray machines.

TheJoe03

2013-01-23 04:09:22 PM

R.A.Danny: It's sad isn't it? I know no one is gonna use their AR15 to "Water the tree of democracy" or any of that bullshiat, but a lot of gun enthusiasts do see their Second Amendment rights as a canary in a coal mine. Yeah, there are some nuts out there, but can it be said that they have no reason do resent what is and has gone on? The sickening authoritarian mindset is probably the least "American" value that one can come up with.

Amen.

LasersHurt

2013-01-23 04:09:45 PM

"Illegal guns are a huge problem, but there is literally nothing you are allowed to do to search for illegal guns."

dittybopper

2013-01-23 04:09:59 PM

Ivo Shandor: Weaver95: that's ok, I wasn't using my freedom anyways. I wonder if you can sterilize people with this thing? crank it up, zap sperm from 10 meters out and go cruising around the streets with it.

It appears to be a passive device, like a thermal imaging camera but looking at a different section of the electromagnetic spectrum. The privacy concerns are valid, but the only health risk is an indirect one from high-velocity lead poisoning.

You could in effect blind them by radiating in the same band in which they are looking.

Also, wet clothes would defeat this system, as would clothing made out of metal fibers like lamé.

Plus, you could introduce a *HUGE* number of false positives by simply arranging metal-containing articles like a cellphone and a pen or small flashlight into a "gun like" configuration,

Another thing to consider is that the waves used can penetrate plastics. A gun like a Glock, without the magazine inserted into it, isn't going to look like a gun, just a rectangular blob that could be any number of legal objects.

j__z

2013-01-23 04:10:18 PM

Rincewind53

The Supreme Court has already ruled that warrantless use of thermal imaging cameras when used to see if a house is emitting too much heat (indicating a grow operation) is a 4th Amendment violation. Does the NYPD really think the warrantless use of terahertz scanning technology to detect metal items hidden in people's clothing is constitutional?

Judging by some of the recent law passed, I don't think the NYPD or NY state/city government care all that much what the constitution says.

dittybopper

2013-01-23 04:11:04 PM

Weaver95: Ivo Shandor: Weaver95: that's ok, I wasn't using my freedom anyways. I wonder if you can sterilize people with this thing? crank it up, zap sperm from 10 meters out and go cruising around the streets with it.

It appears to be a passive device, like a thermal imaging camera but looking at a different section of the electromagnetic spectrum. The privacy concerns are valid, but the only health risk is an indirect one from high-velocity lead poisoning.

well that takes all the fun out of it. I wonder if there's a way to manufacture underwear that'd scramble the scanner?

Just wear wet clothes. Terahertz waves are blocked by liquid water.

Joe Blowme

2013-01-23 04:12:20 PM

WalkingCarpet: In other news, false arrests and harassment of innocent civilians to increase by a brazillion percent.

Its ok dude, they are only going after guns

/its for the children

dittybopper

2013-01-23 04:12:32 PM

LasersHurt: "Illegal guns are a huge problem, but there is literally nothing you are allowed to do to search for illegal guns."

No.

"Illegal guns may be a problem, but that doesn't give you carte blanche to run roughshod over the Constitution. You still have to follow the rules."

Grapple

2013-01-23 04:12:46 PM

I'm going to have to support the NWA's position on this one...

redmid17

2013-01-23 04:13:27 PM

LasersHurt: "Illegal guns are a huge problem, but there is literally nothing you are allowed to do to search for illegal guns."

You're not very good at this whole constitution thing are you?

utah dude

2013-01-23 04:15:42 PM

the image is racist, i mean, attacking those green-blood'ed attractive and successful urbanites? so 1980.

Tanthalas39

2013-01-23 04:16:15 PM

Same idiots upset about this are okay with infringing on other constitutional amendments.

utah dude

2013-01-23 04:17:16 PM

AbbeySomeone: What are the health risks associated with this type of device? Has this been researched?

it's passive, so the risk is to the operator getting a tv-monitor focus headache / eye-problems.

LasersHurt

2013-01-23 04:18:20 PM

dittybopper: "Illegal guns may be a problem, but that doesn't give you carte blanche to run roughshod over the Constitution. You still have to follow the rules."

redmid17: You're not very good at this whole constitution thing are you?

I didn't say a word in support of this did I? Or against the constitution?

It's just a hard argument. People want to push off the burden of gun crime onto "aaaah illegal handguns in the cities hurbleflerb" but there's never a suggestion on how that can get better. I'm not convinced that passively scanning everyone is the right way to go, but here we are.

Stone Meadow

2013-01-23 04:18:29 PM

Dimensio: Stone Meadow: And a rash of new plastic guns hit the market in 3, 2, 1...

