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(Telegraph)   ♫ Noel ♫ noel, ♪ noel ♪♫ let debaters debate ♫♪ Long is their journey into the depths of hell .♪♫ Noel ..♪♫...noel♪♫ ....Well, you get the point by now   (telegraph.co.uk) divider line
    More: Interesting, noel, conjunctions, Bethlehem, New Testament  
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3716 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Dec 2010 at 10:04 AM (11 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



37 Comments     (+0 »)
 
2010-12-11 10:07:01 AM  
Slow not-news day?
 
2010-12-11 10:07:35 AM  
But if the Virgin Mary was a Komodo dragon - which the New Testament at no stage denies - the story is entirely plausible.

See, it's always the Lizard People!
 
2010-12-11 10:08:31 AM  
hateonme.files.wordpress.comView Full Size
 
2010-12-11 10:10:00 AM  
So I'm not a religious dude.
I do, however, like a good story; and things like this are just petty and stupid.

For those of us that don't believe in God, we all get that the story doesn't make a lot of sense. For those that do, none of this is relevant.

But maybe, just maybe it's not something that needs to be explained away. It's a good story with some interesting metaphors and a decent moral. Personally, I can accept it as that and move on.
 
2010-12-11 10:10:53 AM  

FunkOut: But if the Virgin Mary was a Komodo dragon - which the New Testament at no stage denies - the story is entirely plausible.

See, it's always the Lizard People!


So does this make V a bible story?
 
2010-12-11 10:12:07 AM  

fairleym: FunkOut: But if the Virgin Mary was a Komodo dragon - which the New Testament at no stage denies - the story is entirely plausible.

See, it's always the Lizard People!

So does this make V a bible story?


I'm not sure if it's violent enough to qualify.
 
2010-12-11 10:25:38 AM  
It's a great story, and I loved it as a kid...but it seems so obvious to me now that the whole thing was invented WELL after the life of Jesus (if he existed at all) to compete with other mystery-cult virgin-birth stories. Or possibly the story of Jesus just got wrapped up in the stories of Mithras and Osiris over the years.
 
2010-12-11 10:50:19 AM  
Human parthenogenesis would only produce female offspring.

This would actually explain a lot about Jesus.
 
2010-12-11 10:50:58 AM  
But if the Virgin Mary was a Komodo dragon - which the New Testament at no stage denies - the story is entirely plausible.


media.ziptied.comView Full Size


Case closed.
 
2010-12-11 10:56:48 AM  
FTA: Two possible explanations are: a conjunction of Jupiter and Venus, which would have taken place about 2BC, and would have appeared as a single bright star; and a supernova, which was recorded by Chinese astronomers in 5BC.

Shouldn't both of those dates be 0BC?? otherwise, what the hell is the point of referencing the date of EVERYTHING to the birth of a storybook character if the character was born 2-5 years after the story takes place??!?

Oh, wait, they don't have the Jesus in Asia or the Middle East...

/heathen
//proud of it.
 
2010-12-11 11:11:48 AM  
Meanwhile, back at the jobsite: "You were what? Born of a virgin? Ha ha ha, pick up your hammer and saw and gbtw..."
 
2010-12-11 11:15:59 AM  

mab1823: It's a great story, and I loved it as a kid...but it seems so obvious to me now that the whole thing was invented WELL after the life of Jesus (if he existed at all) to compete with other mystery-cult virgin-birth stories. Or possibly the story of Jesus just got wrapped up in the stories of Mithras and Osiris over the years.


you would be right, if you weren't wrong.

okay....Throughout the Old Testament are many verses which foretell the life of the Messiah (Jesus). If they were unfilled at his birth, then the entire OT/NT could be thrown out. But they weren't. They were fulfilled as required. Why? Because it was ordained by God. It is how we know Jesus is the Messiah.
 
2010-12-11 11:19:25 AM  

SouthernManDunWrong: mab1823: It's a great story, and I loved it as a kid...but it seems so obvious to me now that the whole thing was invented WELL after the life of Jesus (if he existed at all) to compete with other mystery-cult virgin-birth stories. Or possibly the story of Jesus just got wrapped up in the stories of Mithras and Osiris over the years.

you would be right, if you weren't wrong.

okay....Throughout the Old Testament are many verses which foretell the life of the Messiah (Jesus). If they were unfilled at his birth, then the entire OT/NT could be thrown out. But they weren't. They were fulfilled as required. Why? Because it was ordained by God. It is how we know Jesus is the Messiah.


nashath.netView Full Size
 
2010-12-11 11:21:55 AM  
He's *not* the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!
 
