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(NPR)   More than fifty percent of high school students don't read good, and since we don't have a Derek Zoolander to build a center, we must change the reading standards instead of actually identifying and fixing the cause   ( npr.org) divider line
    More: Fail, Zoolander, high schools, standards, language arts, Harper Lee, 46th state, Malcolm Gladwell  
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10798 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Jan 2013 at 9:35 PM (5 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



416 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-01-20 08:34:11 PM  
What's there to identify?  Read to your kids when they're young.
 
2013-01-20 08:48:16 PM  
They don't need to read.  They just need to be smart enough to push a button on a machine.
 
2013-01-20 08:48:41 PM  

Mentat: What's there to identify?  Read to your kids when they're young.


LOL your soopid--YOLO!
 
2013-01-20 08:56:21 PM  
F*ck it. They're doomed anyway.

Teach them to make meth. At least they'll learn a trade.
 
2013-01-20 09:09:31 PM  
Am I the only one who finds it ironic that subby couldn't comprehend the contents of the article?   Nobody's changed the standards - in point of fact that's the central tenet of the article.  Reading scores have dropped, and so there is a new curriculum designed to raise them.

What I suspect is happening with reading scores is that it's easier than ever to skip the major works by scoping the Internet for the basic plot and some nuggets to make the teacher think the book has been read.  It's much harder to do that with non-fiction works, critical essays and things of the sort.

I'm not sure what Common Core is, but a 70/30 mix of non-fiction to fiction is not a terrible thing, in my opinion.  The ability to digest complex written ideas is of primary importance.  I love literature, and believe that critical genres and authors should be introduced universally by the end of high school, but we have a tendency to over-do many of the genres.  I'm also doubtful of its necessity for reading comprehension. For example reading Shakespeare is important, but more than one or two of his works is unnecessary.   High school lit should be like tapas.  Small servings of a wide variety of genres.
 
2013-01-20 09:12:53 PM  

Babwa Wawa: Am I the only one who finds it ironic that subby couldn't comprehend the contents of the article?   Nobody's changed the standards - in point of fact that's the central tenet of the article.  Reading scores have dropped, and so there is a new curriculum designed to raise them.

What I suspect is happening with reading scores is that it's easier than ever to skip the major works by scoping the Internet for the basic plot and some nuggets to make the teacher think the book has been read.  It's much harder to do that with non-fiction works, critical essays and things of the sort.

I'm not sure what Common Core is, but a 70/30 mix of non-fiction to fiction is not a terrible thing, in my opinion.  The ability to digest complex written ideas is of primary importance.  I love literature, and believe that critical genres and authors should be introduced universally by the end of high school, but we have a tendency to over-do many of the genres.  I'm also doubtful of its necessity for reading comprehension. For example reading Shakespeare is important, but more than one or two of his works is unnecessary.   High school lit should be like tapas.  Small servings of a wide variety of genres.


TL; DR.  Chk out my Twitter feed!
 
2013-01-20 09:15:06 PM  
Kids!
I don't know what's wrong with these kids today!
Kids!
Who can understand anything they say?
burningsettlerscabin.comView Full Size
 
2013-01-20 09:21:17 PM  
Surely there must be a way we can blame this on guns.
 
2013-01-20 09:28:05 PM  
ZOMG sux too b them.
 
2013-01-20 09:28:09 PM  

BravadoGT: Surely there must be a way we can blame this on guns.



Well, they can obviously read the f*cking owner's manual.
 
2013-01-20 09:31:04 PM  

Babwa Wawa: but we have a tendency to over-do many of the genres.


I am all for whatever reduces studying Melville or Dickens.  I read a quite a bit, but for the life of me I can't read anything by those two without feeling like I'm doing work.
 
2013-01-20 09:36:41 PM  
Yeah.....we're gonna need more taxes.
 
2013-01-20 09:38:04 PM  
Ban guns!
 
2013-01-20 09:38:25 PM  

Lsherm: Babwa Wawa: but we have a tendency to over-do many of the genres.

I am all for whatever reduces studying Melville or Dickens.  I read a quite a bit, but for the life of me I can't read anything by those two without feeling like I'm doing work.


These guys wrote in the days when authors were paid by the word.
 
2013-01-20 09:38:29 PM  
We should ban high capacity magazines.

/there's as much evidence it will improve reading as reducing gun violence afterall
 
2013-01-20 09:39:18 PM  
I dnt lk this post. amrite? brb my bff.
 
2013-01-20 09:39:25 PM  

StoPPeRmobile: Ban guns!


Arghh beat me to it
 
2013-01-20 09:40:16 PM  
So that's why people complain about reading subtitles on a movie!
 
2013-01-20 09:40:22 PM  

Lsherm: Babwa Wawa: but we have a tendency to over-do many of the genres.

I am all for whatever reduces studying Melville or Dickens.  I read a quite a bit, but for the life of me I can't read anything by those two without feeling like I'm doing work.


You think you've got it bad? In Canada, we had to read "The Handmaids Tale".
 
2013-01-20 09:40:35 PM  

StoPPeRmobile: Ban guns!


I was going to laugh at you for a shiatty troll attempt, but then I figured out that's probably the only sentence you can read or type.
 
2013-01-20 09:40:37 PM  
And people wonder why public education is no longer a sacred cow. They have been failing students on so many levels. It's sad because public education is one of the pillars of. Stable notion nd I can't help but see the connection between our weak public Ed and a faltering nation.
 
2013-01-20 09:40:45 PM  
You took God out of books!
 
2013-01-20 09:40:46 PM  
More than fifty percent of high school students don't read good

They apparently don't write well either.
 
2013-01-20 09:40:52 PM  

amquelbettamin: We should ban high capacity magazines.

/there's as much evidence it will improve reading as reducing gun violence afterall


No..if anything, magazines with MORE articles will at least help stop the slide. They need less ads too.
 
2013-01-20 09:41:06 PM  

netcentric: Yeah.....we're gonna need more taxes.


I'm ok with this if it mans are kids can reed good.
 
2013-01-20 09:41:14 PM  
I have a theory on this and English class in general for example.

We don't really have a NEED for anything but the basics in our society as a whole.  There is not really any solid reason to have above a very basic ability to read, write, or even speak for that matter, as most of the common thoughts and ideas we need to communicate within our society have been distilled down to be recognizable or intelligible to the lowest common denominator.

If people are not challenged to develop and learn and maintain a higher level, why will they retain or teach their own children similar skills or even try to reinforce learning a higher level than they use day to day?  Yes, we try to teach it, but what are we doing to make it so that the people USE that knowledge or retain it.  Similar to many sciences and mathematics  we teach it but many people don't LEARN it because...why remember or retain that knowledge if it is never used except by a small fraction of them?
 
2013-01-20 09:41:25 PM  
The College Board makes money by telling Americans that their children will fail at life if they don't buy college board courses and materials. I trust them about as much as I trust Pearson and the other test makers.
 
2013-01-20 09:41:53 PM  
i.qkme.meView Full Size
 


/oblig
 
2013-01-20 09:42:55 PM  

Nuclear Monk: amquelbettamin: We should ban high capacity magazines.

/there's as much evidence it will improve reading as reducing gun violence afterall

No..if anything, magazines with MORE articles will at least help stop the slide. They need less ads too.


Awesome!
i0.kym-cdn.comView Full Size
 
2013-01-20 09:43:39 PM  

CruiserTwelve: More than fifty percent of high school students don't read good

They apparently don't write well either.


*sigh*
 
2013-01-20 09:46:37 PM  

Contribution Corsair: I have a theory on this and English class in general for example.

We don't really have a NEED for anything but the basics in our society as a whole.  There is not really any solid reason to have above a very basic ability to read, write, or even speak for that matter, as most of the common thoughts and ideas we need to communicate within our society have been distilled down to be recognizable or intelligible to the lowest common denominator.

If people are not challenged to develop and learn and maintain a higher level, why will they retain or teach their own children similar skills or even try to reinforce learning a higher level than they use day to day?  Yes, we try to teach it, but what are we doing to make it so that the people USE that knowledge or retain it.  Similar to many sciences and mathematics  we teach it but many people don't LEARN it because...why remember or retain that knowledge if it is never used except by a small fraction of them?


I tend to think that there is some value in getting it in to kids' heads that there are things like science and math out there that have a good idea how the universe works, rather than 'magic' or 'god'. Not from the standpoint of wanting to deny them faith, but rather to help keep politicians and religious leaders in check. I fully acknowledge this has been only marginally successful.
 
2013-01-20 09:47:30 PM  
I'd ask the assembled to weigh in on attempting to identify the problems and raise achievement rather than lower standards, but I feel that type of idea is utterly ridiculous.

/DNRTFA
//teacher
///disgusted
 
2013-01-20 09:48:12 PM  

WhippingBoy: CruiserTwelve: More than fifty percent of high school students don't read good

They apparently don't write well either.

*sigh*


Was the grammatical error in the headline not intentionally made? I'd have done it.
 
2013-01-20 09:48:33 PM  

WhippingBoy: Lsherm: Babwa Wawa: but we have a tendency to over-do many of the genres.

I am all for whatever reduces studying Melville or Dickens.  I read a quite a bit, but for the life of me I can't read anything by those two without feeling like I'm doing work.

You think you've got it bad? In Canada, we had to read "The Handmaids Tale".


I feel that The Handmaids Tale is useful because it gets referenced a lot on FARK, especially when the article involves the GOP.
 
2013-01-20 09:48:52 PM  
i rede jus fiyn + mah budz unnerstan mah txtz + sxtz so fukov! lol!
 
2013-01-20 09:49:36 PM  
My daughter is 10 and her mother still reads to her every night. They went to B&N today to get books and I'm constantly getting notices from the library about her soon-to-be-overdue books.

/yeah yeah, first world problems
 
2013-01-20 09:49:44 PM  

cyberspacedout: WhippingBoy: CruiserTwelve: More than fifty percent of high school students don't read good

They apparently don't write well either.

*sigh*

Was the grammatical error in the headline not intentionally made? I'd have done it.


Of course it was intentional. That's the joke.
 
2013-01-20 09:50:22 PM  

Proteios1: And people wonder why public education is no longer a sacred cow. They have been failing students on so many levels. It's sad because public education is one of the pillars of. Stable notion nd I can't help but see the connection between our weak public Ed and a faltering nation.


Well, we have had half the country continually trying to defund, overtax, and dismantle our public education system because Jebus and 'Merica. So there you go.
 
2013-01-20 09:50:22 PM  
Fifty percent of school kids are sub-median. We must lower the standards.

Why doesn't this work?

Let's do it again!
 
2013-01-20 09:50:30 PM  
Nuclear Monk:
I tend to think that there is some value in getting it in to kids' heads that there are things like science and math out there that have a good idea how the universe works, rather than 'magic' or 'god'. Not from the standpoint of wanting to deny them faith, but rather to help keep politicians and religious leaders in check. I fully acknowledge this has been only marginally successful.

True.  However when talking about how well a group has learned or can do something, retention and use is more of a key aspect.

By no means do I advocate not exposing, but more I'm of the mind as a society we could do more to make it worthwhile to actually know these things and maintain such knowledge somehow.  Not entirely sure HOW but I can dream eh?
 
2013-01-20 09:50:32 PM  

WhippingBoy: You think you've got it bad? In Canada, we had to read "The Handmaids Tale".


I've been meaning to finish that novel.  I agree it could be better, but I have such a hard-on for dystopic novels.

Oddly enough, my Canuck wife has never heard of it.
 
2013-01-20 09:51:11 PM  

Proteios1: And people wonder why public education is no longer a sacred cow. They have been failing students on so many levels. It's sad because public education is one of the pillars of. Stable notion nd I can't help but see the connection between our weak public Ed and a faltering nation.


Parents who think teaching their children is someone else's problem and actively stay out of their kid's education until they get a call from the school are just as much to blame for this.
 
2013-01-20 09:51:30 PM  

IAmTheTagTeamChampions: /DNRTFA
//teacher


Just let this nugget sink in.
 
2013-01-20 09:53:28 PM  

Proteios1: And people wonder why public education is no longer a sacred cow. They have been failing students on so many levels. It's sad because public education is one of the pillars of. Stable notion nd I can't help but see the connection between our weak public Ed and a faltering nation.


autocorrect?
 
2013-01-20 09:54:19 PM  
To get students to think deeper about a story, for example, Harper Lee's To Kill a Mockingbird, a novel with deceptively simple language, is paired with Malcolm Gladwell's New Yorker piece that alleges it is an elitist story.

Will they also teach kids that Malcolm Gladwell is a douche bag who will say anything so he can get people talking about his latest essay?

The downside, however, is that there is only so much time in a school year, and students can't read everything. Certain compromises, like abridging plays by Shakespeare and other storied authors, have to be made.

In the audio version they talk a bit more how they only read a few chapters from "Julius Caesar." What a joke to call that education.
 
2013-01-20 09:54:34 PM  
"So many kids, often as many as 50 percent, graduate high school ... demonstrably not ready for the demands of a first-year college course or job-training program," says David Coleman, president of the College Board, a nonprofit membership organization that administers standardized tests like the SAT.


"To graduate" is a verb, and it can be both transitive and intransitive. A transitive verb takes an object and an intransitive verb doesn't. The school may graduate students (transitive verb) but a student graduates from school (intransitive verb). I can't imagine how the president of the College Board could make this mistake; he sounds illiterate.

imageshack.usView Full Size
 
2013-01-20 09:55:33 PM  
couldn't we keep the English classes focused on the fiction classics as always and get the history classes to rely more on primary source material?
 
2013-01-20 09:56:00 PM  

doyner: IAmTheTagTeamChampions: /DNRTFA
//teacher

Just let this nugget sink in.


Just finished, relaized TFA was talking about standards as in Common Core, and realized my comment was not relevant (though I stand by it).

Head hung, snark deserved, etc. My bad.
 
2013-01-20 09:56:51 PM  

RabidJade: Proteios1: And people wonder why public education is no longer a sacred cow. They have been failing students on so many levels. It's sad because public education is one of the pillars of. Stable notion nd I can't help but see the connection between our weak public Ed and a faltering nation.

Parents who think teaching their children is someone else's problem and actively stay out of their kid's education until they get a call from the school are just as much to blame for this.


Of course, parents who do this are labled "helicopter parents" by the school system and other parents. Our culture is so confused right now, and that is by design. If we have really smart kids then the charlatans can't stay in power in religion or politics (I mean Rick Perry is a governor FFS).

You can't sell useless crap if people have critical thinking skills or understand statisitcs.
 
2013-01-20 09:57:15 PM  
Bann speeling buks!
 
2013-01-20 09:57:32 PM  
Welcome to Sagan's nightmare.

"I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time -- when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness...

The dumbing down of American is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30 second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance"

― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
 
2013-01-20 09:57:48 PM  

IAmTheTagTeamChampions: doyner: IAmTheTagTeamChampions: /DNRTFA
//teacher

Just let this nugget sink in.

Just finished, relaized realized TFA was talking about standards as in Common Core, and realized my comment was not relevant (though I stand by it).

Head hung, snark deserved, etc. My bad.


I'm just gonna quit right here. I wonder why the quality of education is so bad...
 
2013-01-20 09:58:19 PM  
I s don need no reedin skils. Obama sed he wil pay us fur white mans in justis. Obamah obamah obamah.
 
2013-01-20 09:58:21 PM  

BravadoGT: Surely there must be a way we can blame this on guns.


Don't call me Shirley.
 
2013-01-20 09:59:02 PM  

iaazathot: RabidJade: Proteios1: And people wonder why public education is no longer a sacred cow. They have been failing students on so many levels. It's sad because public education is one of the pillars of. Stable notion nd I can't help but see the connection between our weak public Ed and a faltering nation.

Parents who think teaching their children is someone else's problem and actively stay out of their kid's education until they get a call from the school are just as much to blame for this.

Of course, parents who do this are labled "helicopter parents" by the school system and other parents. Our culture is so confused right now, and that is by design. If we have really smart kids then the charlatans can't stay in power in religion or politics (I mean Rick Perry is a governor FFS).