Will these plastic guns utilize plastic springs, plastic slides, plastic magazines, plastic barrels and plastic ammunition?

Why not? Every part of a fully functioning handgun can be made from plastic, tho Federal law requires a minimum magnetic metal content (about 3 ounces, iirc). The real question is, will guns like that get more popular, and would they defeat this detection capability? I was just posting a snarky Fark meme with my 3, 2, 1 crack, but ultimately it will be an interesting question.

I also bet there are lots of easy ways to defeat the scanner without going to those extremes.

ZackDanger

2013-01-23 04:18:41 PM

Abe Vigoda's Ghost:

Oh yeah, that's pretty stealthy.

Made me think of this:

wildcardjack

2013-01-23 04:19:21 PM

Skyd1v

2013-01-23 04:20:13 PM

I've never been to New York (although I hope to visit next fall sometime just to check it out), but it's very interesting to me reading the type of relationship the NYPD has with the public - at least how it is reported in the media. Things seem calmer up here in the frozen wastelands.

Anecdotal example: A few months ago I wasn't paying attention to my speed and got pulled over by the Highway Patrol. (dumb, I know) Trooper came up to my window to get my license/insurance and I told him I was carrying a concealed weapon - as required by law.

He thanked me for telling him, took my information back to his car, did...whatever they do, then advised me to slow it down and be on my way. No dramatics, no roadside frisking, no putting me in handcuffs "for safety", nothing.

_{/I still kept my hands well away from that side of my coat though. Didn't want any misunderstandings.}

Dimensio

2013-01-23 04:20:25 PM

Stone Meadow: Every part of a fully functioning handgun can be made from plastic, tho Federal law requires a minimum magnetic metal content (about 3 ounces, iirc).

I await reference to a fully functional firearm made entirely of plastic, including the barrel, any incorporated springs and the ammunition.

Ravage

2013-01-23 04:22:20 PM

sheep snorter: Sales of a new product to skyrocket. Its a piece of metal in a gun shape. Used to harass the fark out of the police scanners and the more skilled individuals can place it into unsuspecting peoples pockets or purses.

/Oh the bump and stuff(opposite of the bump and pull) on the subway is going to be that much more fun.

first thing I thought of

Pockafrusta

2013-01-23 04:22:31 PM

Grapple: I'm going to have to support the NWA's position on this one...

I concur. Straight from the underground.

weiserfireman

2013-01-23 04:22:40 PM

Dimensio: Stone Meadow: Every part of a fully functioning handgun can be made from plastic, tho Federal law requires a minimum magnetic metal content (about 3 ounces, iirc).

I await reference to a fully functional firearm made entirely of plastic, including the barrel, any incorporated springs and the ammunition.

Yeah, I am waiting for that too. I would expect some sort of all ceramic gun before we see a plastic one.

blatz514

2013-01-23 04:22:42 PM

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: [assets.nydailynews.com image 635x446]

Oh yeah, that's pretty stealthy.

It looks like a very tall voting machine.

kindms

2013-01-23 04:23:14 PM

Silverstaff: Rincewind53: WalkingCarpet: In other news, false arrests and harassment of innocent civilians to increase by a brazillion percent.

The Supreme Court has already ruled that warrantless use of thermal imaging cameras when used to see if a house is emitting too much heat (indicating a grow operation) is a 4th Amendment violation. Does the NYPD really think the warrantless use of terahertz scanning technology to detect metal items hidden in people's clothing is constitutional?

The NYPD doesn't really care what any authority other than the Mayor of New York says.

Considering that the NYPD actively works with and in conjunction with the FBI, CIA, DEA, ATF etc and has officers working overseas I would imagine they get their marching orders from much higher up than just Bloomberg.

This is the same dept that thinks it has the authority to walk up to any individual on the streets of NY and frisk them without probable cause. They actively argue that this is a needed crime stopping tool.

They were getting heat from the pot smokers so Cuomo decided to give them shelter by offering to decrim small amounts (which in NYC is already a non arrestable offense). The police were finding people with weed on them during these stop and frisks. The issue is that Terry stops only allow an officer to check for WEAPONS everything else is off limits. They were basically forcing people to turn out their pockets, if you had weed they would arrest you for having weed in public which is arrestable vs. a bench ticket for simple possession. That quietly went away and the NYPD continued their stop and frisk.

How anyone can look at stop and frisk and not call it unconstitutional is BEYOND me. It is the very epitome of unlawful search. Walking down the street minding your own business and the police jump out and throw you against the wall and tell you to empty your pockets. The police command that authorized this should all be put behind bars for the 1000s of civil rights violations.

The NYPD is where laws and procedures are tired and honed before being exported to police dept all over the country.

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