2010-12-11 11:28:15 AM  

SouthernManDunWrong: mab1823: It's a great story, and I loved it as a kid...but it seems so obvious to me now that the whole thing was invented WELL after the life of Jesus (if he existed at all) to compete with other mystery-cult virgin-birth stories. Or possibly the story of Jesus just got wrapped up in the stories of Mithras and Osiris over the years.

you would be right, if you weren't wrong.

okay....Throughout the Old Testament are many verses which foretell the life of the Messiah (Jesus). If they were unfilled at his birth, then the entire OT/NT could be thrown out. But they weren't. They were fulfilled as required. Why? Because it was ordained by God. It is how we know Jesus is the Messiah.


Oh...and if Tatsuma shows up, he'll rip you a new one on that topic.
 
2010-12-11 11:34:51 AM  
Brian: I'm not the Messiah! Will you please listen? I am not the Messiah, do you understand? Honestly!
Girl: Only the true Messiah denies His divinity.
Brian: What? Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am the Messiah!
Followers: He is! He is the Messiah!
Brian: Now, fark off!
[silence]
Arthur: How shall we fark off, O Lord?
 
2010-12-11 11:36:29 AM  
http://pw2.netcom.com/~horse/prophecy.htm

Jesus wasn't prophesied to be born near the winter solstice, so its hard to be an Outraged Christian(tm) when someone points out that a winter birth is unsupported by facts. The Bible is clear that the magi did NOT come the night of His birth, so I've got no problems when that gets pointed out. Bible never says the earth is flat (shut up, we still use the phrase "4 corners of the earth... go look at a compass) and in fact there are verses where it's pretty obvious the earth is round. Same with possible other habitated worlds... I have never read there was ONLY life on earth.

I -like- that people are using their scientific reasoning abilities to focus on "the problem of Jesus". Some results I can research and agree with, some I have to reject b/c of methodology, and some I have to reject because they conflict with the singular "a priori" evidence of who Jesus is: the Old Testament (specificially the prophesies listed at the above link). That makes me a chump only so far as assuming Darwinian evolution or a causeless "big bang" or some other past event makes a biologist or a physicist chumpish. We all have faith in different things, and believe it to be the right thing. I take the time to research alternative points of view and i hope that everyone has the good sense to seriously do the same.

n any case, heathens had Christmas first, they can have it now.. don't mean nothing to God or Jesus... holidays are for US, not for Him. It's good for us to have Sundays, holidays, to reflect on important things (thanksgiving, joy, family, our Lord) but they're not required, there's no ritual we have to follow to get to Him. We don't have to go to church, we don't have to pay, we don't have to do anything... and in fact, can't do anything worthwhile without His hand in it. Be humble of heart, and earnest, and He'll meet you where you're at.

I have no idea what i just typed.. hope it made sense.
 
2010-12-11 11:38:11 AM  
mab1823:
... invented... to compete with other mystery-cult virgin-birth stories. Or possibly the story of Jesus just got wrapped up in the stories of Mithras and Osiris over the years.

What mystery cult virgin birth stories pre-date the rise of Christianity? Osiris was divine, not born into humanity. Roman Mithras (nothing to do with the Persian god whose name was attached) is contemporary or later than the rise of Christian society (and he was born from the cosmic world-egg anyway)

I don't really see any non-Christian precedent in the birth story (aside from the most general similarities). Of course its a myth, but its the Christian myth.
 
2010-12-11 11:46:56 AM  

OhioKnight: mab1823:
... invented... to compete with other mystery-cult virgin-birth stories. Or possibly the story of Jesus just got wrapped up in the stories of Mithras and Osiris over the years.

What mystery cult virgin birth stories pre-date the rise of Christianity? Osiris was divine, not born into humanity. Roman Mithras (nothing to do with the Persian god whose name was attached) is contemporary or later than the rise of Christian society (and he was born from the cosmic world-egg anyway)

I don't really see any non-Christian precedent in the birth story (aside from the most general similarities). Of course its a myth, but its the Christian myth.


Sorry...maybe "miraculous birth" would've been more accurate.

