FARK.com: (7509845) News: The State Department has issued a updated travel advisory for Haiti, warning Americans planning to travel to the Caribbean island nation about robbery, lawlessness and infectious disease. Other News: Americans are still traveling to Haiti

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		News: The State Department has issued a updated travel advisory for Haiti, warning Americans planning to travel to the Caribbean island nation about robbery, lawlessness and infectious disease. Other News: Americans are still traveling to Haiti ( hosted.ap.org)		118
		More: Strange, State Department, Americans, Haiti, emergency evacuation, military occupation, infectious diseases

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Nothing To See Here

2012-12-30 05:42:57 PM

homelessdude: Nothing To See Here: Still safer than Chicago.

Not really......

Study: Violent Crime Has Spiked in Haiti's Cities
By Trenton Daniel
Associated Press
Posted: 03/06/2012

UNODC: Intentional homicide, count and rate per 100,000 population (1995 - 2011) (146k XLS download)

CPD: YTD City Wide Crime Statistics (pdf)

Chicago Metro Area Population: around 9.5 million
Haiti Population (total): around 10.2 million

No doubt, Chitown is no walk in the park, especially in certain neighborhoods. However, the homicide rate per 100k is far lower as well as the overall number of homicides. Not that the statistic is anything to be proud of, but saying Haiti is safer is just false.

Good knowledge, thanks.

/How do you stand on pigs feet?

EZbaked

2012-12-30 05:43:33 PM

Stopped in labadee last year. Strange place. It is completely walled off with guards just like people are saying. Zip line, little roller coaster, strong rum drinks & hot hot sun. It's not real Haiti at all.

DownDaRiver

2012-12-30 05:46:58 PM

ArcadianRefugee: Indolent: Still the best place to buy a zombie.

And it's just a hop to the Dominican Republic for some underage boy ass. Just remember to bring your Viagra.

Go away

I'm sure there are plenty of other sites you'd fit in at

whidbey

2012-12-30 05:48:14 PM

Killer Cars: Amos Quito: "We" caused Haiti's "3rd world squalor" ?

In an earlier thread, someone cited a French court ruling on marginal tax rates as if it has real bearing on the fiscal cliff talks stateside, so it's only fair the U.S also shares ownership of French colonial failures.

We do, actually. Ever since Haiti achieved independence and we failed use our influence to help it achieve a stable democracy, but I know you know that, and also have no actual interest in addressing it.

homelessdude

2012-12-30 05:50:01 PM

Nothing To See Here: /How do you stand on pigs feet?

my official stance on pigs feet is:

ows

2012-12-30 05:52:29 PM

listen, you got a caribbean island where folks eat mud cakes to survive.

maybe try fishing? i'm just sayin'

ArcadianRefugee

2012-12-30 05:53:30 PM

DownDaRiver: ArcadianRefugee: Indolent: Still the best place to buy a zombie.

And it's just a hop to the Dominican Republic for some underage boy ass. Just remember to bring your Viagra.

Go away

I'm sure there are plenty of other sites you'd fit in at

Ain't been here long, have ya?

Amos Quito

2012-12-30 05:54:07 PM

whidbey: Amos Quito: whidbey: And of course, no one wants to address how we caused the kind of 3rd world squalor found in Haiti and have done nothing to alleviate its miserable social-economic conditions so we don't have these passive-aggressive "warnings" about visiting the country in the first place. .

"We" caused Haiti's "3rd world squalor" ?

Who is "we", and how exactly did "we" do that, pray tell?

LOL. Apologize for much colonialism, much?

No, I wasn't there. I have an airtight alibi, in fact.

whidbey: Better still, what's your recipe for "fixing" said "3rd world squalor" ?
You must really be bored if you can't think of a few obvious examples. My guess is that you wouldn't want any resources diverted to improving social conditions there. Oh well.

Let me guess: Throw money at it.

But not YOUR money, other people's money, right?

Point02GPA

2012-12-30 05:54:12 PM

ows: listen, you got a caribbean island where folks eat mud cakes to survive.

maybe try fishing? i'm just sayin'

Trolling?

whidbey

2012-12-30 05:56:25 PM

Amos Quito: Let me guess: Throw money at it.

