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(USA Today)   In the opening Peace Talks salvo, Palestinians promise to increase mortar shelling for the benefit of Israeli civilians. Israelis respond with a F16 Dove carrying a 500lb olive branch   (usatoday.com) divider line
    More: Obvious, palestinians, Gaza, Israelis, warplanes, Mahmoud Abbas, u.s. secretary of state, Benjamin Netanyahu, Likud  
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5485 clicks; posted to Politics » on 15 Sep 2010 at 6:53 PM (10 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2010-09-15 4:20:24 PM  
Not to get all nuanced and hair-splitty, but "Hamas" does not equal "all Palestinians".
 
2010-09-15 5:26:25 PM  

Cagey B: Not to get all nuanced and hair-splitty, but "Hamas" does not equal "all Palestinians".


And there are different types of Muslim sects, such as Sunni or Shi'ite, but such nuances are utterly lost on some people.
 
2010-09-15 5:47:26 PM  
I'd say it's much more likely that Eagles fans and Giants fans will start having homosexual sex with each other than that these peace talks will get anything done.
 
2010-09-15 6:57:06 PM  

Cagey B: Not to get all nuanced and hair-splitty, but "Hamas" does not equal "all Palestinians".


Guess who the Palestinians elected into power.
 
2010-09-15 6:57:06 PM  
I LOL'd subby. +1.

Cagey B: Not to get all nuanced and hair-splitty, but "Hamas" does not equal "all Palestinians".


Debatable. Abbas's term of office expired in January of 2009. He refuses to hold new elections because it is highly likely that the PLO would be replaced by Hamas...at least that is the fear. That is also why you don't hear anyone on this side of the pond complaining or pointing out that he is the illegitimate president of the Palestinians.
 
2010-09-15 6:58:12 PM  
We're really not very certain of what's happening until the great Tatsuma materials, pulls an indeterminate number of connected hankies out of his sleeve, and explains what this all means.

/rapt
 
2010-09-15 7:00:27 PM  
or materializes. duRp.
 
2010-09-15 7:02:38 PM  

OgreMagi: Cagey B: Not to get all nuanced and hair-splitty, but "Hamas" does not equal "all Palestinians".

Guess who the Palestinians elected into power.


So I guess "Democratic Party" equals "all Americans" by your logic.
 
2010-09-15 7:03:31 PM  
Mideast peace talks round ends with no deal

I'm shocked. A Palestinian government led by a political party whose charter calls for the replacement of Israel and the Palestinian Territories with an Islamic Palestinian state somehow can't make a peace deal with Israel.
 
2010-09-15 7:03:40 PM  
this is still going on?
 
2010-09-15 7:06:15 PM  

farkeruk: I'm shocked. A Palestinian government led by a political party whose charter calls for the replacement of Israel and the Palestinian Territories with an Islamic Palestinian state somehow can't make a peace deal with Israel.


It's Israel's fault for not getting into the ovens. We could have done this in a way that kept Obama's hands clean, but NOOOOOOO, the Israelis just HAD to sabotage the peace deal with their selfish will to live.
 
2010-09-15 7:07:49 PM  

Cagey B: Not to get all nuanced and hair-splitty, but "Hamas" does not equal "all Palestinians".


goddamn hippie liberal commie
 
2010-09-15 7:07:57 PM  

m2313: OgreMagi: Cagey B: Not to get all nuanced and hair-splitty, but "Hamas" does not equal "all Palestinians".

Guess who the Palestinians elected into power.

So I guess "Democratic Party" equals "all Americans" by your logic.


Enough Palestinians support the Hamas stance to put them in power. That means a majority support genocide.

If a political party in the US was a perfect match for my political beliefs, except they added "kill all the jews", I would vote against them regardless of everything else.
 
2010-09-15 7:08:17 PM  
Hmm... why are we wasting our time with 'peace talks'? For one this country is hardly the shining example to follow... and for two, outside interference isn't going to stop them from killing each other.
 
2010-09-15 7:08:49 PM  

Tatterdemalian: farkeruk: I'm shocked. A Palestinian government led by a political party whose charter calls for the replacement of Israel and the Palestinian Territories with an Islamic Palestinian state somehow can't make a peace deal with Israel.