You can't sell useless crap if people have critical thinking skills or understand statisitcs.


Without critical thinking skills, people also tend to smell conspiracy where there's none
 
2013-01-20 09:59:40 PM  
No one lowers standards, but developmental rates have not changed, nor has working memory. Further, raising standards without altering the structure of school is quick to place the reform in the growing failed pile...

Babwa Wawa: Nobody's changed the standards - in point of fact that's the central tenet of the article.  Reading scores have dropped, and so there is a new curriculum designed to raise them.


Common Core is a shift in standards which helps to build later content on previous standards, reduce excessive standards, and reduce processes for knowledge in standards as well as this split between literature and informational texts; this is not a curriculum itself. CCSS is not a curriculum itself and is actually less prescriptive for curriculum than the vast majority of state standards.
 
2013-01-20 10:00:26 PM  

Vodka Zombie: They don't need to read.  They just need to be smart enough to push a button on a machine.


Taco Bell's been using pictures instead of words for quite a while.

And I'm pretty sure their workforce is mostly English majors.

Excuse me while I go weep for the future of our nation.
 
2013-01-20 10:00:56 PM  
identifying and fixing the cause


The cause is stupid, and stupid can't be fixed.
 
2013-01-20 10:01:04 PM  

red5ish: "So many kids, often as many as 50 percent, graduate high school ... demonstrably not ready for the demands of a first-year college course or job-training program," says David Coleman, president of the College Board, a nonprofit membership organization that administers standardized tests like the SAT.


"To graduate" is a verb, and it can be both transitive and intransitive. A transitive verb takes an object and an intransitive verb doesn't. The school may graduate students (transitive verb) but a student graduates from school (intransitive verb). I can't imagine how the president of the College Board could make this mistake; he sounds illiterate.

[imageshack.us image 400x225]


So....what your saying is ...we don't need to know English good...to become the president of the College Board?
 
2013-01-20 10:02:19 PM  
wallpapersfor.netView Full Size
 
2013-01-20 10:02:22 PM  
Crap at reading and spelling?

There's an excuse for that.

You can call it dyslexia. Happy now? You're not dumb as fark and don't try, you have dyslexia. It's not your fault. It's not your fault....

Is dyslexia just a myth?
Dyslexia: a big, expensive myth
 
2013-01-20 10:03:45 PM  

red5ish: "To graduate" is a verb, and it can be both transitive and intransitive. A transitive verb takes an object and an intransitive verb doesn't. The school may graduate students (transitive verb) but a student graduates from school (intransitive verb). I can't imagine how the president of the College Board could make this mistake; he sounds illiterate.


It's idiomatic, biatch!
 
2013-01-20 10:03:53 PM  

cyberspacedout: WhippingBoy: CruiserTwelve: More than fifty percent of high school students don't read good

They apparently don't write well either.

*sigh*

Was the grammatical error in the headline not intentionally made? I'd have done it.


I don't rite good, but what, u xpekt, I caint fit inna dam bildin
 
2013-01-20 10:04:24 PM  
i.qkme.meView Full Size
 
2013-01-20 10:04:47 PM  
This thread makes me wish I were illiterate.
 
2013-01-20 10:05:45 PM  

enry: My daughter is 10 and her mother still reads to her every night. They went to B&N today to get books and I'm constantly getting notices from the library about her soon-to-be-overdue books.

/yeah yeah, first world problems


if there were more parents like you we wouldn't have subby links like this one. things will get much worse as the self-involved cell phone baby makers of today do an even worse job with their stinky diaper factories.
 
2013-01-20 10:05:59 PM  

Contribution Corsair: I have a theory


I have a suggestion for some light reading reading, speaking of education.
 
2013-01-20 10:06:52 PM  
Reading books is a good way to learn grammar and writing. I would not, however, recommend reading newspapers. Seriously, I have no idea when every newspaper in the U.S. decided to stop employing copy editors. I can't even get through an edition of my local newspaper, and the news links I read on Fark are equally poorly-written.
 
2013-01-20 10:07:32 PM  
Can't have a first world country with a third world population.
 
2013-01-20 10:08:00 PM  

The Southern Dandy: So....what your saying is ...we don't need to know English good...to become the president of the College Board?


No! What I meant was...oh fark it all. We now return you to your regular programming already in progress.
img689.imageshack.usView Full Size
 
2013-01-20 10:08:39 PM  
Funny. I watched that movie today.
 
2013-01-20 10:08:39 PM  
Unionizing teachers has brought us here.
 
2013-01-20 10:11:46 PM  
The grammar in that headline is making my eyes bleed.
 
2013-01-20 10:12:55 PM  

fnordfocus: red5ish: "To graduate" is a verb, and it can be both transitive and intransitive. A transitive verb takes an object and an intransitive verb doesn't. The school may graduate students (transitive verb) but a student graduates from school (intransitive verb). I can't imagine how the president of the College Board could make this mistake; he sounds illiterate.

It's idiomatic, biatch!


It's grammatically incorrect, biatch.
imageshack.usView Full Size

We are not Nazis, but when we speak, you listen.
 
2013-01-20 10:15:26 PM  
It should be: can't read well.
 
2013-01-20 10:15:48 PM  

red5ish: The Southern Dandy: So....what your saying is ...we don't need to know English good...to become the president of the College Board?

No! What I meant was...oh fark it all. We now return you to your regular programming already in progress.
[img689.imageshack.us image 668x375]


I have a cousin who saw Bigfoot once. That dumbass ain't never gonna be a College President. I told him "You coulda caught bigfoot just by putting a bunch of Unisom in a hamburger". Can you imagine how rich he'd be if he caught Bigfoot? Who doesn't carry a box of Unisom with them when they go camping? What a dumbass!

Oh, Two and half men is on now.
 
2013-01-20 10:16:45 PM  

amquelbettamin: We should ban high capacity magazines.


The Economist? National Geographic?
 
2013-01-20 10:17:16 PM  
largedon: Welcome to Sagan's nightmare.

"I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time -- when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness...

The dumbing down of American is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30 second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance"

― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
 
2013-01-20 10:19:00 PM  

WhippingBoy: Lsherm: Babwa Wawa: but we have a tendency to over-do many of the genres.

I am all for whatever reduces studying Melville or Dickens.  I read a quite a bit, but for the life of me I can't read anything by those two without feeling like I'm doing work.

You think you've got it bad? In Canada, we had to read "The Handmaids Tale".


I didn't have to. Yay! The only one I remember reading for sure is To Kill a Mockingbird. I also remember covering hamlet, because they showed us the Mel Gibson movie after we read the play. The rest of whatever I took in HS english has escaped me.

/was in HS in the early 90's
//Fredericton, NB
 
2013-01-20 10:19:04 PM  

Phaeon: I feel that The Handmaids Tale is useful because it gets referenced a lot on FARK, especially when the article involves the GOP.


True enough: the idea of a Christian theocracy dominating the modern Western world is merely flattering leftist paranoia at a time when, among the religions, Christianity is in retreat and Islam is expanding its influence.
 
2013-01-20 10:20:27 PM  

CruiserTwelve: More than fifty percent of high school students don't read good

They apparently don't write well either.


Somebody hasn't seen Zoolander...
 
2013-01-20 10:20:33 PM  
Read a book, you little shiats. I had to.
 
2013-01-20 10:21:09 PM  
I'm almost at the point where I would pay my students to read. They don't read anything except the Internet. When I assign books, articles, poems, or anything written, all I hear is how difficult it is to read the  whole thing.

I've tried everything, too. Graphic novels, traditional novels, young adult, performance poetry (YouTube has some great poetry slam performances), you name it. I'm constantly wracking my brain to find stuff my kids will actually read. It's extremely frustrating. And sadly, more often than not, parents will tell me their child doesn't have time/can't/won't/whatever read, rather than trying to get them to read.

Not to mention the opportunities to cheat because of the Internet.

But yeah, blame the teachers. We've changed SO much since I was in school - when people actually would read.

//Get off my lawn.
 
2013-01-20 10:21:10 PM  
You want to see the problem. Look at home. Look at the asinine rhetoric on internet boards. Kids don't have discussions of real substance at home. Parents are too busy or incapable themselves. We want schools to fix society. Kids' ability to string together an argument that holds water is non-existent.

And by protecting their fragile egos we have taught them that failure is bad! You want your kid to be successful. Teach them to fail. Then teach them it's ok to fail. Teach them that after they fail they try again after having analyzed their first attempt (see first paragraph for the problem with that).
 
2013-01-20 10:22:08 PM  
I did a little reading on this and what a relief it is to find that White Children are not doing any worse. Whew.

It seems that adding more minorities to our country and expecting them to perform the same as white kids is causing problems. Especially when you don't want higher education to look too white.

Here's one solution:

Florida Passes Plan For Racially-Based Academic Goals


Then there is that persistant black / white gap.

On average, black students typically score one standard deviation below white students on standardized tests-roughly the difference in performance between the average 4th grader and the average 8th grader. Historically, what has come to be known as the black-white test-score gap has emerged before children enter kindergarten and has tended to widen over time.

And now we find out that Head Start has been a waste of money!


HHS' latest Head Start Impact Study found taxpayers aren't getting a good return on this "investment." According to the congressionally-mandated report, Head Start has little to no impact on cognitive, social-emotional, health, or parenting practices of its participants. In fact, on a few measures, access to the program actually produced negative effects.
The HHS' scientifically-rigorous study tracked 5,000 children who were randomly assigned to either a group receiving Head Start services or a group that did not participate in Head Start. It followed their progression from ages three or four through the end of third grade. The third-grade evaluation is a continuation to HHS' first-grade study, which followed children through the end of first grade.

The first-grade evaluation found that any benefits the children may have accrued while in the Head


So to be honest, I don't think there is an education problem for white kids. The national numbers goes down as their percentage of the population goes down.

This diversity thing is becoming a pain in the ass.
 
2013-01-20 10:22:09 PM  
It was my understanding that there would be no child left behind.
 
2013-01-20 10:24:12 PM  
There are so many easy ways to circumvent cheating- changing up books to read, making kids write papers in class, oral tests...but apparently, that would be too hard...for the schools.
 
2013-01-20 10:25:01 PM  
You mean reading "Twilight" is not all the education kids need? Shocking.
 
2013-01-20 10:25:23 PM  

The Southern Dandy: red5ish: The Southern Dandy: So....what your saying is ...we don't need to know English good...to become the president of the College Board?

No! What I meant was...oh fark it all. We now return you to your regular programming already in progress.
[img689.imageshack.us image 668x375]

I have a cousin who saw Bigfoot once. That dumbass ain't never gonna be a College President. I told him "You coulda caught bigfoot just by putting a bunch of Unisom in a hamburger". Can you imagine how rich he'd be if he caught Bigfoot? Who doesn't carry a box of Unisom with them when they go camping? What a dumbass!

Oh, Two and half men is on now.


Your cousin sounds like a dumbass an a half. You coulda been bazillionaires. There's a lotta good eatin on a bigfoot. Cook em real slow and the meat like to fall right off the bone.
 
2013-01-20 10:25:25 PM  

Lsherm: Babwa Wawa: but we have a tendency to over-do many of the genres.

I am all for whatever reduces studying Melville or Dickens.  I read a quite a bit, but for the life of me I can't read anything by those two without feeling like I'm doing work.


Hardy's more fun than Dickens anyways, but apparently we don't do fun in school.
 
2013-01-20 10:26:25 PM  

SpaceBison: [i.qkme.me image 540x720]


I am so motherf**king sick of that motherf**king image.

No offense, SpaceBison, nothing personal against you at all.

I just hate that thing so gods damned much, no matter why it was created.
 
2013-01-20 10:27:09 PM  
War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength

It's all part of the plan
 
2013-01-20 10:29:32 PM  
 
2013-01-20 10:30:01 PM  

Kittypie070: SpaceBison: [i.qkme.me image 540x720]

I am so motherf**king sick of that motherf**king image.

No offense, SpaceBison, nothing personal against you at all.

I just hate that thing so gods damned much, no matter why it was created.


t2.gstatic.comView Full Size
 
2013-01-20 10:32:45 PM  

Kittypie070: SpaceBison: [i.qkme.me image 540x720]

I am so motherf**king sick of that motherf**king image.

No offense, SpaceBison, nothing personal against you at all.

I just hate that thing so gods damned much, no matter why it was created.


How about this one?
static.fjcdn.comView Full Size
 
2013-01-20 10:34:41 PM  

amquelbettamin: StoPPeRmobile: Ban guns!

Arghh beat me to it


You're upset you were beaten to a joke that's already been beaten to the ground? Raise your standards.
 
2013-01-20 10:34:45 PM  
There's only one thing that will help: ORANGE MOCHA FRAPPUCCINO!
 
2013-01-20 10:36:54 PM  

Kimothy: I'm almost at the point where I would pay my students to read.


Have you considered becoming a strict, even frightening, teacher? Fear is a great motivator.
 
2013-01-20 10:39:27 PM  
BTW, if you think you hate Mellville, give him one more chance and read "Typee". It is very short, and you'll know by the second chapter if you want to finish it. That book would make an awesome movie if made today, what with the nudity and cannibalism and all.


As far as the reading problem, I once worked on a public awareness program to teach new parents of any class and income level what they could do help their kids achieve better literacy. There are lots of cheap or free little things to do, one of the easiest is to just bring home a newspaper, even a free, days-old copy - and lead them thru the pictures of their choice, reading the captions out loud and discussing the story. Ads, too. Anything. The newspapers and mags can also help teach them to start paying attention to current events at a young age, so they are smart about what's going on in the world. Old magazines are good for this too. You can get the free or dirt cheap at yard sales, thrift stores, and the like. Having reading materials always present, whatever they are, is the important thing. Helping them make flash cards or signs for common household objects also gets the kids familiar with the shapes of words way before preschool. And that's how we learn to read: we learn by associating the shape of letters to sounds, and the shape of words to concepts. That's why you try to use mixed-case letters as much as you can; it makes decoding word shape easier.

Whenever we went to the grocery store, I would put my baby girl on my shoulders and have her read the price numbers out loud to me, then the names of the fruits and veggies and then other things too. We would point to the words and the actual things. Making a game out of killing time shopping made it fun for both of us. You should have seen the old lady in the produce aisle when my three-year-old points and shouts: "Daddy! The bananas are on sale for fifty-five cents a pound!" Then of course you work on numeracy, by slowly adding stuff to the bigass hanging produce scales and watching the numbers roll up.

Of course the number one tool is reading to your child every day, even if it's just from the paper, but reading them bedtime stories is pure gold for both of you. Don't be afraid you're not good enough, or doing it wrong. The kid wants your time most of all. All my kids were several grade levels ahead and able to read when they entered preschool, never mind kindergarten. I was reading Treasure Island and then Homer at age five.
 
2013-01-20 10:40:25 PM  
More than fifty percent of high school students don't read good well, and since we don't have a Derek Zoolander to build a center, we must change the reading standards instead of actually identifying and fixing the cause

FTFY
 
2013-01-20 10:41:17 PM  

GungFu: Crap at reading and spelling?

There's an excuse for that.

You can call it dyslexia. Happy now? You're not dumb as fark and don't try, you have dyslexia. It's not your fault. It's not your fault....

Is dyslexia just a myth?
Dyslexia: a big, expensive myth


My wife is dyslexic. She's really good at math, and a genius when it comes to chemistry. She barely studied for her exams in school and aced them.

But when she reads, the words and letters tend to jump around. Sometimes even whole lines will get mixed up. She has to double and triple check her work at her job to make sure that she doesn't misread numbers or words; because she usually does on the first read.
 
2013-01-20 10:42:50 PM  

EvilRacistNaziFascist: Phaeon: I feel that The Handmaids Tale is useful because it gets referenced a lot on FARK, especially when the article involves the GOP.

True enough: the idea of a Christian theocracy dominating the modern Western world is merely flattering leftist paranoia at a time when, among the religions, Christianity is in retreat and Islam is expanding its influence.


