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(NewsOK)   Hobby Lobby to continue hobby of lobbying Appeals Court to allow their other hobby of lobbing their beliefs on their employees private lobby hobbies   ( newsok.com) divider line
    More: Followup, sidelines, appeals court  
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7734 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Dec 2012 at 4:02 PM (5 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



516 Comments     (+0 »)
 
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2012-12-28 01:47:23 PM  
I really can't support a company with such a dishonest name. Who calls themselves Hobby Lobby but doesn't support the hobby of sex?
 
2012-12-28 01:48:06 PM  
Maybe they should become a church if they want to have church rules.
 
2012-12-28 01:52:45 PM  
Guess I'd better use my $50 Hobby Lobby gift card ASAP before they acquire interest on it.
 
2012-12-28 02:01:10 PM  
The headline was basically doing alright until that apostrophe.
 
2012-12-28 02:04:21 PM  

Relatively Obscure: The headline was basically doing alright until that apostrophe.


Thank you.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-12-28 02:25:50 PM  
It's kind of a silly argument. Health care is part of the compensation package. You might as well argue that you should be able to pay with scrip so you can make sure that employees don't buy rubbers with money the company pays them.
 
2012-12-28 02:31:00 PM  
mojoimage.comView Full Size



Dobby approves of the headline
 
2012-12-28 02:54:22 PM  

gopher321: [mojoimage.com image 500x333]


Dobby approves of the headline


hotflick.netView Full Size


So does Robbie.
 
2012-12-28 03:03:12 PM  
Hey, why not just follow your employees home to make sure they're not farking for fun?
 
2012-12-28 03:55:51 PM  
If we had a single payer system were the federal or state governments offered the plans, this wouldn't be an issue.  Companies wouldn't have any direct part in healthcare compensation.  A lot of smaller companies would have preferred such a system so they don't have to be involved in the healthcare cluserfark.

Instead, we have our current mess.  Thanks Congress.
 
2012-12-28 04:04:24 PM  
Submitter: you sir, are a mouthful.
 
2012-12-28 04:05:28 PM  
I just spent $40 at Sam Flax instead of Hobby Lobby because of this. Tried to email them a pic of my receipt, but for some reason there doesn't appear o be a link to email them with comments on their website.
 
2012-12-28 04:05:30 PM  

AdolfOliverPanties: gopher321: [mojoimage.com image 500x333]


Dobby approves of the headline

[www.hotflick.net image 720x540]

So does Robbie.


userserve-ak.last.fmView Full Size


So does Mr. Blobby?

/blobby blobby blobby blobby
 
2012-12-28 04:05:31 PM  
Happy Holidays!
 
2012-12-28 04:05:50 PM  
sylviagarza.files.wordpress.comView Full Size


Bobby would love to hobby with you.
 
2012-12-28 04:06:14 PM  
This will end well for them. Everyone knows the gays just abhor arts & crafts. No way this could possibly hurt their business more than covering birth control.
 
2012-12-28 04:06:16 PM  
A well done headline subby
 
2012-12-28 04:07:03 PM  
This should be on HOTY
 
2012-12-28 04:07:14 PM  
Yes, the pill, morning-after pill, and IUDs are "abortion-causing devices". Whatta maroon.
 
2012-12-28 04:07:52 PM  

Di Atribe: Hey, why not just follow your employees home to make sure they're not farking for fun?


Hey, don't put that past the Green family. They are, how shall we say, true holy rollers. Of course they live like billionaires, not humble servants of god (that would be their many minimum wage slaves), but you gotta draw the line somewhere, right?
 
2012-12-28 04:08:01 PM  
hwdyk.comView Full Size

Whoopiditty do!
 
2012-12-28 04:10:02 PM  
I can't respect a company that is based in the leisure industry, yet is closed on a day when most people have leisure.
 
2012-12-28 04:10:23 PM  

ghare: I just spent $40 at Sam Flax instead of Hobby Lobby because of this. Tried to email them a pic of my receipt, but for some reason there doesn't appear o be a link to email them with comments on their website.


That 40 bucks is going to push them right over the edge.

Boycotting them is kind of counter productive. If enough people did that (they won't), it would have more of a negative impact on the employees, then it would the company. Sales are down, you lay off people.
 
2012-12-28 04:10:36 PM  

hemogoblin: I can't respect a company that is based in the leisure industry, yet is closed on a day when most people have leisure.


Amen...
 
2012-12-28 04:11:19 PM  
I have a link in the queue with the same URL, and... whoever ganked my greenlight, you did better than I did.
 
2012-12-28 04:12:30 PM  
Religious belief does not make you exempt from law that affects everyone.* You do not get to deny health benefits, hide your face for a driver's licence photo, beat your children for having a boyfriend, or smoke weed.


*(Unless your ancestors were here before the U.S. existed and peyote is a historically documented part of your religion.)
 
2012-12-28 04:12:57 PM  
What makes fundies such awful pieces of shiat?
 
2012-12-28 04:13:53 PM  

KiTTeNs_on_AciD: This will end well for them. Everyone knows the gays just abhor arts & crafts. No way this could possibly hurt their business more than covering birth control.


I'd think gays would be ambivalent about birth control since they really don't need it to prevent pregnancy.
 
2012-12-28 04:14:05 PM  
I don't like Hobby Lobby because the name is deceptive. I see "hobby lobby" and I think that it would be a pretty good place for a model kit builder and wargamer, but it is not. Too much arts and crafts, and perhaps useful for building scenery/gaming tables, but that's it.
 
2012-12-28 04:14:12 PM  
I can't wait to see the first lawsuit from some female Hobby Lobby employee who gets knocked up on 1 January, 2013.

/whoreby lubey
 
2012-12-28 04:14:43 PM  

you are a puppet: Submitter: you sir, are a mouthful.


hmms. That could almost be an insult
 
2012-12-28 04:14:56 PM  
There is an easy solution that they'll probably take.

Just stop providing health insurance.

That'll make everyone happy , right?
 
2012-12-28 04:15:25 PM  
On an unrelated note.

Owner with 6 employees figured up the math on providing insurance for the first time to his employees.

It'll be cheaper for him to take a 350 dollar hit per employee including himself and wife. Which wouldn't be an issue except she's never worked there. But the state government told him she always has. Meanwhile the employees will go forth and get Obama care.
 
2012-12-28 04:15:44 PM  
Convenience abortions should be prosecuted as first degree murder.

Go ahead idiot liberals - open up this can of worms of pushing your beliefs on others through Obamacare and see what kind of a country we end up with. Because it won't take long for the ball to be in the other court, and I have a feeling the next republican president will make G W Bush look like Mahatma Gandhi, and then you dumbasses will really have something to cry about.
 
2012-12-28 04:15:50 PM  

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: Boycotting them is kind of counter productive.


So if you disagree with their policy, you should shop there even more? Well, that's a tacit that I had not thought of. "Hey, Green Family, I don't agree with your policies, here's more money for you."
 
2012-12-28 04:16:05 PM  

ThrobblefootSpectre: Religious belief does not make you exempt from law that affects everyone.* You do not get to deny health benefits


Actually, you do if you're a church. Hobby Lobby is a business, so they can cry all they want about their beliefs; the law quite clearly applies to them.
 
2012-12-28 04:17:21 PM  

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: ghare: I just spent $40 at Sam Flax instead of Hobby Lobby because of this. Tried to email them a pic of my receipt, but for some reason there doesn't appear o be a link to email them with comments on their website.

That 40 bucks is going to push them right over the edge.

Boycotting them is kind of counter productive. If enough people did that (they won't), it would have more of a negative impact on the employees, then it would the company. Sales are down, you lay off people.


That's assuming you've quit your hobby instead of taking your business elsewhere. Why would you quit your hobby?
 
2012-12-28 04:17:28 PM  

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: That 40 bucks is going to push them right over the edge.

Boycotting them is kind of counter productive. If enough people did that (they won't), it would have more of a negative impact on the employees, then it would the company. Sales are down, you lay off people.


You're absolutely right.  Continuing to shop there is the best possible way to send a message that their attempts to interfere with the private lives of their employees will not be tolerated.
 
2012-12-28 04:17:43 PM  
encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.comView Full Size

Do you see that? Its a modern reflector on an Amish buggy. The Amish did not want to put modern reflectors on their buggies, but the law says they have to.
 
2012-12-28 04:18:30 PM  
Just pandering to those narrow-minded imbeciles that want to score some brownie points for heaven for their imaginary but insecure sky-wizard.  OH MY, GAWD doesn't like ABORTION or BIRTH CONTROL!  It sez right there in the BAHBULL!!!  Praise the LAWD!!!

Oh, and they just feel the rush of POWER they get for doing this. Doesn't matter how many lives of women they ruin with their little 'hobby' here.

Selfish, goddamn assholes. With money. Lots of goddamn money. Money that goddamn politicians just farkin' LOVE.
 
2012-12-28 04:18:39 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: Maybe they should become a church if they want to have church rules.


Or maybe they should be a private company, one of those places where you can choose on your own whether or not to shop there or work there.
 
2012-12-28 04:18:39 PM  

ThrobblefootSpectre: Religious belief does not make you exempt from law that affects everyone.* You do not get to deny health benefits, hide your face for a driver's licence photo, beat your children for having a boyfriend, or smoke weed.


*(Unless your ancestors were here before the U.S. existed and peyote is a historically documented part of your religion.)



We get to smoke weed in Colorado now.

And we don't even need religion to do it ;P
 
2012-12-28 04:18:48 PM  
Your beliefs are not necessarily those of your employees. You don't get to claim religious prerogative when what you're being required to do has no effect on you personally and does not infringe upon your beliefs as they pertain to you. STFU and choke it down.

/Farking fundies.
 
2012-12-28 04:18:53 PM  

cmb53208: What makes fundies such awful pieces of shiat?


Same kind of stuff that make non-fundies also pieces of shiat; nosing into other peoples business.
 
2012-12-28 04:19:33 PM  
ok, here goes..

if you don't like it, then find another job...it's not mandatory that you believe what they do nor is it mandatory that you are employed there...
 
2012-12-28 04:20:26 PM  
I'm quite enjoying the Hobby Lobby ads on this page as I read it.
 
2012-12-28 04:20:53 PM  

NightOwl2255: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: Boycotting them is kind of counter productive.

So if you disagree with their policy, you should shop there even more? Well, that's a tacit tactic that I had not thought of. "Hey, Green Family, I don't agree with your policies, here's more money for you."


FTFM
 
2012-12-28 04:21:01 PM  

cwolf20: On an unrelated note.

Owner with 6 employees figured up the math on providing insurance for the first time to his employees.

It'll be cheaper for him to take a 350 dollar hit per employee including himself and wife. Which wouldn't be an issue except she's never worked there. But the state government told him she always has. Meanwhile the employees will go forth and get Obama care.


Too bad "Owner" doesn't work hard enough to afford what is legally required. Some job creator "Owner" is... he must not be very smart.
 
2012-12-28 04:21:27 PM  
rockbandaide.comView Full Size


Their lawyer.

/You should read his law blog
 
2012-12-28 04:21:39 PM  
30.media.tumblr.comView Full Size


Christian Science Pharmacist refuses to fill any prescription
 
2012-12-28 04:21:56 PM  

WhoopAssWayne: Convenience abortions should be prosecuted as first degree murder.

Go ahead idiot liberals - open up this can of worms of pushing your beliefs on others through Obamacare and see what kind of a country we end up with. Because it won't take long for the ball to be in the other court, and I have a feeling the next republican president will make G W Bush look like Mahatma Gandhi, and then you dumbasses will really have something to cry about.


Oh my god, you're a riot!
Can you do a bit about welfare now?
 
2012-12-28 04:22:12 PM  
I really can't hate them for saying that they don't want to offer coverage that goes against their beliefs. They aren't saying that they don't want their female employees not to be on the pill or whatever, just that they don't want to offer those programs. If their employees don't like it, they can find work else where. It shouldn't be the government's position to tell businesses exactly what benefits they have to offer, what kind of healthcare packages they have to provide.
 
2012-12-28 04:23:22 PM  

special20: cwolf20: On an unrelated note.

Owner with 6 employees figured up the math on providing insurance for the first time to his employees.

It'll be cheaper for him to take a 350 dollar hit per employee including himself and wife. Which wouldn't be an issue except she's never worked there. But the state government told him she always has. Meanwhile the employees will go forth and get Obama care.

Too bad "Owner" doesn't work hard enough to afford what is legally required. Some job creator "Owner" is... he must not be very smart.


Maybe he has worthless employees who spend too much time on FARK instead of working hard and increasing productivity.
 
2012-12-28 04:23:28 PM  

Great Janitor: They aren't saying that they don't want their female employees not to be on the pill or whatever, just that they don't want to offer those programs.


Actually, that's exactly what they're saying.
 
2012-12-28 04:23:52 PM  

Great Janitor: It shouldn't be the government's position to tell businesses exactly what benefits they have to offer, what kind of healthcare packages they have to provide.


You're right; the government should be doing that all themselves for everyone
 
2012-12-28 04:23:56 PM  

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: ghare: I just spent $40 at Sam Flax instead of Hobby Lobby because of this. Tried to email them a pic of my receipt, but for some reason there doesn't appear o be a link to email them with comments on their website.

That 40 bucks is going to push them right over the edge.

Boycotting them is kind of counter productive. If enough people did that (they won't), it would have more of a negative impact on the employees, then it would the company. Sales are down, you lay off people.


Agreed. Instead of just boycotting, why not print up some facts about Hobby Lobby and birth control and slip them onto shelves.
 
2012-12-28 04:24:02 PM  

o5iiawah: The My Little Pony Killer: Maybe they should become a church if they want to have church rules.

Or maybe they should be a private company, one of those places where you can choose on your own whether or not to shop there or work there.


dafuq did I just read?
 
2012-12-28 04:24:18 PM  

cmb53208: What makes fundies such awful pieces of shiat?


Religion.
 
2012-12-28 04:24:42 PM  
Golly.
 
2012-12-28 04:25:46 PM  

ghare: I just spent $40 at Sam Flax instead of Hobby Lobby because of this. Tried to email them a pic of my receipt, but for some reason there doesn't appear o be a link to email them with comments on their website.


I sent money to Planned Parenthood and then posted a screenshot of my contribution receipt to Komen's Facebook page. It was deleted faster than you can say "Abortionplex".
 
2012-12-28 04:25:56 PM  

SisterMaryElephant: We get to smoke weed in Colorado now.


Not because of religion though.

I included that because the rastafarians in Florida have been claiming the religious right to get stoned for decades now.
 
2012-12-28 04:26:20 PM  

imtheonlylp: ok, here goes..

if you don't like it, then find another job...it's not mandatory that you believe what they do nor is it mandatory that you are employed there...