But not YOUR money, other people's money, right?

Yeah, actually some of it is. It's called "foreign aid."

Throw money at it

Because any and all attempts at social reform are relegated to such terms in your mind. How cynical of you.

bmihura

2012-12-30 05:57:08 PM

lewismarktwo: Any place that you need several injections in order to safely visit is off my list.

Here's a list of countries and their recommended vaccines.

All of them seem to require "Routine" (the most common few) and "Hepatitis B". These are some more vaccine-oriented travel destinations:

* Haiti: 5
* Philippines: 6
* China, Congo: 7
* Nigeria, Uganda, : 8

Amos Quito

2012-12-30 05:58:11 PM

whidbey: Killer Cars: Amos Quito: "We" caused Haiti's "3rd world squalor" ?

In an earlier thread, someone cited a French court ruling on marginal tax rates as if it has real bearing on the fiscal cliff talks stateside, so it's only fair the U.S also shares ownership of French colonial failures.

We do, actually. Ever since Haiti achieved independence and we failed use our influence to help it achieve a stable democracy, but I know you know that, and also have no actual interest in addressing it.

Seems to me that the more we "help" (meddle with political affairs of) other countries, the more enemies we make.

Amos Quito

2012-12-30 06:00:18 PM

whidbey: Amos Quito: Let me guess: Throw money at it.

But not YOUR money, other people's money, right?

Yeah, actually some of it is. It's called "foreign aid."

Throw money at it

Because any and all attempts at social reform are relegated to such terms in your mind. How cynical of you.

In the mean time, I'm waiting for you to list some alternative approaches, and I expect that I'll be waiting for a while, yet.

ThrobblefootSpectre

2012-12-30 06:00:41 PM

whidbey: And of course, no one wants to address how we caused the kind of 3rd world squalor found in Haiti and have done nothing to alleviate its miserable social-economic conditions so we don't have these passive-aggressive "warnings" about visiting the country in the first place. .

Correct. We caused it by sending a lot of aid and free food. Which causes local farms (their entire economy) to go out of business and destroys their economy. The Haitian government has been asking the U.S. to stop sending free stuff for a long time.

Killer Cars

2012-12-30 06:01:27 PM

whidbey: Ever since Haiti achieved independence and we failed use our influence to help it achieve a stable democracy, but I know you know that, and also have no actual interest in addressing it.

Supporting Duvalier was bad, and it's part of a long list of the U.S backing terrible horses because ZOMG COMMUNIZM. No argument there. There's a difference though between "U.S policies have strongly hindered Haiti's growth and stability" and "we caused it".

Quantum Apostrophe

2012-12-30 06:03:01 PM

I've worked with several older Haitian engineers over the years. They told me that basically, anyone who could leave, did. The ones that didn't need to, stayed, as well as those that couldn't leave. So you're left with a country with the rich and powerful and the indigent.

How do you fix that?

Ronin_S

2012-12-30 06:03:17 PM

ThrobblefootSpectre: whidbey: And of course, no one wants to address how we caused the kind of 3rd world squalor found in Haiti and have done nothing to alleviate its miserable social-economic conditions so we don't have these passive-aggressive "warnings" about visiting the country in the first place. .

Correct. We caused it by sending a lot of aid and free food. Which causes local farms (their entire economy) to go out of business and destroys their economy. The Haitian government has been asking the U.S. to stop sending free stuff for a long time.

The government corruption doesn't help matters either.

whidbey

2012-12-30 06:03:18 PM

Amos Quito: whidbey: Killer Cars: Amos Quito: "We" caused Haiti's "3rd world squalor" ?

In an earlier thread, someone cited a French court ruling on marginal tax rates as if it has real bearing on the fiscal cliff talks stateside, so it's only fair the U.S also shares ownership of French colonial failures.

We do, actually. Ever since Haiti achieved independence and we failed use our influence to help it achieve a stable democracy, but I know you know that, and also have no actual interest in addressing it.

