abb3w: DerAppie: And to whom is the message aimed?Multiple audiences. The Christians, indicating "No, this space is not JUST for you"; the potentially persuadable (particularly younger generations) "there's other people with other ideas"; and yes, the other atheists.DerAppie: No matter how you dress it up, it is simply juvenile behaviour based on the idea that their point is more valid than that of anyone else.That can be turned around; "No matter how you dress them up, complaints are simply trying to make atheists go sit in the back of the bus."DerAppie: I want an original reason you came up with yourself.Sorry. Madison argued it rather more eloquently; "religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together".Also, "such a problem" seems to require it be argued all the way from an is-ought bridge, which would appear a pretty far moving of goalposts. If you're going to demand that, I'd have to insist we start with more basic propositions still and dredge out the P's and Q's. Nobody would appreciate that.
StoPPeRmobile: You're too reasonable. Stop it.
cassanovascotian: When you define yourself as categorically "against religion" you lose a lot of yours.
DerAppie: The Dutch have nailed most things shut legally and socially but are pretty relaxed about what happens with it. Contrariwise the US claims freedom to do stuff yet I have never heard of a society with such a hard on for various rules, no matter how trivial the case. Sometimes I simply assume a lot of the US thinks their Book of Laws is divinely inspired.
I drunk what: no, no i'm the one prostylitizing my non-belief and pretending that i can care about gay marriage and abortions
I drunk what: //ready to hit the reset button
DerAppie: Which is why everything that could lead to the slightest of friction needs to be banned preventively?
abb3w: Nobody would appreciate that.
"If they want to hold an opposing viewpoint about the celebration of Christmas, they're free to do that - but they can't interfere with our right to engage in religious speech in a traditional public forum," said William Becker, attorney for the committee.
"Our goal is to preserve the tradition in Santa Monica and to keep Christmas alive."
Kyro: [demotivators.despair.com image 617x435]
newtigator: Funny thing is, Christians have no problem with Atheists displays.
Mega Steve: here's one I playfully dubbed "Surface to Air Jesus"
Z-clipped: cassanovascotian: When you define yourself as categorically "against religion" you lose a lot of yours.a. I have not done so. I have defined myself as categorically against religion in government. I
Z-clipped: Oh look, religious people acting like petulant children, with no one to blame for their loss of privileges but themselves.
Z-clipped: OK. I call it "offensively arrogant, presumptuous and self-involved".
Z-clipped: Then you're just as irrational and shortsighted as the religious dickheads that you're pretending not to be one of.
Z-clipped: Any attempt to paint that as "militant", "aggressive", "insulting" or "trolling" comes from an ignorant, unconsidered point-of-view...Z-clipped: cassanovascotian: Start treating all religious people as ignorant objects for ridicule and derision, undeserving of basic common courtesy --> I'm against you and will fight against you.OK, be my guest. No one in TFA is doing that,
Z-clipped: though we may not be progressing as quickly as some of us would like, these issues are under control and we can look forward to their resolution in the reasonably near future.
StoPPeRmobile: As long as you include murdering outgroups.
StoPPeRmobile: Word salad.or something
StoPPeRmobile: "I can't wait to share this new wonder. The people will all see its light. Let them all make their own music. The Priests praise my name on this night!"
Z-clipped: It tickles me when I see someone come to the realization that in a rational system, even "faith" can be quantified and given defined boundaries.
cassanovascotian: sooo... still trying to claim that you only want to avoid having religion pushed on you, and aren't trying to be openly insulting to people who just happen to believe something different from you on their own time? sure. Keep telling yourself that.
cassanovascotian: Let me make this clear to you: when you make the conflict about people's personal beliefs you're attacking something that they can't and won't change, and will get defensive about.
cassanovascotian: Under Control!? fark you man, people are still getting beat to death for being gay, The planet is melting down while Fox news claims global warming isn't happening, and the middle east is blowing up because of Conservative jack-wads intent on thumping their chest to jingoistic war-monging. But we can't even talk about that shiat, because you assholes have to make this whole thing about some stupid farking christmas display.
cassanovascotian: and while you continue to double-down on this petty little crusade of yours, you make it more difficult for people like me to deal with the problems that actually matter.
vactech: Are you sure you've actually read the Bible?
give me doughnuts: From the society you happen to live in.