It's Israel's fault for not getting into the ovens. We could have done this in a way that kept Obama's hands clean, but NOOOOOOO, the Israelis just HAD to sabotage the peace deal with their selfish will to live.


what's the difference between a jew and a pizza?

a pizza doesn't scream when you put it in the oven

/kinda sorry
 
2010-09-15 7:09:15 PM  
Why doesn't Isreal just annex the currently held territory, and say "Any settlers found outside these areas are not us."
 
2010-09-15 7:09:24 PM  
Even if a deal was struck with Fatah, that doesn't change the fact that Hamas will not agree to it, making it irrelevant.

All of this being relevant in and of itself has long as the PA doesn't accept the fact that the Right of Return is not going to happen, and millions of Arabs won't become new Israeli citizens overnight.
 
2010-09-15 7:09:33 PM  

OgreMagi: Cagey B: Not to get all nuanced and hair-splitty, but "Hamas" does not equal "all Palestinians".

Guess who the Palestinians elected into power.


THIS

why are fark liberals so farking ignorant?
 
2010-09-15 7:09:46 PM  
All these adults argue and then children die. Sad, sad, sad. It's the way of the world though I suppose.
 
2010-09-15 7:12:55 PM  
"Negotiate Peace between Israel and Palestine" must be on some mandatory presidential checklist. To my recollection every president in the past 40 years has made a shot at it with no success. I'm thinking that our best bet will be to let global warming make the polar regions habitable and then move the Palestinians south and the Israelites north.
 
2010-09-15 7:12:57 PM  

Andrew Wiggin: Tatterdemalian: farkeruk: I'm shocked. A Palestinian government led by a political party whose charter calls for the replacement of Israel and the Palestinian Territories with an Islamic Palestinian state somehow can't make a peace deal with Israel.

It's Israel's fault for not getting into the ovens. We could have done this in a way that kept Obama's hands clean, but NOOOOOOO, the Israelis just HAD to sabotage the peace deal with their selfish will to live.

what's the difference between a jew and a pizza?

a pizza doesn't scream when you put it in the oven

/kinda sorry


you think that is even worth typing... you are a lost soul.
 
2010-09-15 7:15:07 PM  
SO RAPT!
 
2010-09-15 7:16:30 PM  
Well it is kind of our fault for backing Israel and allowing them to take most of the land from Palestine. But don't forget that it was an international effort after WWII.
 
2010-09-15 7:17:14 PM  
Violence in the Middle East is still news?
 
2010-09-15 7:17:47 PM  
Neither side is gonna make this situation easier. Any way to put a dome over them so they're stuck together and not bothering the rest of us?

If so, can I get a smaller one? I'm in the market for something that keeps Wilford Brimley's evil minions off my lawn.
 
2010-09-15 7:31:42 PM  

stirfrybry: OgreMagi: Cagey B: Not to get all nuanced and hair-splitty, but "Hamas" does not equal "all Palestinians".

Guess who the Palestinians elected into power.

THIS

why are fark liberals so farking ignorant?


You mean the Palestinians forced into Gaza? Or the Palestinians who live in the West Bank? Or the Palestinians that live abroad and have no vote and no right of return? The Palestinians who live inside Israel and have no vote? Which Palestinians are we talking about?

Why are Zionists so farking one-sided?
 
2010-09-15 7:39:29 PM  
img62.imageshack.usView Full Size
 
2010-09-15 7:39:43 PM  

TheShavingofOccam123: stirfrybry: OgreMagi: Cagey B: Not to get all nuanced and hair-splitty, but "Hamas" does not equal "all Palestinians".

Guess who the Palestinians elected into power.

THIS

why are fark liberals so farking ignorant?

You mean the Palestinians forced into Gaza? Or the Palestinians who live in the West Bank? Or the Palestinians that live abroad and have no vote and no right of return? The Palestinians who live inside Israel and have no vote? Which Palestinians are we talking about?

Why are Zionists so farking one-sided?


There are enough muslims living in Israel and have citizenship to vote in at least one muslim MP.

Why are anti semitics so farking brain dead?
 