Seems to me that the more we "help" (meddle with political affairs of) other countries, the more enemies we make.

Yeah well I'd agree that powerful private industries didn't want stable democracies there, either. We still have the obligation to do the right thing, and yes it's going to take some "throwing money" to do it.

BigRightRear

2012-12-30 06:03:41 PM

ows: listen, you got a caribbean island where folks eat mud cakes to survive.

maybe try fishing? i'm just sayin'

They cut down all the trees decades ago. The erosion killed the reef system.

dprathbun

2012-12-30 06:05:39 PM

12349876: Punta Cana DR has become the third busiest Caribbean airport behind Cancun and San Juan PR.

Really? At 1503 PST there isn't a single vessel in either Punta Cana or Cancun. San Juan has eight.

dprathbun

2012-12-30 06:06:22 PM

Oh. Airport.

Never mind.

whidbey

2012-12-30 06:07:45 PM

Amos Quito: Because any and all attempts at social reform are relegated to such terms in your mind. How cynical of you.

In the mean time, I'm waiting for you to list some alternative approaches, and I expect that I'll be waiting for a while, yet.

No you aren't. But you're welcome to keep pretending that keeping things the way they are is the best solution, that any attempts at engaging a country in a positive non-exploitative manner is a waste of resources.

I already knew what your position was going to be when I made the mistake of replying to you the first time.

Amos Quito

2012-12-30 06:10:57 PM

From your link:

"Haiti's capital saw 60.9 murders per 100,000 residents over the year leading up to February 2012 " [...] "In comparison, New York City's homicide rate was less than 7 per 100,000 in 2011, while Oakland, California, had 23 homicides per 100,000 residents."

And the Haitians manage to do all this while being sorely deprived of access to firearms:

"Rate of Civilian Firearm Possession per 100 Population - The rate of private gun ownership in Haiti is 0.6² firearms per 100 people"
Say what you will about those Haitians, but when it comes to murder, they're clever and resourceful.

whidbey

2012-12-30 06:11:04 PM

Pretty sure we caused it by turning a blind eye to corporations raping the f*ck out of their natural resources and making sure elected governments were overthrown, but I wouldn't mind seeing a link. I have a hard time believing that any sort of aid to a starving country is a bad thing.

jigger

2012-12-30 06:12:59 PM

TomD9938

2012-12-30 06:15:44 PM

born_yesterday: I'd love to visit Haiti. It's one of the few places in the world where a man of humble beginnings such as myself could rise to a upper management position in some warlord's regime. If things didn't work out, it's a short flight home.

It's a Fantasy Camp for synchophants.

Bit'O'Gristle

2012-12-30 06:16:29 PM

I'm trying to imagine why anyone would want to go there in the first place. It's a cesspool.

Barricaded Gunman

2012-12-30 06:18:12 PM

skinink: So many places to see in the world, and you choose Haiti?

Ugh... this. Nothing I enjoy more on my vacation than grinding poverty, hunger and sadness all around me. Haiti would even be worse than Jamaica, which is bad enough.

DownDaRiver

2012-12-30 06:22:02 PM

ArcadianRefugee: DownDaRiver: ArcadianRefugee: Indolent: Still the best place to buy a zombie.

And it's just a hop to the Dominican Republic for some underage boy ass. Just remember to bring your Viagra.

Go away

I'm sure there are plenty of other sites you'd fit in at

Ain't been here long, have ya?

Long enough to know that homosexual pedophilia comments aren't as edgy as you might think tthey are

homelessdude

2012-12-30 06:24:17 PM

Amos Quito:
And the Haitians manage to do all this while being sorely deprived of access to firearms:
"Rate of Civilian Firearm Possession per 100 Population - The rate of private gun ownership in Haiti is 0.62 firearms per 100 people". Say what you will about those Haitians, but when it comes to murder, they're clever and resourceful.

Well, first off, I don't consider murder clever at all. In fact, I consider it to be the action of people who are anything but clever. I think clever people find solutions that, if in the least, do not involve snuffing out another human life.