Your logic:
1). Law is created to protect employees.
2). Employer violates law.
3). Punish employee.
 
2012-12-28 04:27:14 PM  

cmb53208: What makes fundies such awful pieces of shiat?


I think it goes the opposite direction... awful pieces of shiat are attracted to fundamentalism, which further encourages them to be complete and utter shaitheads.
 
2012-12-28 04:27:29 PM  
They worse than Taliban.
 
2012-12-28 04:27:39 PM  

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: ghare: I just spent $40 at Sam Flax instead of Hobby Lobby because of this. Tried to email them a pic of my receipt, but for some reason there doesn't appear o be a link to email them with comments on their website.

That 40 bucks is going to push them right over the edge.

Boycotting them is kind of counter productive. If enough people did that (they won't), it would have more of a negative impact on the employees, then it would the company. Sales are down, you lay off people.


Yeah, you couldn't, you know, become more efficient, or change your stupid policy, or reduce executives salaries or anything else, all you can do is lay off employees.

I'll boycott anyway. I suspect I'm not alone, you see.
 
2012-12-28 04:28:39 PM  
FTA: "Our family is now being forced to choose between following the laws of the land that we love or maintaining the religious beliefs that have made our business successful and supported our family and thousands of our employees and their families," Green said in September. "We simply cannot abandon our religious beliefs to comply with this mandate."

$10 says that this exact argument, or words to that affect, were used against the idea of making slavery illegal.
 
2012-12-28 04:29:17 PM  

Great Janitor: It shouldn't be the government's position to tell businesses exactly what benefits they have to offer, what kind of healthcare packages they have to provide.


So, by that logic, a company owned by Christian Scientists should be allowed to deny coverage to their non-CS employees for blood transfusions. You're OK with that?
 
2012-12-28 04:29:47 PM  

Bontesla: o5iiawah: The My Little Pony Killer: Maybe they should become a church if they want to have church rules.

Or maybe they should be a private company, one of those places where you can choose on your own whether or not to shop there or work there.

dafuq did I just read?


You read a smattering of the idiotic theory of "free market" logic as told by a slave.
 
2012-12-28 04:29:57 PM  
Insurance is often a part of your remuneration. An employer should have as much choice over its content as they should over what you spend your wage on. Even the idea that they have any idea of its content is bizarre to me, as a non-American. If you have to have this weird system in the US where you healthcare is usually tied to your employment, at least have an iron curtain between them.
 
2012-12-28 04:30:19 PM  

Skirl Hutsenreiter: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: ghare: I just spent $40 at Sam Flax instead of Hobby Lobby because of this. Tried to email them a pic of my receipt, but for some reason there doesn't appear o be a link to email them with comments on their website.

That 40 bucks is going to push them right over the edge.

Boycotting them is kind of counter productive. If enough people did that (they won't), it would have more of a negative impact on the employees, then it would the company. Sales are down, you lay off people.

Agreed. Instead of just boycotting, why not print up some facts about Hobby Lobby and birth control and slip them onto shelves.


Because I don't care THAT much. But when I buy art supplies, there are alternatives to Hobby Lobby. So I'll shop at the other places. And I do buy a fair amount of art stuff.
 
2012-12-28 04:30:37 PM  

Bhruic: $10 says that this exact argument, or words to that affect, were used against the idea of making slavery illegal.


You'd win that bet. The southern baptist church split off from the main baptist church specifically on the issue of biblical justification/endorsement of slavery.
 
2012-12-28 04:30:39 PM  

cwolf20: On an unrelated note.

Owner with 6 employees figured up the math on providing insurance for the first time to his employees.

It'll be cheaper for him to take a 350 dollar hit per employee including himself and wife. Which wouldn't be an issue except she's never worked there. But the state government told him she always has. Meanwhile the employees will go forth and get Obama care.


I sell health insurance. Took a few classes on Obamacare. The company I work for works with five different health insurance companies. Some are well known, others aren't. When it comes to health insurance, they pretty much all cost about the same. I offer my clients two health insurance packages. The Obamacare package and the non-Obamacare package. I also explain "For a married couple, the Obamacare package is going to run you about $8,000/year. The non-Obamacare package is half that. But you also have to pay the fine for not having it. If you rarely go to the doctor and are generally healthy, take the non-Obamacare package, it is the cheaper way to go."

Of course, I we've already been told that we're going to take a cut in commissions due Health Care reform and that we'd be better off focusing more on the Life Insurance for 2013.
 
2012-12-28 04:31:16 PM  
"Our family is now being forced to choose between following the laws of the land that we love or maintaining the religious beliefs that have made our business successful and supported our family and thousands of our employees and their families," Green said in September. "We simply cannot abandon our religious beliefs to comply with this mandate."

Well pilgrim, get to pilgrimming.
 
2012-12-28 04:32:08 PM  

Bontesla:
Oh my god, you're a riot!
Can you do a bit about welfare now?


No
 
2012-12-28 04:32:37 PM  
My religion says hard hats and steel toed boots are the mark of Satan, therefore my employees are exempt from OSHA regulations.
 
2012-12-28 04:33:08 PM  
Fact that businesses are forced to provide health insurance in the first place is just awful.
 
2012-12-28 04:33:16 PM  

Great Janitor: I really can't hate them for saying that they don't want to offer coverage that goes against their beliefs. They aren't saying that they don't want their female employees not to be on the pill or whatever, just that they don't want to offer those programs. If their employees don't like it, they can find work else where. It shouldn't be the government's position to tell businesses exactly what benefits they have to offer, what kind of healthcare packages they have to provide.


Why should your employer's religious preferences be imposed on the standard of insurance you can receive?

Other than offering insurance - the business has no business in my medical business.
 
2012-12-28 04:33:18 PM  

Bontesla: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: ghare: I just spent $40 at Sam Flax instead of Hobby Lobby because of this. Tried to email them a pic of my receipt, but for some reason there doesn't appear o be a link to email them with comments on their website.

That 40 bucks is going to push them right over the edge.

Boycotting them is kind of counter productive. If enough people did that (they won't), it would have more of a negative impact on the employees, then it would the company. Sales are down, you lay off people.

That's assuming you've quit your hobby instead of taking your business elsewhere. Why would you quit your hobby?


Wal*Martization. I don't know exactly how big these guys are as a chain, but I could imagine a scenario where the big guy rolls into town, puts the small hobby shop(s) out of business and becomes the only game within 50 mi.
 
2012-12-28 04:33:30 PM  

ElwoodCuse: Actually, you do if you're a church.


If you are referring to taxes, that exemption is based on being a non-profit organization. it applies to secular organizations also. So it isn't an exemption based on religious belief.

Other than that, I'm not sure what you might be referring to.
 
2012-12-28 04:34:31 PM  
The Greens should shove some Chic-Fil-A up their asses and STFU.

Honestly, I'm sick of these fundies who own corporations thinking they can act like their business is a branch of their church. It's not, and your employees are not your congregation.

Honestly, screw these people.
 
2012-12-28 04:35:25 PM  

ProfessorOhki: Bontesla: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: ghare: I just spent $40 at Sam Flax instead of Hobby Lobby because of this. Tried to email them a pic of my receipt, but for some reason there doesn't appear o be a link to email them with comments on their website.

That 40 bucks is going to push them right over the edge.

Boycotting them is kind of counter productive. If enough people did that (they won't), it would have more of a negative impact on the employees, then it would the company. Sales are down, you lay off people.

That's assuming you've quit your hobby instead of taking your business elsewhere. Why would you quit your hobby?

Wal*Martization. I don't know exactly how big these guys are as a chain, but I could imagine a scenario where the big guy rolls into town, puts the small hobby shop(s) out of business and becomes the only game within 50 mi.


There's this thing called "the intarwebs." You can order stuff from it. I rarely have an emergency need to have art supplies RIGHT NOW.
 
2012-12-28 04:36:33 PM  
When I was a kid and saw a store with the name "Hobby" in it I knew that it sold, model planes, trains, Estes rockets etc. You know...fun stuff.
That meaning of that word has been faded by Hobby Lobby. Scrap booking? A hobby?

I much more enjoyed the "Hobbiest" term used in the Suzy Favor Hamilton story.
 
2012-12-28 04:36:34 PM  

ThrobblefootSpectre: ElwoodCuse: Actually, you do if you're a church.

If you are referring to taxes, that exemption is based on being a non-profit organization. it applies to secular organizations also. So it isn't an exemption based on religious belief.

Other than that, I'm not sure what you might be referring to.


The law Hobby Lobby is biatching about has an exemption for religious organizations. Religious organizations gets similar exemptions from discrimination laws (like when a Catholic school is allowed to fire a teacher because she got pregnant but is unmarried). Hobby Lobby sued because they claimed they should get an exemption because of their religious beliefs. However, the exemption isn't for businesses, and they are a business.
 
2012-12-28 04:36:52 PM  
What's funny is how the more liberal among us think this doesn't affect them.

cmb53208: What makes fundies such awful pieces of shiat?


Is that what CNN and John Stewart told you to think?
 
2012-12-28 04:37:09 PM  
Why don't fundamentalists have sex while standing up? They don't want anyone to think they are dancing.
 
2012-12-28 04:38:26 PM  
Whatever. Let the fines begin.
 
2012-12-28 04:38:31 PM  
i123.photobucket.comView Full Size


How am I the first?
 
2012-12-28 04:38:59 PM  

Romeo_Santana: What's funny is how the more liberal among us think this doesn't affect them. cmb53208: What makes fundies such awful pieces of shiat?

Is that what CNN and John Stewart told you to think?


Exactly what point is it you're trying to make? I mean, I know your point is "HURR DURRR LIBS SO STUPID!" but what logical statement are you trying to make? That libs aren't going to like a law that they like once they find out it does things they like?
 
2012-12-28 04:38:59 PM  

Thunderpipes: Fact that businesses are forced to provide health insurance in the first place is just awful.


American blood was spilled to get health insurance by employers, ya know. I would guess that you're only interested in the blood that some foreign-born Jewish carpenter spilled a couple thousand years ago... allegedly.
 
2012-12-28 04:39:40 PM  

ProfessorOhki: Bontesla: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: ghare: I just spent $40 at Sam Flax instead of Hobby Lobby because of this. Tried to email them a pic of my receipt, but for some reason there doesn't appear o be a link to email them with comments on their website.

That 40 bucks is going to push them right over the edge.

Boycotting them is kind of counter productive. If enough people did that (they won't), it would have more of a negative impact on the employees, then it would the company. Sales are down, you lay off people.

That's assuming you've quit your hobby instead of taking your business elsewhere. Why would you quit your hobby?

Wal*Martization. I don't know exactly how big these guys are as a chain, but I could imagine a scenario where the big guy rolls into town, puts the small hobby shop(s) out of business and becomes the only game within 50 mi.


I agree that the Hobby Lobby may be the only place near you - especially for smaller towns. I'd buy online. Hell, enough local residents buy online and another retailer may see an opportunity?
 
2012-12-28 04:40:06 PM  

ElwoodCuse: The law Hobby Lobby is biatching about has an exemption for religious organizations.


Is it an exemption for non-profits? Or an exemption based on religious beliefs?

I'm having a difficult time accepting your statement at face value. Though dumber things have happened, I suppose.
 
2012-12-28 04:40:34 PM  

NightOwl2255: Di Atribe: Hey, why not just follow your employees home to make sure they're not farking for fun?

Hey, don't put that past the Green family. They are, how shall we say, true holy rollers. Of course they live like billionaires, not humble servants of god (that would be their many minimum wage slaves), but you gotta draw the line somewhere, right?


I grew up in what could be deemed a "holy roller" household. I never once heard contraception demonized or called un-holy. It seems to me that business owners who pull this sort of shiat are basically trying to show off how Christian they are.

Whatever. My religion dictates that I sleep until 10am every morning. Now I'm going to make everyone do it because to me, it's the only moral thing to do.
 
2012-12-28 04:40:47 PM  

Thunderpipes: Fact that businesses are forced to provide health insurance in the first place is just awful.


If you have insurance through your job, you're a damned hypocrite.

If you think it's horrible that they are forced to provide it, show your principles by refusing to accept it.

Then maybe you have some ground to stand on.
 
2012-12-28 04:41:03 PM  

Dinjiin: If we had a single payer system were the federal or state governments offered the plans, this wouldn't be an issue.  Companies wouldn't have any direct part in healthcare compensation.  A lot of smaller companies would have preferred such a system so they don't have to be involved in the healthcare cluserfark.

Instead, we have our current mess.  Thanks Congress.


Why does Congress insist on keeping this job-killing health care tax on our job-creating companies?
 
2012-12-28 04:41:38 PM  

Nabb1: KiTTeNs_on_AciD: This will end well for them. Everyone knows the gays just abhor arts & crafts. No way this could possibly hurt their business more than covering birth control.

I'd think gays would be ambivalent about birth control since they really don't need it to prevent pregnancy.


Ambivalent about birth control maybe, not about evangelicals using religion as an excuse to involve themselves in the private lives of their employees. As it turns out, they have personal experience dealing with similar situations and are capable of empathy.
 
2012-12-28 04:41:46 PM  

Romeo_Santana: Is that what CNN and John Stewart told you to think?


It's Jon, you farkin dumb ass. I guess it's not important in the bubble you live in.
 
2012-12-28 04:41:51 PM  
If they want to operate as a business, then they need to follow the rules for businesses not a private membership church.

I don't think a company owned by Jehovah' s Witnesses can require that their employer sponsored insurance denies a patient a kidney transplant.

It's f*cked up that health insurance comes from your employer anyway. Aside from damage sustained on the job, it's none of your boss's business what you need from your doctor.
 
2012-12-28 04:42:46 PM  

Bontesla: imtheonlylp: ok, here goes..

if you don't like it, then find another job...it's not mandatory that you believe what they do nor is it mandatory that you are employed there...

Your logic:
1). Law is created to protect employees.
2). Employer violates law.
3). Punish employee.


don't really think they're "punishing" anyone...employees are welcome to get their own insurance wherever they please...

My logic:
1) You don't agree with a business or their ethics or even their stance on any issue.
2) Don't work there and don't shop there.
3) Problem solved.
 
2012-12-28 04:43:02 PM  

WhoopAssWayne: Convenience abortions should be prosecuted as first degree murder.

Go ahead idiot liberals - open up this can of worms of pushing your beliefs on others through Obamacare and see what kind of a country we end up with. Because it won't take long for the ball to be in the other court, and I have a feeling the next republican president will make G W Bush look like Mahatma Gandhi, and then you dumbasses will really have something to cry about.


lh3.ggpht.comView Full Size


Retards are so cute.
 