2010-09-15 7:50:38 PM  
Israel is negotiating with the PLO, who doesn't represent Palestinians. Netanyahu is calling the shots for the Israeli side, and is known as a hardliner who supports the settlers. The US is acting as a mediator, but unlike past exercises came to the table empty handed, with no roadmap.

It's as if China was mediating a freeze on foreign aid between North Korea and George Bush, who attended without Obama's backing. It's just grandstanding, nobody is serious.

The two state solution has become tired and stale. Israel negotiates while building settlements, the Palestinians negotiate while building bombs. It goes nowhere.

What we need is a new breed of Palestinian leaders who insist on a one state solution. Israel gets all of the Palestine, but the Palestinians get Israeli citizenship. This should be paired with non violent resistance and constant comparisons between Israel and South Africa during apartheid. That's a winning strategy with a high chance of success.

The hardliners in Israel are very much against this, in fact its practically a worst case scenario for them, as they believe Israel would lose its Jewish identity. But that's a good thing, because it forces them to propose alternatives in good faith. And if the negotiations go nowhere, by default the one state becomes a reality as the settlements grow and international pressure solidifies. Time becomes on the Palestinian's side instead of against it.

As for the Palestinians, Israeli citizenship would be far better than accepting the weak remnants of a gerrymandered state. And the Arabs know how to deal with mixed religous neighbors; Lebanon has a high Christian population for example. It's not a bad solution for them.

A one state solution... I believe that's the answer. Two state goes nowhere.
 
2010-09-15 7:52:55 PM  

SomeAmerican: Israel gets all of the Palestine, but the Palestinians get Israeli citizenship.


That won't happen because Israel has already rejected "the right of return" because the muslim population would overnight become a majority and they could vote to institute sharia law.
 
2010-09-15 7:54:25 PM  

Tatsuma: Even if a deal was struck with Fatah, that doesn't change the fact that Hamas will not agree to it, making it irrelevant.

All of this being relevant in and of itself has long as the PA doesn't accept the fact that the Right of Return is not going to happen, and millions of Arabs won't become new Israeli citizens overnight.


I could foresee the possibility of a permanent two-state solution with the West Bank, with Hamas in Gaza keeping on Hamasing.

What does a Palestinian Right of Return to Palestine have to do with Israeli citizenship?
 
2010-09-15 7:54:29 PM  
IS-RA-EL! IS-RA-EL! IS-RA-EL!

/no, actually serious.
 
2010-09-15 7:59:23 PM  

SomeAmerican: Israel is negotiating with the PLO, who doesn't represent Palestinians.


Actually Israel is negotiating with the PA, which is dominated by Fatah, who is dominated by the PLO

SomeAmerican: Netanyahu is calling the shots for the Israeli side, and is known as a hardliner who supports the settlers.


Uh, no Bibi is not known as a hardliner who supports the settlers. He certainly isn't known as either a hardliner and, nowadays, a supporter of settlers either.

Bibi, during his first time as a Prime Minister, was much more softer on the residents of Gaza, Judea and Samaria than Yitzhak Rabin. He sent the IDF much less inside, authorized less strikes and targeted assassinations, all while working to improve their economic situation and ease the pains caused by the roadblocks.

All things that the Left before him didn't do

SomeAmerican: The US is acting as a mediator, but unlike past exercises came to the table empty handed, with no roadmap.


You are right

SomeAmerican: What we need is a new breed of Palestinian leaders who insist on a one state solution. Israel gets all of the Palestine, but the Palestinians get Israeli citizenship.


This is never going to happen. Israelis will never accept. Never. Never ever.

We will never accept the dissolution of the world's only Jewish State in order to create the world's 24th Arab State and 53rd Muslim country, where Jews are relegated as a minority while people like Hamas are elected as democratic representatives.

fark that. Literally over our dead bodies.

SomeAmerican: The hardliners in Israel are very much against this, in fact its practically a worst case scenario for them


The hardliners?

Even the far-left is against this, the only ones who agree are the communists. And Arabs. Not even half of them, by the way, as most Israeli Arabs realize how much better life is under a Democratic, Jewish Israel than it would be if directed by Hamas or Fatah.