1) I teach the Handmaid's Tale. It is not about a Christian or Jewish theocracy. There is no discussion of Jesus or the Rabbinate in the sociopolitical structure in that novel. In fact the only mention of Christians are Baptists and Quakers and they are rebels fighting against that totalitarian system as reported on the warnews in that novel. It is a composite dystopia that explicitly includes Karl Marx as a "prophet." 2) Christianity is not on the decline. In fact its as vibrant in the Americas (North and South) as ever and is rapidly expanding all over Africa and in the developing world. Put down the political shocksite crap and actually read some scholarly literature on recent global trends in conversion. 3) And yes Islam too is expanding--yet few predominantly Muslim areas (usually rural ones) have anything resembling an Islamic 'theocracy.' The vast majority of the Islamic world is not like Saudi Arabia or the rural parts of Pakistan.
 
2013-01-20 10:43:04 PM  

Vectron: So to be honest, I don't think there is an education problem for white kids. The national numbers goes down as their percentage of the population goes down.


Why SIR you sound just like those racists who say that gun violence is not really a problem in the US because, if you subtracted the gun homicides committed by minorities, the firearms murder rate of white Americans would be comparable to that of European countries; and although those people are technically correct they must be failing to take into account.... ah, racism and... ah... er...
 
2013-01-20 10:43:08 PM  

Kimothy: I'm almost at the point where I would pay my students to read. They don't read anything except the Internet. When I assign books, articles, poems, or anything written, all I hear is how difficult it is to read the  whole thing.

I've tried everything, too. Graphic novels, traditional novels, young adult, performance poetry (YouTube has some great poetry slam performances), you name it. I'm constantly wracking my brain to find stuff my kids will actually read. It's extremely frustrating. And sadly, more often than not, parents will tell me their child doesn't have time/can't/won't/whatever read, rather than trying to get them to read.

Not to mention the opportunities to cheat because of the Internet.

But yeah, blame the teachers. We've changed SO much since I was in school - when people actually would read.

//Get off my lawn.


Weird.

If I'm around a bunch of books I haven't read, I will eventually pick them up and start reading them. It's completely inevitable. Back in college I think I read every novel in my friends' dorm rooms. But it's the same with everything from magazines to pamphlets. I've never sat staring at a wall in a doctor's office for more than five minutes, even if I hate their choice in magazines. Who would rather watch Trading Spaces?

\Of course now, with pocket computers, I can read what I want instead of Cosmo. Thank God.
 
2013-01-20 10:44:15 PM  

jst3p: It was my understanding that there would be no child left behind.


no child will be left behind. However, if we leave them all behind, we're really leaving children behind so it's all good. At least they'll have the company of other morons.
 
2013-01-20 10:44:52 PM  

Kimothy: I'm almost at the point where I would pay my students to read. They don't read anything except the Internet. When I assign books, articles, poems, or anything written, all I hear is how difficult it is to read the  whole thing.

I've tried everything, too. Graphic novels, traditional novels, young adult, performance poetry (YouTube has some great poetry slam performances), you name it. I'm constantly wracking my brain to find stuff my kids will actually read. It's extremely frustrating. And sadly, more often than not, parents will tell me their child doesn't have time/can't/won't/whatever read, rather than trying to get them to read.

Not to mention the opportunities to cheat because of the Internet.

But yeah, blame the teachers. We've changed SO much since I was in school - when people actually would read.

//Get off my lawn.


You'll like this.

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/275/transcript

1 hour audio, transcripts available. It's about how a school got their students to read.

/sorry it's not hyper linked, fark mobile won't let me.
 
2013-01-20 10:45:18 PM  

Vectron: It seems that adding more minorities to our country and expecting them to perform the same as white kids is causing problems.


Yes, racists often conveniently mistake a complex of economic class issues for ethnic ones. Schools with predominantly poor whites are not faring any better than poor blacks. See: Mississippi.
 
2013-01-20 10:45:19 PM  
But on a serious tip, my mother had us in a "book club" when we were kids (not sure how that worked, exactly, except we got books in the mail) and when we went to school, they had this dealio where we could buy books from some company and again, those books would be delivered to the school in a few weeks. This was the 1970s and '80s.

Don't get me wrong, we watched plenty of TV, but my mother didn't let us do nothing but watch TV. A lot of the time, we could choose to go outside and play or stay inside and entertain ourselves. Turns out, if you're bored enough and have nothing better to do than read, you'll read. I read the fark out of all kinds of books all through school (including high school). Most weren't non-fiction, but they weren't all crap, either. Sounds like a lot of kids today don't have parents who care enough about them to make them do something with their free time besides watch TV, update their Facebook page and text their friends.
 
2013-01-20 10:46:08 PM  
I turned 31 today and most of my friends don't read. Most people don't read. I do not think this is news from the past 3k years or so.
 
2013-01-20 10:46:13 PM  

EvilRacistNaziFascist: Vectron: So to be honest, I don't think there is an education problem for white kids. The national numbers goes down as their percentage of the population goes down.

Why SIR you sound just like those racists who say that gun violence is not really a problem in the US because, if you subtracted the gun homicides committed by minorities, the firearms murder rate of white Americans would be comparable to that of European countries; and although those people are technically correct they must be failing to take into account.... ah, racism and... ah... er...


Keep in mind there is a strong correlation between being a minority and being impoverished. Neither are race issues, they are both socio-economic issues.
 
2013-01-20 10:46:37 PM  
I blame the parents. When I was a kid, I got my ass whipped bloody if I brought home a B. It worked; I went to college on an academic scholarship, where I learned the proper use of the semi-colon.
 
2013-01-20 10:46:45 PM  

BravadoGT: Surely there must be a way we can blame this on guns.


No, but we CAN blame it on video games, if that helps.
 
2013-01-20 10:48:06 PM  
We've upped our standards. So, UP YOURS!
 
2013-01-20 10:49:45 PM  

DrPainMD: I blame the parents. When I was a kid, I got my ass whipped bloody if I brought home a B. It worked; I went to college on an academic scholarship, where I learned the proper use of the semi-colon.


Yeah, that's what we need. Bring back child abuse.

I don't hit my kids, and my daughter is ahead of grade level in several subjects and getting As. Sorry about your crappy parents.
 
2013-01-20 10:50:33 PM  
Hallelujah yes! Add more non-fiction to language arts. Kevin approves totally.
 
2013-01-20 10:51:03 PM  
upswingbabynames.comView Full Size


Pffft, why do the kids need to learn to read?
 
2013-01-20 10:51:04 PM  

skullkrusher: couldn't we keep the English classes focused on the fiction classics as always and get the history classes to rely more on primary source material?


Came here to say that.

History classes should include reading some history: some stuff by modern historians and some nonfiction written during the times being studied.

Science classes should also include reading some good popular science literature.
 
2013-01-20 10:51:48 PM  

Contribution Corsair: Similar to many sciences and mathematics we teach it but many people don't LEARN it because...why remember or retain that knowledge if it is never used except by a small fraction of them?


That's an ironic notion to express with a computer. To rescue the scientists and mathematicians from the future washroom attendants. Someone has to move society forward.
 
2013-01-20 10:52:55 PM  

IAmTheTagTeamChampions: I'd ask the assembled to weigh in on attempting to identify the problems and raise achievement rather than lower standards, but I feel that type of idea is utterly ridiculous.

/DNRTFA
//teacher
///disgusted


How is it that the problems have not already been identified? Almost every year there is a new study or "blue ribbon committee" established to look into education reform. And, really, what is there to discover? The reason our kids don't know anything is because they aren't being taught anything. When your curriculum is 30% how-to-use-a-condom, 30% look-how-evil-the-white-man-is and 40% the-government-can-solve-all-your-problems, it doesn't leave any time for the three Rs.
 
2013-01-20 10:53:34 PM  
I understand the problem, parents don't have time to read to their crotch fruit and so reading scores go down. Schools are trying a new curriculum, probably just as doomed as the modern math approach was in the 60s and 70s. Still if anything can get Salinger and Steinbeck out of the classroom, I am good with giving it the old college try. Those two were so depressing that I never wanted to read again. Many other authors wrote about sad and terrible things, but Salinger and Steinbeck made it seem like hope of any kind was pointless. Even decades later I don't find any value to their work.
 
2013-01-20 10:54:09 PM  

EvilRacistNaziFascist: Vectron: So to be honest, I don't think there is an education problem for white kids. The national numbers goes down as their percentage of the population goes down.

Why SIR you sound just like those racists who say that gun violence is not really a problem in the US because, if you subtracted the gun homicides committed by minorities, the firearms murder rate of white Americans would be comparable to that of European countries; and although those people are technically correct they must be failing to take into account.... ah, racism and... ah... er...



Facts are racist in our Orwellian PC USofA.
 
2013-01-20 10:54:22 PM  

red5ish: "So many kids, often as many as 50 percent, graduate high school ... demonstrably not ready for the demands of a first-year college course or job-training program," says David Coleman, president of the College Board, a nonprofit membership organization that administers standardized tests like the SAT.


"To graduate" is a verb, and it can be both transitive and intransitive. A transitive verb takes an object and an intransitive verb doesn't. The school may graduate students (transitive verb) but a student graduates from school (intransitive verb). I can't imagine how the president of the College Board could make this mistake; he sounds illiterate.

[imageshack.us image 400x225]


And, he probably says "jealous" when he means "envious."
 
2013-01-20 10:55:37 PM  

DrPainMD: IAmTheTagTeamChampions: I'd ask the assembled to weigh in on attempting to identify the problems and raise achievement rather than lower standards, but I feel that type of idea is utterly ridiculous.

/DNRTFA
//teacher
///disgusted

How is it that the problems have not already been identified? Almost every year there is a new study or "blue ribbon committee" established to look into education reform. And, really, what is there to discover? The reason our kids don't know anything is because they aren't being taught anything. When your curriculum is 30% how-to-use-a-condom, 30% look-how-evil-the-white-man-is and 40% the-government-can-solve-all-your-problems, it doesn't leave any time for the three Rs.


Aww damn it, I missed it in your last post. Perhaps it was more subtle or maybe it caught me off guard. But this one was over the top and you outed yourself.

Good day.
 
2013-01-20 10:56:26 PM  

Mentat: What's there to identify?  Read to your kids when they're young.


It is not just reading to them though. We did that, house overflowing with books. I blame too much homework which denies the child the joy of learning and leads to burnout, by 2nd grade in our case. My son uses audio books and dragon dictation because he is such a slow reader and writer.

He has been diagnosed with convergence insuffiency which we paid a fortune to "treat." It probably would have worked had we continued. What a racket!

I wonder about the over use of media on vision but I've never researched it.
 
2013-01-20 10:56:50 PM  

jst3p: EvilRacistNaziFascist: Vectron: So to be honest, I don't think there is an education problem for white kids. The national numbers goes down as their percentage of the population goes down.

Why SIR you sound just like those racists who say that gun violence is not really a problem in the US because, if you subtracted the gun homicides committed by minorities, the firearms murder rate of white Americans would be comparable to that of European countries; and although those people are technically correct they must be failing to take into account.... ah, racism and... ah... er...

Keep in mind there is a strong correlation between being a minority and being impoverished. Neither are race issues, they are both socio-economic issues.


Well, can't they start their own business with a a few million dollars loaned from their parents? Then they can be rich too.
 
2013-01-20 10:57:11 PM  
Read at home to your kids BEFORE they start school.

Problem solved.
 
2013-01-20 10:57:54 PM  

TwowheelinTim: Contribution Corsair: I have a theory

I have a suggestion for some light reading reading, speaking of education.


I was using the term in the sense of the second method of usage (as in speculation) or conjecture.

As I did not state it was a Theory of X and used it more in the term of a speculation or an unproven assumption my usage was still correct.  See  http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theory
Usage 2, 4, or 6.  You're directing more toward usage 5 I think.
 
2013-01-20 10:58:41 PM  

DrPainMD: IAmTheTagTeamChampions: I'd ask the assembled to weigh in on attempting to identify the problems and raise achievement rather than lower standards, but I feel that type of idea is utterly ridiculous.

/DNRTFA
//teacher
///disgusted

How is it that the problems have not already been identified? Almost every year there is a new study or "blue ribbon committee" established to look into education reform. And, really, what is there to discover? The reason our kids don't know anything is because they aren't being taught anything. When your curriculum is 30% how-to-use-a-condom, 30% look-how-evil-the-white-man-is and 40% the-government-can-solve-all-your-problems, it doesn't leave any time for the three Rs.


54 days out of 180 to learn how to use a condom? Really? Really? Each and every year? Really?
 
2013-01-20 10:58:51 PM  

limeyfellow: jst3p: EvilRacistNaziFascist: Vectron: So to be honest, I don't think there is an education problem for white kids. The national numbers goes down as their percentage of the population goes down.

Why SIR you sound just like those racists who say that gun violence is not really a problem in the US because, if you subtracted the gun homicides committed by minorities, the firearms murder rate of white Americans would be comparable to that of European countries; and although those people are technically correct they must be failing to take into account.... ah, racism and... ah... er...

Keep in mind there is a strong correlation between being a minority and being impoverished. Neither are race issues, they are both socio-economic issues.

Well, can't they start their own business with a a few million dollars loaned from their parents? Then they can be rich too.


Or just borrow money from their parents to go to college. Stupid non-whites.
 
2013-01-20 10:59:15 PM  
"The idea is that things like Lincoln's second inaugural address and Martin Luther King's letter from the Birmingham jail ... are worthy of close attention," he says. "Not just in a historical context, but also for the interweaving of thought and language."
...
"When they realized how relatively low they were, it was a real wakeup call for them," she says. "We understood at that point that we needed to start challenging the students more."
To get students to think deeper about a story, for example, Harper Lee's To Kill a Mockingbird, a novel with deceptively simple language, is paired with Malcolm Gladwell's New Yorker piece that alleges it is an elitist story.

"So the students find that there's a purpose in the reading that may not have been as apparent before," she says.


This isn't a bad idea. I'm not a big fan of non-fiction; it doesn't have the same benefits for a person as fiction does. If they're understanding more of what they read, even if it's less -- improvement?
 
2013-01-20 11:00:25 PM  

Kevin72: DrPainMD: IAmTheTagTeamChampions: I'd ask the assembled to weigh in on attempting to identify the problems and raise achievement rather than lower standards, but I feel that type of idea is utterly ridiculous.

/DNRTFA
//teacher
///disgusted

How is it that the problems have not already been identified? Almost every year there is a new study or "blue ribbon committee" established to look into education reform. And, really, what is there to discover? The reason our kids don't know anything is because they aren't being taught anything. When your curriculum is 30% how-to-use-a-condom, 30% look-how-evil-the-white-man-is and 40% the-government-can-solve-all-your-problems, it doesn't leave any time for the three Rs.

54 days out of 180 to learn how to use a condom? Really? Really? Each and every year? Really?


lh6.googleusercontent.comView Full Size
 
2013-01-20 11:01:46 PM  

IAmTheTagTeamChampions: IAmTheTagTeamChampions: doyner: IAmTheTagTeamChampions: /DNRTFA
//teacher

Just let this nugget sink in.

Just finished, relaized realized TFA was talking about standards as in Common Core, and realized my comment was not relevant (though I stand by it).

Head hung, snark deserved, etc. My bad.

I'm just gonna quit right here. I wonder why the quality of education is so bad...


Rarely is the question asked, "is our teachers learning?"
 
2013-01-20 11:02:27 PM  

Somacandra: 1) I teach the Handmaid's Tale. It is not about a Christian or Jewish theocracy.


It's about a Christian theocracy, my good man. To quote from Wikipedia (which -- however dubious a source it may be -- has never been accused of being too right- wing): "The Handmaid's Tale is set in the near future in the Republic of Gilead, a country formed within the borders of what was formerly the United States of America. It was founded by a racist, homophobic, Christian nativist, theocratic-organized military coup as an ideologically driven response to the pervasive ecological, physical and social degradation of the country."

Racist, sexist, homophobic... I almost hear a chant forming, don't you? "Hey hey, ho ho..."

"There is no discussion of Jesus or the Rabbinate in the sociopolitical structure in that novel."