2012-12-28 04:43:18 PM  
Nabb1 [TotalFark]

Maybe he has worthless employees who spend too much time on FARK instead of working hard and increasing productivity.


If I ever work there I'm sure I'll be considered one of them. I'm happy with the insurance the payroll company I work for provides.
 
2012-12-28 04:44:09 PM  

Nabb1: I'd think gays would be ambivalent about birth control since they really don't need it to prevent pregnancy.


Really?

As Sandra "Slut" Fluke testified, many women need birth control pills for medical reasons that have nothing to do with having sex or preventing pregnancy. There's also a big benefit to gay men and lesbians in using contraceptives such as condoms or dental dams. They prevent the spread of STDs and HIV, even among same-sex couples who aren't worried about pregnancy.
 
2012-12-28 04:44:22 PM  

KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.


Oh GREAT Idea! No one should have to pay any tax to support anything they don't agree with! Man, I am going to save a TON this year!
 
2012-12-28 04:44:27 PM  

cwolf20: On an unrelated note.

Owner with 6 employees figured up the math on providing insurance for the first time to his employees.

It'll be cheaper for him to take a 350 dollar hit per employee including himself and wife. Which wouldn't be an issue except she's never worked there. But the state government told him she always has. Meanwhile the employees will go forth and get Obama care.


I believe the only part of this story that isn't completely made up is the word "with".
 
2012-12-28 04:44:47 PM  

ghare: ProfessorOhki: Bontesla: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: ghare: I just spent $40 at Sam Flax instead of Hobby Lobby because of this. Tried to email them a pic of my receipt, but for some reason there doesn't appear o be a link to email them with comments on their website.

That 40 bucks is going to push them right over the edge.

Boycotting them is kind of counter productive. If enough people did that (they won't), it would have more of a negative impact on the employees, then it would the company. Sales are down, you lay off people.

That's assuming you've quit your hobby instead of taking your business elsewhere. Why would you quit your hobby?

Wal*Martization. I don't know exactly how big these guys are as a chain, but I could imagine a scenario where the big guy rolls into town, puts the small hobby shop(s) out of business and becomes the only game within 50 mi.

There's this thing called "the intarwebs." You can order stuff from it. I rarely have an emergency need to have art supplies RIGHT NOW.


Look at what I was replying to; I was referring to the [regional] loss of jobs and sales, not some unavailability of hobby supplies.
 
2012-12-28 04:45:03 PM  

vpb: It's kind of a silly argument. Health care is part of the compensation package. You might as well argue that you should be able to pay with scrip so you can make sure that employees don't buy rubbers with money the company pays them.


Even sillier -- prescription birth control tends to cost less than most people's prescription drug copay.
 
2012-12-28 04:45:10 PM  

KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.


Contraceptives are cheaper then babies
 
2012-12-28 04:45:32 PM  

Bonzo_1116: If they want to operate as a business, then they need to follow the rules for businesses not a private membership church.


This is the root of the problem right here. The first amendment protects a religion's right to practice religion. Things get stickier when religion attempts to do more than just practice religion. Who owns it and who runs it should be irrelevant. All businesses should be run the same and should follow the same rules.
 
2012-12-28 04:45:46 PM  

Bontesla: Great Janitor: I really can't hate them for saying that they don't want to offer coverage that goes against their beliefs. They aren't saying that they don't want their female employees not to be on the pill or whatever, just that they don't want to offer those programs. If their employees don't like it, they can find work else where. It shouldn't be the government's position to tell businesses exactly what benefits they have to offer, what kind of healthcare packages they have to provide.

Why should your employer's religious preferences be imposed on the standard of insurance you can receive?

Other than offering insurance - the business has no business in my medical business.


Because they are paying for it.
 
2012-12-28 04:45:53 PM  
containsmoderateperil.comView Full Size

Knows a thing or two about hobbies.
 
2012-12-28 04:46:44 PM  

ProfessorOhki: ghare: ProfessorOhki: Bontesla: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: ghare: I just spent $40 at Sam Flax instead of Hobby Lobby because of this. Tried to email them a pic of my receipt, but for some reason there doesn't appear o be a link to email them with comments on their website.

That 40 bucks is going to push them right over the edge.

Boycotting them is kind of counter productive. If enough people did that (they won't), it would have more of a negative impact on the employees, then it would the company. Sales are down, you lay off people.

That's assuming you've quit your hobby instead of taking your business elsewhere. Why would you quit your hobby?

Wal*Martization. I don't know exactly how big these guys are as a chain, but I could imagine a scenario where the big guy rolls into town, puts the small hobby shop(s) out of business and becomes the only game within 50 mi.

There's this thing called "the intarwebs." You can order stuff from it. I rarely have an emergency need to have art supplies RIGHT NOW.

Look at what I was replying to; I was referring to the [regional] loss of jobs and sales, not some unavailability of hobby supplies.


Hobby Lobby doesn't make a hobby of opening stores in towns of 2000. In regions where Hobby Lobby operates, big box stores do not create jobs. Rather, they cannibalize existing jobs from existing businesses. Boycotting Hobby Lobby will not affect net employment in a region, at all.
 
2012-12-28 04:46:49 PM  

Di Atribe: My religion dictates that I sleep until 10am every morning.


They make you get up that early? Shiat, do you have to whip yourself like in that movie, too?
 
2012-12-28 04:46:55 PM  
Thanks for letting us know where you stand on this, Hobby Lobby.

In the court of my opinion, you've been found guilty trying to force your religious beliefs on others and therefore are no longer a consideration when I need anything you sell. I will buy my supplies from someone else.
 
2012-12-28 04:47:28 PM  

KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.


Uhm your health insurance costs Do go up because employers weren't forced to cover things like contraception. Who do you think eats those costs when an uninsured mother gives birth?
 
2012-12-28 04:47:29 PM  

Great Janitor: Bontesla: Great Janitor: I really can't hate them for saying that they don't want to offer coverage that goes against their beliefs. They aren't saying that they don't want their female employees not to be on the pill or whatever, just that they don't want to offer those programs. If their employees don't like it, they can find work else where. It shouldn't be the government's position to tell businesses exactly what benefits they have to offer, what kind of healthcare packages they have to provide.

Why should your employer's religious preferences be imposed on the standard of insurance you can receive?

Other than offering insurance - the business has no business in my medical business.

Because they are paying for it.


Well, then, they obviously have the right to restrict what employees do with their paychecks too.
 
2012-12-28 04:47:40 PM  

KiTTeNs_on_AciD: Nabb1: KiTTeNs_on_AciD: This will end well for them. Everyone knows the gays just abhor arts & crafts. No way this could possibly hurt their business more than covering birth control.

I'd think gays would be ambivalent about birth control since they really don't need it to prevent pregnancy.

Ambivalent about birth control maybe, not about evangelicals using religion as an excuse to involve themselves in the private lives of their employees. As it turns out, they have personal experience dealing with similar situations and are capable of empathy.


Perhaps that joke was a bit too dry to be effective.
 
2012-12-28 04:47:55 PM  
As usual, fundies get to pick and choose which parts of the Bible are the literal words of God which may not ever be disobeyed and which are just filler between all the begatting and stoning of adulterous whores.

Romans 13:1-14 (New International Version)

13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
Seems pretty clear to me. But then, I tend to take these sorts of things literally.
 
2012-12-28 04:48:56 PM  
Eh, if the employees have a problem with this, they should quit. It's just that simple.
 
2012-12-28 04:49:14 PM  

The Why Not Guy: Nabb1: I'd think gays would be ambivalent about birth control since they really don't need it to prevent pregnancy.

Really?

As Sandra "Slut" Fluke testified, many women need birth control pills for medical reasons that have nothing to do with having sex or preventing pregnancy. There's also a big benefit to gay men and lesbians in using contraceptives such as condoms or dental dams. They prevent the spread of STDs and HIV, even among same-sex couples who aren't worried about pregnancy.


Failed attempt at dry humor.  Disregard.
 
2012-12-28 04:49:16 PM  
To oppose abortions (and the welfare system in general) as much as they do, it always surprised me how adamant they also are against contraceptives.

Just like the Republicans they voted for, 'compromise' must no longer be a part of their vocabulary.
 
2012-12-28 04:49:21 PM  
What was the name of the religious leader who commanded his followers to cure the sick?

Oh right, is was Jesus.

But fundies only read the part of the bible that has smiting and abominations... they skip over the parts that say "feed and clothe the poor", "cure the sick", and "love one another". And especially the parts that say to give away your riches and pray in private. They NEVER read those parts.
 
2012-12-28 04:49:41 PM  

NewWorldDan: Eh, if the employees have a problem with this, they should quit. It's just that simple.


Eh, if the employer has a problem with following federal laws regarding businesses, they should just close up shop. It's that simple.
 
2012-12-28 04:50:02 PM  

ZeroCorpse: The Greens should shove some Chic-Fil-A up their asses and STFU.

Honestly, I'm sick of these fundies who own corporations thinking they can act like their business is a branch of their church. It's not, and your employees are not your congregation.

Honestly, screw these people.


It's their business, they should be allowed to run it how they want. It was formed from their own biblical beliefs. If they choose to pay the fines instead of complying with the law, good on them.
 
2012-12-28 04:50:14 PM  

vernonFL: Do you see that? Its a modern reflector on an Amish buggy. The Amish did not want to put modern reflectors on their buggies, but the law says they have to.


Only if they use the same roads that everyone else does. On private land, they don't have to.
 
2012-12-28 04:50:45 PM  
I

poot_rootbeer: cwolf20


If it is false. Man what was I not drinking on December 27, 2012 night at a holiday inn business seminar
 
2012-12-28 04:50:49 PM  

Romeo_Santana: What's funny is how the more liberal among us think this doesn't affect them. cmb53208: What makes fundies such awful pieces of shiat?

Is that what CNN and John Stewart told you to think?


I do my own thinking asswipe. Now tell me what fundies are good for since they're anti-freedom, anti-choice, anti-knowledge, and anti-fun? These people are scum.
 
2012-12-28 04:51:28 PM  
HOTY winner!
 
2012-12-28 04:51:46 PM  

imtheonlylp: Bontesla: imtheonlylp: ok, here goes..

if you don't like it, then find another job...it's not mandatory that you believe what they do nor is it mandatory that you are employed there...

Your logic:
1). Law is created to protect employees.
2). Employer violates law.
3). Punish employee.

don't really think they're "punishing" anyone...employees are welcome to get their own insurance wherever they please...

My logic:
1) You don't agree with a business or their ethics or even their stance on any issue.
2) Don't work there and don't shop there.
3) Problem solved.


That's not actual logic. Your conclusion isn't a deduction made from your premises. It's not even inductive logic.

And if you don't think that the loss of work isn't a punishment for employees at the Hobby Lobby then you might just pass as a Romney son.
 
2012-12-28 04:52:16 PM  

ghare: ProfessorOhki: ghare: ProfessorOhki: Bontesla: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: ghare: I just spent $40 at Sam Flax instead of Hobby Lobby because of this. Tried to email them a pic of my receipt, but for some reason there doesn't appear o be a link to email them with comments on their website.

That 40 bucks is going to push them right over the edge.

Boycotting them is kind of counter productive. If enough people did that (they won't), it would have more of a negative impact on the employees, then it would the company. Sales are down, you lay off people.

That's assuming you've quit your hobby instead of taking your business elsewhere. Why would you quit your hobby?

Wal*Martization. I don't know exactly how big these guys are as a chain, but I could imagine a scenario where the big guy rolls into town, puts the small hobby shop(s) out of business and becomes the only game within 50 mi.

There's this thing called "the intarwebs." You can order stuff from it. I rarely have an emergency need to have art supplies RIGHT NOW.

Look at what I was replying to; I was referring to the [regional] loss of jobs and sales, not some unavailability of hobby supplies.

Hobby Lobby doesn't make a hobby of opening stores in towns of 2000. In regions where Hobby Lobby operates, big box stores do not create jobs. Rather, they cannibalize existing jobs from existing businesses. Boycotting Hobby Lobby will not affect net employment in a region, at all.


Creating jobs or not is irrelevant to the question. It's what would happen to those employees if they left that is the question. If the businesses they drew them from were cannibalized, you would have people and no matching job openings. Also, if an overall decrease in local spending, local sales tax and all that would have any economic impact. I really doubt it would be an issue, but that's what we were examining.
 
2012-12-28 04:53:31 PM  

KidneyStone: the_end_is_rear: KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.

Contraceptives are cheaper then babies

Personal responsibility is free

/and may as well be a unicorn these days


?? People want contraceptives to prevent unwanted pregnancies, they try to go to their doctor to get them (acting responsibly) but find their EMPLOYER has interfered with them trying to act responsibly, and you think this is good?

Ahh, the Modern Republican: willfully, insistently stupid, and proud of it.
 
2012-12-28 04:54:13 PM  

NewWorldDan: Eh, if the employees have a problem with this, they should quit. It's just that simple.


It's law, though. Not opinion.

They can voice their opinion against the law. They can lobby against the law. They can vote for representatives who promise to get rid of the law. But they can't unilaterally consider themselves exempt from the law , without serious consequences.
 
2012-12-28 04:54:21 PM  

Great Janitor: cwolf20: On an unrelated note.

Owner with 6 employees figured up the math on providing insurance for the first time to his employees.

It'll be cheaper for him to take a 350 dollar hit per employee including himself and wife. Which wouldn't be an issue except she's never worked there. But the state government told him she always has. Meanwhile the employees will go forth and get Obama care.

I sell health insurance. Took a few classes on Obamacare. The company I work for works with five different health insurance companies. Some are well known, others aren't. When it comes to health insurance, they pretty much all cost about the same. I offer my clients two health insurance packages. The Obamacare package and the non-Obamacare package. I also explain "For a married couple, the Obamacare package is going to run you about $8,000/year. The non-Obamacare package is half that. But you also have to pay the fine for not having it. If you rarely go to the doctor and are generally healthy, take the non-Obamacare package, it is the cheaper way to go."

Of course, I we've already been told that we're going to take a cut in commissions due Health Care reform and that we'd be better off focusing more on the Life Insurance for 2013.


You sell insurance and yet have no idea what Obamacare is, or how underwriting works. You're a hoot.
 
2012-12-28 04:55:43 PM  
I an curious. Do these companies that are complaining about health insurance covering birth control have special exemptions for the pill in their current policy, or do they just not provide health insurance to their employees?
 
2012-12-28 04:55:50 PM  

Great Janitor: Bontesla: Great Janitor: I really can't hate them for saying that they don't want to offer coverage that goes against their beliefs. They aren't saying that they don't want their female employees not to be on the pill or whatever, just that they don't want to offer those programs. If their employees don't like it, they can find work else where. It shouldn't be the government's position to tell businesses exactly what benefits they have to offer, what kind of healthcare packages they have to provide.

