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(Some Guy)   Patent office rejects perpetual motion machine that was rejected by the patent office that rejects perpetual motion machines that are rejected by patent offices   (thisissomerset.co.uk) divider line
    More: Interesting, flywheels, energy requirements, power supplies, free energy, production costs, rotors, perpetual motion, aviation  
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4603 clicks; posted to Fandom » on 17 Sep 2010 at 4:39 AM (10 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2010-09-17 2:32:59 AM  
Can something really be classified as a perpetual motion machine if it relies on gravity as these guys claim? I'll believe this when I see it (and not just a video), but I don't think you can call that perpetual motion. Assuming the parts would never wear out...well, the earth will someday.
 
2010-09-17 2:38:31 AM  
I predict a lot of thermodynamics fail in this thread.
 
2010-09-17 3:10:15 AM  
The machine, largely created out of leftover bicycle parts and a windscreen-washer motor uses high-powered magnets and a series of flywheels to apparently create energy from gravity.

Yeah, but it uses the energy contained in the magnets. It takes energy to make a magnet you know....

/didn't read any further - didn't need to
 
2010-09-17 3:35:29 AM  

yogaFLAME: I predict a lot of thermodynamics fail in this thread.


t0.gstatic.comView Full Size

In this thread, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
 
2010-09-17 4:11:23 AM  
Nice headline
 
2010-09-17 4:58:05 AM  

yogaFLAME: I predict a lot of thermodynamics fail in this thread.

 
2010-09-17 5:19:05 AM  
Even if it's possible to create a machine that can spin indefinitely once started (and I highly doubt that until room temperature super-conductors / super-fluidity becomes available), if the machine doesn't gradually increase its speed, then it's entirely farking useless. What energy could you possibly extract that wouldn't kill it?

/Overthinking this far too much for a friday night
 
2010-09-17 5:54:04 AM  

SJKebab: Even if it's possible to create a machine that can spin indefinitely once started (and I highly doubt that until room temperature super-conductors / super-fluidity becomes available), if the machine doesn't gradually increase its speed, then it's entirely farking useless. What energy could you possibly extract that wouldn't kill it?

/Overthinking this far too much for a friday night


See, the laws of thermodynamics will never allow such a thing to happen in this Universe. That's why you have to open up a dimensional rift into a lower dimension were the amount of energy you use in this dimension has more of a punch. This influx of energy displacement should be enough to ripe the space-time fabric. Hopefully we tap into a a parallel universe were the laws of thermodynamics are different, no friction. Utilizing multiple dimensional rifts we can pinch off a small portion of this Universe.2, creating a bubble that exists in Universe.1 but with the laws of Universe.2. We place said perpetual motion machine in this bubble and spin. Now we have perpetual energy, maybe enough to not only power a neighborhood, but also to sustain our Universe Bubble.

"But, wildsnowllama," you ask, "Where do we get the energy to start said bubble?"

The answer is simple. Time Travel.

"But what if said rift backfires and destroys our Universe?"

Well then that Time Traveler wouldn't have come back to help us, would he/she/it?

Also, Time Cube.
 
2010-09-17 6:01:46 AM  

yogaFLAME: I predict a lot of thermodynamics fail in this thread.


Technically perpetual motion is completely possible, it's just impossible to extract work from it and have it remain perpetual.

Just sayin'.

//Hooray thermodynamics
 
2010-09-17 6:07:57 AM  

Jim_Callahan: yogaFLAME: I predict a lot of thermodynamics fail in this thread.

Technically perpetual motion is completely possible, it's just impossible to extract work from it and have it remain perpetual.

Just sayin'.

//Hooray thermodynamics


This thread's going to get out of control...
 
2010-09-17 6:08:45 AM  

Jim_Callahan: //Hooray thermodynamics


I'll say hooray when someone figures out how to reverse entropy.
 
2010-09-17 6:39:00 AM  
That is patently ridiculous ;)
 
2010-09-17 6:44:57 AM  
That's nothing.

Here's a REAL man's perpetual motion machine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklight_Power

/haven't run through the math though, *maybe* Mills is right
//the $70mil in venture capital he has makes me want to cry. or at least punch the next free market apologist i see in the face.
 