By that standard, would you claim that a particular novel could not possibly be anti- Semitic if it contained no reference to the Pentateuch or the Talmud, even if its portrayal of Jews were offensive?

In fact the only mention of Christians are Baptists and Quakers and they are rebels fighting against that totalitarian system as reported on the warnews in that novel.

I do recall this from my reading of the book, and it is greatly to Atwood's credit that she included that reference to Christians who dared to dissent from the theocracy; but that in itself does not disprove that she -- in common with many left- of- centre thinkers in North America -- identified a theocratic dystopia in North America as being Christian in nature.
 
2013-01-20 11:02:52 PM  

Zarquon's Flat Tire: I turned 31 today and most of my friends don't read. Most people don't read. I do not think this is news from the past 3k years or so.


I'm 48 and many of my friends don't read. Very few of my friends read for pleasure, although more read for information. Guess what: Lots of people dislike reading. It's not something that you can "teach", I don't think. Either you enjoy it very much--and you're like me and have at least 400 books in your house at any one time--or you don't, and seldom buy any kind of book and rarely read any.

I guess you can teach people how to read, and how to spot themes in stories and how to research and whatnot; but you can't really teach kids to like to read. Either they do or they don't. This isn't some new phenomenon. We could be teaching kids how to research and study better, but we'll never teach them to like to read.
 
2013-01-20 11:02:55 PM  

meat0918: Read at home to your kids BEFORE they start school.

Problem solved.


This is the most important thing you can do for children. We also "killed our television" shortly after the second one was born and they thank us to this day. Give them time alone in the rooms to dream and play.

The one thing I can say to all parents is if you turned out all right so will your kids. A lot of it is genetic. They will grow out of most of their problems.

and whuppins. Lot and lots of whuppins!

cdn4.blogs.babble.comView Full Size
 
2013-01-20 11:03:00 PM  

Kevin72: DrPainMD: IAmTheTagTeamChampions: I'd ask the assembled to weigh in on attempting to identify the problems and raise achievement rather than lower standards, but I feel that type of idea is utterly ridiculous.

/DNRTFA
//teacher
///disgusted

How is it that the problems have not already been identified? Almost every year there is a new study or "blue ribbon committee" established to look into education reform. And, really, what is there to discover? The reason our kids don't know anything is because they aren't being taught anything. When your curriculum is 30% how-to-use-a-condom, 30% look-how-evil-the-white-man-is and 40% the-government-can-solve-all-your-problems, it doesn't leave any time for the three Rs.

54 days out of 180 to learn how to use a condom? Really? Really? Each and every year? Really?


Well, there's brand selection, all the different varieties (lubed, ribbed, flavored, etc.), and size. Whose alone generally take up the first grading period. When you get to putting them on is when shiat gets real.
 
2013-01-20 11:03:56 PM  

doyner: IAmTheTagTeamChampions: IAmTheTagTeamChampions: doyner: IAmTheTagTeamChampions: /DNRTFA
//teacher

Just let this nugget sink in.

Just finished, relaized realized TFA was talking about standards as in Common Core, and realized my comment was not relevant (though I stand by it).

Head hung, snark deserved, etc. My bad.

I'm just gonna quit right here. I wonder why the quality of education is so bad...

Rarely is the question asked, "is our teachers learning?"


I try to every day. Whether I'm successful is a whole different matter...
 
2013-01-20 11:05:08 PM  
This is actually a wonderful, wonderful decision. Things like Shakespeare and Paradise Lost are invaluable contributions to the literary canon and indispensable to those who want a full understanding of the evolution of the English language.

They're also farking worthless and possibly even detrimental to anyone who could not care less about the literary canon or English language. Most high school graduates are never going to read another serious novel again once they leave. They're going to read, at best, op-eds on news websites and maybe the occasional essay. They'll be hearing speeches and structuring arguments in presentations at work. They need to understand how rhetoric works, in addition to being able to pick out useful information from droll informational texts such as instruction manuals. The ones that do read the occasional novel will be reading popular garbage like 50 Shades of Grey and Twilight, things that go so far beyond the realm of intellectualism that to examine them using the same analytic methods that are used to scrutinize classic works of literature is insulting to anyone who has ever hoped to have their writing taken seriously.

So why do we teach them these things? Why do we hand kids, who no longer have the time or attention span to watch a farking movie that's longer than three hours, books written in dusty 18th century English with 300 pages and a plot they can't connect with? They can't be assed to read it and we know it, that's why we end up teaching and testing them about the plot instead of having them learn and discuss how an author achieves his desired goal through effective use of language, something that is an actual critical thinking skill that they'll be using in real life.

Meanwhile, if you hand them a different two page essay from the New York Times or some magazine every couple days and ask them what words the author uses to get his point across, the students will actually read them and even try to answer your question because it's not a frustrating, time-consuming biatch to do so. On top of that, you get to cover more ground, catering to the interests of your actual students instead of ancient English professors who make their living training other people to become the same as them.
 
2013-01-20 11:06:10 PM  

jst3p: EvilRacistNaziFascist: Vectron: So to be honest, I don't think there is an education problem for white kids. The national numbers goes down as their percentage of the population goes down.

Why SIR you sound just like those racists who say that gun violence is not really a problem in the US because, if you subtracted the gun homicides committed by minorities, the firearms murder rate of white Americans would be comparable to that of European countries; and although those people are technically correct they must be failing to take into account.... ah, racism and... ah... er...

Keep in mind there is a strong correlation between being a minority and being impoverished. Neither are race issues, they are both socio-economic issues.



Keep in mind there is a strong correlation between low IQ / thuggery and poverty.
You cling to your beliefs, I will cling to mine.
 
2013-01-20 11:06:36 PM  

Somacandra: Yes, racists often conveniently mistake a complex of economic class issues for ethnic ones. Schools with predominantly poor whites are not faring any better than poor blacks. See: Mississippi.


Since you apparently have all the statistics close at hand, could you please post the academic test scores of white students in Mississippi alongside those of their black counterparts? Thanks.
 
2013-01-20 11:07:08 PM  

Scythed: This is actually a wonderful, wonderful decision. Things like Shakespeare and Paradise Lost are invaluable contributions to the literary canon and indispensable to those who want a full understanding of the evolution of the English language.

They're also farking worthless and possibly even detrimental to anyone who could not care less about the literary canon or English language. Most high school graduates are never going to read another serious novel again once they leave. They're going to read, at best, op-eds on news websites and maybe the occasional essay. They'll be hearing speeches and structuring arguments in presentations at work. They need to understand how rhetoric works, in addition to being able to pick out useful information from droll informational texts such as instruction manuals. The ones that do read the occasional novel will be reading popular garbage like 50 Shades of Grey and Twilight, things that go so far beyond the realm of intellectualism that to examine them using the same analytic methods that are used to scrutinize classic works of literature is insulting to anyone who has ever hoped to have their writing taken seriously.

So why do we teach them these things? Why do we hand kids, who no longer have the time or attention span to watch a farking movie that's longer than three hours, books written in dusty 18th century English with 300 pages and a plot they can't connect with? They can't be assed to read it and we know it, that's why we end up teaching and testing them about the plot instead of having them learn and discuss how an author achieves his desired goal through effective use of language, something that is an actual critical thinking skill that they'll be using in real life.

Meanwhile, if you hand them a different two page essay from the New York Times or some magazine every couple days and ask them what words the author uses to get his point across, the students will actually read them and even try to answer your question becaus ...


tl;dr
you have a Cliff's Notes version of that post?
 
2013-01-20 11:09:26 PM  

Babwa Wawa:

I'm not sure what Common Core is, but a 70/30 mix of non-fiction to fiction is not a terrible thing, in my opinion.  The ability to digest complex written ideas is of primary importance.


But not Foucault or Nietzsche: the former is over-rated, the latter willfully obscure.
 
2013-01-20 11:09:30 PM  

mgshamster: Kimothy: I'm almost at the point where I would pay my students to read. They don't read anything except the Internet. When I assign books, articles, poems, or anything written, all I hear is how difficult it is to read the  whole thing.

I've tried everything, too. Graphic novels, traditional novels, young adult, performance poetry (YouTube has some great poetry slam performances), you name it. I'm constantly wracking my brain to find stuff my kids will actually read. It's extremely frustrating. And sadly, more often than not, parents will tell me their child doesn't have time/can't/won't/whatever read, rather than trying to get them to read.

Not to mention the opportunities to cheat because of the Internet.

But yeah, blame the teachers. We've changed SO much since I was in school - when people actually would read.

//Get off my lawn.

You'll like this.

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/275/transcript

1 hour audio, transcripts available. It's about how a school got their students to read.

/sorry it's not hyper linked, fark mobile won't let me.


Thanks for the link, that was a good read. I used to work in a classroom and brought my own books in from home for kids to borrow whenever they wanted. I had over 1000 books in that classroom and the kids read all the time. 

Now I work at a hybrid online/face to face school, and every classroom has computers instead of books (with the exception of mine - but I don't have room for the 1000 I used to have in class). Now I try to find as many online copies of books that I can - most of the stuff that is out of copyright is available for free online. Most of my students never read for pleasure. I can identify the ones that do with the first writing assignment. Good readers make good writers.

red5ish: Kimothy: I'm almost at the point where I would pay my students to read.

Have you considered becoming a strict, even frightening, teacher? Fear is a great motivator.


My students have a healthy respect for me, but I don't think I'd classify myself as frightening. I just don't take any crap. One of the best compliments I ever got was when one student told another student "You tried to LIE to Dr. Kimothy? Are you serious?" The other kids were nodding in agreement, so they must take me pretty seriously.

They know I love them, though. That counts for a lot.
 
2013-01-20 11:11:17 PM  
Excellent. The planned meritocracy proceeds apace.
 
2013-01-20 11:11:37 PM  
But can they turn left?
 
2013-01-20 11:12:09 PM  

Vectron: jst3p: EvilRacistNaziFascist: Vectron: So to be honest, I don't think there is an education problem for white kids. The national numbers goes down as their percentage of the population goes down.

Why SIR you sound just like those racists who say that gun violence is not really a problem in the US because, if you subtracted the gun homicides committed by minorities, the firearms murder rate of white Americans would be comparable to that of European countries; and although those people are technically correct they must be failing to take into account.... ah, racism and... ah... er...

Keep in mind there is a strong correlation between being a minority and being impoverished. Neither are race issues, they are both socio-economic issues.


Keep in mind there is a strong correlation between low IQ / thuggery and poverty.
You cling to your beliefs, I will cling to mine.


Pssst... this guy is talking about you:

...Given these two facts, it seems natural to many people to conclude that the genetic factors that distinguish disadvantaged groups also cause them to score lower on IQ tests. While such an inferential leap may seem reasonable to many (particularly those lacking in education)...

Link
 
2013-01-20 11:12:11 PM  
I just want it known, for the record, that I read Catcher in the Rye and it sucked. It was not in any way a life-changing or enlightening experience for me, and I felt robbed of my time once I was done with it. Perhaps that is because I am neither male nor from a wealthy family, and so did not identify with the main character at all.

That said, I am more hopeful about the inclusion of more non-fiction reading in the elementary grades, and not so concerned with high-school material. In high school, the balance tips more to non-fiction anyway, because it shows up in the science and social studies courses that can no longer be avoided or set aside for language arts and math instruction. I don't see literature disappearing from the high school scene.

From my experience (as an upper-elementary teacher), non-fiction is nearly non-existent in the primary grades because science and social studies usually get only minimal coverage, and because fiction is so much easier to teach. Kids love stories, and understand their structure; they can read them, comprehend them, and write their own. Which brings me to my next reason I approve of the new standards...

Kids currently have great difficulty WRITING non-fiction, including articles, summaries, reports, analyses, and so on, because they don't understand them. They don't know their structure, having not been exposed to them in any great way. The hardest thing I have to do as a teacher in writing is to get them to STOP TELLING ME A STORY. Sometimes you just need to communicate information. There is no setting, there are no characters, there is just data and results.
 
2013-01-20 11:13:15 PM  

jst3p: Keep in mind there is a strong correlation between being a minority and being impoverished.


Even if that were true, there isn't at the same time a strong correlation between being impoverished and being violent... there is abundant empirical evidence to suggest that, for genetic reasons, the descendants of African populations throughout the Western world are more likely to engage in violent crime than their non- black counterparts.
 
2013-01-20 11:13:18 PM  
Reminds me of Comiskey Stadium. The White Sox were having a lot of problems packing in the fans to their new stadium. So, to fix the problem they reduced the number of seats (47,098 to 40,615 seats in 2004). Now, they are filling a higher percentage of their seats!
 
2013-01-20 11:14:30 PM  

jst3p: Kittypie070: SpaceBison: [i.qkme.me image 540x720]

I am so motherf**king sick of that motherf**king image.

No offense, SpaceBison, nothing personal against you at all.

I just hate that thing so gods damned much, no matter why it was created.

How about this one?
[static.fjcdn.com image 251x251]


[puts on soccer cleats and leaps relentlessly on your piano keys all night]
 
2013-01-20 11:14:48 PM  

red5ish: fnordfocus: red5ish: "To graduate" is a verb, and it can be both transitive and intransitive. A transitive verb takes an object and an intransitive verb doesn't. The school may graduate students (transitive verb) but a student graduates from school (intransitive verb). I can't imagine how the president of the College Board could make this mistake; he sounds illiterate.

It's idiomatic, biatch!

It's grammatically incorrect, biatch.
[imageshack.us image 180x180]
We are not Nazis, but when we speak, you listen.


Ugh. I hate grammer nazi's. Their the most annoying of the internet no it all's.
 
2013-01-20 11:16:23 PM  
But dey allreddy noes teh deferens betweeeen write and raung spelling.
 
2013-01-20 11:17:39 PM  
Kevin72:54 days out of 180 to learn how to use a condom? Really? Really? Each and every year? Really?

Well, that part must be working. I heard that teen pregnancy rates are declining.

http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2012/02/09/fewer-teens-getting-pregnant - having-abortions-study-shows/

/I know, not helping
 
2013-01-20 11:17:55 PM  

Kittypie070: SpaceBison: [i.qkme.me image 540x720]

I am so motherf**king sick of that motherf**king image.

No offense, SpaceBison, nothing personal against you at all.

I just hate that thing so gods damned much, no matter why it was created.


Next time do not put your image out on the internet, then no one will use it in a stupid meme!

:-D
 
2013-01-20 11:19:50 PM  

EvilRacistNaziFascist: Somacandra: Yes, racists often conveniently mistake a complex of economic class issues for ethnic ones. Schools with predominantly poor whites are not faring any better than poor blacks. See: Mississippi.

Since you apparently have all the statistics close at hand, could you please post the academic test scores of white students in Mississippi alongside those of their black counterparts? Thanks.


65% of white 3rd graders reading a grade level.
42% for blacks

You have to factor in since No Child Left Behind began, many majority black districts have been cheating. Atlanta, Newark and Philadelphia that we know of. So that 42% figure may be inflated.
 
2013-01-20 11:21:23 PM  

red5ish: "So many kids, often as many as 50 percent, graduate high school ... demonstrably not ready for the demands of a first-year college course or job-training program," says David Coleman, president of the College Board, a nonprofit membership organization that administers standardized tests like the SAT.


"To graduate" is a verb, and it can be both transitive and intransitive. A transitive verb takes an object and an intransitive verb doesn't. The school may graduate students (transitive verb) but a student graduates from school (intransitive verb). I can't imagine how the president of the College Board could make this mistake; he sounds illiterate.

[imageshack.us image 400x225]


My high school graduated a cylinder once. Our science teacher told us about it.
 
2013-01-20 11:23:05 PM  

EvilRacistNaziFascist: jst3p: Keep in mind there is a strong correlation between being a minority and being impoverished.

Even if that were true, there isn't at the same time a strong correlation between being impoverished and being violent... there is abundant empirical evidence to suggest that, for genetic reasons, the descendants of African populations throughout the Western world are more likely to engage in violent crime than their non- black counterparts.


Even if that were true it has nothing to do with the subject we are discussing. Try and keep up dear, we are talking about academic achievement.
 