Why should your employer's religious preferences be imposed on the standard of insurance you can receive?

Other than offering insurance - the business has no business in my medical business.

Because they are paying for it.


As they're paying wages. It's part of your compensation. Your employer cannot tell you how to use your compensation.
 
2012-12-28 04:57:03 PM  

ghare: Great Janitor: Bontesla: Great Janitor: I really can't hate them for saying that they don't want to offer coverage that goes against their beliefs. They aren't saying that they don't want their female employees not to be on the pill or whatever, just that they don't want to offer those programs. If their employees don't like it, they can find work else where. It shouldn't be the government's position to tell businesses exactly what benefits they have to offer, what kind of healthcare packages they have to provide.

Why should your employer's religious preferences be imposed on the standard of insurance you can receive?

Other than offering insurance - the business has no business in my medical business.

Because they are paying for it.

Well, then, they obviously have the right to restrict what employees do with their paychecks too.


Wrong. Employers have no rights to tell employees what to do with the paychecks. Since that's payment for time spent making the company money. The part about health insurance is different because it's not payment for services.
 
2012-12-28 04:57:11 PM  

Great Janitor: The non-Obamacare package is half that. But you also have to pay the fine for not having it. If you rarely go to the doctor and are generally healthy, take the non-Obamacare package, it is the cheaper way to go."


The implication there seems to be that the non-Obamacare package doesn't do much.
 
2012-12-28 04:57:34 PM  

Beavz0r: To oppose abortions (and the welfare system in general) as much as they do, it always surprised me how adamant they also are against contraceptives.

Just like the Republicans they voted for, 'compromise' must no longer be a part of their vocabulary.


They are against sex in just about any form except between a man and a woman who are together married and only for the purpose of procreation.
 
2012-12-28 04:58:01 PM  

ProfessorOhki: ghare: ProfessorOhki: ghare: ProfessorOhki: Bontesla: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: ghare: I just spent $40 at Sam Flax instead of Hobby Lobby because of this. Tried to email them a pic of my receipt, but for some reason there doesn't appear o be a link to email them with comments on their website.

That 40 bucks is going to push them right over the edge.

Boycotting them is kind of counter productive. If enough people did that (they won't), it would have more of a negative impact on the employees, then it would the company. Sales are down, you lay off people.

That's assuming you've quit your hobby instead of taking your business elsewhere. Why would you quit your hobby?

Wal*Martization. I don't know exactly how big these guys are as a chain, but I could imagine a scenario where the big guy rolls into town, puts the small hobby shop(s) out of business and becomes the only game within 50 mi.

There's this thing called "the intarwebs." You can order stuff from it. I rarely have an emergency need to have art supplies RIGHT NOW.

Look at what I was replying to; I was referring to the [regional] loss of jobs and sales, not some unavailability of hobby supplies.

Hobby Lobby doesn't make a hobby of opening stores in towns of 2000. In regions where Hobby Lobby operates, big box stores do not create jobs. Rather, they cannibalize existing jobs from existing businesses. Boycotting Hobby Lobby will not affect net employment in a region, at all.

Creating jobs or not is irrelevant to the question. It's what would happen to those employees if they left that is the question. If the businesses they drew them from were cannibalized, you would have people and no matching job openings. Also, if an overall decrease in local spending, local sales tax and all that would have any economic impact. I really doubt it would be an issue, but that's what we were examining.


If they leave the position, they will find another job, one would assume. If Hobby Lobby closes due to a drop in sales, due to them being perceived by the public as douchebags, then another art store will move in to take their place, and they will hire basically the same number of employees as Hobby Lobby did.
 
2012-12-28 04:58:28 PM  

Internet Meme Rogers: Great Janitor: cwolf20: On an unrelated note.

Owner with 6 employees figured up the math on providing insurance for the first time to his employees.

It'll be cheaper for him to take a 350 dollar hit per employee including himself and wife. Which wouldn't be an issue except she's never worked there. But the state government told him she always has. Meanwhile the employees will go forth and get Obama care.

I sell health insurance. Took a few classes on Obamacare. The company I work for works with five different health insurance companies. Some are well known, others aren't. When it comes to health insurance, they pretty much all cost about the same. I offer my clients two health insurance packages. The Obamacare package and the non-Obamacare package. I also explain "For a married couple, the Obamacare package is going to run you about $8,000/year. The non-Obamacare package is half that. But you also have to pay the fine for not having it. If you rarely go to the doctor and are generally healthy, take the non-Obamacare package, it is the cheaper way to go."

Of course, I we've already been told that we're going to take a cut in commissions due Health Care reform and that we'd be better off focusing more on the Life Insurance for 2013.

You sell insurance and yet have no idea what Obamacare is, or how underwriting works. You're a hoot.


Okay, tell me the error
 
2012-12-28 04:58:30 PM  

NewWorldDan: Eh, if the employees have a problem with this, they should quit. It's just that simple.


If employers have a problem following constituonal law then they should be prevented from operating until they can operate their business in accordance with our laws.
It's just that simple.
 
2012-12-28 04:58:35 PM  

ghare: KidneyStone: the_end_is_rear: KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.

Contraceptives are cheaper then babies

Personal responsibility is free

/and may as well be a unicorn these days

?? People want contraceptives to prevent unwanted pregnancies, they try to go to their doctor to get them (acting responsibly) but find their EMPLOYER has interfered with them trying to act responsibly, and you think this is good?

Ahh, the Modern Republican: willfully, insistently stupid, and proud of it.


Employer interfered?

What, they stopped Sally from going out and buying stuff?

Employers should not be obligated to provide any health care. What is next, employers have to provide housing?
 
2012-12-28 04:58:43 PM  
So now the State invades religion, and forces some people to pay for abortions against their religious beliefs. Seriously, how is this really different from forcing people to worship a particular religion?
 
2012-12-28 04:59:30 PM  

NewWorldDan: Eh, if the employees have a problem with this, they should quit. It's just that simple.


So I'm going to have to grill all my future employers on their religious beliefs to make sure their healthcare plan isn't filled with stupid? That will be fun.
 
2012-12-28 04:59:46 PM  

clyph: What was the name of the religious leader who commanded his followers to cure the sick?

Oh right, is was Jesus.


Are you saying that being pregnant is a sickness?

/the only cure is more cowbell.
 
2012-12-28 04:59:59 PM  
The Japanese live much longer than we do and have a much better health care system. Need to see a doctor? Walk into any doctor's office, pay a small fee. No insurance, no employer hassles, nothing.
 
2012-12-28 05:00:09 PM  

ThrobblefootSpectre: They can voice their opinion against the law. They can lobby against the law. They can vote for representatives who promise to get rid of the law. But they can't unilaterally consider themselves exempt from the law , without serious consequences.


I seriously hope the DOJ sticks it to Hobby Lobby if they do. A large part of me thinks they won't though, so as not to rile up the right wing. But I seriously hope they stick it to Hobby Lobby, to make an example out of them.
 
2012-12-28 05:00:38 PM  

WhoopAssWayne: I have a feeling the next republican president will make G W Bush look like Mahatma Gandhi


What, long dead? W isn't that old. Seems you don't have faith that the party can expect any electoral success in the next 20-30 years?
 
2012-12-28 05:00:43 PM  

pciszek: Great Janitor: The non-Obamacare package is half that. But you also have to pay the fine for not having it. If you rarely go to the doctor and are generally healthy, take the non-Obamacare package, it is the cheaper way to go."

The implication there seems to be that the non-Obamacare package doesn't do much.


higher deductibles, larger co-pays, not as much is covered, more out of pocket if you get hurt or sick.
 
2012-12-28 05:00:58 PM  

Beavz0r: To oppose abortions (and the welfare system in general) as much as they do, it always surprised me how adamant they also are against contraceptives.

Just like the Republicans they voted for, 'compromise' must no longer be a part of their vocabulary.


Ok, I'll bite. What compromise to you propose in this situation?
 
2012-12-28 05:01:25 PM  

Whole Wheat: ZeroCorpse: The Greens should shove some Chic-Fil-A up their asses and STFU.

Honestly, I'm sick of these fundies who own corporations thinking they can act like their business is a branch of their church. It's not, and your employees are not your congregation.

Honestly, screw these people.

It's their business, they should be allowed to run it how they want. It was formed from their own biblical beliefs. If they choose to pay the fines instead of complying with the law, good on them.


Lol Except there's a reason why women aren't allowed to be paid less than their male counterparts for the same job. Even if your religion thinks women are poo-poo heads.
 
2012-12-28 05:01:27 PM  

the_end_is_rear: When I was a kid and saw a store with the name "Hobby" in it I knew that it sold, model planes, trains, Estes rockets etc. You know...fun stuff.
That meaning of that word has been faded by Hobby Lobby. Scrap booking? A hobby?

I much more enjoyed the "Hobbiest" term used in the Suzy Favor Hamilton story.


They do carry some model kits and estes rockets. But the artsy-crafty crap is by far the bulk of the place.
 
2012-12-28 05:02:20 PM  

KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.


Insurance that pays for contraception is cheaper than insurance that doesn't, and has to pay to deliver an unwanted baby, then maintain it's health for years, and years.  How do you not understand this.  A rubber costs a couple of bucks.  How much does it cost to bring a baby to term, you dolt?
 
2012-12-28 05:02:33 PM  

WhoopAssWayne: Convenience abortions should be prosecuted as first degree murder.

Go ahead idiot liberals - open up this can of worms of pushing your beliefs on others through Obamacare and see what kind of a country we end up with. Because it won't take long for the ball to be in the other court, and I have a feeling the next republican president will make G W Bush look like Mahatma Gandhi, and then you dumbasses will really have something to cry about.


I don't think the United States is the right country for you. Look into Nicaragua or El Salvador. They may be more to your liking.
 
2012-12-28 05:02:48 PM  

Great Janitor: It shouldn't be the government's position to tell businesses exactly what benefits they have to offer, what kind of healthcare packages they have to provide.


You mean "benefits" like minimum wage, a healthy & safe workplace, overtime pay, child labor laws, etc? Yeah, who needs big bad gubmint telling employers what to do, right?
 
2012-12-28 05:03:10 PM  

KidneyStone: Bontesla: KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.

Uhm your health insurance costs Do go up because employers weren't forced to cover things like contraception. Who do you think eats those costs when an uninsured mother gives birth?

Uhm, the doctor/hospital, not the insurance company.


Wait - you think doctors and hospitals are giving out free medical care? With no compensation? Just for free because... They're notoriously nice?
 
2012-12-28 05:03:44 PM  
It's against my religious beliefs to be held liable for my recklessness or negligence; ergo, you can't force me to violate my religious beliefs by compelling me to pay legal judgments.
 
2012-12-28 05:06:48 PM  
Oklahoma City-based Hobby Lobby to defy federal law requiring contraception coverage for employees, attorney says

/its bad enough that all your crap is made in china, and i have yet to find one, even ONE, item that is made in the USA on your shelves. And i know, my wife shops for things there for her crafts. I've looked. If that wasn't bad enough..now you're telling people how to live and control their sex lives.

/eat a bag of dicks you non USA supporting derp slinging assholes.
 
2012-12-28 05:07:06 PM  

o5iiawah: The My Little Pony Killer: Maybe they should become a church if they want to have church rules.

Or maybe they should be a private company, one of those places where you can choose on your own whether or not to shop there or work there.


Maybe they should go be a company in some other country that doesn't have any farking standards. If they can't deal with making money in a first-world nation, maybe the Central African Republic would suit them better. Or maybe Iran.

Ooh, there's probably a lot of unused land they could set up shop in Afghanistan. That seems like its right up their alley.
 
2012-12-28 05:07:15 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: Maybe they should become a church if they want to have church rules.


ummm....everyone has freedom of religion...not just churches....
 
2012-12-28 05:07:24 PM  

KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.


Your insurance would go up a lot more if they had the babies, what are you complaining about again? How about people who stuff their face with fast food and sugary soda all the time? It's cool with me, but don't make my insurance go up for all the blood pressure meds, cholesterol meds, insulin and diabetes testing supplies needed by people who make poor decisions. Also, I'm sick of paying for these stupid farking scooters they are giving old people who break their ankles, crutches work just fine you slackers! And don't even get me started on the motorized chairs for fat people.
 
2012-12-28 05:07:33 PM  

Great Janitor: ghare: Great Janitor: Bontesla: Great Janitor: I really can't hate them for saying that they don't want to offer coverage that goes against their beliefs. They aren't saying that they don't want their female employees not to be on the pill or whatever, just that they don't want to offer those programs. If their employees don't like it, they can find work else where. It shouldn't be the government's position to tell businesses exactly what benefits they have to offer, what kind of healthcare packages they have to provide.

Why should your employer's religious preferences be imposed on the standard of insurance you can receive?

Other than offering insurance - the business has no business in my medical business.

Because they are paying for it.

Well, then, they obviously have the right to restrict what employees do with their paychecks too.

Wrong. Employers have no rights to tell employees what to do with the paychecks. Since that's payment for time spent making the company money. The part about health insurance is different because it's not payment for services.


Health care is part of your payment. Employers aren't bestowing you with good health care because of your killer dimples.
 
2012-12-28 05:07:50 PM  

you are a puppet: Submitter: you sir, are a mouthful.


That's what she said.
 
2012-12-28 05:07:56 PM  

Great Janitor: I really can't hate them for saying that they don't want to offer coverage that goes against their beliefs. They aren't saying that they don't want their female employees not to be on the pill or whatever, just that they don't want to offer those programs. If their employees don't like it, they can find work else where. It shouldn't be the government's position to tell businesses exactly what benefits they have to offer, what kind of healthcare packages they have to provide.


Stick with custodial work, thinking isn't your strong suit.

Using your logic christian scientists could offer coverage that only consisted of prayer.
 
2012-12-28 05:08:21 PM  
I think there is a point that many here are missing. They have the option to not provide

Bontesla:
Why should your employer's religious preferences be imposed on the standard of insurance you can receive?

Other than offering insurance - the business has no business in my medical business.


I think a point that is being missed here is that they can avoid the fines and the requirements completely by simply not offering insurance at all. Well, the $1.3 million a day non-compliance fees anyway. They will still have to pay the not offering any coverage fees but I'm thinking that might be cheaper than $1.3 million a day.

So, if they want to spend the extra $$$ on a lesser fine by not offering insurance and satisfy their god they can.

It may be a d!ck move but they are a huge corporation what do you expect?
 
2012-12-28 05:08:26 PM  

dr_blasto: WhoopAssWayne: I have a feeling the next republican president will make G W Bush look like Mahatma Gandhi

What, long dead?