Also, the gun ownership analogy you are using (and I am not completely clear why you are bringing it up) is pretty much an argument of false analogy . The issue was about murder rate, not firearm ownership. So I am not sure where you were going with that.

Amos Quito

2012-12-30 06:25:44 PM

whidbey: Amos Quito: whidbey: Killer Cars: Amos Quito: "We" caused Haiti's "3rd world squalor" ?

In an earlier thread, someone cited a French court ruling on marginal tax rates as if it has real bearing on the fiscal cliff talks stateside, so it's only fair the U.S also shares ownership of French colonial failures.

We do, actually. Ever since Haiti achieved independence and we failed use our influence to help it achieve a stable democracy, but I know you know that, and also have no actual interest in addressing it.

Seems to me that the more we "help" (meddle with political affairs of) other countries, the more enemies we make.

Yeah well I'd agree that powerful private industries didn't want stable democracies there, either.

Why, for heaven's sake?

whidbey: We still have the obligation to do the right thing, and yes it's going to take some "throwing money" to do it.

Again, what (exactly) is the "right thing"? Whose money shall we throw, and what affect do you presume said money might have?

Beyond that, who should oversee the administration of these funds? Haitians? Americans? Someone else?

Don't these do-gooder programs usually just feed corruption while the poor and hungry just get poorer and hungrier?

The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves

2012-12-30 06:26:41 PM

So just reissuing the last advisory then?

ArcadianRefugee

2012-12-30 06:31:43 PM

DownDaRiver: ArcadianRefugee: DownDaRiver: ArcadianRefugee: Indolent: Still the best place to buy a zombie.

And it's just a hop to the Dominican Republic for some underage boy ass. Just remember to bring your Viagra.

Go away

I'm sure there are plenty of other sites you'd fit in at

Ain't been here long, have ya?

Long enough to know that homosexual pedophilia comments aren't as edgy as you might think tthey are

Are Rush Limbaugh jokes still good?

/"edgy"? really? on a site filled with priest pedophilia comments?

skinink

2012-12-30 06:36:33 PM

For someone so concerned about other people, you reply like you're an asshole. You bought up this point, so instead of being sarcastic just answer it. You started it.

whidbey

2012-12-30 06:41:02 PM

Amos Quito: Yeah well I'd agree that powerful private industries didn't want stable democracies there, either.

Why, for heaven's sake?

So you're just going to pretend that huge corporations like United Fruit and Dole want the locals deciding what should be done with the resources? Is this a joke?

whidbey: We still have the obligation to do the right thing, and yes it's going to take some "throwing money" to do it.

Again, what (exactly) is the "right thing"? Whose money shall we throw, and what affect do you presume said money might have?

Beyond that, who should oversee the administration of these funds? Haitians? Americans? Someone else?

Don't these do-gooder programs usually just feed corruption while the poor and hungry just get poorer and hungrier?

The "right thing" is to provide the kind of aid and leadership to improve Haiti's educational system and further them along to to a stable economic system where they can self-govern without the fear of living in a zone full of war lords. Come on. This isn't a radical concept.

It's actually pretty hard to tell where you're just being willfully dense, or just too cynical to consider a course of action at all.

Amos Quito

2012-12-30 06:53:52 PM

homelessdude: Amos Quito:
And the Haitians manage to do all this while being sorely deprived of access to firearms:
"Rate of Civilian Firearm Possession per 100 Population - The rate of private gun ownership in Haiti is 0.62 firearms per 100 people". Say what you will about those Haitians, but when it comes to murder, they're clever and resourceful.

Well, first off, I don't consider murder clever at all. In fact, I consider it to be the action of people who are anything but clever. I think clever people find solutions that, if in the least, do not involve snuffing out another human life.

Also, the gun ownership analogy you are using (and I am not completely clear why you are bringing it up) is pretty much an argument of false analogy . The issue was about murder rate, not firearm ownership. So I am not sure where you were going with that.

My response wasn't necessarily directed AT YOU. I don't necessarily disagree with what said, but I did read your link, did some research, and posted what I thought was interesting comparative data.