2013-01-20 11:23:50 PM  

Monkeyfark Ridiculous: red5ish: "So many kids, often as many as 50 percent, graduate high school ... demonstrably not ready for the demands of a first-year college course or job-training program," says David Coleman, president of the College Board, a nonprofit membership organization that administers standardized tests like the SAT.


"To graduate" is a verb, and it can be both transitive and intransitive. A transitive verb takes an object and an intransitive verb doesn't. The school may graduate students (transitive verb) but a student graduates from school (intransitive verb). I can't imagine how the president of the College Board could make this mistake; he sounds illiterate.

[imageshack.us image 400x225]

My high school graduated a cylinder once. Our science teacher told us about it.


this made me laugh. out loud.
 
2013-01-20 11:24:01 PM  
Summer Glau's Love Slave:
This thread makes me wish I were illiterate.
I were illiterate.
I were.
 
2013-01-20 11:28:04 PM  
Make reasonable accommodations for the fact that at least half of kids should have a football helmet and a dribble cup, strictly academically-speaking?
 
2013-01-20 11:29:13 PM  
 
2013-01-20 11:29:19 PM  

BravadoGT: Surely there must be a way we can blame this on guns.


StoPPeRmobile: Ban guns!


What's the point? As these two posts prove, literacy doesn't cure abject stupidity.
 
2013-01-20 11:34:25 PM  

Gurlugon: Make reasonable accommodations for the fact that at least half of kids should have a football helmet and a dribble cup, strictly academically-speaking?


But that's racist too.

Even in the most liberal city in American a Disproportionate Representation of African American Students in Special Education
 
2013-01-20 11:35:28 PM  

Gyrfalcon: Zarquon's Flat Tire: I turned 31 today and most of my friends don't read. Most people don't read. I do not think this is news from the past 3k years or so.

I'm 48 and many of my friends don't read. Very few of my friends read for pleasure, although more read for information. Guess what: Lots of people dislike reading. It's not something that you can "teach", I don't think. Either you enjoy it very much--and you're like me and have at least 400 books in your house at any one time--or you don't, and seldom buy any kind of book and rarely read any.

I guess you can teach people how to read, and how to spot themes in stories and how to research and whatnot; but you can't really teach kids to like to read. Either they do or they don't. This isn't some new phenomenon. We could be teaching kids how to research and study better, but we'll never teach them to like to read.

 
2013-01-20 11:38:28 PM  
Take away a kids toys and electronics, restrict them to their room for reasonable amounts of time with access to some good books, and they will learn to like it.

Staring at the wall gets old.
 
2013-01-20 11:40:44 PM  

Karma Curmudgeon: Summer Glau's Love Slave:
This thread makes me wish I were illiterate.
I were illiterate.
I were.


There's this thing called the subjunctive mood. Look it up.

/And try reading a book, while you're at it.
 
2013-01-20 11:40:53 PM  

Gyrfalcon: Zarquon's Flat Tire: I turned 31 today and most of my friends don't read. Most people don't read. I do not think this is news from the past 3k years or so.

I'm 48 and many of my friends don't read. Very few of my friends read for pleasure, although more read for information. Guess what: Lots of people dislike reading. It's not something that you can "teach", I don't think. Either you enjoy it very much--and you're like me and have at least 400 books in your house at any one time--or you don't, and seldom buy any kind of book and rarely read any.

I guess you can teach people how to read, and how to spot themes in stories and how to research and whatnot; but you can't really teach kids to like to read. Either they do or they don't. This isn't some new phenomenon. We could be teaching kids how to research and study better, but we'll never teach them to like to read.



This school did: Link
 
2013-01-20 11:44:24 PM  

Vectron: Gurlugon: Make reasonable accommodations for the fact that at least half of kids should have a football helmet and a dribble cup, strictly academically-speaking?

But that's racist too.

Even in the most liberal city in American a Disproportionate Representation of African American Students in Special Education


Maybe if they didn't say "yo mayne, readin' is fo' whitie" and instead followed their somewhat paler brethren in saying "the only three letters I need'a learn is U, S, and A," they wouldn't be stuck in the back of the short bus.
 
2013-01-20 11:44:57 PM  

Babwa Wawa: Am I the only one who finds it ironic that subby couldn't comprehend the contents of the article?   Nobody's changed the standards - in point of fact that's the central tenet of the article.  Reading scores have dropped, and so there is a new curriculum designed to raise them.

What I suspect is happening with reading scores is that it's easier than ever to skip the major works by scoping the Internet for the basic plot and some nuggets to make the teacher think the book has been read.  It's much harder to do that with non-fiction works, critical essays and things of the sort.

I'm not sure what Common Core is, but a 70/30 mix of non-fiction to fiction is not a terrible thing, in my opinion.  The ability to digest complex written ideas is of primary importance.  I love literature, and believe that critical genres and authors should be introduced universally by the end of high school, but we have a tendency to over-do many of the genres.  I'm also doubtful of its necessity for reading comprehension. For example reading Shakespeare is important, but more than one or two of his works is unnecessary.   High school lit should be like tapas.  Small servings of a wide variety of genres.


The standard is 70/30 across the curriculum. Hopefully the written information presented in every course that is not a language course is overwhelmingly factual, which allows language courses to emphasize fiction. Within language courses, grammar and tips on composition should also be factual, leaving even more room for great and/or relevant literature.
 
2013-01-20 11:52:13 PM  

Kimothy: They know I love them, though. That counts for a lot.


Here is a Link for you. Good luck and best wishes.
 
2013-01-20 11:53:22 PM  

JasonOfOrillia: Lsherm: Babwa Wawa: but we have a tendency to over-do many of the genres.

I am all for whatever reduces studying Melville or Dickens.  I read a quite a bit, but for the life of me I can't read anything by those two without feeling like I'm doing work.

These guys wrote in the days when authors were paid by the word.


The worst offender by far was William Make-shiat up as you go along-peace Thackery. Vanity Fair was obnoxiously overwritten.
 
2013-01-21 12:06:31 AM  
FTA: "I worry that we are going to find that teachers will teach shorter works, they will spend less time on those classics and they'll tend to orient them more toward topical, relevant concerns,"

That's supposed to be a worry? That students will end up reading things which are topical or relevant? You can't motivate kids to read by assigning Chaucer. You can't even do it anymore by assigning  Catcher in the Rye. No sixteen year old is going to care about Tom Sawyer whitewashing fences or about Holden Caulfiled whining about phonies at his goddamn prep school. If the purpose is to teach them to read, then use material that they might actually be interested in. If the purpose is to motivate an interest in the classics, then show why the classics matter. Assign fiction or non-fiction which they actually might have heard of and can be related to themes in classic literature, or which reference it or was influenced by it. Christ, move from Harry Potter to Tolkien to Beowulf. Virtually no high school student is going to be interested in Dostoevsky without some explanation as to why they ought to care.

He wonders if students who are curious aboutThe Sound and the Fury orThe Brothers Karamazov, for instance, would have a place in this new standard.

*Facepalm*
 
2013-01-21 12:07:31 AM  

Karma Curmudgeon: Summer Glau's Love Slave:
This thread makes me wish I were illiterate.
I were illiterate.
I were.


This is the correct usage of the word. Link
 
2013-01-21 12:10:51 AM  
Wow, is Stormfront down or something? When did this thread turn into a dumping ground of racism?
 
2013-01-21 12:11:01 AM  

James F. Campbell: Karma Curmudgeon: Summer Glau's Love Slave:
This thread makes me wish I were illiterate.
I were illiterate.
I were.

There's this thing called the subjunctive mood. Look it up.

/And try reading a book, while you're at it.


Oooooo, failed and burned!
 
2013-01-21 12:16:06 AM  

jso2897: BravadoGT: Surely there must be a way we can blame this on guns.

StoPPeRmobile: Ban guns!

What's the point? As these two posts prove, literacy doesn't cure abject stupidity.


But it does cure object stupidity.

I started reading on my phone and now it's a smart phone.
 
2013-01-21 12:18:53 AM  
1. Karma Curmudgeon got pwned. I give a twenty percent chance he claims rotsky.

2. For many students high school is too late to get excited about books. If one gets far enough behind then reading becomes a chore and that detracts from any reward of the literature. There really ought to be more remedial classes in high school to be honest. It isn't optimal to graduate kids with a lesser grasp of a subject but making a kid get a C with extra credit bullshiat is doing them no favors.

3. One would think parents would have enough interest in their children's success to keep them up to speed or ahead when it comes to reading.
 
2013-01-21 12:20:24 AM  
The fark filter is gonna love this:

Read a book! Read a book! Read a muh'farkin book!
Read a book! Read a book! Read a muh'farkin book!
Read a book! Read a book! Read a muh'farkin book!
Read a book! Read a book! Read a muh'farkin book!

R-E-A-D, A, B-O-OAHH-KAYYYYYYYY~!
R-E-A-D, A, B-O-OAHH-KAYYYYYYYY~!
R-E-A-D, A, B-O-OAHH-KAYYYYYYYY~!
R-E-A-D, A, B-O-OAHH-KAYYYYYYYY~!

Not a sports page (what) not a magazine (who)
But a book nubian, a farkin book nubian (YEAHHH~!)
Not a sports page (what) not a magazine (who)
But a book nubian, a farkin book nubian (YEAHHH~!)
Not a sports page, not a magazine
But a book nubian, check this out

More lyrics: http://www.lyricsmania.com/read_a_book_lyrics_bomani_dmite_armah.html
All about Bomani Dmite+Armah: http://www.musictory.com/music/Bomani+Dmite+Armah
 
2013-01-21 12:20:44 AM  
lowered standards? I see "Financial Expediency"

*sigh*
 
2013-01-21 12:24:58 AM  

enry: My daughter is 10 and her mother still reads to her every night. They went to B&N today to get books and I'm constantly getting notices from the library about her soon-to-be-overdue books.

/yeah yeah, first world problems


I read to my 12 year old daughter and my eight year old son every night and will continue to do so until they move out or beg me to stop. For now they still love it and look forward to it. When their friends sleep over we read anyway and they join in. All but one have really enjoyed it.

Be expressive, do voices when possible. People love to be read to. My wife listens in at times.

////Don't try to grammar nazi me on the second to last sentence.
 
2013-01-21 12:28:08 AM  

stiletto_the_wise: Wow, is Stormfront down or something? When did this thread turn into a dumping ground of racism?


Yeah I was wondering if Sunday night is "don't be ashamed to be a racist!" night now.
 
2013-01-21 12:28:09 AM  
The article is an excellent example of a failed system failing to correct itself, and while outlining the problem, the article offers no effective solution. This is why you should home school, if you care about your kids and their education. Because nobody knows your kids like you do, and (gasp) nobody cares about them like you do. And the professionals can't do the job as well as you can.
 
2013-01-21 12:28:16 AM  
i1125.photobucket.comView Full Size

 
2013-01-21 12:29:12 AM  

notatrollorami: enry: My daughter is 10 and her mother still reads to her every night. They went to B&N today to get books and I'm constantly getting notices from the library about her soon-to-be-overdue books.

/yeah yeah, first world problems

I read to my 12 year old daughter and my eight year old son every night and will continue to do so until they move out or beg me to stop. For now they still love it and look forward to it. When their friends sleep over we read anyway and they join in. All but one have really enjoyed it.

Be expressive, do voices when possible. People love to be read to. My wife listens in at times.

////Don't try to grammar nazi me on the second to last sentence.


What level of books do you read to them? I know that by the 4th grade my friends and I were reading adult Fiction. Crichton, King, Hemingway, Steinbeck, etc. Granted, (at least I) totally missed the point of some of the Hemingway and Steinbeck until I went back and re-read much later, but these don't strike me as the sort of stuff that you could expect to finish in a reasonable amount of time. At that age don't they benefit more by reading the books themselves?
 
2013-01-21 12:29:14 AM  

Smackledorfer: 1. Karma Curmudgeon got pwned. I give a twenty percent chance he claims rotsky.


2:1 he doesn't post again and pretends he isn't reading this thread anymore.
 
2013-01-21 12:29:28 AM  

Scythed: This is actually a wonderful, wonderful decision. Things like Shakespeare and Paradise Lost are invaluable contributions to the literary canon and indispensable to those who want a full understanding of the evolution of the English language.

They're also farking worthless and possibly even detrimental to anyone who could not care less about the literary canon or English language.


I know, right? It's not as though important works of literature ever explored complex questions about morality or the human experience that are important for all people, regardless of their day job, right?

Oh wait:

Macbeth makes us wonder about free will and the nature of guilt.

Julius Caesar forces us to ponder choosing between friendship and justice.

Much Ado About Nothing and The Taming of the Shrew aptly demonstrate any number of ways that women get unfairly treated while exploring complicated mechanics of love, courtship, and gendered expectations.

Heck, Henry V (IV,i,1975) even raises and debates the question of the Nuremberg defense a couple of centuries before the Nazis even existed:

"For we know enough, if we know we are the kings subjects: if his cause be wrong, our obedience to the king wipes the crime of it out of us. " [There's a good bit more to the scene where this claim is debated].

And Hamlet... well, that's a whole *thing* in itself.

And that's just a sampling of Shakespeare. There's also Twain, Dickens, Homer, Virgil, Dante, Buck, etc. There is, in short, the entire gorram history of mankind's attempts to figure out what exactly it means to be human, with all of the weird and confusing variations and intricacies involved.

So why do we teach them these things? Why do we hand kids, who no longer have the time or attention span to watch a farking movie that's longer than three hours, books written in dusty 18th century English with 300 pages and a plot they can't connect with? They can't be assessed to read it and we know it, that's why we end up teaching and testing them about the plot instead of having them learn and discuss how an author achieves his desired goal through effective use of language, something that is an actual critical thinking skill that they'll be using in real life.

Meanwhile, if you hand them a different two page essay from the New York Times or some magazine every couple days and ask them what words the author uses to get his point across, the students will actually read them and even try to answer your question because it's not a frustrating, time-consuming biatch to do so. On top of that, you get to cover more ground, catering to the interests of your actual students instead of ancient English professors who make their living training other people to become the same as them.


So your solution to "kids have a short attention span" is "let's accommodate that lazy habit" instead of "let's teach them how to focus?" If that were our entire approach to the education of children, nobody would ever learn to read/write/do math in the first place, because when they start it's difficult, and god forbid we should teach our children to work hard to develop a skill, right?

And I call BS on your claim of "they can't connect" to the plots of this stuff... for a number of reasons. That's just the excuse lazy teens use when they don't want to have to do the hard work of sitting down with the same task for more than 30 minutes... particularly if that task forces them to use "muscles" that they don't exercise often.

And why should we care what interests them? I wasn't especially interested in learning how to make a budget, but it turned out to be pretty important, didn't it? The US Tax Code is anything but a "2-page NY Times article" and a GREAT deal more complex. If you're suggesting that teens can't be bothered to read anything longer than 1000 words, we're all screwed once these kids start running the place.

I'm arguing on the internet, so I'm going to stop myself here and leave you with a gem from Flannery O'Connor (a well-regarded author herself) on the subject of teaching literature:

"In other ages the attention of children was held by Homer and Virgil, among others, but by the reverse evolutionary process, that is no longer possible; our children are too stupid now to enter the past imaginatively. No one asks the student if algebra pleases him or if he finds it satisfactory that some French verbs are irregular, but if he prefers Hersey to Hawthorne, his taste must prevail... And if the student finds that this is not to his taste? Well, that is regrettable. Most regrettable. His taste should not be consulted; it is being formed. "
 
2013-01-21 12:31:26 AM  

notatrollorami: enry: My daughter is 10 and her mother still reads to her every night. They went to B&N today to get books and I'm constantly getting notices from the library about her soon-to-be-overdue books.

/yeah yeah, first world problems

I read to my 12 year old daughter and my eight year old son every night and will continue to do so until they move out or beg me to stop. For now they still love it and look forward to it. When their friends sleep over we read anyway and they join in. All but one have really enjoyed it.

Be expressive, do voices when possible. People love to be read to. My wife listens in at times.