No. Short, and bald with a huge honkin' nose.
 
2012-12-28 05:09:19 PM  

NightOwl2255: Di Atribe: Hey, why not just follow your employees home to make sure they're not farking for fun?

Hey, don't put that past the Green family. They are, how shall we say, true holy rollers. Of course they live like billionaires, not humble servants of god (that would be their many minimum wage slaves), but you gotta draw the line somewhere, right?


Their starting wages are not minimum wage, they are a few dollars more.
 
2012-12-28 05:09:27 PM  

Sin_City_Superhero: KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.

Insurance that pays for contraception is cheaper than insurance that doesn't, and has to pay to deliver an unwanted baby, then maintain it's health for years, and years. How do you not understand this. A rubber costs a couple of bucks. How much does it cost to bring a baby to term, you dolt?


Well when you pop the kid out, $3-5000 will cover the room depending on if you're there two or three nights. As for the doctors/nurses, procedures/meds, etc well those are gonna be extra. And don't get me started on the pregnant lady checkups.

So instead of paying $3,000 for the room for two nights, you could just pay for 60 months of birth control if you have no insurance.

/One of these days I'm gonna do all of the math out to see how many months of non insured BC you can get for a single kid, starting from maternal care to popping it out.
 
2012-12-28 05:10:36 PM  

illannoyin: I think a point that is being missed here is that they can avoid the fines and the requirements completely by simply not offering insurance at all.


I don't think they can. IIRC, in Obamacare all businesses above a certain size (full time employees) are required to provide insurance to them. Thus the whole Papa Johns biatching.
 
2012-12-28 05:10:45 PM  

Bonzo_1116: If they want to operate as a business, then they need to follow the rules for businesses not a private membership church.

I don't think a company owned by Jehovah' s Witnesses can require that their employer sponsored insurance denies a patient a kidney transplant.

It's f*cked up that health insurance comes from your employer anyway. Aside from damage sustained on the job, it's none of your boss's business what you need from your doctor.


THIS.

Several good points here! The part about Jehovah's Witnesses is the only thing any judge should need to think about when they consider the Hobby Lobby stance. If a JW owns a business, they can't remove kidney transplants from an employee's coverage. If a hardcore pagan owns a business, they can't choose to only cover holistic treatments, and if a Christian owns a business, they can't choose to omit birth control from the insurance.

However, the final point is what rings true with me. It's STUPID that our country has employers providing health insurance. We should either have insurance/health care because we pay taxes (like every sane country in the world) or we should have a mandatory higher minimum wage and mandatory lower insurance premiums so that everyone can afford to buy decent insurance and still pay for rent, food, and utilities, among other things.

The insurance companies have this country by the balls, and they know it. That's why I don't really believe in the political process-- The corporations make the laws, not the people. If we had any major influence on our laws, then prohibition wouldn't have happened, marijuana would have been legalized ages ago, and laws would exist to make it impossible for pharmaceutical companies to patent medications that improve or preserve human life.

Medicine is not the secret formula to Kentucky Fried Chicken. It's for the benefit of humanity. We should not be making medicine to gain obscene profits from it. We should be making medicine to improve the human condition and make our workforce better, stronger and healthier. THAT'S where the money comes in.

The world is f♥cked up, anyway. The plutocrats are in charge. The corporations own your ass, and at least half of this country will defend them while they screw us. It makes me ill.
 
2012-12-28 05:11:24 PM  

ThrobblefootSpectre: Religious belief does not make you exempt from law that affects everyone.* You do not get to deny health benefits, hide your face for a driver's licence photo, beat your children for having a boyfriend, or smoke weed.


*(Unless your ancestors were here before the U.S. existed and peyote is a historically documented part of your religion.)


false equivalence.   Nobody is forcing people to work for Hobby Lobby.  If they don't like the health benefits offered by HL, they can apply for a job elsewhere.
 
2012-12-28 05:12:21 PM  
Great Janitor: It shouldn't be the government's position to tell businesses exactly what benefits they have to offer, what kind of healthcare packages they have to provide.

Oh, but they can tell me who I can or cannot marry, and prevent me from adopting a child?

Conservatives. Bless their hearts. Please.
 
2012-12-28 05:12:33 PM  

WhoopAssWayne: Go ahead idiot liberals - open up this can of worms of pushing your beliefs on others through Obamacare and see what kind of a country we end up with. Because it won't take long for the ball to be in the other court, and I have a feeling the next republican president will make G W Bush look like Mahatma Gandhi, and then you dumbasses will really have something to cry about.


You're certainly a typical Republican... salivating at prospect of screwing over your fellow Americans.
 
2012-12-28 05:14:34 PM  

The Why Not Guy: Great Janitor: It shouldn't be the government's position to tell businesses exactly what benefits they have to offer, what kind of healthcare packages they have to provide.

Oh, but they can tell me who I can or cannot marry, and prevent me from adopting a child?

Conservatives. Bless their hearts. Please.


I don't think they should tell you who you can or cannot marry, prevent you from adopting a child, or be forced to provide certain fringe benefits.  I don't know where that puts me.
 
2012-12-28 05:14:40 PM  
Golf clap subby. That was a great headline.
 
2012-12-28 05:15:00 PM  

KidneyStone: ghare: KidneyStone: the_end_is_rear: KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.

Contraceptives are cheaper then babies

Personal responsibility is free

/and may as well be a unicorn these days

?? People want contraceptives to prevent unwanted pregnancies, they try to go to their doctor to get them (acting responsibly) but find their EMPLOYER has interfered with them trying to act responsibly, and you think this is good?

Ahh, the Modern Republican: willfully, insistently stupid, and proud of it.

I never said they're not allowed to have them. I never said anything about not paying for a doctor visit. I never said i was even AGAINST contraceptives.

I'm against my healthcare costs going up to pay for contraceptives. And that includes what I use.

Ahh, the Modern Presumptuous Douchebag: Clueless, insistently entitled, and proud of it.

/I'm a Libertarian. Some conservative views without all the bullshiat worrying about who sleeps with who or who prays to whatever they call god


Your health care costs will go up regardless, kitten.

And they go up - often - because uninsured are seeking medical treatment.
 
2012-12-28 05:15:32 PM  
FYI re: Hobby Lobby's CEO, David Green, from Forbes.com: (estimated net worth $4.5 billion)

"Hobby Lobby founder David Green runs one of the biggest Christian companies in the U.S. A preacher's son from a poor background, Green started his business with a $600 loan in 1970; he then opened his first Hobby Lobby arts and crafts stores in Oklahoma City in 1972. The chain now has 520 locations across the country, all of which are closed on Sunday.

Green is a big contributor to evangelical education, with a $10.5 million gift to Jerry Falwell's Liberty University in 2004 and $70 million to bail out Oral Roberts University in 2007. He has also put nearly 1.4 billion copies of gospel literature in homes in more than 100 countries, mostly in Africa and Asia. He joined the Giving Pledge in 2010."

From his letter om the Giving Pledge website: "We honor the Lord in all we do by operating the company in a manner consistent with Biblical principles. From helping orphanages in faraway lands to helping ministries in America, Hobby Lobby has always been a tool for the Lord's work."

See, the guy admits he's a tool who feeds starving orphans tasty, tasty bibles. What's not to love?
 
2012-12-28 05:15:39 PM  

Bontesla: imtheonlylp: ok, here goes..

if you don't like it, then find another job...it's not mandatory that you believe what they do nor is it mandatory that you are employed there...

Your logic:
1). Law is created to protect employees.
2). Employer violates law.
3). Punish employee.


Um...#1 violates the employers right to practice their religion....
 
2012-12-28 05:16:04 PM  
I just sent a message to them via their website.  I asked why Hobby Lobby is so un-American.  Why they don't sell American-made merchandise, why they want to impose their religious views on their staff, and if they'd get bent out of shape if a Muslim-owned company did the same thing.  I don't expect to hear back from them...
 
2012-12-28 05:18:08 PM  

KidneyStone: I never said they're not allowed to have them. I never said anything about not paying for a doctor visit. I never said i was even AGAINST contraceptives.

I'm against my healthcare costs going up to pay for contraceptives. And that includes what I use.

Ahh, the Modern Presumptuous Douchebag: Clueless, insistently entitled, and proud of it.

/I'm a Libertarian. Some conservative views without all the bullshiat worrying about who sleeps with who or who prays to whatever they call


Healthcare costs go down with free contraceptives. Insurance agencies know this. The pill is cheaper than abortion or giving birth.

Even if that wasn't the case the pill and abortions have needs besides "birth control". For a employer to say they can't be part of their plan is no different than saying a type of heart surgery or cancer medication can't be allowed because it is against their beliefs.
 
2012-12-28 05:18:10 PM  

KidneyStone: Thunderpipes: ghare: KidneyStone: the_end_is_rear: KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.

Contraceptives are cheaper then babies

Personal responsibility is free

/and may as well be a unicorn these days

?? People want contraceptives to prevent unwanted pregnancies, they try to go to their doctor to get them (acting responsibly) but find their EMPLOYER has interfered with them trying to act responsibly, and you think this is good?

Ahh, the Modern Republican: willfully, insistently stupid, and proud of it.

Employer interfered?

What, they stopped Sally from going out and buying stuff?

Employers should not be obligated to provide any health care. What is next, employers have to provide housing?

This guy gets what I'm saying.


Is housing part of the employee's compensation package? Then the employer must provide housing that meets the safety standards.
 
2012-12-28 05:18:52 PM  

KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.


It's comments like this that make me wish Fark had a moran button as well as a smart and funny button.
 
2012-12-28 05:19:27 PM  
Once again...

Government: You must do this! It's the law because we say so!

Private Company: We don't want to do that, it violates our personal religious beliefs.

Liberals: Private company! Stop "forcing" your beliefs on your employees!

The only group here using force is the government because its the only thing in this scenario that can even use force but in the twisted and deranged mind of a liberal, somehow it becomes the company forcing things on people that they don't want instead of the government.
 
2012-12-28 05:20:30 PM  

KidneyStone: I'm against my healthcare costs going up to pay for contraceptives. And that includes what I use.


You idiot.  Contraceptives cost LESS than a baby.  The BABY makes the cost go up.  Contraceptives prevent the expensive baby-making, thus costing LESS.  How do you not understand this?
 
2012-12-28 05:20:48 PM  

Di Atribe: Whatever. My religion dictates that I sleep until 10am every morning. Now I'm going to make everyone do it because to me, it's the only moral thing to do.


Heathen! You have to sleep until AT LEAST noon!
 
2012-12-28 05:21:20 PM  
My religion requires me to smoke large amounts of marijuana, maintain a harem of sex slaves and sacrifice live babies every morning to ensure the sun comes up.

And you're trying to tell me the government can't make me obey laws that conflict with my religious beliefs?

What planet do you live on, anyway?
 
2012-12-28 05:21:46 PM  

clyph: My religion says hard hats and steel toed boots are the mark of Satan, therefore my employees are exempt from OSHA regulations.


False equivalence.

OSHA protects workers from hurting themselves and dying.

A morning after pill does nothing to protect a woman's life.
 
2012-12-28 05:22:46 PM  

giftedmadness: NightOwl2255: Di Atribe: Hey, why not just follow your employees home to make sure they're not farking for fun?

Hey, don't put that past the Green family. They are, how shall we say, true holy rollers. Of course they live like billionaires, not humble servants of god (that would be their many minimum wage slaves), but you gotta draw the line somewhere, right?

Their starting wages are not minimum wage, they are a few dollars more.


Not true. I interviewed there once, a few years back, and they made it clear they were going to start me out at minimum if I got the job.
 
2012-12-28 05:23:04 PM  

ThrobblefootSpectre: dr_blasto: WhoopAssWayne: I have a feeling the next republican president will make G W Bush look like Mahatma Gandhi

What, long dead?

No. Short, and bald with a huge honkin' nose.


Wearing little round glasses?
 
2012-12-28 05:23:54 PM  

Sin_City_Superhero: KidneyStone: I'm against my healthcare costs going up to pay for contraceptives. And that includes what I use.

You idiot.  Contraceptives cost LESS than a baby.  The BABY makes the cost go up.  Contraceptives prevent the expensive baby-making, thus costing LESS.  How do you not understand this?


Kidney stones, like babies, are entirely preventable. I resent paying for other peoples' failure to drink enough water.
 
2012-12-28 05:24:27 PM  

Bontesla: Great Janitor: I really can't hate them for saying that they don't want to offer coverage that goes against their beliefs. They aren't saying that they don't want their female employees not to be on the pill or whatever, just that they don't want to offer those programs. If their employees don't like it, they can find work else where. It shouldn't be the government's position to tell businesses exactly what benefits they have to offer, what kind of healthcare packages they have to provide.

Why should your employer's religious preferences be imposed on the standard of insurance you can receive?

Other than offering insurance - the business has no business in my medical business.


Ummm. because they are the ones paying for it......

If you don't like the healthcare they offer, find another job.  What's so hard about that for you to understand?
 
2012-12-28 05:24:38 PM  

KidneyStone: I'm against my healthcare costs going up to pay for contraceptives. And that includes what I use.


So you're against paying for other peoples contraceptives. Fine.

Would you be alright if insurance provided those contraceptives for free at no additional cost to you or others?

What if insurance provided contraceptives to everyone for free and also sent you a check with some extra money every year?

This last one is closest reality. Providing contraceptives reduces insurance costs and insurance providers are required to send you a check every year of the money they did not use. You're the dickhead demanding I pay higher insurance premiums because you want to drive some moral narrative on women. Who the fark are you to drive my insurance costs up?
 
2012-12-28 05:24:44 PM  

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: So now the State invades religion, and forces some people to pay for abortions against their religious beliefs. Seriously, how is this really different from forcing people to worship a particular religion?


Because telling someone the health care they provide to employees must cover standard medications is not the same as forcing them to cease or begin any kind of worship to anyone. If you had to seriously ask that you should immediately stop sharing your opinions on anything.
 
2012-12-28 05:24:52 PM  

giftedmadness: ThrobblefootSpectre: Religious belief does not make you exempt from law that affects everyone.* You do not get to deny health benefits, hide your face for a driver's licence photo, beat your children for having a boyfriend, or smoke weed.


*(Unless your ancestors were here before the U.S. existed and peyote is a historically documented part of your religion.)

false equivalence.   Nobody is forcing people to work for Hobby Lobby.  If they don't like the health benefits offered by HL, they can apply for a job elsewhere.


Nobody is forcing Hobby Lobby to sell their shiat in the United States. If Hobby Lobby doesn't like the US, they can go run their business elsewhere.
 
2012-12-28 05:25:51 PM  

cwolf20: On an unrelated note.

Owner with 6 employees figured up the math on providing insurance for the first time to his employees.