That's why they hate Lieberman so much and are scared of him

SomeAmerican: And the Arabs know how to deal with mixed religous neighbors


You mean constant persecution?

The Ahmadi Muslim sect, founded in 1889 in India, now numbers tens of millions of believers, mostly living outside the Arab world. "We believe in a tolerant, friendly and rational Islam," says Muhammad Sharif, head of the Ahmadis in Israel. Former Haifa Mayor Amram Mitzna notes that among this community there is "no incitement, violence, or feeling the need to conquer the whole world."

Yet members of the sect who live in the Palestinian Authority have been suffering from incessant persecution, confiscation of property, and physical violence during the past year. Muhammad Jaabri, 46, of Hebron, a married father of four, explains: "They have repeatedly written threats and curses on the walls of my house. They've burned my car twice, thrown rocks at my windows." A month ago Jaabri was attacked by a group of radical religious youth near his home. "They beat me with clubs, and I was in the hospital for days." After his release, "I went to the police to file a complaint and they sent me to PA security service investigators, where I was beaten again and jailed."

Muhammad Alawi, 34, from Tulkarm, was summoned to a PA Sharia court with his wife, who is not from an Ahmadi family, where she was ordered to leave her husband and return with her three children to her own family, who had initiated the legal proceedings.


SomeAmerican: A one state solution... I believe that's the answer.


We will never accept it.
 
2010-09-15 7:59:40 PM  

TheShavingofOccam123: Or the Palestinians that live abroad and have no vote and no right of return?


Why would you want to return to Palestine? It's a desert country, run by gangsters with few human rights, no job and a good chance that the guy next door has a cache of explosives.

I'd be glad to have gotten out of there.
 
2010-09-15 8:01:30 PM  

indylaw: What does a Palestinian Right of Return to Palestine have to do with Israeli citizenship?


When they talk about the 'Right of Return', they talk about the right to return inside of pre-1948 Israel and live there as citizens.

Why would I or anyone care about immigration inside a theoretical Arab state? No one in Israel cares whether or not they allow the descendants of refugees to come and live in their newly founded state.

We absolutely refuse the idea of allowing close to 10 million Arabs to come and become Israeli citizens overnight, only to democratically undue the state, unify with the newly created Arab state and become one Muslim country where Jews are once again a persecuted minority.

Never.
 
2010-09-15 8:04:01 PM  

Tatsuma: indylaw: What does a Palestinian Right of Return to Palestine have to do with Israeli citizenship?

When they talk about the 'Right of Return', they talk about the right to return inside of pre-1948 Israel and live there as citizens.

Why would I or anyone care about immigration inside a theoretical Arab state? No one in Israel cares whether or not they allow the descendants of refugees to come and live in their newly founded state.

We absolutely refuse the idea of allowing close to 10 million Arabs to come and become Israeli citizens overnight, only to democratically undue the state, unify with the newly created Arab state and become one Muslim country where Jews are once again a persecuted minority.

Never.


That was my question. Out of curiosity (and I'm not calling you a liar), do you have a link to something where the PLO is demanding an Arab Right of Return to Israel in addition to a separate Arab state concurrently?
 
2010-09-15 8:05:35 PM  
Israel accepting the Right of Return, or a One-State solution (both one and the same) is even less likely than Obama suddenly calling a press conference tonight, and sacrificing his firstborn daughter to Moloch live on national television.
 
2010-09-15 8:06:59 PM  

Tatsuma: Israel accepting the Right of Return, or a One-State solution (both one and the same) is even less likely than Obama suddenly calling a press conference tonight, and sacrificing his firstborn daughter to Moloch live on national television.


Silly Tatsuma, Obama clearly worships Ba'al.
 
2010-09-15 8:07:12 PM  

indylaw: That was my question. Out of curiosity (and I'm not calling you a liar), do you have a link to something where the PLO is demanding an Arab Right of Return to Israel in addition to a separate Arab state concurrently?


... please, don't take that as an insult, but...

How the heck can you say that you have been following this issue closely for years now if you are unaware of basically what is the biggest point of contention between Israel and the PA, even more than Jerusalem?

I'll find you links, but I am amazed but you have never heard of this before. Seriously puzzled.