////Don't try to grammar nazi me on the second to last sentence.


Is it OK if we grammar nazi you for using a comma when a period or semi-colon should have been used?
 
2013-01-21 12:31:38 AM  
They should be reading non-fiction as well as fiction. All high school students should read some of Gore Vidal's essays, for example.
 
2013-01-21 12:31:48 AM  

Babwa Wawa: Am I the only one who finds it ironic that subby couldn't comprehend the contents of the article? Nobody's changed the standards - in point of fact that's the central tenet of the article. Reading scores have dropped, and so there is a new curriculum designed to raise them.


Wait, you mean we're supposed to read the article about reading?
 
2013-01-21 12:35:21 AM  

Summer Glau's Love Slave: [i1125.photobucket.com image 251x251]


I hope no one gets a seizure looking at that.
 
2013-01-21 12:40:18 AM  

The One True TheDavid: Babwa Wawa:

I'm not sure what Common Core is, but a 70/30 mix of non-fiction to fiction is not a terrible thing, in my opinion.  The ability to digest complex written ideas is of primary importance.

But not Foucault or Nietzsche: the former is over-rated, the latter willfully obscure.


Except the other way around.
 
2013-01-21 12:43:39 AM  

CruiserTwelve: More than fifty percent of high school students don't read good

They apparently don't write well either.


My first thoughts,also.
 
2013-01-21 12:44:10 AM  
No, miss teacher! Our child is not illiterate. We were married three months before he was born.
 
2013-01-21 12:45:40 AM  

Bucky Katt: They should be reading non-fiction as well as fiction. All high school students should read some of Gore Vidal's essays, for example.


A couple of years ago my coworker's high school-aged daughter told me she thought Gore Vidal was a hair stylist.
 
2013-01-21 12:47:11 AM  

gregscott: The article is an excellent example of a failed system failing to correct itself, and while outlining the problem, the article offers no effective solution. This is why you should home school, if you care about your kids and their education. Because nobody knows your kids like you do, and (gasp) nobody cares about them like you do. And the professionals can't do the job as well as you can.


I would believe in homeschooling as the solution if I believed even 1% of the population of parents is qualified and relied upon to teach up to high school level in ALL of the following subjects:

* Grammar & Spelling
* Literature
* US History
* World History
* Biology
* Chemistry
* Physics
* Algebra
* Geometry
* Trigonometry
* Calculus

In other words, there's no way in hell homeschooling in general* can replace education by professional educators.

I think the only thing homeschooling can be shown to be effective in teaching is that Jesus rode on dinosaurs and that the earth is 6000 years old.

*I'm sure YOUR parents are the 1% that can effectively teach in all of the above subjects.
 
2013-01-21 12:49:44 AM  

lamecomedian: Flannery O'Connor


I was with you until you mentioned her. She's not interested in what it means to be human; she's interested in brow-beating anyone who isn't Catholic.
 
2013-01-21 12:51:40 AM  

netcentric: Yeah.....we're gonna need more taxes.


The U.S. spends more than any other nation on education.
Each year, the United States shells out billions of dollars on education. In 2010, the total annual spending on education was more than $809 billion dollars. That's more than any other industrialized nation, and more than the spending of France, Germany, Japan, Brazil, the U. K., Canada, and Australia combined. The difference is substantial when you look at annual spending per child as well. In the U.S., the average student costs the government about $7,743. The next highest nation is the United Kingdom, with $5,834 per student, a difference of almost $2,000 a year per student. So what do top performing nations like Finland and South Korea spend? Just $5,653 and $3,759 per student, respectively.

Link

D.C. public schools are spending more per student than any state in the nation, writing an $18,667 check for each child, to oust New York as the top spender, yet rank at the bottom in results.

Link
 
2013-01-21 12:55:03 AM  
So pay teachers more? That will surely improve the kids education.
Maybe go on strike until you get a 20% increase (in salary, not percentage of kids who can read better) over 4 years.
 
2013-01-21 12:56:52 AM  
We have seen the enemy...

And it wants more money.


/That'll fix 'er up
 
2013-01-21 12:57:36 AM  
Access to books, access to books, and access to books again - books they choose themselves and own so that they can return to them and practice. Books they enjoy reading - Pokemon, Captain Underpants, the classics, comics, whatever.

I have spent a good, good chunk of my professional life on this, working with thousands of teachers and probably 30K+ children in very high poverty neighborhoods. They have no books in their homes and their schools lack the resources to give them significant access. When they have the chance to choose their own books and build their own home libraries along with the rest of their classmates, they discover they love reading. Library circulation goes up. Scores go up. They invent the concept of book clubs with their classmates. They read more, get better at it, develop their curiosities and figure out for themselves why education is meaningful. The literacy culture in homes and schools changes. It is incredible to watch.

It is a game changer, and screw NCLB & the ridiculous depth of standardized testing that now goes on. I'm all for accountability and I don't think anyone was ever harmed by Iowa Basic Skills and such - but you're grinding teachers and their students into the ground with this crap, and one big part of the fix is readily available and incredibly cheap. Books. That they choose. Let them free read, and good things will follow.

Hi, fark - this is one of my few soapboxes. If anyone's truly interested, send me a line - I've got research out the wazoo.
 
2013-01-21 12:58:02 AM  

RCon: The One True TheDavid: Babwa Wawa:

I'm not sure what Common Core is, but a 70/30 mix of non-fiction to fiction is not a terrible thing, in my opinion.  The ability to digest complex written ideas is of primary importance.

But not Foucault or Nietzsche: the former is over-rated, the latter willfully obscure.

Except the other way around.


Please...Foucault was a one trick pony who built a career around bastardizing Nietzsche's Genealogy of Morals.

Nietzsche is regarded as obscure only because he's read as a philosopher...despite the fact that he wrote his stuff (quite intentionally) as one gigantic middle finger to the institution of philosophy.
 
2013-01-21 12:59:59 AM  

James F. Campbell: lamecomedian: Flannery O'Connor

I was with you until you mentioned her. She's not interested in what it means to be human; she's interested in brow-beating anyone who isn't Catholic.


You really need to examine your own bigotry if you expect to grow as a person.
 
2013-01-21 01:01:22 AM  

Giltric: So pay teachers more? That will surely improve the kids education.
Maybe go on strike until you get a 20% increase (in salary, not percentage of kids who can read better) over 4 years.


There's always one who feels the need to take cheap shots at the teachers. You seem to be one of the aforementioned lacking in comprehension skills.

If you think that teachers being paid a decent salary with benefits is somehow a bad thing, then perhaps you should excuse yourself from the conversation and find something more productive to do.

You could read one of those book things they've been talking about.
 
2013-01-21 01:02:30 AM  

hasty ambush: The U.S. spends more than any other nation on education.
Each year, the United States shells out billions of dollars on education. In 2010, the total annual spending on education was more than $809 billion dollars. That's more than any other industrialized nation, and more than the spending of France, Germany, Japan, Brazil, the U. K., Canada, and Australia combined. The difference is substantial when you look at annual spending per child as well. In the U.S., the average student costs the government about $7,743. The next highest nation is the United Kingdom, with $5,834 per student, a difference of almost $2,000 a year per student. So what do top performing nations like Finland and South Korea spend? Just $5,653 and $3,759 per student, respectively.


Maybe if we better allocated the money:

Education leaders say they want to devote greater funding to low-income students, but within most school districts per-pupil spending is higher at schools with more-advantaged students. Education leaders say they want to focus resources on the core subjects of math, reading, history, and science, but per-pupil spending tends to be much higher for electives, extracurricular activities, and sports. Education leaders say they want to emphasize remedial instruction to help lagging students catch up, but in most school districts per-pupil spending is significantly greater for Advanced Placement (AP) and gifted classes than for remedial ones.
 
2013-01-21 01:05:26 AM  
Common Core's annoying as Hell. The only reason we need Common Core is that people dumbed down their classes and lessons, largely because administrators and parents pressured them to do so to improve graduation rates, instead of holding firmly to standards and keeping rigor and letting some of these morons repeat a grade or 4.

How do I know? As a teacher, I have been driven out of one school and had several "serious" discussions with administrators over the low passing rate I have.

What I do know is that the students I have who do the work and pass my class have no problem passing the next year either. I don't care if only a few kids pass, as long as those that pass learn something.

I'm more about skills than content, because with skills, you can teach yourself any content.
 
2013-01-21 01:05:44 AM  

gordian: Access to books, access to books, and access to books again - books they choose themselves and own so that they can return to them and practice. Books they enjoy reading - Pokemon, Captain Underpants, the classics, comics, whatever.

I have spent a good, good chunk of my professional life on this, working with thousands of teachers and probably 30K+ children in very high poverty neighborhoods. They have no books in their homes and their schools lack the resources to give them significant access. When they have the chance to choose their own books and build their own home libraries along with the rest of their classmates, they discover they love reading. Library circulation goes up. Scores go up. They invent the concept of book clubs with their classmates. They read more, get better at it, develop their curiosities and figure out for themselves why education is meaningful. The literacy culture in homes and schools changes. It is incredible to watch.

It is a game changer, and screw NCLB & the ridiculous depth of standardized testing that now goes on. I'm all for accountability and I don't think anyone was ever harmed by Iowa Basic Skills and such - but you're grinding teachers and their students into the ground with this crap, and one big part of the fix is readily available and incredibly cheap. Books. That they choose. Let them free read, and good things will follow.

Hi, fark - this is one of my few soapboxes. If anyone's truly interested, send me a line - I've got research out the wazoo.


I could adjust my foil hat and speculate that NCLB is, in the long term, a grand social engineering experiment; a social experiment designed to dumb-down and eventually dismantle public education.

That sounds a little crazy, and it might just be a reaction to falling standards and not the other way around.

Maybe I should go back to bed.
 
2013-01-21 01:07:20 AM  

gordian: It is a game changer, and screw NCLB & the ridiculous depth of standardized testing that now goes on. I'm all for accountability and I don't think anyone was ever harmed by Iowa Basic Skills and such - but you're grinding teachers and their students into the ground with this crap, and one big part of the fix is readily available and incredibly cheap. Books. That they choose. Let them free read, and good things will follow.


Not to mention you get to a point where you are no longer teaching the material, you are teaching how to pass a test on the material A substantial difference, and a situation where you can't reasonably expect the kids to really absorb or remember the stuff they are tested on. In a very loose way I'd compare it to math, engineering and physics at the college level, you had a bunch of kids that would scour the class archives for tons of old tests, and study them over and over again hoping to see some of the problems and a bunch of kids who studied the material and went back over homeworks trying to learn the material. Now, while the first group of kids probably got better grades, a few years down the road the second group of kids are the ones who will still remember what was taught. I was in the second group, and my grades reflected that, but grades don't matter anymore and I remember a lot of what I was taught.

\Like I said, loose comparison.
 
2013-01-21 01:09:27 AM  

NewportBarGuy: BravadoGT: Surely there must be a way we can blame this on guns.


Well, they can obviously read the f*cking owner's manual.


Why would you need an owner's manual for SPORTS?
 
2013-01-21 01:09:45 AM  

Contribution Corsair: I have a theory on this and English class in general for example.

We don't really have a NEED for anything but the basics in our society as a whole.  There is not really any solid reason to have above a very basic ability to read, write, or even speak for that matter, as most of the common thoughts and ideas we need to communicate within our society have been distilled down to be recognizable or intelligible to the lowest common denominator.

If people are not challenged to develop and learn and maintain a higher level, why will they retain or teach their own children similar skills or even try to reinforce learning a higher level than they use day to day?  Yes, we try to teach it, but what are we doing to make it so that the people USE that knowledge or retain it.  Similar to many sciences and mathematics  we teach it but many people don't LEARN it because...why remember or retain that knowledge if it is never used except by a small fraction of them?


Link

Neil deGrasse Tyson answers that about math. The title is ironic, but it applies to language as well.
 
2013-01-21 01:10:02 AM  

Uchiha_Cycliste: gordian: It is a game changer, and screw NCLB & the ridiculous depth of standardized testing that now goes on. I'm all for accountability and I don't think anyone was ever harmed by Iowa Basic Skills and such - but you're grinding teachers and their students into the ground with this crap, and one big part of the fix is readily available and incredibly cheap. Books. That they choose. Let them free read, and good things will follow.

Not to mention you get to a point where you are no longer teaching the material, you are teaching how to pass a test on the material A substantial difference, and a situation where you can't reasonably expect the kids to really absorb or remember the stuff they are tested on. In a very loose way I'd compare it to math, engineering and physics at the college level, you had a bunch of kids that would scour the class archives for tons of old tests, and study them over and over again hoping to see some of the problems and a bunch of kids who studied the material and went back over homeworks trying to learn the material. Now, while the first group of kids probably got better grades, a few years down the road the second group of kids are the ones who will still remember what was taught. I was in the second group, and my grades reflected that, but grades don't matter anymore and I remember a lot of what I was taught.

\Like I said, loose comparison.


I've heard that education in India is like that. That is, when you value rote memorization over critical thinking and true mastery of the material, you get people who are merely regurgitating rather than creating.
 
2013-01-21 01:10:43 AM  
Q: When you have a group of elementary school students all holding hands as they walk through the park, how fast can they walk?

A: Only as fast as the slowest student.
 
2013-01-21 01:11:59 AM  
Those Time-Life books from the 70's were awesome. We had a not quite full set and I read the hell out of them.

I wish I had the Indiana Jones Washington DC warehouse FULL of sets of those to just give away to every damn school in the States. Multiple sets.

Every goddamned household should have a set of those books.

When I was a kid damn near every one of my relative's houses had a set of some kind of encyclopedias, it was like THE THING TO HAVE.

The hell happened to that concept?
 
2013-01-21 01:13:47 AM  
Man, NCLB is the closest I ever get to being a conspiracy theorist. Not for social engineering, but if you look at where all the fancy curricula, text books, and test mechanisms come from...you see who's making bucket loads of cash, and who their high-level political and personal connections were in the previous administration...yeah.

I honestly don't think NCLB was malicious, but it's certainly a case of a few companies going 'I have a hammer - hey look at all these little nails in classrooms across the nation I can hit! And for every one - MOOLAH! And so the snowball began to roll.

It makes me sad more than anything. And pissed. Whatever, I'm fighting the good fight and thousands of poor kids get books from it. We'e working on having a larger voice in the conversation.
 
2013-01-21 01:17:56 AM  

Amos Quito: We have seen the enemy...

And it wants more money.


/That'll fix 'er up


Blow it out your ass.

A) We all want more money (unless you're Bill Gates or Warren Buffet, and even they still have profitable stakes in their respective companies.)

B) Ask any teacher who isn't a complete moron (they're out there... I've worked with them) and they'll tell you it's not that paying teachers more money will lead to better test scores. If more money needs to spent in classrooms, teachers want it spent on supplies, books and other resources. The main arguments for paying teachers more is 1 - to retain the higher-quality teachers by remaining competitive with the suburbs, and 2 - as possessors of Masters Degrees, you need to pay enough to keep qualified people from going where the grass is greener.
 
2013-01-21 01:18:33 AM  

Uchiha_Cycliste: Not to mention you get to a point where you are no longer teaching the material, you are teaching how to pass a test on the material A substantial difference, and a situation where you can't reasonably expect the kids to really absorb or remember the stuff they are tested on. In a very loose way I'd compare it to math, engineering and physics at the college level, you had a bunch of kids that would scour the class archives for tons of old tests, and study them over and over again hoping to see some of the problems and a bunch of kids who studied the material and went back over homeworks trying to learn the material. Now, while the first group of kids probably got better grades, a few years down the road the second group of kids are the ones who will still remember what was taught. I was in the second group, and my grades reflected that, but grades don't matter anymore and I remember a lot of what I was taught.


Interesting comparison to math. I'll use that. I've actually had a bunch of chem professors tell me the biggest problem with kids coming into the doctoral program is that they're horrible at speaking off the cuff about their projects, can't present well and can't find reasonable ways to write about them. One department head even told me that she tells her worst offenders to head to the bookstore and find some novel they'll enjoy - it helps. You gotta be a good reader to do any of it.