Link (new window)
 
2010-12-11 11:49:50 AM  
FTA: But if the Virgin Mary was a Komodo dragon - which the New Testament at no stage denies - the story is entirely plausible.

I, for one, welcome our new Reptilian Savior!
 
2010-12-11 11:51:41 AM  

OhioKnight:
What mystery cult virgin birth stories pre-date the rise of Christianity? Osiris was divine, not born into humanity. Roman Mithras (nothing to do with the Persian god whose name was attached) is contemporary or later than the rise of Christian society (and he was born from the cosmic world-egg anyway)

I don't really see any non-Christian precedent in the birth story (aside from the most general similarities). Of course its a myth, but its the Christian myth.


Zoroaster was said to have been God-begotten and virgin born, as was Mithras, Herakles and Perseus.

There is nothing original about Christian myths, and no rational reason for believing they're true. It's about as true as celebrating the birth of someone who may not have even existed, on the wrong day. So remember the true reason for Christmas this year..
 
2010-12-11 12:05:57 PM  

Kali-Yuga: So remember the true reason for Christmas this year..


Yes, trying to stave off seasonal depression due to lack of sunlight with lots of lights, sparkly things, presents, goodies, drink, feasting, and trying to have a happy loving feeling with friends and family.

Face it, if there was nothing on the go in the dead of winter, things would be pretty grim.
 
2010-12-11 12:06:19 PM  
smbc-comics.comView Full Size
 
2010-12-11 12:10:03 PM  

FunkOut: Kali-Yuga: So remember the true reason for Christmas this year..

Yes, trying to stave off seasonal depression due to lack of sunlight with lots of lights, sparkly things, presents, goodies, drink, feasting, and trying to have a happy loving feeling with friends and family.

Face it, if there was nothing on the go in the dead of winter, things would be pretty grim.


^ pretty much that, right there, and applying across the totality of human history and anthropology.
 
2010-12-11 12:24:58 PM  
I thought Jebus was a Pisces?
 
2010-12-11 12:53:07 PM  
Some one in the article comments posted a link to this story. I thought I would repost it here it is kind of fitting in a way.

http://faculty.winthrop.edu/kosterj/engl510/star.htm
 
2010-12-11 1:52:56 PM  
logophile: .. Bible never says the earth is flat (shut up, we still use the phrase "4 corners of the earth... go look at a compass)

On the other hand, we don't still say that pi = 3, or that birds are bats, or that hares and coneys chew their cud, yet the Bible makes those "facts" prettly clear

Same with possible other habitated worlds... I have never read there was ONLY life on earth.

I'm sure you read the part where there's only ONE world - Earth - and everything else is just fixed lights in the sky.
 
2010-12-11 1:54:11 PM  
(pardon me, ".. or that bats are birds". Yay for a lack of edit function. On the other hand, I never said my written word was divinely inspired perfect truth!)
 
2010-12-11 2:04:39 PM  
"Virgin" had a broad definition back in those days. It had less to do with sex and more to do with being married. The Vestal Virgins were holy sex workers who never married but offered themselves in ritual intercourse as the goddess manifested on earth. Mary was not married when her son was conceived. Joseph was a family friend who volunteered to make her an honest woman.
//oh, and Jesus was born in the spring, when all the lambs were being born. The Catholic Church co-opted all the Pagan holidays, just as they built their cathedrals on all the Pagan power sites. They were really quite clever in that way. Do you really think it is a coincidence that Jesus supposedly rose from the dead in the middle of the pagan holidays that celebrated rebirth?
 
2010-12-11 2:09:14 PM  

Emcee_Squared: logophile: .. Bible never says the earth is flat (shut up, we still use the phrase "4 corners of the earth... go look at a compass)

On the other hand, we don't still say that pi = 3, or that birds are bats, or that hares and coneys chew their cud, yet the Bible makes those "facts" prettly clear

Same with possible other habitated worlds... I have never read there was ONLY life on earth.

I'm sure you read the part where there's only ONE world - Earth - and everything else is just fixed lights in the sky.


where does it say pi = 3?

Linnean classification wasn't invented at the time of writing...'owph' is the word translated as bird, and comes from root word meaning "to fly".. a pretty logical way to separate animals (flyers versus none).. flying insects also fell under that catagory.

the hare thing.. i had to do some quick research. the key words are gerah (cud) and alah (bring up, ascend up, carry up, cast up, fetch up, get up, recover, restore, take up. Apparently rabbits and such eat their partially-digested poop on a fairly regular basis, to get a second or more shot at getting nutrients?