What the f...
 
2010-09-15 8:08:40 PM  
Indylaw, start on the Wiki about it
 
2010-09-15 8:10:38 PM  
 
2010-09-15 8:11:16 PM  

Tatsuma: indylaw: That was my question. Out of curiosity (and I'm not calling you a liar), do you have a link to something where the PLO is demanding an Arab Right of Return to Israel in addition to a separate Arab state concurrently?

... please, don't take that as an insult, but...

How the heck can you say that you have been following this issue closely for years now if you are unaware of basically what is the biggest point of contention between Israel and the PA, even more than Jerusalem?

I'll find you links, but I am amazed but you have never heard of this before. Seriously puzzled.

What the f...


No, Tats, I know that that has been a request in the past. I was looking for a link specifically that that was a demand in the current round of negotiations. Like you said, the Arab Right of Return within Israel is equivalent to a one-state solution, which stands in contrast to the two-state solution. I was asking for the current state of things, since you seem to read more sources that I do. In the news covering the talks lately, I have not seen the demand for Arab Right of Return in addition to a free West Bank state.

No offense taken.
 
2010-09-15 8:11:55 PM  
CPUYODA

Hey now, Jaime Farr rules. He was the only funny character on MASH.

/his Cleopatra costume had me in stitches
 
2010-09-15 8:13:21 PM  

Tatsuma: Mahmoud Abbas has declared a week ago that he would resign before abandoning the Right of Return


Point well taken. Thanks. That doesn't make any sense and I can understand how Israeli negotiators have no idea what to do with that.
 
2010-09-15 8:14:40 PM  

indylaw: I was looking for a link specifically that that was a demand in the current round of negotiations.


The interview followed one in the Ramallah-based Al-Ayyam newspaper on Monday, where Abbas said that if he was forced to concede on key issues such as refugees or borders during the next round of direct negotiations with Israel, he would "pack my bags and leave."

They have always been asking for this and they have never ever not made it central to any future treaty with Israel.
 
2010-09-15 8:18:44 PM  

Tatsuma: indylaw: I was looking for a link specifically that that was a demand in the current round of negotiations.

The interview followed one in the Ramallah-based Al-Ayyam newspaper on Monday, where Abbas said that if he was forced to concede on key issues such as refugees or borders during the next round of direct negotiations with Israel, he would "pack my bags and leave."

They have always been asking for this and they have never ever not made it central to any future treaty with Israel.


See, it's links like this that led to the confusion. "Key issues such as refugees or borders" is pretty ambiguous and the article gives no context. It had been my understanding that "refugees" meant "refugees to Palestine."

The first link you provided is much more specific.
 
2010-09-15 8:21:20 PM  

Tatsuma: We absolutely refuse the idea of allowing close to 10 million Arabs to come and become Israeli citizens overnight, only to democratically undue the state, unify with the newly created Arab state and become one Muslim country where Jews are once again a persecuted minority.



Scared to be treated like Palestinians?
 
2010-09-15 8:21:30 PM  

farkeruk: TheShavingofOccam123: Or the Palestinians that live abroad and have no vote and no right of return?

Why would you want to return to Palestine? It's a desert country, run by gangsters with few human rights, no job and a good chance that the guy next door has a cache of explosives.

I'd be glad to have gotten out of there.


thepilotwoman.files.wordpress.comView Full Size


At least the light is good there.
 
2010-09-15 8:21:54 PM  
Elder of Ziyon has a good list of 'elephants in the room' that are currently sitting mostly ignored by people who advocate a 2-State solution

Elephant 1: Hamas controls Gaza
Fayyad dismisses this in two paragraphs that don't say anything of substance:

People in Gaza are looking at us as well, and saying they also want to have a better life. Look at how fragmented we are in the West Bank, but Gaza you can cover from north, south, east, and west 10-20 times a day. What took us a year to do in the West Bank can be accomplished in two months in Gaza.

"Who would have thought a couple years ago there would be this transformation in the mind-set? Not many thought that possible. All you have to do is travel beyond Ramallah and see for yourself. It's a changed reality.