And exactly - teaching to the test is a horrible way to learn anything except for how to pass the next test.
 
2013-01-21 01:18:38 AM  

lamecomedian: So your solution to "kids have a short attention span" is "let's accommodate that lazy habit" instead of "let's teach them how to focus?" If that were our entire approach to the education of children, nobody would ever learn to read/write/do math in the first place, because when they start it's difficult, and god forbid we should teach our children to work hard to develop a skill, right?


The point, I think, is that it doesn't have to be difficult. There are other things that students can read which explore the themes you mentioned without immediately turning them off reading. It's possible to interest students instead of pissing them off.

And I call BS on your claim of "they can't connect" to the plots of this stuff... for a number of reasons. That's just the excuse lazy teens use when they don't want to have to do the hard work of sitting down with the same task for more than 30 minutes... particularly if that task forces them to use "muscles" that they don't exercise often.

Right, and some high schooler somewhere just read the words:

'Tis just:
And it is very much lamented, Brutus,
That you have no such mirrors as will turn
Your hidden worthiness into your eye,
That you might see your shadow. I have heard,
Where many of the best respect in Rome,
Except immortal Caesar, speaking of Brutus
And groaning underneath this age's yoke,
Have wish'd that noble Brutus had his eyes.


...and threw the book across the room.

I can't imagine the utter negligence and cognitive dissonance that must be required to force semi-literate teenagers to read 400 year-old plays while simultaneously b*tching about the fact that they don't like to read. Assign something else. Something that might make them want to read more. Then suggest that what they like to read exists in the first place because of Shakespeare.
 
2013-01-21 01:18:48 AM  

pxlboy: Uchiha_Cycliste: gordian: It is a game changer, and screw NCLB & the ridiculous depth of standardized testing that now goes on. I'm all for accountability and I don't think anyone was ever harmed by Iowa Basic Skills and such - but you're grinding teachers and their students into the ground with this crap, and one big part of the fix is readily available and incredibly cheap. Books. That they choose. Let them free read, and good things will follow.

Not to mention you get to a point where you are no longer teaching the material, you are teaching how to pass a test on the material A substantial difference, and a situation where you can't reasonably expect the kids to really absorb or remember the stuff they are tested on. In a very loose way I'd compare it to math, engineering and physics at the college level, you had a bunch of kids that would scour the class archives for tons of old tests, and study them over and over again hoping to see some of the problems and a bunch of kids who studied the material and went back over homeworks trying to learn the material. Now, while the first group of kids probably got better grades, a few years down the road the second group of kids are the ones who will still remember what was taught. I was in the second group, and my grades reflected that, but grades don't matter anymore and I remember a lot of what I was taught.

\Like I said, loose comparison.

I've heard that education in India is like that. That is, when you value rote memorization over critical thinking and true mastery of the material, you get people who are merely regurgitating rather than creating.


From what I've seen, the US pretty much stands alone in terms of its demonization of "rote" learning and its celebration of "critical thinking" learning.

It also stands alone in terms of the percentage of its population that thinks that Jesus rode around on dinosaurs.

Draw your own conclusions.
 
2013-01-21 01:20:14 AM  

Kittypie070: Those Time-Life books from the 70's were awesome. We had a not quite full set and I read the hell out of them.

I wish I had the Indiana Jones Washington DC warehouse FULL of sets of those to just give away to every damn school in the States. Multiple sets.

Every goddamned household should have a set of those books.

When I was a kid damn near every one of my relative's houses had a set of some kind of encyclopedias, it was like THE THING TO HAVE.

The hell happened to that concept?


My parents had every Time-Life set from 1964 to 1988, including the Vietnam series.  When they moved to their retirement house in 2001, they gave all of them to the local library without asking us kids if we wanted any of them.

We were devastated.
 
2013-01-21 01:21:47 AM  

Yugoboy: I'm more about skills than content, because with skills, you can teach yourself any content.


Yep - first thing you have to do is get them interested in turning pages. As soon as they are, one book leads to the next and you go from 'See Spot Run' to 'Sharks are Freakin' Cool Lookit All These Awesome Facts' to cell biology or Anna Karenina or whatnot.
 
2013-01-21 01:21:56 AM  

Amos Quito: Q: When you have a group of elementary school students all holding hands as they walk through the park, how fast can they walk?

A: Only as fast as the slowest student.


Yeah, you would think.

The school my kids go to uses a system where the kids are grouped according to ability. The short description is that there are 5 levels: well below grade level, below grade level, grade level, above grade level, well above grade level. The kids are placed per subject. When it is "math" time or "reading" time or "whatever" time the kids are divided and the teaches are given a group of students who are no more than 2 hops from their level for that subject. This means a teacher is only teaching "well below to at" or "at to well above" or maybe "below to above" but the kids get instruction that is pretty close to their ability and the "fastest" kids don't have to wait for the "slowest" in the entire class.
 
2013-01-21 01:22:15 AM  

Bumblefark: pxlboy: Uchiha_Cycliste: gordian: It is a game changer, and screw NCLB & the ridiculous depth of standardized testing that now goes on. I'm all for accountability and I don't think anyone was ever harmed by Iowa Basic Skills and such - but you're grinding teachers and their students into the ground with this crap, and one big part of the fix is readily available and incredibly cheap. Books. That they choose. Let them free read, and good things will follow.

Not to mention you get to a point where you are no longer teaching the material, you are teaching how to pass a test on the material A substantial difference, and a situation where you can't reasonably expect the kids to really absorb or remember the stuff they are tested on. In a very loose way I'd compare it to math, engineering and physics at the college level, you had a bunch of kids that would scour the class archives for tons of old tests, and study them over and over again hoping to see some of the problems and a bunch of kids who studied the material and went back over homeworks trying to learn the material. Now, while the first group of kids probably got better grades, a few years down the road the second group of kids are the ones who will still remember what was taught. I was in the second group, and my grades reflected that, but grades don't matter anymore and I remember a lot of what I was taught.

\Like I said, loose comparison.

I've heard that education in India is like that. That is, when you value rote memorization over critical thinking and true mastery of the material, you get people who are merely regurgitating rather than creating.

From what I've seen, the US pretty much stands alone in terms of its demonization of "rote" learning and its celebration of "critical thinking" learning.

It also stands alone in terms of the percentage of its population that thinks that Jesus rode around on dinosaurs.

Draw your own conclusions.


We're f*cked? I think we've already learned that.
 
2013-01-21 01:23:40 AM  

stiletto_the_wise: hasty ambush: The U.S. spends more than any other nation on education.
Each year, the United States shells out billions of dollars on education. In 2010, the total annual spending on education was more than $809 billion dollars. That's more than any other industrialized nation, and more than the spending of France, Germany, Japan, Brazil, the U. K., Canada, and Australia combined. The difference is substantial when you look at annual spending per child as well. In the U.S., the average student costs the government about $7,743. The next highest nation is the United Kingdom, with $5,834 per student, a difference of almost $2,000 a year per student. So what do top performing nations like Finland and South Korea spend? Just $5,653 and $3,759 per student, respectively.

Maybe if we better allocated the money:

Education leaders say they want to devote greater funding to low-income students, but within most school districts per-pupil spending is higher at schools with more-advantaged students. Education leaders say they want to focus resources on the core subjects of math, reading, history, and science, but per-pupil spending tends to be much higher for electives, extracurricular activities, and sports. Education leaders say they want to emphasize remedial instruction to help lagging students catch up, but in most school districts per-pupil spending is significantly greater for Advanced Placement (AP) and gifted classes than for remedial ones.


D.C. public schools (Mostly low income) are spending more per student than any state in the nation, writing an $18,667 check for each child, to oust New York as the top spender, yet rank at the bottom in results.

Link

Offer of free tutoring ignored by families. If a school that gets Title I money - federal grants to benefit economically disadvantaged students - misses those goals three years in a row, it must offer supplemental services to low-income students.

Supplemental services are most often tutoring, but could also be summer school programs, and are provided by nonprofit, for-profit or other state-approved companies.

But across the nation - and throughout Colorado - most of the poorest students in low-performing schools aren't benefiting.

At Thornton Middle School, for example, 556 students were eligible for free tutoring last year, but just two took part. And at Kepner Middle School in Denver, just 28 students out of 1,046 took advantage of supplemental services provided under the law.

An August study by the federal Government Accountability Office found that just 19 percent of eligible students nationwide participated during the 2004-05 school year.
-



You cannot force them to learn.
 
2013-01-21 01:24:12 AM  

Bumblefark: From what I've seen, the US pretty much stands alone in terms of its demonization of "rote" learning and its celebration of "critical thinking" learning.

It also stands alone in terms of the percentage of its population that thinks that Jesus rode around on dinosaurs.

Draw your own conclusions.


The kids who drive down the scores so much...and often talk about Jesus riding dinosaurs, or commit crimes in poor neighborhoods...aren't given much of a chance to learn to think critically.
 
2013-01-21 01:26:14 AM  

hasty ambush: You cannot force them to learn.


Especially if they've never had reason in their daily lives to believe that education is interesting and meaningful.
 
2013-01-21 01:26:47 AM  
The thing about Common Core, NCLB, and any other reform program that pays attention ONLY to what's happening inside the school building is that the reform is destined to fail - it WON'T succeed.

The biggest problems with the worst schools aren't the teachers, the problems are rooted in dangerous neighborhoods, poor parenting skills (as a result of poor parenting skills for generations back), poverty and a lack of jobs available to those who won't or can't get a higher education. Why should students get a diploma if they're only qualified to fry burgers and mop floors?

Reforms must be holistic and tailored to fit specific environments, or they Will. Not. Work. Won't. Can't.
 
2013-01-21 01:31:09 AM  

gordian: The kids who drive down the scores so much...and often talk about Jesus riding dinosaurs, or commit crimes in poor neighborhoods


It is not as if the scores are really being driven down by all those ESL kids from south of the border.
 
2013-01-21 01:34:29 AM  

hasty ambush: stiletto_the_wise: hasty ambush:
Offer of free tutoring ignored by families. If a school that gets Title I money - federal grants to benefit economically disadvantaged students - misses those goals three years in a row, it must offer supplemental services to low-income students.

Supplemental services are most often tutoring, b ...


In my city, a significant number of the Title I tutoring companies had ties to members of the school board. They were run as profit centers and had zero demonstrable impact on student scores, but significant impact on company owners' ability to buy Cadillacs.

And, your information is correct... free tutoring is very often not taken advantage of. The problem is it takes time. Time those kids would be better off using babysitting younger siblings while mom and/or dad work their second job. Time which puts them outside the normal school transportation options, which makes getting home a real problem. And as far as the kids are concerned, it's time away from XBox and Judge Judy.
 
2013-01-21 01:36:38 AM  

StrandedInAZ: Reading books is a good way to learn grammar and writing. I would not, however, recommend reading newspapers. Seriously, I have no idea when every newspaper in the U.S. decided to stop employing copy editors. I can't even get through an edition of my local newspaper, and the news links I read on Fark are equally poorly-written.


We used to get extra credit in HS for every mistake we found.

Vectron: So to be honest, I don't think there is an education problem for white kids. The national numbers goes down as their percentage of the population goes down.

This diversity thing is becoming a pain in the ass.


It's not diversity of ethnicity - it's diversity of household income. Poverty, my friend. That's the kicker.
 
2013-01-21 01:37:34 AM  

hasty ambush: gordian: The kids who drive down the scores so much...and often talk about Jesus riding dinosaurs, or commit crimes in poor neighborhoods

It is not as if the scores are really being driven down by all those ESL kids from south of the border.


Or by kids whose parents have no reading material in their homes, or kids who aren't getting any sleep because of the gunfire in the neighborhood, or the drunken parent beating the snot out of them or the fact that they arrived at school with a vocabulary 1/4 as rich and full as kids from the suburbs.

gordian, your bigotry's showing...
 
2013-01-21 01:40:43 AM  
Great...Now kids who enjoy reading will be farked with even more.
 
2013-01-21 01:40:55 AM  

hasty ambush: You cannot force them to learn.


Reading that (very interesting) article, it seems that there are various good reasons why those disadvantaged students are not taking part in the programs, mostly boiling down to either their parents not understanding what's available and their family situation not allowing for it (the kid has to babysit other kids, cook dinner, or work). Affluent families have nannies that take care of all that stuff.

It's not enough to say "Hey, we're offering these programs" when they are, in reality, barely accessible to the people most in need of them.
 
2013-01-21 01:41:02 AM  

gordian: Uchiha_Cycliste: Not to mention you get to a point where you are no longer teaching the material, you are teaching how to pass a test on the material A substantial difference, and a situation where you can't reasonably expect the kids to really absorb or remember the stuff they are tested on. In a very loose way I'd compare it to math, engineering and physics at the college level, you had a bunch of kids that would scour the class archives for tons of old tests, and study them over and over again hoping to see some of the problems and a bunch of kids who studied the material and went back over homeworks trying to learn the material. Now, while the first group of kids probably got better grades, a few years down the road the second group of kids are the ones who will still remember what was taught. I was in the second group, and my grades reflected that, but grades don't matter anymore and I remember a lot of what I was taught.

Interesting comparison to math. I'll use that. I've actually had a bunch of chem professors tell me the biggest problem with kids coming into the doctoral program is that they're horrible at speaking off the cuff about their projects, can't present well and can't find reasonable ways to write about them. One department head even told me that she tells her worst offenders to head to the bookstore and find some novel they'll enjoy - it helps. You gotta be a good reader to do any of it.

And exactly - teaching to the test is a horrible way to learn anything except for how to pass the next test.


I find it startling that someone could get into a chem doctoral program and be incompetent in reading, writing and public speaking. They've spent at least 8 years writing structured essays, 4 of them at the college level. It's not a hard skill to learn, thesis, supporting paragraph, use quotes and evidence as support and write commentary around the quotes to demonstrate how they tie into the thesis. Then again it's probably the same problem as with the math and sciences they were able to work the material to pass the tests (and probably do well) but never bothered to learn the material. I always believed that if I understood the material well enough I should be able to demonstrate so on a test, no matter what the test threw at me. I sacrificed the time I could have been going through a dozen old finals re-reading the chapters and doing HW problems instead.

I suppose the problem is getting the students to change how they view the classes and what their goals are. It's also possible that even from early HS they have been taught to work the tests and not to learn the material through SAT prep courses and AP tests. In fact, it's possible they never really learned how to learn material and use that knowledge as opposed to learning how to pass a test. When I got to college I discovered that I didn't know how to study, as I had never been in a position where I had to in any significant way. I can totally see how if I had been taught the bad habits of only trying to pass tests from very early on, I wouldn't know any better and I would never focus on learning the material.

\It's late, I'm tried and I'm aware how poorly I'm expressing my thoughts. =/
\\Crashed on Friday night and haven't been able to sleep more than a couple hours since. b/c my right side is all messed up. =(
 
2013-01-21 01:41:09 AM  
when half the voting populace thinks scientific studies are nothing more than a conspiracy to get money, colleges are liberal breeding grounds, and a mainstream candidate for president thinks it's being a snob to say you want all kids to go to college, what do you expect to happen?

These people aren't going home and reading to their kids. they're telling them that intelligence is over rated and only "common sense" matters. They're watching shows on the History channel about ancient aliens and bigfoot and thinking they're learning something from it.
 
2013-01-21 01:41:11 AM  

gordian: hasty ambush: You cannot force them to learn.

Especially if they've never had reason in their daily lives to believe that education is interesting and meaningful.


Well you wouldn't want them to have to "act white" would you. Let them embrace their culture and enjoy their career as welfare recipients which liberals tell them they are entitled. After all if they became productive taxpayers they might not be voting democrat anymore.
 
2013-01-21 01:44:12 AM  

pxlboy: Bumblefark: pxlboy: Uchiha_Cycliste: gordian: It is a game changer, and screw NCLB & the ridiculous depth of standardized testing that now goes on. I'm all for accountability and I don't think anyone was ever harmed by Iowa Basic Skills and such - but you're grinding teachers and their students into the ground with this crap, and one big part of the fix is readily available and incredibly cheap. Books. That they choose. Let them free read, and good things will follow.