The stars and planets "as a sign"... yeah, very handy for us still, right? and not so much handy as a cosmic map of vacation destinations.. there's no "...and that's the only reason they're there". I've said before: you can tell God's hand in the thing easiest by seeing all the myriad good that comes from all concerned. For example an act of charity just doesnt do good for the person in need, but for the giver. a viewer of the act might be "un scrooged" to also do something good, and so on. So a constellation can be very useful to us but that doesn't have to be the whole entire reason it's there. we just dont know.
 
2010-12-11 2:14:23 PM  

Kali-Yuga: Zoroaster was said to have been God-begotten and virgin born, as was Mithras, Herakles and Perseus.


I did say "mystery cults".

And I don't believe anybody ever suggested Heracles' or Perseus' mom was a virgin after BIG DADDY ZEUS got his stuff got all up in there.

As for Mithras, he was rock-born, so yeah I guess that's virgin birth (I mean... ow).

You probably know more than I do about Zoroaster -- I was not under the impression that he was generally considered divine in the ancient world.

I can't think of anything really similar to the Christian narrative outside of India.
 
2010-12-11 3:04:52 PM  

logophile: where does it say pi = 3?


1st Kings 7:23

"And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about."

Incidentally, you missed my point about life on other worlds -- there can be no life on other worlds according to the Bible, because there ARE no other worlds according to the Blble. Just the Earth and lights in the firmament.

I've said before: you can tell God's hand in the thing easiest by seeing all the myriad good that comes from all concerned. For example an act of charity just doesnt do good for the person in need, but for the giver. a viewer of the act might be "un scrooged" to also do something good

A good Christian wouldn't be doing charity in public, if Matt 6:2-4 is to be believed.
 
2010-12-11 3:16:26 PM  

Meerlar: FTA: Two possible explanations are: a conjunction of Jupiter and Venus, which would have taken place about 2BC, and would have appeared as a single bright star; and a supernova, which was recorded by Chinese astronomers in 5BC.

Shouldn't both of those dates be 0BC?? otherwise, what the hell is the point of referencing the date of EVERYTHING to the birth of a storybook character if the character was born 2-5 years after the story takes place??!?

Oh, wait, they don't have the Jesus in Asia or the Middle East...

/heathen
//proud of it.


history lesson of the day.
on the julial and gregorian calendars there is no year 0. the first concept of year 0 as it relates to calendar years didnt even come up as an idea until around 525a.d. when dionysius exiguus was working on calculating easter tables.
 
2010-12-11 3:17:14 PM  
bah, dang typos
 
2010-12-11 3:21:41 PM  

Emcee_Squared: logophile: where does it say pi = 3?

1st Kings 7:23

"And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about."

Incidentally, you missed my point about life on other worlds -- there can be no life on other worlds according to the Bible, because there ARE no other worlds according to the Blble. Just the Earth and lights in the firmament.

I've said before: you can tell God's hand in the thing easiest by seeing all the myriad good that comes from all concerned. For example an act of charity just doesnt do good for the person in need, but for the giver. a viewer of the act might be "un scrooged" to also do something good

A good Christian wouldn't be doing charity in public, if Matt 6:2-4 is to be believed.


no. a 'good' Christian wouldn't be doing it publicly in order to Be Recognised for the act according to Matthew 2

So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.

you can tell the nuanced but very actual different there, right? You dont think it's mandating that only good works performed behind a curtain count, do you?

also, can you see that if someone lived by a rigid code like that, because they were so busy 'storing up treasure in heaven' that they would AVOID doing a good work in the light (because hey, that one wouldn't 'count'), that that's pretty assed-backwards and totally against what Jesus' message in toto is?
 
2010-12-11 3:32:12 PM  

Emcee_Squared: logophile: where does it say pi = 3?

1st Kings 7:23

"And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about."


Math is hard : ( but here's where someone seemed to address this question.. http://www.purplemath.com/modules/bibleval.htm

also, planets:
And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." (Gen 1:14-15).

i don't know the Hebrew origin of "let them serve" but i am betting that it doesn't translate literally as "let them serve ONLY for..."
 
2010-12-11 8:49:05 PM  
Thought this guy had cleared this all up for us already
gothamist.comView Full Size
 
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