America is currently in an anti-gun hissy-fit, and in the minds of many 'Mericuns, murder=guns, therefor (in their minds) fewer guns automatically means lower murder rate.

Port au Prince offers a different perspective.

EnglishMajor

2012-12-30 06:58:02 PM

A friend's daughter went to Haiti to "try to help out." She probably gave out sunscreen and expounded on the virtues of Tupperware. Of course, she's from Venice, CA so Haiti may have been a refuge from insanity.

ThrobblefootSpectre

2012-12-30 07:02:41 PM

whidbey: but I wouldn't mind seeing a link.

Link

They've been pleading with us for years to stop destroying their only form of employment by dumping ships full of free stuff on their shores.

Another Government Employee

2012-12-30 07:04:34 PM

Ronin_S: ThrobblefootSpectre: whidbey: And of course, no one wants to address how we caused the kind of 3rd world squalor found in Haiti and have done nothing to alleviate its miserable social-economic conditions so we don't have these passive-aggressive "warnings" about visiting the country in the first place. .

Correct. We caused it by sending a lot of aid and free food. Which causes local farms (their entire economy) to go out of business and destroys their economy. The Haitian government has been asking the U.S. to stop sending free stuff for a long time.

The government corruption doesn't help matters either.

What government? They haven't had a functioning one in fifteen years.

Amos Quito

2012-12-30 07:07:04 PM

whidbey: Amos Quito: Yeah well I'd agree that powerful private industries didn't want stable democracies there, either.

Why, for heaven's sake?

So you're just going to pretend that huge corporations like United Fruit and Dole want the locals deciding what should be done with the resources? Is this a joke?

whidbey: We still have the obligation to do the right thing, and yes it's going to take some "throwing money" to do it.

Again, what (exactly) is the "right thing"? Whose money shall we throw, and what affect do you presume said money might have?

Beyond that, who should oversee the administration of these funds? Haitians? Americans? Someone else?

Don't these do-gooder programs usually just feed corruption while the poor and hungry just get poorer and hungrier?

The "right thing" is to provide the kind of aid and leadership to improve Haiti's educational system and further them along to to a stable economic system where they can self-govern without the fear of living in a zone full of war lords. Come on. This isn't a radical concept.

So you're saying that we need to go in and take charge - to teach these primitive, backward people how to rise up to OUR standards by doing things OUR way?

You know, you started off by saying that "we" caused Haiti's economic problems with out "colonization".

Now it sounds like you're saying that the "problem" is that "we" didn't colonize them thoroughly enough.

ThrobblefootSpectre

2012-12-30 07:08:59 PM

ThrobblefootSpectre: whidbey: but I wouldn't mind seeing a link.

BTW, many economists in African nations have been begging us for the same thing for decades.

Link

Kitari

2012-12-30 07:35:42 PM

Eyes back to our own fiscal issues....

homelessdude

2012-12-30 07:43:26 PM

Amos Quito: homelessdude: Amos Quito:
And the Haitians manage to do all this while being sorely deprived of access to firearms:
"Rate of Civilian Firearm Possession per 100 Population - The rate of private gun ownership in Haiti is 0.62 firearms per 100 people". Say what you will about those Haitians, but when it comes to murder, they're clever and resourceful.

Well, first off, I don't consider murder clever at all. In fact, I consider it to be the action of people who are anything but clever. I think clever people find solutions that, if in the least, do not involve snuffing out another human life.

Also, the gun ownership analogy you are using (and I am not completely clear why you are bringing it up) is pretty much an argument of false analogy . The issue was about murder rate, not firearm ownership. So I am not sure where you were going with that.

My response wasn't necessarily directed AT YOU. I don't necessarily disagree with what said, but I did read your link, did some research, and posted what I thought was interesting comparative data.

America is currently in an anti-gun hissy-fit, and in the minds of many 'Mericuns, murder=guns, therefor (in their minds) fewer guns automatically means lower murder rate.

Port au Prince offers a different perspective.