2010-09-17 6:50:23 AM  
"The law that entropy always increases, holds, I think, the supreme position among the laws of Nature. If someone points out to you that your pet theory of the universe is in disagreement with Maxwell's equations - then so much the worse for Maxwell's equations. If it is found to be contradicted by observation - well, these experimentalists do bungle things sometimes. But if your theory is found to be against the second law of thermodynamics I can give you no hope; there is nothing for it but to collapse in deepest humiliation. " Sir Arthur Stanley Eddington
 
2010-09-17 7:19:50 AM  
I am not sure I get what the breakthrough is.

With a reasonable set of bearings and everything in balance, you could probably keep a few thousand pounds spinning with a motor from a model airplane...once you get it started. The motor supplies energy that is lost as heat in the bearings, and air resistance. That seems to be what this does.

The problem is when you try to "harness" this machine to do any work. A generator converts kinetic energy into electrical energy- or to put it another way, it will load down whatever is spinning it.

This is why turning on your headlights causes your gas mileage to go down (by a very small amount). The car's generator always spins, being driven by the engine...but generating more electricity to power the lights makes the generator harder to turn-using more gas.

It is also why regenerative braking works on hybrids.
 
2010-09-17 7:34:09 AM  
frowns on your shenanigans
i230.photobucket.comView Full Size
 
2010-09-17 7:36:42 AM  

YoungLochinvar: That's nothing.

Here's a REAL man's perpetual motion machine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklight_Power

/haven't run through the math though, *maybe* Mills is right
//the $70mil in venture capital he has makes me want to cry. or at least punch the next free market apologist i see in the face.


Jealous much?
 
2010-09-17 7:55:12 AM  
Just another example of the man trying to keep us down.
 
2010-09-17 8:10:40 AM  

wildsnowllama: This thread's going to get out of control...


It will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it.
 
2010-09-17 8:11:04 AM  
If you can patent "One Click Checkout", why can't you patent a perpetual motion machine?
 
2010-09-17 8:13:54 AM  
MC Escher would like a word.
upload.wikimedia.orgView Full Size
 
2010-09-17 8:22:25 AM  

wildsnowllama: Lots of misspelt crazy....
...Also, Time Cube.


This post deserves more love.
 
2010-09-17 8:36:23 AM  
It's a big world with lots of countries.
 
2010-09-17 8:46:03 AM  

Jim_Callahan: yogaFLAME: I predict a lot of thermodynamics fail in this thread.

Technically perpetual motion is completely possible, it's just impossible to extract work from it and have it remain perpetual.

Just sayin'.

//Hooray thermodynamics


WRONG!
 
2010-09-17 8:52:54 AM  
What is this...crazy week? First the geocentricism crowd, now this. Are the flatearthers holding a convention next week?
 
2010-09-17 8:54:45 AM  
oh the huge entropy!

got nothing other than the ever-ringing bell. two voltaic piles with a bell on the bottom, and a steel ball suspended from a thread between them. been ringing since the late 1700s. perpetual, yes. able to do work, not nearly quite so much.

i seem to recall a clock that worked on atmospheric pressure too.
 
2010-09-17 8:56:25 AM  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklight_Power

Gee, I hope not. If there is a process for "allowing their electrons to fall to smaller radii around the nucleus with a release of energy that is intermediate between chemical and nuclear energies." a single drop of the catalyst dropped into the ocean would create a column of plasma which would continue to burn for thousands of years until every bit of water on earth was consumed.

Of course that such a thing has never been observed by astrophysicists anywhere in the universe, never occurred naturally on earth and is in fundamental disagreement with widely accepted and proven theories of chemistry and physics does give one hope for our survival.

/I'll take well funded crazy people for $800 Alex.
 
2010-09-17 8:56:40 AM  

ghost_who_walks: What is this...crazy week? First the geocentricism crowd, now this. Are the flatearthers holding a convention next week?


They were, but they couldn't agree on a place because of distance issues.
 
2010-09-17 8:57:07 AM  

ghost_who_walks: What is this...crazy week? First the geocentricism crowd, now this. Are the flatearthers holding a convention next week?


Hey, putting the Earth at the center of your frame of reference is perfectly valid. All that does is make your math really, REALLY complicated.

Trying to claim that you can break even on an entropy equation? No.
 
2010-09-17 9:12:28 AM  

mr_a:
With a reasonable set of bearings and everything in balance, you could probably keep a few thousand pounds spinning with a motor from a model airplane...once you get it started. The motor supplies energy that is lost as heat in the bearings, and air resistance. That seems to be what this does.


You can do even better with magnetic bearings and sealing everything in a vacuum. In a low enough friction environment you could spin up a 20 ton flywheel with an rc motor, it would just take a really long time.
 