It'll be cheaper for him to take a 350 dollar hit per employee including himself and wife. Which wouldn't be an issue except she's never worked there. But the state government told him she always has. Meanwhile the employees will go forth and get Obama care.

False economy... it might be a tiny bit cheaper in the short term, but in terms of running a good long term business paying a few bucks a month per employee will pay back in spades. If he only had the sense.
 
2012-12-28 05:26:01 PM  

The Why Not Guy: Great Janitor: It shouldn't be the government's position to tell businesses exactly what benefits they have to offer, what kind of healthcare packages they have to provide.

Oh, but they can tell me who I can or cannot marry, and prevent me from adopting a child?

Conservatives. Bless their hearts. Please.


Interestingly enough, I don't think they should have the ability to tell you who to marry or if you can or can not adopt a child.

The role of the government should be small. Making sure we have infrastructure, clean water, a military and police and fire. That's about where it should end. Telling your employer how much you should be paid and what benefits you should or should not get shouldn't be the government's concern. If you work for Company ABC and you think you should make more money and get certain benefits, it shouldn't be the government who forces Company ABC to make those changes. It should be up to you to make the change to get the benefits and pay that you believe that you deserve. If that means changing jobs or acquiring a new job skills set, then make those changes.
 
2012-12-28 05:26:09 PM  

KidneyStone: I'm against my healthcare costs going up to pay for contraceptives. And that includes what I use.

How do you feel about your health care costs going up due to unplanned or unwanted pregnancies?

Birth control costs much much less than prenatal care, delivery with potential complications, postpartum care of the mother and then years of pediatric care.
 
2012-12-28 05:26:24 PM  
As for the potential fines, Duncan said, "We're just going to have to cross that bridge when we come to it."
That's gonna be some fine mother farkin' green bridge.

I see this turning into George Wallace vs the Federal Government in the school integration issue.
 
2012-12-28 05:27:37 PM  

special20: Romeo_Santana: Is that what CNN and John Stewart told you to think?

It's Jon, you farkin dumb ass. I guess it's not important in the bubble you live in.


;::notsureifserious.jpg:::::
 
2012-12-28 05:27:40 PM  

KidneyStone: Bontesla: KidneyStone: Bontesla: KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.

Uhm your health insurance costs Do go up because employers weren't forced to cover things like contraception. Who do you think eats those costs when an uninsured mother gives birth?

Uhm, the doctor/hospital, not the insurance company.

Wait - you think doctors and hospitals are giving out free medical care? With no compensation? Just for free because... They're notoriously nice?

Are you that naive or are you that stupid? If an uninsured mother is giving birth then where does she go? Doctor? Hospital? You pick one of those and tell us which one will turn away a woman in labor. If she is uninsured then how do the insurance companies get stuck with the bill? Do you suppose there's some general "uninsured mothers fund" where they all chip in or is it more of a round-robin thing where State Farm pays one week and then it's up to UHC and the next week it's someone else?

And they call ME stupid here.


LOL.

Insurance companies pay inflated prices that, when spread out, cover for the uninsured. Hospitals don't just eat those costs, they charge $900 for a friggin aspirin.
 
2012-12-28 05:28:05 PM  

giftedmadness: Um...#1 violates the employers right to practice their religion.


BS.

No religion I have ever heard of says you can't partake in insurance.

If religions were to argue that any insurance they pay for has to follow their beliefs then what would stop people from claiming that they are christian scientists, and can pay for no procedures?

The fact is insurance, like OSHA standards are requirements if you want to employ people in the US. Saying they can't support insurance that allows BC is no different than saying they don't want their employees to wear respirators in a toxic environment.
 
2012-12-28 05:28:14 PM  

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: So now the State invades religion, and forces some people to pay for abortions against their religious beliefs. Seriously, how is this really different from forcing people to worship a particular religion?


Care to quote the section of the bible that says you can't pay for someone else's abortion?
 
2012-12-28 05:28:22 PM  

Great Janitor: If you work for Company ABC and you think you should make more money and get certain benefits, it shouldn't be the government who forces Company ABC to make those changes. It should be up to you to make the change to get the benefits and pay that you believe that you deserve. If that means changing jobs or acquiring a new job skills set, then make those changes.


Because that worked out so well before the government got involved...
 
2012-12-28 05:28:31 PM  

giftedmadness: Bontesla: imtheonlylp: ok, here goes..

if you don't like it, then find another job...it's not mandatory that you believe what they do nor is it mandatory that you are employed there...

Your logic:
1). Law is created to protect employees.
2). Employer violates law.
3). Punish employee.

Um...#1 violates the employers right to practice their religion....


...and forcing the employee to adhere to their employer's religion doesn't interfere with their right to not be subject to their employer's religion? Hobby Lobby's owners are more than free to not use contraception - they don't get to make the choice for their employees. Well, I suppose unless sex and/or procreation are part of their duties as employees, but I'm thinking it isn't that sort of place.
 
2012-12-28 05:30:03 PM  

KidneyStone: Bontesla: KidneyStone: Bontesla: KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.

Uhm your health insurance costs Do go up because employers weren't forced to cover things like contraception. Who do you think eats those costs when an uninsured mother gives birth?

Uhm, the doctor/hospital, not the insurance company.

Wait - you think doctors and hospitals are giving out free medical care? With no compensation? Just for free because... They're notoriously nice?

Are you that naive or are you that stupid? If an uninsured mother is giving birth then where does she go? Doctor? Hospital? You pick one of those and tell us which one will turn away a woman in labor. If she is uninsured then how do the insurance companies get stuck with the bill? Do you suppose there's some general "uninsured mothers fund" where they all chip in or is it more of a round-robin thing where State Farm pays one week and then it's up to UHC and the next week it's someone else?

And they call ME stupid here.


You ARE stupid.! All that money has to get made back by billing INSURED patients more to cover the loss. That is why there is a 500% markup on gauze and aspirin and other basics. That is how insurance companies and insured patients get stuck with the bill. How dense are you not to be able to follow this simple concept?
 
2012-12-28 05:30:43 PM  

mmagdalene: Sin_City_Superhero: KidneyStone: I'm against my healthcare costs going up to pay for contraceptives. And that includes what I use.

You idiot.  Contraceptives cost LESS than a baby.  The BABY makes the cost go up.  Contraceptives prevent the expensive baby-making, thus costing LESS.  How do you not understand this?

Kidney stones, like babies, are entirely preventable. I resent paying for other peoples' failure to drink enough water.


And if insurance covering bottled water was cheaper than the cost of all kidney stone treatments, that would be a good idea too...
 
2012-12-28 05:31:25 PM  

ProfessorOhki: giftedmadness: Bontesla: imtheonlylp: ok, here goes..

if you don't like it, then find another job...it's not mandatory that you believe what they do nor is it mandatory that you are employed there...

Your logic:
1). Law is created to protect employees.
2). Employer violates law.
3). Punish employee.

Um...#1 violates the employers right to practice their religion....

...and forcing the employee to adhere to their employer's religion doesn't interfere with their right to not be subject to their employer's religion? Hobby Lobby's owners are more than free to not use contraception - they don't get to make the choice for their employees. Well, I suppose unless sex and/or procreation are part of their duties as employees, but I'm thinking it isn't that sort of place.


I dunno. Someone upthread mentioned they interviewed with them and was informed they start at minimum wage, so it sounds like Hobby Lobby does like farking its employees.
 
2012-12-28 05:33:11 PM  
It seems Hobby Lobby has already gone over the contraceptive cliff.
 
2012-12-28 05:33:13 PM  

Bontesla: KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.

Uhm your health insurance costs Do go up because employers weren't forced to cover things like contraception. Who do you think eats those costs when an uninsured mother gives birth?


You're assuming that the only way people can access contraceptives is if their health insurance pays for it.....that's a stupid assumption.
 
2012-12-28 05:33:37 PM  

KiTTeNs_on_AciD: KidneyStone: Bontesla: KidneyStone: Bontesla: KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.

Uhm your health insurance costs Do go up because employers weren't forced to cover things like contraception. Who do you think eats those costs when an uninsured mother gives birth?

Uhm, the doctor/hospital, not the insurance company.

Wait - you think doctors and hospitals are giving out free medical care? With no compensation? Just for free because... They're notoriously nice?

Are you that naive or are you that stupid? If an uninsured mother is giving birth then where does she go? Doctor? Hospital? You pick one of those and tell us which one will turn away a woman in labor. If she is uninsured then how do the insurance companies get stuck with the bill? Do you suppose there's some general "uninsured mothers fund" where they all chip in or is it more of a round-robin thing where State Farm pays one week and then it's up to UHC and the next week it's someone else?

And they call ME stupid here.

You ARE stupid.! All that money has to get made back by billing INSURED patients more to cover the loss. That is why there is a 500% markup on gauze and aspirin and other basics. That is how insurance companies and insured patients get stuck with the bill. How dense are you not to be able to follow this simple concept?


The hospital has several places where they can make up the shortfall: they can pay staff less, they can understaff, they jack up the insured patients' bills, they can put off building maintenance. You're both right, stupids.

/The only thing they can't do is cut admin salaries
//I mean, obviously
 
2012-12-28 05:34:03 PM  

randomjsa: Once again...

Government: You must do this! It's the law because we say so!

Private Company: We don't want to do that, it violates our personal religious beliefs.

Liberals: Private company! Stop "forcing" your beliefs on your employees!

The only group here using force is the government because its the only thing in this scenario that can even use force but in the twisted and deranged mind of a liberal, somehow it becomes the company forcing things on people that they don't want instead of the government.


The Establishment clause exists for a reason. I'm sorry this bothers you.

We now return you to your regularly-scheduled flamewar.
 
2012-12-28 05:34:20 PM  

Great Janitor: Interestingly enough, I don't think they should have the ability to tell you who to marry or if you can or can not adopt a child.


So what? If you vote Republican, you're helping elect people who do think they should have the ability to tell me just that.
 
2012-12-28 05:35:09 PM  

ghare: If Hobby Lobby closes due to a drop in sales, due to them being perceived by the public left as douchebags, then another art store will move in to take their place, and they will hire basically the same number of employees as Hobby Lobby did.


FTFY.... Let's see how bad it was for business last time.....

frugal-cafe.comView Full Size
 
2012-12-28 05:35:20 PM  

gaspode: cwolf20: On an unrelated note.

Owner with 6 employees figured up the math on providing insurance for the first time to his employees.

It'll be cheaper for him to take a 350 dollar hit per employee including himself and wife. Which wouldn't be an issue except she's never worked there. But the state government told him she always has. Meanwhile the employees will go forth and get Obama care.
False economy... it might be a tiny bit cheaper in the short term, but in terms of running a good long term business paying a few bucks a month per employee will pay back in spades. If he only had the sense.


It has nothing to do with its long-term viability, but everything to do with sticking it to the left at the expense of his employees.
 
2012-12-28 05:36:26 PM  

randomjsa: Once again...

Government: You must do this! It's the law because we say so! -Must? Nobody said they need to hire people or pay for insurance, but if they do there are rules. If they don't want to pay insurance,they are can choose not too.

Private Company: We don't want to do that, it violates our personal religious beliefs. -No religion I have ever heard of has said paying into an insurance plan is against their religion. If we were to allow religions to opt out of labor rules on newly discovered whims (because unless you can point me to some religion using this argument before Obamacare, that is what this is) then any employee can just claim they don't believe in th emost expensive treatments, thus reducing their cost of doing business.



The rest of your derp falls apart once you understand the above bolded parts.
 
2012-12-28 05:36:44 PM  

ghare: Great Janitor: Bontesla: Great Janitor: I really can't hate them for saying that they don't want to offer coverage that goes against their beliefs. They aren't saying that they don't want their female employees not to be on the pill or whatever, just that they don't want to offer those programs. If their employees don't like it, they can find work else where. It shouldn't be the government's position to tell businesses exactly what benefits they have to offer, what kind of healthcare packages they have to provide.

Why should your employer's religious preferences be imposed on the standard of insurance you can receive?

Other than offering insurance - the business has no business in my medical business.

Because they are paying for it.

Well, then, they obviously have the right to restrict what employees do with their paychecks too.


Your logic is awful, typical female emotional logic.  If I trade money for your work, I'm not paying you anything.  You are free to do with that money whatever you please.   Before Obamacare, I wasn't required to give you any healthcare, let alone something that goes against my religion.
 
2012-12-28 05:36:53 PM  

Great Janitor: The Why Not Guy: Great Janitor: It shouldn't be the government's position to tell businesses exactly what benefits they have to offer, what kind of healthcare packages they have to provide.

Oh, but they can tell me who I can or cannot marry, and prevent me from adopting a child?

Conservatives. Bless their hearts. Please.

Interestingly enough, I don't think they should have the ability to tell you who to marry or if you can or can not adopt a child.

The role of the government should be small. Making sure we have infrastructure, clean water, a military and police and fire. That's about where it should end. Telling your employer how much you should be paid and what benefits you should or should not get shouldn't be the government's concern. If you work for Company ABC and you think you should make more money and get certain benefits, it shouldn't be the government who forces Company ABC to make those changes. It should be up to you to make the change to get the benefits and pay that you believe that you deserve. If that means changing jobs or acquiring a new job skills set, then make those changes.


GENERAL STRIKE!! GENERAL STRIKE!!
 
2012-12-28 05:37:30 PM  

CreampuffCasperMilktoast: ghare: If Hobby Lobby closes due to a drop in sales, due to them being perceived by the public left as douchebags, then another art store will move in to take their place, and they will hire basically the same number of employees as Hobby Lobby did.

FTFY.... Let's see how bad it was for business last time.....

[www.frugal-cafe.com image 709x413]


That was ONE day.  It's not like those lines were there the next day...
 
2012-12-28 05:39:30 PM  

giftedmadness: Bontesla: KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.

Uhm your health insurance costs Do go up because employers weren't forced to cover things like contraception. Who do you think eats those costs when an uninsured mother gives birth?

You're assuming that the only way people can access contraceptives is if their health insurance pays for it.....that's a stupid assumption.


You're assuming that someone making minimum wage can afford to pay for a visit to the OBGYN to get a prescription for contraceptives out-of pocket as well as pay for the actual drugs.... that> is the stupid assumption. Why should a minimum wage employee take on such a huge health related cost out-of-pocket when they supposedly have health insurance? Family planning is a requirement for adults by because of natural processes. Type 2 diabetes is not, yet we are not debating covering the costs of that entirely avoidable condition. So really, WTF is your problem anyway?
 
2012-12-28 05:39:54 PM  

Sin_City_Superhero: CreampuffCasperMilktoast: ghare: If Hobby Lobby closes due to a drop in sales, due to them being perceived by the public left as douchebags, then another art store will move in to take their place, and they will hire basically the same number of employees as Hobby Lobby did.

