HeadLever: santadog: The reality is that Wolves take care of the weaklings, the sick, the old, the doomed.point of clarification;Actually, during the winter when the deep snow get's a little crust on it, wolves has their choice of any animal they want. Old, young, fast, healthy, it really does not matter. The talking point that wolves only take the sick and old is a myth. During the part of the year where big game is not encumbered by snow, wolves will typically take the slowest in the herds, but individual animals (no matter how healthy) don't stand much of a chance against a hungry pack of wolves.
cuzsis: Bet their "hunting" success goes down once the collared ones are done...
cuzsis: They are readjusting, eventually they will balance back out. Now, I do think that wolves should be reintroduced slowly to prevent large population swings, but to imply that the wolves will hunt everything into near extinction and that we'll never have good hunting again is fear mongering nonsense completely contradicted by thousands of years of evidence.
Befuddled: If their livestock is being harmed by wolves, then the ranchers should find a way to protect their livestock in a way that doesn't involve killing the predators who are just doing what predators do. The ranchers are making the problem by bringing in easy prey and dangling it in front of the existing predators. If they can't find a way to protect their livestock in a way other than killing the predators, then they should get out of the business of ranching.
SwiftFox: A sport hunting season is not managing wolves, simply maximizing them. Hello?
SwiftFox: There is no reason to believe their prey animals are adapted to or can long withstand the additional disease transmission occurring without wolves' prevention.
cuzsis: sp86: firefly212: Easy meat and easy bread make easy fat and easy dead.That's cute and all, but you have to admit deer hunting is pretty easy.Granted you won't see a 400 lb dude dragging a bambi out on his all terrain rascal any time soon ... I forgot where I was going with that but that mental image is hilarious.Come hunt the grey ghost of the Cascades. ;)/blacktails are notoriously hard to hunt//whitetails...not so much.
HeadLever: Nature works well in a vacuum. When you have folks around (especially when those folks like to hunt), it does not work so well.
HeadLever: SwiftFox: There is no reason to believe their prey animals are adapted to or can long withstand the additional disease transmission occurring without wolves' prevention.Not sure about this. They have been doing exactly that when the wolves were removed from these areas. That is a time span of 40 to 50 years. Yes, there have been instances of certain diseases within this timeframe, but nothing that would endanger the entire population of these prey species.
HeadLever: SwiftFox: A sport hunting season is not managing wolves, simply maximizing them. Hello?We have had this discussion before and as we finally decided there - we will see. I am pretty optimistic that sport hunting can effectively manage these populations. The proof will be in the next few years. So far Idaho's overall wolf population is holding pretty steady over the last 3 years. So far, so good.
santadog: HeadLever: Keizer_Ghidorah: Not really. Nature did an excellent job of it before humans ever appeared, and had been for a couple billion years. "Manage" means "keeping them where humans desire so we can exploit them as needed".Nature no longer exists in a vacuum here in the lower 48. Every state has management agencies that manage differing populations with respect to stated goals. in places where there is little development this is easy as it is more of a predator/prey/hunter population balance equation. In areas where you have greater development, wildlife conflict also becomes a major player as well as teh fact that hunting cannot be utilized in the same form for population control.It is not really exploitation. It is managing populations for the greater good of the entire (including humans) system.That works until the managers are told to stop. Our DOW (Dept. of Wildlife) Guy that comes to Estes Park is stationed in Longmont.. about a 45min drive. We had bears like crazy this summer. I live on the property of the Elkhorn Lodge. For WEEKS we had numerous bears on the property at any given time or day. We were told by him, that Bear Relocations are no longer an option because of budget cuts. Now, the guy who's suppose to be the Liaison between the bears and the humans.. keep the peace, as it were, has been instructed to kill ANY and ALL nuisance bears.And here's what you get: Dead BearsThere was a 2nd Bear on the Elkhorn Property. It's not been reported. It was DOW that took him down.. but the "Town" would be more up in arms if they found out there was another death.No bear proof dumpsters for the Town..they don't want to spend the money, so there bears will keep coming and dying.That's the management plan.
Glitchwerks: Nature has never existed in a vacuum, never will. Native Americans did just fine with wolves around.
SwiftFox: Ah, but if I am not wrong, what is the endgame going to be? Further reductions in the number of adult wolves, or trying to tell game hunters to be patient about not hunting and residents to endure extra depredation until the packs have rebuilt sizes and social structures, and their reproduction rate returns to normal?
HeadLever: Sure it did several thousands of years ago.
HeadLever: f you spend all of your time looking back and dreaming of how things were 500 years ago, you are going to set yourself up for failure in the future.
Glitchwerks: the balance of nature
HeadLever: Ultimately, lamenting the actions of our ancestors and waxing nostalgic about an idealistic past is not going to solve any wildlife issues we face today.
HeadLever: SwiftFox: Ah, but if I am not wrong, what is the endgame going to be? Further reductions in the number of adult wolves, or trying to tell game hunters to be patient about not hunting and residents to endure extra depredation until the packs have rebuilt sizes and social structures, and their reproduction rate returns to normal?If you are not wrong, then we will likely have to update the management stratagy. Most of the biologist here seem to think that the current plan is the best option, but the next 4 or so years will tell us much more. No doubt about it, we are in uncharted territory with this. It will be a learning process for many.The situation you describe for Michigan would seem to have a little bit more information avaliable as the situations there is similar to what some Canadian areas have had to deal with.
SwiftFox: But what does David Mech really imply when he says that Idaho can harvest 50% of the wolves and they will replace the ones removed?
Glitchwerks: The Yellowstone wolf restoration project has proved that wolves are necessary for a healthy and balanced ecosystem.
HeadLever: It was never the Yellowstone wolf restoration project. Yellowstone is only about 15% of the area where wolves inhabit these 3 states.
HeadLever: Glitchwerks: The Yellowstone wolf restoration project has proved that wolves are necessary for a healthy and balanced ecosystem.It was never the Yellowstone wolf restoration project. Yellowstone is only about 15% of the area where wolves inhabit these 3 states.While you may be somewhat correct about the goals within Yellowstone, you have to realize that management objectives and land uses are quite different here than the remaining 85% of the public land.
HeadLever: Do you think that the reintroduction into these three states was only in Yellowstone? You might want to check up on that because it is false.
Glitchwerks: I am referring to that study alone, please stop telling everyone else they are wrong and stop assuming.
HeadLever: Except for when you weren't.
Glitchwerks: HeadLever: Except for when you weren't.You're taking quotes completely out of context at this point. SMH.
Keizer_Ghidorah: fark the wolves and shoot them all.
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