2010-09-17 9:14:06 AM  
I invented a perpetual inertia machine. Once you set it in motion, it's guaranteed to stay in motion*, and once you stop it, it's guaranteed to stay at rest*. It's great at parties, and provides hours of amusement. Amaze your friends! Impress women! Get that promotion you've always wanted!

*Unless acted upon by an outside force.
 
2010-09-17 9:18:09 AM  

impaler: Yeah, but it uses the energy contained in the magnets. It takes energy to make a magnet you know....


farking magnets, how do they work?
 
2010-09-17 9:46:29 AM  
The patent office denied a patent claim?

This is a first.
 
2010-09-17 9:49:39 AM  
Is this the thread that everyone says, (read in dopey voice) "I knew this idea has existed for years, I'm so smart that I can tell you how to build one right now, derp herp....."
 
2010-09-17 9:56:01 AM  

Jim_Callahan: Technically perpetual motion is completely possible, it's just impossible to extract work from it and have it remain perpetual.


Thank you.

SJKebab: I'll say hooray when someone figures out how to reverse entropy.


Easy. Reverse time.

Although since "time's arrow" and entropy are effectively the same thing, the advice probably isn't all that helpful.

Baryogenesis: The law that entropy always increases


It doesn't. The correct statement is that entropy doesn't decrease statistically. It's perfectly welcome to hold equal or to have localized aberrations.

impaler: Yeah, but it uses the energy contained in the magnets


What? No it doesn't. Magnetic fields do no work.
 
2010-09-17 10:06:13 AM  
Excellent timing, for me - I'm writing a thesis this semester on the Utility requirement for patents found in 35 USC 101 and Office rejections of incredible inventions like perpetual motion machines. My proposition - if it doesn't work, it's impossible for anyone to ever infringe, so the patent is useless and any rejection based on lack of utility is therefore irrelevant; but if someone could infringe, then it works, and any rejection based on lack of utility is therefore improper. Thus, there are no relevant proper rejections for lack of utility, and the Office should take the position of, if it believes a device violates the laws of physics, they should do a cursory search and grant the bastard... The Office gets the search/exam/issue fees for very little effort, which means they can focus more on real inventions.

"But, wait, Theaetetus... don't we have an interest in not giving out patents for fraudulent 'snake-oil' inventions?"

Nope. Under the Juicy Whip case, that's the job of the SEC, FDA, or consumer protection agencies, not the Patent Office.
 
2010-09-17 10:10:08 AM  
My perpetual motion machine is simple.
Replace the moon with a magnet of equal size and shape. Hell, paint it the same color for aesthetics.
Now wrap a giant coil of copper wire around the Earth along the path the moon takes around it.
The earth and moon make a perpetual motion electrical generator.
Easy.

My friends think I am mad for creating a teleportation device for the sole purpose of opening a self storage business in caves under the desert. Or building a time machine just to get the fried apple pies from 80's MacDonald's.
 
2010-09-17 10:16:20 AM  
Incidentally, one of the categories of inventions that used to be included in the "reject out of hand" pile with perpetual motion and time machines was Hair Restoration products. They were rejected because everyone knows you can't make hair grow on a bald man. Then Rogaine came out. Ooops.
 
2010-09-17 10:34:18 AM  
I met some guy in the construction business once who claimed to have it all worked out. Of course he had to find time to finish his prototype in the basement and of course it involved magnets. None of that was amazing. What was amazing is that a mechanical engineer, with a PE, had bought into his bullshiat.

I wanted to tell the engineer to take his diploma and PE license and burn them because they were apparently worthless, and his having them shamed the profession.
 
2010-09-17 10:37:15 AM  

wildsnowllama: See, the laws of thermodynamics will never allow such a thing to happen in this Universe. That's why you have to open up a dimensional rift into a lower dimension were the amount of energy you use in this dimension has more of a punch. This influx of energy displacement should be enough to ripe the space-time fabric. Hopefully we tap into a a parallel universe were the laws of thermodynamics are different, no friction. Utilizing multiple dimensional rifts we can pinch off a small portion of this Universe.2, creating a bubble that exists in Universe.1 but with the laws of Universe.2. We place said perpetual motion machine in this bubble and spin. Now we have perpetual energy, maybe enough to not only power a neighborhood, but also to sustain our Universe Bubble.