FTFY.... Let's see how bad it was for business last time.....

[www.frugal-cafe.com image 709x413]

That was ONE day.  It's not like those lines were there the next day...


They had fiscal quarter increases, but yeah the picture was more to show that point.
 
2012-12-28 05:40:45 PM  

giftedmadness: let alone something that goes against my religion.


It's funny (both funny "ha ha" and funny "strange") to see the Conservatives who cheered our invasion of Iraq clutching their pearls over things that go against their religion.

War? Tens of thousands dead or injured? USA! USA! USA!
Birth control pills? Gasp!
 
2012-12-28 05:41:05 PM  

clyph: What was the name of the religious leader who commanded his followers to cure the sick?

Oh right, is was Jesus.

But fundies only read the part of the bible that has smiting and abominations... they skip over the parts that say "feed and clothe the poor", "cure the sick", and "love one another". And especially the parts that say to give away your riches and pray in private. They NEVER read those parts.


um....conservative Christians donate more to help the poor than anyone else.  Also, how does providing a morning after pill "cure" someone?
 
2012-12-28 05:42:35 PM  

giftedmadness: Before Obamacare, I wasn't required to give you any healthcare, let alone something that goes against my religion


You aren't required to now either.

You can choose not to and pay a fine.

I don't think it is an ideal solution, but aside from universal healthcare I don't see how else to get people covered. It is prohibitively expensive for an individual to get it on his own.
 
2012-12-28 05:45:18 PM  

giftedmadness: um....conservative Christians donate more to help the poor than anyone else. Also, how does providing a morning after pill "cure" someone?


I think that person was highlighting the trend of "conservative Christians" doing everything in their power to stop any action that would help poor get better access to healthcare.
 
2012-12-28 05:45:34 PM  

giftedmadness: clyph: What was the name of the religious leader who commanded his followers to cure the sick?

Oh right, is was Jesus.

But fundies only read the part of the bible that has smiting and abominations... they skip over the parts that say "feed and clothe the poor", "cure the sick", and "love one another". And especially the parts that say to give away your riches and pray in private. They NEVER read those parts.

um....conservative Christians donate more to help the poor build megachurches than anyone else.  Also, how does providing a morning after pill "cure" someone?


FTFY
 
2012-12-28 05:46:57 PM  

liam76: giftedmadness: Before Obamacare, I wasn't required to give you any healthcare, let alone something that goes against my religion

You aren't required to now either.

You can choose not to and pay a fine.

I don't think it is an ideal solution, but aside from universal healthcare I don't see how else to get people covered. It is prohibitively expensive for an individual to get it on his own.


The definition of a "fine" is "A sum of money required to be paid as a penalty for an offense." So it sort of is required, you can just choose to break the law and suffer the consequences, which is in the form of a fine.
 
2012-12-28 05:48:15 PM  

ProfessorOhki:

The hospital has several places where they can make up the shortfall: they can pay staff less, they can understaff, they jack up the insured patients' bills, they can put off building maintenance. You're both right, stupids.

/The only thing they can't do is cut admin salaries
//I mean, obviously


Hospitals do not have several places where they can make up the shortfall. They can increase revenue, or decrease expenses. The former is billing the paying patients more which I mentioned, the latter involves shorting the quality of care that is provided. No one in their right mind would argue that providing lower quality care to insured patients is a viable solution, not while malpractice liability exists.

You honestly believe skipping annual (monthly) HVAC maintenance or not replacing burned out florescent light bulbs right-away is how hospitals cover their losses from treating uninsured patients?
 
2012-12-28 05:48:31 PM  
Its a christianly good store. If not for their occasional 40% off coupon, I wouldnt go near that farking place.
 
2012-12-28 05:50:00 PM  

CreampuffCasperMilktoast: The definition of a "fine" is "A sum of money required to be paid as a penalty for an offense." So it sort of is required, you can just choose to break the law and suffer the consequences, which is in the form of a fine.


The claim was that you were forced to do it.

If the fine increased every time, or you would eventually lose your business license if you didn't have healthcare, I would accept that claim. But since you can pay a "tax" "penalty" or "fine" to get out of it then it isn't required.
 
2012-12-28 05:50:31 PM  
i2.squidoocdn.comView Full Size


Holly Hobbie frowns on your shenanigans.

/I assume
 
2012-12-28 05:50:37 PM  

giftedmadness: .conservative Christians donate more to help the poor than anyone else


How much of that is non-required tithing?
 
2012-12-28 05:52:40 PM  

KidneyStone: ghare: KidneyStone: the_end_is_rear: KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.

Contraceptives are cheaper then babies

Personal responsibility is free

/and may as well be a unicorn these days

?? People want contraceptives to prevent unwanted pregnancies, they try to go to their doctor to get them (acting responsibly) but find their EMPLOYER has interfered with them trying to act responsibly, and you think this is good?

Ahh, the Modern Republican: willfully, insistently stupid, and proud of it.

I never said they're not allowed to have them. I never said anything about not paying for a doctor visit. I never said i was even AGAINST contraceptives.

I'm against my healthcare costs going up to pay for contraceptives. And that includes what I use.

Ahh, the Modern Presumptuous Douchebag: Clueless, insistently entitled, and proud of it.

/I'm a Libertarian. Some conservative views without all the bullshiat worrying about who sleeps with who or who prays to whatever they call god


Um, you are NOT a libertarian.  If you were one, you would allow a company to provide whatever benefits they damn well pleased.
 
2012-12-28 05:53:14 PM  

ElwoodCuse: Yes, the pill, morning-after pill, and IUDs are "abortion-causing devices". Whatta maroon.


Seriously...if that's the angle they use, then half of the products on their shelves (various chemicals, glues, xacto blades, wiring, hand tools) are abortion-causing devices.

/doesn't shop at HL
//Petco of Hobby stores
///prefers specialty shops that actually know their farking products
 
2012-12-28 05:53:49 PM  

giftedmadness: um....conservative Christians donate more to help the poor than anyone else.


Donating to a church counts as donating to charity, but it doesn't necessarily equal donating to the poor. Many churches do wonderful work for the poor. Many churches do not.
 
2012-12-28 05:55:07 PM  

giftedmadness: clyph: What was the name of the religious leader who commanded his followers to cure the sick?

Oh right, is was Jesus.

But fundies only read the part of the bible that has smiting and abominations... they skip over the parts that say "feed and clothe the poor", "cure the sick", and "love one another". And especially the parts that say to give away your riches and pray in private. They NEVER read those parts.

um....conservative Christians donate more to help the poor than anyone else.  Also, how does providing a morning after pill "cure" someone?


[citation needed]

Difficulty: Don't count tithes, political lobbying, or contributions to megachurch leader's pockets as "donations."

CreampuffCasperMilktoast: The definition of a "fine" is "A sum of money required to be paid as a penalty for an offense." So it sort of is required, you can just choose to break the law and suffer the consequences, which is in the form of a fine.


That's true, but the supreme court already ruled that it is a tax, not a fine penalty, so the semantics of "fine" don't matter here.
 
2012-12-28 05:55:25 PM  

fanbladesaresharp: ElwoodCuse: Yes, the pill, morning-after pill, and IUDs are "abortion-causing devices". Whatta maroon.

Seriously...if that's the angle they use, then half of the products on their shelves (various chemicals, glues, xacto blades, wiring, hand tools) are abortion-causing devices.

/doesn't shop at HL
//Petco of Hobby stores
///prefers specialty shops that actually know their farking products


COMPLETELY off-topic, but curious. What's the story with Petco? I actually prefer them to PetSmart but that has more to do with selection than anything else. Judging by the slashies I would guess you take issue with the knowledge level of their staff?
 
2012-12-28 05:55:53 PM  

giftedmadness: Um...#1 violates the employers right to practice their religion....


Learn the difference between "practicing your religion" and "imposing your religion on other people".

Your right to practice YOUR religion ENDS where my right to practice MY religion BEGINS. That's the distinction you teabagging fundie assholes never seem to understand. Practicing your religion means "I must wear magic underwear". That's fine. What we have a problem with is when you say "My employees must wear magic underwear".

Practice your own farking religion to your heart's content. Wear funny hats and magic underwear, eat special food, abstain from sex and dancing, whatever you think makes your invisible sky wizard happy -- all perfectly fine with us. Just leave the rest of us out of it.

If you're right, we're going to hell anyway. That's actually fine with us, as long as our afterlife doesn't mean spending an eternity surrounded by self-righteous douchebags like you.
 
2012-12-28 05:57:14 PM  

randomjsa: Once again...

Government: You must do this! It's the law because we say so!

Private Company: We don't want to do that, it violates our personal religious beliefs.

Liberals: Private company! Stop "forcing" your beliefs on your employees!

The only group here using force is the government because its the only thing in this scenario that can even use force but in the twisted and deranged mind of a liberal, somehow it becomes the company forcing things on people that they don't want instead of the government.


Very very well put.  Bravo.
 
2012-12-28 05:57:59 PM  
I feel like I do a good job of boycotting companies that like to refuse basic rights because of religion or flying spaghetti monsters or whatever. I'm just not sure I can live without Hobby Lobby in my life. Their sales are all sorts of amazing.
 
2012-12-28 05:58:26 PM  

Great Janitor: It shouldn't be the government's position to tell businesses exactly what benefits they have to offer, what kind of healthcare packages they have to provide.


or who they have to sell to or if they have to have handicap access. you and rand paul would fit right in at the sit ins. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sit-in

btw are you against minimum wage also?
 
2012-12-28 05:58:46 PM  

KiTTeNs_on_AciD: ProfessorOhki:

The hospital has several places where they can make up the shortfall: they can pay staff less, they can understaff, they jack up the insured patients' bills, they can put off building maintenance. You're both right, stupids.

/The only thing they can't do is cut admin salaries
//I mean, obviously

Hospitals do not have several places where they can make up the shortfall. They can increase revenue, or decrease expenses. The former is billing the paying patients more which I mentioned, the latter involves shorting the quality of care that is provided. No one in their right mind would argue that providing lower quality care to insured patients is a viable solution, not while malpractice liability exists.

You honestly believe skipping annual (monthly) HVAC maintenance or not replacing burned out florescent light bulbs right-away is how hospitals cover their losses from treating uninsured patients?


No, but working staff long hours without enough pay to make up for it is a form of decreasing expenses and you better believe it happens. So, go ahead and tell me again how doctors bear none of the burden.
 
2012-12-28 06:00:38 PM  

dr_blasto: giftedmadness: ThrobblefootSpectre: Religious belief does not make you exempt from law that affects everyone.* You do not get to deny health benefits, hide your face for a driver's licence photo, beat your children for having a boyfriend, or smoke weed.


*(Unless your ancestors were here before the U.S. existed and peyote is a historically documented part of your religion.)

false equivalence.   Nobody is forcing people to work for Hobby Lobby.  If they don't like the health benefits offered by HL, they can apply for a job elsewhere.

Nobody is forcing Hobby Lobby to sell their shiat in the United States. If Hobby Lobby doesn't like the US, they can go run their business elsewhere.


wtf....I don't even.....have the words....wtf......lol
 
2012-12-28 06:00:48 PM  
I would be wondering what the underlying condition of the company is at this time. This would give them a way to shut it down without taking any of the blame. If this company is privately held, their next step will be to shutter it and blame it on the government. I hope they don't expect to see the kind of faux support that Chik Fillet got. They were in the much better situation of having supporters who were hungry every day. You can only stockpile so much of the artsy crafty merch.
 
2012-12-28 06:02:15 PM  
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."
 
2012-12-28 06:02:17 PM  

giftedmadness: dr_blasto: giftedmadness: ThrobblefootSpectre: Religious belief does not make you exempt from law that affects everyone.* You do not get to deny health benefits, hide your face for a driver's licence photo, beat your children for having a boyfriend, or smoke weed.


*(Unless your ancestors were here before the U.S. existed and peyote is a historically documented part of your religion.)

false equivalence.   Nobody is forcing people to work for Hobby Lobby.  If they don't like the health benefits offered by HL, they can apply for a job elsewhere.

Nobody is forcing Hobby Lobby to sell their shiat in the United States. If Hobby Lobby doesn't like the US, they can go run their business elsewhere.

wtf....I don't even.....have the words....wtf......lol


What? What's wrong?
 
2012-12-28 06:02:34 PM  

giftedmadness: conservative Christians donate more to help the poor than anyone else


They give more to their churches, maybe.

How much of that actually HELPS the poor versus how much lines the pockets of the church leadership, and how much goes towards proselyting, is another question altogether.

FYI, telling the poor that they're going to burn in hell unless they join your church isn't "helping" them.
 
2012-12-28 06:03:03 PM  
Now I don't feel so bad about all the shiat I broke there.
 
2012-12-28 06:04:28 PM  

Bontesla: imtheonlylp: Bontesla: imtheonlylp: ok, here goes..

if you don't like it, then find another job...it's not mandatory that you believe what they do nor is it mandatory that you are employed there...

Your logic:
1). Law is created to protect employees.
2). Employer violates law.
3). Punish employee.

don't really think they're "punishing" anyone...employees are welcome to get their own insurance wherever they please...

My logic:
1) You don't agree with a business or their ethics or even their stance on any issue.
2) Don't work there and don't shop there.
3) Problem solved.

That's not actual logic. Your conclusion isn't a deduction made from your premises. It's not even inductive logic.

And if you don't think that the loss of work isn't a punishment for employees at the Hobby Lobby then you might just pass as a Romney son.


meh, whatever...i still say if ya dont like it, gtfo and go flip burgers or something...and stay off my lawn... but stop biatching about it...

"their freedom to express themselves religiously is oppressing my freedom to work wherever i choose"

pretty useless argument the way i see it...

/yep, blind republican...my bad
 
2012-12-28 06:06:34 PM  
Cruisng the local Chick-a-Fillet for fresh, ready-to-emerge-from-the-closet poultry eaters.

frugal-cafe.comView Full Size
 
2012-12-28 06:06:56 PM  
Who here honestly believes that it is perfectly OK for the owners of a business to impose their religious beliefs on employees?

We're talking about employees of a business here, not the clergy of a religious institution.
 
2012-12-28 06:06:59 PM  

liam76: giftedmadness: Um...#1 violates the employers right to practice their religion.

BS.

No religion I have ever heard of says you can't partake in insurance.

If religions were to argue that any insurance they pay for has to follow their beliefs then what would stop people from claiming that they are christian scientists, and can pay for no procedures?

The fact is insurance, like OSHA standards are requirements if you want to employ people in the US. Saying they can't support insurance that allows BC is no different than saying they don't want their employees to wear respirators in a toxic environment.