Not to mention you get to a point where you are no longer teaching the material, you are teaching how to pass a test on the material A substantial difference, and a situation where you can't reasonably expect the kids to really absorb or remember the stuff they are tested on. In a very loose way I'd compare it to math, engineering and physics at the college level, you had a bunch of kids that would scour the class archives for tons of old tests, and study them over and over again hoping to see some of the problems and a bunch of kids who studied the material and went back over homeworks trying to learn the material. Now, while the first group of kids probably got better grades, a few years down the road the second group of kids are the ones who will still remember what was taught. I was in the second group, and my grades reflected that, but grades don't matter anymore and I remember a lot of what I was taught.

\Like I said, loose comparison.

I've heard that education in India is like that. That is, when you value rote memorization over critical thinking and true mastery of the material, you get people who are merely regurgitating rather than creating.

From what I've seen, the US pretty much stands alone in terms of its demonization of "rote" learning and its celebration of "critical thinking" learning.

It also stands alone in terms of the percentage of its population that thinks that Jesus rode around on dinosaurs.

Draw your own conclusions.

We're f*cked? I think we've already learned that.


I don't think so. I see that (at least from an engineering standpoint) we are still leading everyone else in creating new things and developing new technologies. India may be producing engineers who can do what they are told, and code competently, but not engineers who could develop a project. I think we are better at development, implementation, execution and testing; the whole project cycle. We aren't stuck only being able to follow directions given to us.
 
2013-01-21 01:44:53 AM  

hasty ambush: It is not as if the scores are really being driven down by all those ESL kids from south of the border.


ESL is a significant part of it, true, but not as much as you think. For some states it might be the kids speaking Español, but certainly not everywhere, and certainly not solely due to illegal immigrants. I counted something like two dozen Asian and Polynesian first-languages being spoken in HI classrooms where my organization has an active branch. Multiply that by however many times you want along the Pacific Coast (especially CA), and then kids speaking African and Eastern European languages sprinkled everywhere.

Look at any place where a school has 70%+ free/reduced lunch eligibility, rural and urban. Dozens of schools are like that in big cities - poverty, at core, is where those numbers are coming from.
 
2013-01-21 01:46:23 AM  

Yugoboy: gordian, your bigotry's showing...


Did you think I was hasty ambush? If not, where did you get that?
 
2013-01-21 01:47:07 AM  

Uchiha_Cycliste: gordian: Uchiha_Cycliste: Not to mention you get to a point where you are no longer teaching the material, you are teaching how to pass a test on the material A substantial difference, and a situation where you can't reasonably expect the kids to really absorb or remember the stuff they are tested on. In a very loose way I'd compare it to math, engineering and physics at the college level, you had a bunch of kids that would scour the class archives for tons of old tests, and study them over and over again hoping to see some of the problems and a bunch of kids who studied the material and went back over homeworks trying to learn the material. Now, while the first group of kids probably got better grades, a few years down the road the second group of kids are the ones who will still remember what was taught. I was in the second group, and my grades reflected that, but grades don't matter anymore and I remember a lot of what I was taught.

Interesting comparison to math. I'll use that. I've actually had a bunch of chem professors tell me the biggest problem with kids coming into the doctoral program is that they're horrible at speaking off the cuff about their projects, can't present well and can't find reasonable ways to write about them. One department head even told me that she tells her worst offenders to head to the bookstore and find some novel they'll enjoy - it helps. You gotta be a good reader to do any of it.

And exactly - teaching to the test is a horrible way to learn anything except for how to pass the next test.

I find it startling that someone could get into a chem doctoral program and be incompetent in reading, writing and public speaking. They've spent at least 8 years writing structured essays, 4 of them at the college level. It's not a hard skill to learn, thesis, supporting paragraph, use quotes and evidence as support and write commentary around the quotes to demonstrate how they tie into the thesis. Then again it's probably the same problem ...


Five paragraph essay.

I don't think they teach it anymore.
 
2013-01-21 01:47:35 AM  

Yugoboy: Or by kids whose parents have no reading material in their homes, or kids who aren't getting any sleep because of the gunfire in the neighborhood, or the drunken parent beating the snot out of them or the fact that they arrived at school with a vocabulary 1/4 as rich and full as kids from the suburbs.


And the kicker: Those disadvantaged kids are not going to the same schools as those rich kids from the suburbs. The rich draw the district border lines to make sure that their schools only pull other similar kids from their affluent neighborhoods and that those other schools pull disadvantaged kids from poor neighborhoods.

No matter how much I value education and will try to pass on that value to my kid, the fact that I'm not wealthy means she will be going to a school overrun by gangs, composed 95% of english learners, and teachers who aren't qualified enough to hop over to a more affluent district.
 
2013-01-21 01:48:04 AM  

log_jammin: when half the voting populace thinks scientific studies are nothing more than a conspiracy to get money, colleges are liberal breeding grounds, and a mainstream candidate for president thinks it's being a snob to say you want all kids to go to college, what do you expect to happen?

These people aren't going home and reading to their kids. they're telling them that intelligence is over rated and only "common sense" matters. They're watching shows on the History channel about ancient aliens and bigfoot and thinking they're learning something from it.


And they will remain blue-collar slobs.
That doesn't mean that we won't have a white collar community anymore, it just means that only a certain percentage of kids could hope to reach those levels. And let's be honest, we don't have enough white collar jobs for all of them anyways, especially not now that our economy is shifting towards the service sector.
 
2013-01-21 01:49:29 AM  

Uchiha_Cycliste: \I find it startling...It's late, I'm tried and I'm aware how poorly I'm expressing my thoughts. =/
\\Crashed on Friday night and haven't been able to sleep more than a couple hours since. b/c my right side is all messed up. =(


It's not so much reading comprehension and those hard skills, more expressing yourself eloquently, speaking extemporaneously, being able to explain your position without sounding like a robot or freezing up during orals or something.

Bummer about the crash! Hope sleep helps tonight.
 
2013-01-21 01:49:32 AM  

Yugoboy: hasty ambush: gordian: The kids who drive down the scores so much...and often talk about Jesus riding dinosaurs, or commit crimes in poor neighborhoods

It is not as if the scores are really being driven down by all those ESL kids from south of the border.

Or by kids whose parents have no reading material in their homes, or kids who aren't getting any sleep because of the gunfire in the neighborhood, or the drunken parent beating the snot out of them or the fact that they arrived at school with a vocabulary 1/4 as rich and full as kids from the suburbs.

gordian, your bigotry's showing...


I am willing to bet most of those homes without reading material have booze, DVD players and xboxes. Plus my point still holds true about ESL students from South of the border being the ones driving down scores in many districts. If stating a fact makes me a bigot so be it.
 
2013-01-21 01:50:14 AM  

Lsherm: Five paragraph essay.

I don't think they teach it anymore.


you've gotta be shiatting me, I graduated HS in 2001 and we were being taught it (In middle school I suppose). Obviously as the papers you write become longer and longer you need more than 5 paragraphs. By the time I graduated high school we were expected to be able to write a 5-10 page essay.
 
2013-01-21 01:50:27 AM  

hasty ambush: gordian: hasty ambush: You cannot force them to learn.

Especially if they've never had reason in their daily lives to believe that education is interesting and meaningful.

Well you wouldn't want them to have to "act white" would you. Let them embrace their culture and enjoy their career as welfare recipients which liberals tell them they are entitled. After all if they became productive taxpayers they might not be voting democrat anymore.


Oooh. I get it. Carry on with your bad self.
 
2013-01-21 01:51:01 AM  

gordian: Bumblefark: From what I've seen, the US pretty much stands alone in terms of its demonization of "rote" learning and its celebration of "critical thinking" learning.

It also stands alone in terms of the percentage of its population that thinks that Jesus rode around on dinosaurs.

Draw your own conclusions.

The kids who drive down the scores so much...and often talk about Jesus riding dinosaurs, or commit crimes in poor neighborhoods...aren't given much of a chance to learn to think critically.


Oh, nonsense. The "critical thinking" movement in education came out of the suburban schools, as a paper-thin rationalization for not requiring little middle-class snowflakes to actually learn a damn thing. Having spent the last decade or so as an educator, watching what became of that social experiment, I'm completely comfortable with my conclusion that it was a mistake.

True critical thinking requires intellectual discipline...something that can only be acquired in the first place from (*gasp*) rote learning. Learn the rules; then you can break them. Otherwise, you might tend to confuse *having an opinion* for a genuine intellectual accomplishment.
 
2013-01-21 01:52:01 AM  

gordian: hasty ambush: It is not as if the scores are really being driven down by all those ESL kids from south of the border.

ESL is a significant part of it, true, but not as much as you think. For some states it might be the kids speaking Español, but certainly not everywhere, and certainly not solely due to illegal immigrants. I counted something like two dozen Asian and Polynesian first-languages being spoken in HI classrooms where my organization has an active branch. Multiply that by however many times you want along the Pacific Coast (especially CA), and then kids speaking African and Eastern European languages sprinkled everywhere.

Look at any place where a school has 70%+ free/reduced lunch eligibility, rural and urban. Dozens of schools are like that in big cities - poverty, at core, is where those numbers are coming from.


Funny how Asians don't seem to have as much of a problem isn't it? Must be a culutral thing.
 
2013-01-21 01:52:19 AM  

hasty ambush: After all if they became productive taxpayers they might not be voting democrat anymore.


right. The only people who vote for democrats are mooches who don't work. keep telling yourself that.

That little story really helped you guys with the last election.
 
2013-01-21 01:53:35 AM  

stiletto_the_wise: hasty ambush: You cannot force them to learn.

Reading that (very interesting) article, it seems that there are various good reasons why those disadvantaged students are not taking part in the programs, mostly boiling down to either their parents not understanding what's available and their family situation not allowing for it (the kid has to babysit other kids, cook dinner, or work). Affluent families have nannies that take care of all that stuff.

It's not enough to say "Hey, we're offering these programs" when they are, in reality, barely accessible to the people most in need of them.


You seemd to have totally ingnored the "not interested" reason for lack of participation.
 
2013-01-21 01:54:02 AM  

Uchiha_Cycliste: And they will remain blue-collar slobs.
That doesn't mean that we won't have a white collar community anymore, it just means that only a certain percentage of kids could hope to reach those levels. And let's be honest, we don't have enough white collar jobs for all of them anyways, especially not now that our economy is shifting towards the service sector.


gods and clods eh?
 
2013-01-21 01:55:54 AM  

Bumblefark: Learn the rules; then you can break them. Otherwise, you might tend to confuse *having an opinion* for a genuine intellectual accomplishment.


Hmm. I actually think we're pretty much on the same page, because I'm all for that. Maybe the movement called 'critical thinking' doesn't do much for teaching it. I'm all for a certain amount of rote - I went through elementary school at a time when my school was trying out 'new math' of some sort, and the only reason I can easily multiply and divide is because my 4th grade teacher - alone out of ALL teachers at school, as far as I know - had us memorize our times tables apart from the curriculum. So...hurrah for wonky communication. I agree with you.
 
2013-01-21 01:56:04 AM  

gordian: Uchiha_Cycliste: \I find it startling...It's late, I'm tried and I'm aware how poorly I'm expressing my thoughts. =/
\\Crashed on Friday night and haven't been able to sleep more than a couple hours since. b/c my right side is all messed up. =(

It's not so much reading comprehension and those hard skills, more expressing yourself eloquently, speaking extemporaneously, being able to explain your position without sounding like a robot or freezing up during orals or something.

Bummer about the crash! Hope sleep helps tonight.


I think that all comes with having familiarity with the subject matter. Sort of like a deeper understanding of the concepts involved, enough so to be able to use them in creative ways and make spontaneous use of them. It's like they used to say, if you really want to demonstrate you have learned something, teach it to someone else. If they never learned the material in such a way as to have a deep and thorough understanding of it, as opposed to just being able to pass tests on it, they won't be comfortable talking about anything except exactly the concepts and formulas they had drilled into them. They need a level past that where they can take what they have learned and do something new with it, or apply it in novel ways to other things, and in ways that they haven't seen before. I think again it's a matter of having acquired knowledge versus getting good grades.
 
2013-01-21 01:57:59 AM  

log_jammin: Uchiha_Cycliste: And they will remain blue-collar slobs.
That doesn't mean that we won't have a white collar community anymore, it just means that only a certain percentage of kids could hope to reach those levels. And let's be honest, we don't have enough white collar jobs for all of them anyways, especially not now that our economy is shifting towards the service sector.

gods and clods eh?


I'm just saying that having a whole bunch of dumb kids doesn't mean we have no smart kids.
 
2013-01-21 02:01:05 AM  

Amos Quito: We have seen the enemy...

And it wants more money.


/That'll fix 'er up


Amos Quito: Q: When you have a group of elementary school students all holding hands as they walk through the park, how fast can they walk?

A: Only as fast as the slowest student.



What wonderful contributions to the discussion you threadshiatter.
 
2013-01-21 02:01:47 AM  

log_jammin: hasty ambush: After all if they became productive taxpayers they might not be voting democrat anymore.

right. The only people who vote for democrats are mooches who don't work. keep telling yourself that.

That little story really helped you guys with the last election.


Just an example of truth costing an election. When the taxpayers find themselves outnumbered that is the result. One side loots the treasury to buy votes with "free stuff" the other offers taxpayers a chance to keep more of their own money.

"He who robs Peter to pay Paul can always count on the vote of Paul"

"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." - Thomas Jefferson
 
2013-01-21 02:03:58 AM  

Uchiha_Cycliste: I'm just saying that having a whole bunch of dumb kids doesn't mean we have no smart kids.


i wasn't implying it does. I'm just saying there is no reason we can't have intelligent and educated blue collar workers. well there is a reason. It's because the right wing in the country has decided it hates education and science.
 
2013-01-21 02:04:31 AM  

Bumblefark: gordian: Bumblefark: From what I've seen, the US pretty much stands alone in terms of its demonization of "rote" learning and its celebration of "critical thinking" learning.

It also stands alone in terms of the percentage of its population that thinks that Jesus rode around on dinosaurs.

Draw your own conclusions.

The kids who drive down the scores so much...and often talk about Jesus riding dinosaurs, or commit crimes in poor neighborhoods...aren't given much of a chance to learn to think critically.

Oh, nonsense. The "critical thinking" movement in education came out of the suburban schools, as a paper-thin rationalization for not requiring little middle-class snowflakes to actually learn a damn thing. Having spent the last decade or so as an educator, watching what became of that social experiment, I'm completely comfortable with my conclusion that it was a mistake.

True critical thinking requires intellectual discipline...something that can only be acquired in the first place from (*gasp*) rote learning. Learn the rules; then you can break them. Otherwise, you might tend to confuse *having an opinion* for a genuine intellectual accomplishment.


I was unaware "critical thinking" was a movement that meant 'not thinking'. In my experience it generally meant essay questions instead of regurgitating dates. If I wasn't thinking critically when I answered them, what was I doing?
 
2013-01-21 02:06:29 AM  

Uchiha_Cycliste: I think that all comes with having familiarity with the subject matter...it's a matter of having acquired knowledge versus getting good grades.


I agree with that, but the profs were actually talking about something else. Often times it was the really intelligent kids who truly knew their stuff who were selling their knowledge short through lack of being able to communicate effectively, especially on the spot. They had the content but were unable to be flexible enough with language to demonstrate the depth of their knowledge.
 
2013-01-21 02:06:31 AM  

log_jammin: Uchiha_Cycliste: I'm just saying that having a whole bunch of dumb kids doesn't mean we have no smart kids.

i wasn't implying it does. I'm just saying there is no reason we can't have intelligent and educated blue collar workers. well there is a reason. It's because the right wing in the country has decided it hates education and science.


Yup, because if you educate them, they won't vote for you. So you prevent education from getting the funding it needs, so you have a populace that lacks critical thinking skills so they eventually vote in the same sort of people who proceed to start the cycle again. The GOP has a vested interest in keeping kids dumb.
 
2013-01-21 02:08:09 AM