DamnYankees: GAT_00: Yeah, but it wasn't like Jefferson was the only abolitionist who never freed his slaves.Jefferson wasn't an abolitionist. He was the opposite.
Scott_Free: DamnYankees: Scott_Free: Show me a person who did more.George Washington.Bullshiat. Just a surveyor with money. Not even close to what Jefferson did Read your history.\
DROxINxTHExWIND: hideous: We know Jefferson had this cold intellectual ability to compartmentalize. To speak the idealist's dreams of a perfect society, even as he tuned out the noise from the nail factory ? I guess the question we struggle with is, does the man's evils taint the great ideas, can we still aspire to Jefferson's ideals, knowing he failed to live up to them.For me there is a parallel. The hippies in the sixties and early seventies wanted equality, freedom, and felt we had no right to wage war against the Vietnamese. Flash forward a couple of decades, and the same demographic, now with property and assets, supported the war in Iraq, reelected W, would go along with anything, just as long as the gas for their SUV's kept coming. The people who used to worship at the altar of John Lennon, now fight universal health care because it will make them have to wait longer to get care so the poor can have access at all.A man with something to lose will drop his idealism like a hot potato if you try to shut off his Cable tv. Human Nature.I reject that notion. 9/11 happened. SOME OF the hippies were not supporting war to protect property. They were fearful because of the government propaganda that told them more 9/11 type events were forthcoming unless we waged war. The same chicken hawks who supported Vietnam are the people who supported the Iraq war. Lets not act like we went to war because the flower children now have flat screen TVs.
david_gaithersburg: ///There is a giant conspiracy by the media and the educational system to attack democrats.
macadamnut: And re: Washington and Jefferson, consider this: whatever contemporaries thought of them, on some level they are the role models for all subsequent American politicians. If that's success, I'd like a large order of fail.
Triumph: david_gaithersburg: ///There is a giant conspiracy by the media and the educational system to attack democrats.You should have seen how democrats were handled in the movie Lincoln. It was brutal. I don't know how Spielberg lives with himself.
ds615: If history records you as a "great man", then you were almost certainly a "bad man".Truly, all the "great" people of history werehad dicks.
david_gaithersburg: Things I've recently learned on Fark:/All teachers are far right conservatives.//All of the media is run by far right conservatives.///There is a giant conspiracy by the media and the educational system to attack democrats.
Jeet Kune D'oh: Jefferson's culpability for the continuation of slavery under his watch, his personal empathy for slaves and the system as a whole, and pretty much every subject related to the above will be debated for centuries. There's ample evidence to argue both points.In this case, though, before getting all worked up over the subject, it's good to know that Paul Finkelman has made a pretty good living by being the guy most eager to deal ol' TJ a swift punch in the nads in any public forum he can muster. As a scholar, he's respectable, but Jefferson must have killed his great-grandpappy's dog or something, because the dude has a serious ax to grind against Jefferson, and never misses an opportunity to get in a couple of shots.(Seriously, how many people wake up one morning and announce over the breakfast table, "Hmm, a new biography of John Doe is out. Time to write an OP-ED TO THE NEW YORK TIMES about what a douche John Doe was!")
edmo: Jefferson was just like every other white person then.
Jeet Kune D'oh: There's ample evidence to argue both points
The Jami Turman Fan Club: Fistfights in Congress were common...
The Jami Turman Fan Club: "You used Hitler in an argument against X. According to Godwin's law, you have lost. X is true, and it is now enshrined forever".What X is is irrelevant.Does this help?
Flash forward a couple of decades, and the same demographic, now with property and assets, supported the war in Iraq, reelected W, would go along with anything, just as long as the gas for their SUV's kept coming.
DamnYankees: NewportBarGuy: You guys want to know how important Thomas Jefferson was? Imagine if we didn't have him to battle against Alexander Hamilton while Washington presided over the Battle Royale that was the founding of this country.Alexander Hamilton was basically right about everything. I'm not sure why this is good.
Marshal805: Scott_Free: DamnYankees: Scott_Free: Show me a person who did more.George Washington.Bullshiat. Just a surveyor with money. Not even close to what Jefferson did Read your history.\Washington kept a rag tag army together when they kept wanting to quit. He managed to squash an attempted Military Coup by just one speech. He became the first President with NO example to follow and did a damn good job of it. And oh yeah, he manged to score a victory over the #1 military power of that century.So shut up, biatch.
Dear Jerk: Flawed human is an oxymoron.
DROxINxTHExWIND: ace in your face: Comparing morality in a different century is a little rediculous. Most of us wouldn't kill a person for being gay, or kill a black man for seducing a white woman, but a hundred years ago that shiat was pretty acceptable. In the reverse, I dont get called a slut for wearing a bathing suit but 100 years ago they would have arrested me. Times change. Jefferson was a defently moral man for the time.And in the 1940s Hitler thought Jews were less than human, so that's ok too, right?
ace in your face: Considering the backlash from the world (and even german people) after the war regarding the death camps, I would say murdering millions of people was not socially acceptable at the time. Comparing thomas Jefferson to Hitler made me laugh though.
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