Providing insurance to employees was a law before Obamacare?
 
2012-12-28 06:08:36 PM  

dr_blasto: KidneyStone: Bontesla: KidneyStone: Bontesla: KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.

Uhm your health insurance costs Do go up because employers weren't forced to cover things like contraception. Who do you think eats those costs when an uninsured mother gives birth?

Uhm, the doctor/hospital, not the insurance company.

Wait - you think doctors and hospitals are giving out free medical care? With no compensation? Just for free because... They're notoriously nice?

Are you that naive or are you that stupid? If an uninsured mother is giving birth then where does she go? Doctor? Hospital? You pick one of those and tell us which one will turn away a woman in labor. If she is uninsured then how do the insurance companies get stuck with the bill? Do you suppose there's some general "uninsured mothers fund" where they all chip in or is it more of a round-robin thing where State Farm pays one week and then it's up to UHC and the next week it's someone else?

And they call ME stupid here.

LOL.

Insurance companies pay inflated prices that, when spread out, cover for the uninsured. Hospitals don't just eat those costs, they charge $900 for a friggin aspirin.


Thanks for covering. I was finishing up work.
 
2012-12-28 06:10:50 PM  

ProfessorOhki: giftedmadness: Bontesla: imtheonlylp: ok, here goes..

if you don't like it, then find another job...it's not mandatory that you believe what they do nor is it mandatory that you are employed there...

Your logic:
1). Law is created to protect employees.
2). Employer violates law.
3). Punish employee.

Um...#1 violates the employers right to practice their religion....

...and forcing the employee to adhere to their employer's religion doesn't interfere with their right to not be subject to their employer's religion? Hobby Lobby's owners are more than free to not use contraception - they don't get to make the choice for their employees. Well, I suppose unless sex and/or procreation are part of their duties as employees, but I'm thinking it isn't that sort of place.


They aren't PREVENTING them from using contraception.  If one of their employees uses a contraceptive that the employee pays for herself, she will not be fired.  No freedom is abridged.
 
2012-12-28 06:12:39 PM  

ProfessorOhki: KiTTeNs_on_AciD: ProfessorOhki:

The hospital has several places where they can make up the shortfall: they can pay staff less, they can understaff, they jack up the insured patients' bills, they can put off building maintenance. You're both right, stupids.

/The only thing they can't do is cut admin salaries
//I mean, obviously

Hospitals do not have several places where they can make up the shortfall. They can increase revenue, or decrease expenses. The former is billing the paying patients more which I mentioned, the latter involves shorting the quality of care that is provided. No one in their right mind would argue that providing lower quality care to insured patients is a viable solution, not while malpractice liability exists.

You honestly believe skipping annual (monthly) HVAC maintenance or not replacing burned out florescent light bulbs right-away is how hospitals cover their losses from treating uninsured patients?

No, but working staff long hours without enough pay to make up for it is a form of decreasing expenses and you better believe it happens. So, go ahead and tell me again how doctors bear none of the burden.


I can't tell you that again because I never told you the first time. What I can tell you again is that it is standard practice to bill over cost by 500% or more on basic items and procedures. This is no secret.

Also, I personally know too many ICU nurses to pretend for a second that hospitals aren't willing to exploit their employees passion for helping people when it benefits them financially. I just wouldn't argue that the exploitation makes up much of the ~$49B cost of treating the uninsured. Just like any other business, hospitals pass their costs on to the consumer.
 
2012-12-28 06:13:00 PM  

CreampuffCasperMilktoast: ghare: If Hobby Lobby closes due to a drop in sales, due to them being perceived by the public left as douchebags, then another art store will move in to take their place, and they will hire basically the same number of employees as Hobby Lobby did.

FTFY.... Let's see how bad it was for business last time.....

[www.frugal-cafe.com image 709x413]


Yup. Boycotts and protests don't work.

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i651.photobucket.comView Full Size


i651.photobucket.comView Full Size


Thank god our privately-owned lunch counters can decide who they want to serve based upon the color of their skin, without the Federal government coming in with their "laws" impinging on our frrrrrrdoooommssss!!1
 
2012-12-28 06:14:35 PM  
This is a simple concept people. If the owners of Hobby Lobby believe that abortion is murder, they have a moral responsibility to not pay for said murders.

But - I know there is no way but the liberal way and liberals have the right to dictate to people what they must believe and how they must spend their money. The Russians and Chinese communists use forced labor camps, jail and sometimes murder to enforce their ideologies on people. You liberals should look into it. I hear its very effective.
 
2012-12-28 06:16:18 PM  

giftedmadness: ProfessorOhki: giftedmadness: Bontesla: imtheonlylp: ok, here goes..

if you don't like it, then find another job...it's not mandatory that you believe what they do nor is it mandatory that you are employed there...

Your logic:
1). Law is created to protect employees.
2). Employer violates law.
3). Punish employee.

Um...#1 violates the employers right to practice their religion....

...and forcing the employee to adhere to their employer's religion doesn't interfere with their right to not be subject to their employer's religion? Hobby Lobby's owners are more than free to not use contraception - they don't get to make the choice for their employees. Well, I suppose unless sex and/or procreation are part of their duties as employees, but I'm thinking it isn't that sort of place.

They aren't PREVENTING them from using contraception.  If one of their employees uses a contraceptive that the employee pays for herself, she will not be fired.  No freedom is abridged.


You're not getting it. It has nothing to do with it being contraception or insurance. The employer should not be applying their religion to their employees in any way, shape, or form.
 
2012-12-28 06:17:16 PM  

garron: This is a simple concept people. If the owners of Hobby Lobby believe that abortion is murder, they have a moral responsibility to not pay for said murders.

But - I know there is no way but the liberal way and liberals have the right to dictate to people what they must believe and how they must spend their money. The Russians and Chinese communists use forced labor camps, jail and sometimes murder to enforce their ideologies on people. You liberals should look into it. I hear its very effective.


They also believe that contraception (regardless of its use) is abortion. They also believe all sorts of other crazy sh*t.
 
2012-12-28 06:18:50 PM  

Soymilk: ghare: I just spent $40 at Sam Flax instead of Hobby Lobby because of this. Tried to email them a pic of my receipt, but for some reason there doesn't appear o be a link to email them with comments on their website.

I sent money to Planned Parenthood and then posted a screenshot of my contribution receipt to Komen's Facebook page. It was deleted faster than you can say "Abortionplex".


Pic or it didn't happen :P
 
2012-12-28 06:19:09 PM  

KiTTeNs_on_AciD: I can't tell you that again because I never told you the first time. What I can tell you again is that it is standard practice to bill over cost by 500% or more on basic items and procedures. This is no secret.


I suppose you didn't. I was getting your posts interlaced with someone else who was arguing with KidneyStone and seemed to imply that 100% of the additional cost was pushed to insurance w/o any impact on the doctors/hospital operations.
 
2012-12-28 06:20:15 PM  

pxlboy: garron: This is a simple concept people. If the owners of Hobby Lobby believe that abortion is murder, they have a moral responsibility to not pay for said murders.

But - I know there is no way but the liberal way and liberals have the right to dictate to people what they must believe and how they must spend their money. The Russians and Chinese communists use forced labor camps, jail and sometimes murder to enforce their ideologies on people. You liberals should look into it. I hear its very effective.

They also believe that contraception (regardless of its use) is abortion. They also believe all sorts of other crazy sh*t.


So what. One of the great parts of our formerly "free" country was that an employee could choose where they work. If you don't like a company's policies - don't work there, don't shop there and talk bad about them all you want - but don't force them to believe your "crazy sh*t".
 
2012-12-28 06:20:28 PM  

imtheonlylp: Bontesla: imtheonlylp: ok, here goes..

if you don't like it, then find another job...it's not mandatory that you believe what they do nor is it mandatory that you are employed there...

Your logic:
1). Law is created to protect employees.
2). Employer violates law.
3). Punish employee.

don't really think they're "punishing" anyone...employees are welcome to get their own insurance wherever they please...

My logic:
1) You don't agree with a business or their ethics or even their stance on any issue.
2) Don't work there and don't shop there.
3) Problem solved.


Your logic is detrimental to residents of small towns (small being under say 15,000k people with no larger population around) that have one large employer that half the city works for. Think lumber towns of old that when that industry started to die, the municipalities had to replace that loss with another industry or the whole economy goes to shiat. I know. I've lived in and out of one for most of my life. Now say that single large employer wants to impress their particular beliefs on the other corporation that handles their insurance portfolio and they decide to cancel the policies.

Now apply your "just don't shop or work there then, problem solved" logic. Now you have a city full of people that are out of a job, with little prospects as the "local" jobs all have 600 applicants from people not even remotely qualified to do picture framing or sell custom shoes. The large employer simply closes up shop, absorbs the loss and focuses on profitable stores in some other county or state. The residents are stuck with a gaping hole in damn near everything from the tax revenues (even at steep discounts for the employer) for the city, higher tax burdens later, cutbacks across the board, loss job opportunities, less money in circulation and discretionary income......and......and......I guess the point is your logic doesn't really work except on a piece of paper and Hobby Lobby needs to get with the times and realize they are a public company, not a church. I could care less if they are all Hindus, Muslims, Jews or whatever in your personal life, but if you provide for all your employees, then you should do just that.
 
2012-12-28 06:20:55 PM  

pxlboy: randomjsa: Once again...

Government: You must do this! It's the law because we say so!

Private Company: We don't want to do that, it violates our personal religious beliefs.

Liberals: Private company! Stop "forcing" your beliefs on your employees!

The only group here using force is the government because its the only thing in this scenario that can even use force but in the twisted and deranged mind of a liberal, somehow it becomes the company forcing things on people that they don't want instead of the government.

The Establishment clause exists for a reason. I'm sorry this bothers you.

We now return you to your regularly-scheduled flamewar.


cdn.chud.comView Full Size
 
2012-12-28 06:21:09 PM  

KidneyStone: Look up personal responsibility


Sure thing! Let's see, P... Peanut... Ah, here we go.

Personal Responsiblity n.
1. What conservatives constantly preach but rarely, if ever, actually practice.

Hey, there's a picture of Craig T. Nelson next to the definition!

garron: If the owners of Hobby Lobby believe that abortion is murder, they have a moral responsibility to not pay for said murders.


So you're OK if Cindy Sheehan and death penalty opposers also sued the government because they too have a moral responsibility not to pay for murder?
 
2012-12-28 06:21:33 PM  
The govt is forcing Hobby Lobby to act in a way that conflicts with their beliefs, so I'm proud of this private enterprise for standing its ground against an aggressively coercive government. I believe in freedom, and Hobby Lobby should be free to run it's business as the owners see fit, and the employees are free to seek work elsewhere if they don't like it.
 
2012-12-28 06:22:23 PM  

KidneyStone: lennavan: Sin_City_Superhero: KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.

Insurance that pays for contraception is cheaper than insurance that doesn't, and has to pay to deliver an unwanted baby, then maintain it's health for years, and years. How do you not understand this. A rubber costs a couple of bucks. How much does it cost to bring a baby to term, you dolt?

Well when you pop the kid out, $3-5000 will cover the room depending on if you're there two or three nights. As for the doctors/nurses, procedures/meds, etc well those are gonna be extra. And don't get me started on the pregnant lady checkups.

So instead of paying $3,000 for the room for two nights, you could just pay for 60 months of birth control if you have no insurance.

/One of these days I'm gonna do all of the math out to see how many months of non insured BC you can get for a single kid, starting from maternal care to popping it out.

Another genius missing my point.

Imma try again a different way:
Where does the law say that if health insurance doesn't cover contraceptives then people are not allowed to buy their own?

The arguments here are all "if the health insurance doesn't cover birth control then a babby will be formed"


Nobody is missing your point, your point is just stupid. We don't get to pick and choose pet causes to kick out of health care plans. Family planning and reproductive health are covered. End of story. This thread is only playing out from their because the rest of us are fascinated with your fixation on punishing people who want sex and not children. People who don't use contraception (have kids), people with poor diets who don't exercise, and smokers will cost you more in the long run. Where is the outrage for that? Why this fixation on people who are getting laid and don't want kids or more kids?
 
2012-12-28 06:24:11 PM  

vernonFL: Christian Science Pharmacist refuses to fill any prescription


WTF? Don't they believe in faith healing? Be like an Amish robotics engineer.
 
2012-12-28 06:24:17 PM  

mwfark: I believe in freedom


Yep, the freedom to do what our corporate and religious masters tell us to do. Now STFU, GBTW, and remember prayer is at 7am sharp if you want to keep your job, you good for nothing layabout.
 
2012-12-28 06:25:00 PM  

KiTTeNs_on_AciD: Why this fixation on people who are getting laid and don't want kids or more kids?


Jealousy?
 
2012-12-28 06:25:13 PM  

Jim_Tressel's_O-Face: KidneyStone: Look up personal responsibility

Sure thing! Let's see, P... Peanut... Ah, here we go.

Personal Responsiblity n.
1. What conservatives constantly preach but rarely, if ever, actually practice.

Hey, there's a picture of Craig T. Nelson next to the definition!

garron: If the owners of Hobby Lobby believe that abortion is murder, they have a moral responsibility to not pay for said murders.

So you're OK if Cindy Sheehan and death penalty opposers also sued the government because they too have a moral responsibility not to pay for murder?


Absolutely. I don't agree with Sheehan politically or her motivations, but I do know that slavery would not have ended if people did not exercise their moral responsibility to do everything in their power to put an end to it. If that's what she believes, she needs to make her case. If she's right, people will listen.
 
2012-12-28 06:25:43 PM  

KiTTeNs_on_AciD: fanbladesaresharp: ElwoodCuse: Yes, the pill, morning-after pill, and IUDs are "abortion-causing devices". Whatta maroon.

Seriously...if that's the angle they use, then half of the products on their shelves (various chemicals, glues, xacto blades, wiring, hand tools) are abortion-causing devices.

/doesn't shop at HL
//Petco of Hobby stores
///prefers specialty shops that actually know their farking products

COMPLETELY off-topic, but curious. What's the story with Petco? I actually prefer them to PetSmart but that has more to do with selection than anything else. Judging by the slashies I would guess you take issue with the knowledge level of their staff?


Yes actually. I'd like to talk to someone that has more than 6 months experience selling X-hobby tools and components while chewing gum or still learning how to count back change. It's annoying. And I've been in a lot of PetCos in several states and it seems company wide.
 
2012-12-28 06:27:10 PM  
As usual, the smarmy, conceited, and belligerent schoolboy-atheist types are descending into circle-jerkery.

The interesting thing is that these fellows are generally still dependant upon mummy and daddy. There's nothing quite like the sense of entitlement that comes from extended adolescence.

You do not have a right to medical care. It's a privilege.