Z-clipped: I am against religion intervening in government.
Z-clipped: These all stem from the same presupposition: that religion belongs in government.
I drunk what: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness... ~brainwashing cultist CREATIONIST
I drunk what: I drunk what: tl;dr
I drunk what: vactech: Are you sure you've actually read the Bible?i looked at the pictures
Z-clipped: Not a single one of them bashes religion in general.
Z-clipped: Quit hiding behind "other issues", man up, and discuss the topic at hand.
Z-clipped: We're making progress. The laws are on our side. The younger generation is on our side. Gay marriage will be legalized in every state during your lifetime. DADT is history. Environmental issues were one of the current president's major campaign pillars.
Z-clipped: We all fight the fights that matter to us in each particular context.
cassanovascotian: Notice how this conversation started when I said to one of you angry atheists:
cassanovascotian: Right, so, ok, so much for priorities
cassanovascotian: why don't we put aside inconsequential theological discussions and work together on said humanist concerns
cassanovascotian: So calling people "petulent children" isn't in any way an insult?
cassanovascotian: I drunk what: I've not come to bring peace, but a sword.
I drunk what: petulent children
I drunk what: and this has been going on for generations now
vactech: What to do, IDW?
vactech: also it translates better in Greek
I drunk what: vactech: also it translates better in Greekwell? we're waiting...
vactech: So it has a much more deeper meaning when you think of it.
I drunk what: vactech: So it has a much more deeper meaning when you think of it.um if you're looking for deeper meaning in original words shouldn't you be looking for the Aramaic words?חרבand more importantlyהתפלגותcuz ya know that's what (s)words doas for most people's desire for the peace of i'm ok you're ok, He did not come to bring you that/darn that Free Will
vactech: Technically you are correct
vactech: But I think you've missed the complex simile He was trying to convey here.
cassanovascotian: So calling people "petulent children" isn't in any way an insult?... k.
cassanovascotian: ok, let's cut to it then:
cassanovascotian: Issues that have tangible impact on human welfare and suffering matter. Your crusade doesn't.
cassanovascotian: You're pretending to care about these issues while contributing nothing but sabotage to their progress.
cassanovascotian: I've got other shiat to do,
I drunk what: and this has been going on for generations now (starting with the ME generation and fulfilled in the current emo-snowflakes
I drunk what: vactech: But I think you've missed the complex simile He was trying to convey here.*ears open*
vactech: but you need to open your heart IDW
vactech: Firstly, you are going about things backwards.
vactech: Secondly, we needn't concern ourselves with earthly logic when trying to understand Him.
vactech: John Knox
I drunk what: *heart open*now what?
I drunk what: vactech: Firstly, you are going about things backwards.how can we discover Him?
I drunk what: "get me out of this box!!1!"
I drunk what: whose logic ought we to use?
I drunk what: you stumped google, so you may need to elaborate on your source and more about the context of that quote
I drunk what: are you quoting the scottish clergyman who died in 1572?
vactech: Not "what", but "how".
vactech: Why don't you get with the "program", son?
vactech: Do you filter God through google to get your answers?
vactech: I think you answered your own question:
vactech: His Logic son. His.
vactech: Come in for the "big win"?
vactech: The important thing to remember is, Jesus said it, I believe it.
I drunk what: btw how long does this bit go on?
Z-clipped: It would be like killing a fly with a howitzer, but I DO still enjoy it when someone takes up your gauntlet. It tickles me when I see someone come to the realization that in a rational system, even "faith" can be quantified and given defined boundaries.
Gawdzila: Trolling Christians like this doesn't win you or your cause any friends
cassanovascotian: fark you man, people are still getting beat to death for being gay, The planet is melting down while Fox news claims global warming isn't happening, and the middle east is blowing up because of Conservative jack-wads intent on thumping their chest to jingoistic war-monging. But we can't even talk about that shiat, because you assholes have to make this whole thing about some stupid farking christmas display.