Cool....I hear ya. Thanks for clarifying. Sounds like we are on the same page. Don't get me wrong either about PaP and the parallels with the Windy City. Chicago has a seriously screwed up situation that is not likely to get better soon. There is a "that's just the way it is" culture when looking at the city's issues that is pervasive in not only city ranks, but in the general public. I have only been back here for 7 years, but I still am not used to the way people so blithely dismiss corruption and crime as a way of life as one might dismiss a kid who stole a cookie. It is a weird mindset.

NYC had this mentality too up until just about the turn of the century. While it has diminished quite a bit, it has at the same time been at expense of the civil liberties of large swaths of the population who are not powerful enough in politics to defend themselves. While I am not dismissing criminal behavior, I also like to think that beating down people is not an answer either.

But Haiti is a different case in that it has the unfortunate history of getting kicked in the teeth, stepped on, stripped down and for the most part raped by not only governments, but big business. What is left is a largely dysfunctional society (governmentally dysfunctional) that is still years from recovery, if not decades. The progress has been slow, but not for a lack of trying. Instead, what probably amounts to over 100 years of getting kicked to the curb just won't go away overnight. It is going to take some time - maybe a couple of generations.

I will stop here before I get too much farther into a wall-of-text. Suffice to say, the whole Haiti situation is not as cut and dry as the bad guys wearing the black hats and the good guys wearing the white hats.

CigaretteSmokingMan

2012-12-30 07:52:18 PM

What happened to all that money Clinton and Bush collected?

mrmaster

2012-12-30 07:56:14 PM

My wife's friend has gone to Haiti three times this year. She does something in the medical field.

I heard Haiti has natural resources in their mountains. Maybe eventually that will help Haiti out.

Big maybe ofcourse.

over_and_done

2012-12-30 08:00:13 PM

Subby's fail attempt at humor notwithstanding, the "americans still traveling to Haiti" are mostly aid workers and volunteers, trying to do something about the horrible conditions. Some friends of my family go on a regular basis with a farkload of building materials, medical supplies, etc. They've never told any stories about being in any kind of danger; sometimes the locals will volunteer themselves as unofficial bodyguards because they know that letting medical aid get killed is a really retarded thing to do in the long term.

95BV5

2012-12-30 08:14:14 PM

whidbey: Amos Quito: Yeah well I'd agree that powerful private industries didn't want stable democracies there, either.

Why, for heaven's sake?

So you're just going to pretend that huge corporations like United Fruit and Dole want the locals deciding what should be done with the resources? Is this a joke?

whidbey: We still have the obligation to do the right thing, and yes it's going to take some "throwing money" to do it.

Again, what (exactly) is the "right thing"? Whose money shall we throw, and what affect do you presume said money might have?

Beyond that, who should oversee the administration of these funds? Haitians? Americans? Someone else?

Don't these do-gooder programs usually just feed corruption while the poor and hungry just get poorer and hungrier?

The "right thing" is to provide the kind of aid and leadership to improve Haiti's educational system and further them along to to a stable economic system where they can self-govern without the fear of living in a zone full of war lords. Come on. This isn't a radical concept.

It's actually pretty hard to tell where you're just being willfully dense, or just too cynical to consider a course of action at all.

As someone who's lived in Haiti longer than everyone else in this thread combined, let me tell you that Haitian *schools* are adequate, in the Catholic tradition. The problems can be found in thrrupt government and the vastly inequitable distribution of wealth.

Oldiron_79

2012-12-30 08:17:19 PM

Indolent: Still the best place to buy a zombie.

Yeah but they ate voo doo zombies not undead ones

eatin' fetus

2012-12-30 08:45:37 PM

whidbey: And of course, no one wants to address how we caused the kind of 3rd world squalor found in Haiti and have done nothing to alleviate its miserable social-economic conditions...

So, exactly how much money have you sent to Haiti in order to aid their miserable "social-economic" conditions?

/the word is "socioeconomic", dumbass

Turbo Cojones

2012-12-30 08:49:21 PM

If that doesn't work out there are always the Mexican cartels. Los Zetas are hiring I hear!

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