The Gods Themselves - Isaac Asimov
 
2010-09-17 10:37:36 AM  
First off, the first law of thermodynamics has been abridged in many legitimate works to include e=mc^2 (you know, that whole "we can use mass as energy" deal). The patent office really needs to get with the 1950s already. If nothing else they should have them bring in the device for an examination. There's no reason why the 2nd law of thermodynamics needs to be true as it can be disobeyed statistically - though it just has never come out that way (the statistical equivalent of the slightly flawed Maxwell's demon so-to-speak).

Second, I know a guy who has many bullshiat patents just like this. The weird part is that he ALSO had his own starter company called "alpha omega *insert whatever here*." I'm really hoping this isn't the same guy. I appreciated the time machine patents. Those were nice. I also liked his theory on how to destroy the solar system by breaking a super string which he claimed a professor said would work.

I care not for insanity or undue scientific certainty, let it be tested. It's all we can do. Usually it's just an error in power conversion (Look! I turned a low voltage into a high one! There's more power here than there was before!).
 
2010-09-17 10:38:17 AM  

alaric3: My perpetual motion machine is simple.
Replace the moon with a magnet of equal size and shape. Hell, paint it the same color for aesthetics.
Now wrap a giant coil of copper wire around the Earth along the path the moon takes around it.


Another idea is to make a really big bubble that holds a mixture of 2 (or more) different materials (gasses/liquids/whatever) that when placed in orbit just so create large tidal forces and heat within the bubble. Extract and go.

/Armchair Astroengineer's personal assistant
 
2010-09-17 10:42:38 AM  

Rawry: wildsnowllama: See, the laws of thermodynamics will never allow such a thing to happen in this Universe. That's why you have to open up a dimensional rift into a lower dimension were the amount of energy you use in this dimension has more of a punch. This influx of energy displacement should be enough to ripe the space-time fabric. Hopefully we tap into a a parallel universe were the laws of thermodynamics are different, no friction. Utilizing multiple dimensional rifts we can pinch off a small portion of this Universe.2, creating a bubble that exists in Universe.1 but with the laws of Universe.2. We place said perpetual motion machine in this bubble and spin. Now we have perpetual energy, maybe enough to not only power a neighborhood, but also to sustain our Universe Bubble.

The Gods Themselves - Isaac Asimov


Well Holy shiat. It's quite tough to come up with something original. :/

Thanks for the link!
 
2010-09-17 10:44:39 AM  
Here is my perpetual motion machine, where's my patent?

stoptherobbery.comView Full Size
 
2010-09-17 10:44:56 AM  
I think people have a little too much faith in the infallibility of the laws of physics. Let's not forget that the big bang is a huge wild card, and it probably should have tempered some of the smug of those who think creation of energy is a 100% impossibility. But then again, this is fark and few people here are willing to admit that their lifelong held concept of reality might not be correct.
 
2010-09-17 10:45:58 AM  

Random Guy: Here is my perpetual motion machine, where's my patent?


Was it first in public use more than a year ago? 35 USC 102b bars you from patenting it. :P
 
2010-09-17 10:48:32 AM  

Theaetetus: Random Guy: Here is my perpetual motion machine, where's my patent?

Was it first in public use more than a year ago? 35 USC 102b bars you from patenting it. :P


Curses! Foiled again.

Actually I think NTP beat me to it anyway.
 
2010-09-17 10:51:25 AM  

BraveNewCheneyWorld: I think people have a little too much faith in the infallibility of the laws of physics. Let's not forget that the big bang is a huge wild card, and it probably should have tempered some of the smug of those who think creation of energy is a 100% impossibility. But then again, this is fark and few people here are willing to admit that their lifelong held concept of reality might not be correct.


Bingo, this goes right along with the long-dead theories on flight being limited to particular densities because all evidence pointed that direction: "Only relatively low density things have been observed to fly with their own propulsion, therefor only low density things can fly with their own propulsion." The longer a notion has been around the more people accept it as true rather than observed.
 
2010-09-17 11:07:58 AM  

alaric3: My perpetual motion machine is simple.
Replace the moon with a magnet of equal size and shape. Hell, paint it the same color for aesthetics.
Now wrap a giant coil of copper wire around the Earth along the path the moon takes around it.
The earth and moon make a perpetual motion electrical generator.
Easy.

My friends think I am mad for creating a teleportation device for the sole purpose of opening a self storage business in caves under the desert. Or building a time machine just to get the fried apple pies from 80's MacDonald's.


We already draw electrical energy from the moon like that, but we use gravity instead of magnetism.
Link (new window)
 
2010-09-17 11:23:25 AM  
Man, it feels like this thread is never going to end.
 
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