Z-clipped: What you don't seem to get is, THEY'RE LOSING. We're making progress.
cassanovascotian: Notice how this conversation started when I said to one of you angry atheists: "Hey buddy, why don't we put aside inconsequential theological discussions and work together on said humanist concerns" ? and what was the response I got?I drunk what: I've not come to bring peace, but a sword.
abb3w: 7th Day Adventist offshoot group, maybe?
abb3w: he's a Christian
abb3w: not everyone on Fark is an atheist.
abb3w: in which case, homosexuality should be a capital offense, there's no worries on climate change because God promised not to destroy humanity again
abb3w: Jesus is going to be back real soon
abb3w: It's not clear the attitudes are much, beyond that.
abb3w: By opposing them on even the small issues
abb3w: Gawdzila: Trolling Christians like this doesn't win you or your cause any friendsThere's anecdata giving existence cases; whether it's a net gain is more questionable.Are you aware of any sociological studies measuring the impact?
Gawdzila: No, although I think that kind of misses the point.
Gawdzila: It almost certainly doesn't make Christians happy with you, and as much as I think their beliefs are nonsense there is also value in promoting harmony with thy neighbor.
Gawdzila: It seems to me that the more people see how atheists can also be kind and agreeable people, the more they will be generally accepted and the more it undermines the typical hogwash about atheists being bad immoral people without god's teachings.
abb3w: Gawdzila: No, although I think that kind of misses the point.For an empiricist? Not really.
abb3w: It's almost as amusing how shocked some atheists are to realize that they do take some points on "faith" -- though not necessarily the particular points (nor anywhere near as much) that Christians claim.
abb3w: Some. The demographics are shifting, at least. It's not clear the attitudes are much, beyond that.
Gawdzila: as much as I think their beliefs are nonsense there is also value in promoting harmony with thy neighbor.
Gawdzila: People are obstinate. If you come at them with the argument "NO YOU'RE WRONG" they will push back, almost no matter what it is you're saying. If you make the same point in a less confrontational way you are still educating them, but people who are open to changing their minds will do so more quickly and naturally since it feels like it is something they came to on their own and not an idea that has been inflicted upon them.
Gawdzila: You're so busy being condescending
Gawdzila: you apparently overlooked that the entire point of my post was that you can be assertive without being a complete douche
Gawdzila: If you make the same point in a less confrontational way you are still educating them, but people who are open to changing their minds will do so more quickly and naturally since it feels like it is something they came to on their own and not an idea that has been inflicted upon them.
Z-clipped: Along with the demographic shift on social issues, there's also a relative decline in numbers among people who identify as religious, is there not? Or perhaps I should say, a growing percentage that identify as non-religious?
abb3w: Of course, this is Fark a sign of the times, so most people aren't inclined to the effort.
abb3w: For that: the assorted ad campaigns show no matter how inoffensive anyone is in asserting themselves, the xians are outraged.
abb3w: Any reaction at all is going to be considered to be douchery of some form, by people reacting to motes with beams in their own eyes.
abb3w: the is-ought bridge seems beyond the scope of a dying thread
abb3w: Empirically, there are occasions where a more confrontational approach can be more more effective.
abb3w: The demographics are shifting on degree of religious identification
I drunk what: i've spent weeks trying to convince xians, that speaking the Truth =/= being offensive
I drunk what: let me just put it this way, i have actually referred to you (without naming names) as a person who understands significant parts of Christianity better than they do
I drunk what: completely glossing over whether or not identification has any correlation with knowledge-ability
I drunk what: what do you suppose those numbers would actually look like if i were to tell you that of group X, only 20% of those that claim to be X actually are...?
abb3w: Of course, there's some difference between "knowledge" and understanding.
abb3w: Matthew 7:16-20?
abb3w: If you're referring to
abb3w: the first question is what basis you use to identify the 20%.
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