He is ignoring Hamas completely, implying that a declared state will magically make Hamas disappear and melt into the PA. The only problem is that there is no basis to believe that in reality. His declared "state" would include a territory that is ruled by terrorists, and he would demand that the world recognize it as if it was under PA control.

In addition, the only change in PalArab West Bank mindset, as far as I could tell, is economic, not political. I have yet to see a single example of Arabic comments on stories about Gaza aggression that are remotely peaceful. Plenty of people hate Hamas but no one is against killing Jews to the extent that they would say so publicly.

And the economic boom in the West Bank is because of Netanyahu, not Fayyad.

Elephant 2: Palestinian Arabs elected a terror government
Elephant 3: The current PA government was not elected
Elephant 4: The current PA government has almost no power
Elephant 5: The PA is being kept alive by artificial methods


All of these issues are continuously ignored. There are no elections on the horizon. The last elections not only chose Hamas for a national government but also for practically every local government outside Ramallah. The legality of the current PA is questionable even within the PA's own laws. And the PA still gets the bulk of its support from the West, not from its own people.

Fayyad has been working on building institutions, a move that was decades overdue. But he has no political support from within. He has no following. He is not a member of Fatah, and in the end, Fatah is the power behind the PA - and the PA is not independent but it answers to the PLO, another little fact that the West is unaware of or ignores.

Elephant 6: Fatah remains a terrorist group paid by the PA

The Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades has been keeping a lower profile but it has not been dismantled. In Gaza, Hamas has arrested much of its leadership, but in the West Bank it is simply waiting for the opportunity to re-emerge.

Elephant 7: The first - and second - stages of the roadmap were never implemented

Fayyad's plan is explicitly rejecting the roadmap and is a unilateral action. This means, of course, that Israel could do the same. If Israel annexes the large settlement blocs - a move that the vast majority of Israelis support - then the declared Palestinian Arab state would start off without any borders.

Elephant 8: The PA's goal remains the destruction of Israel

I don't believe that this is Fayyad's goal, but it is Abbas' goal, as can be seen by his actions. It is Fatah's goal and it is the PLO's goal. And in the end, Abbas is Fayyad's boss.

Elephant 9: Jerusalem

It might have moved to the forefront, so it is not as ignored as it was, but it remains the major point of disagreement. The PA's requirements on Jerusalem is an indication that a state is not its goal, as a state could function just fine with Ramallah as its capital. Their insistence on Jerusalem is simply meant to disassociate Jerusalem from Judaism.

Elephant 10: What happened to Gaza when Israel withdrew

Gaza could have become a Singapore when Israel left. Instead, it became Afghanistan. The only thing that has kept the West Bank relatively stable over the past few years has been the presence and threat of the IDF - but the world has forgotten what the West Bank was like while the intifada raged and the "peaceful" PA was in charge.

Elephant 11: Palestinian Arab "unity"

Unless the PA gives up on Gaza, Hamas has effective veto power over any moves made by the PA. Any "unification" agreement - which is no closer today than it was last year or two years ago - would inevitably mean that the PA positions would harden to accommodate Hamas. And Hamas is never going to give up on its desire for destroying Israel sooner rather than later. Just they would then have access to more American weapons.

Elephant 12: The Palestinian Arab "diaspora" and Arab intransigence

Fayyad states that his state would welcome Palestinian "refugees." This means that the Arab policy of not granting statehood to those who choose not to move to "Palestine" would become untenable. This would mean that Arab nations like Syria and Lebanon would have a choice: offer citizenship to the hundreds of thousands of "Palestinians" who live within their borders, or force them all to move to "Palestine" where they would quickly overwhelm the existing infrastructure.

And very possibly radicalize the minority who really does accept Israel.

This elephant will grow large indeed.

Elephant 13: Economics

This is something that has improved. Even so, the Palestinian Arab economy is far from self-sustaining and the attitude of entitlement is still there, especially in the camps that many still live in - even under PA control. Add the thousands of new residents and we have a big problem.

Elephant 14: Gaza demographics

Gazans are still having lots of kids, and nowhere to put them. Most will not want to move to the West Bank, where the culture is different, and Egypt won't take them. they will continue to use this to pressure Israel even if somehow Gaza comes under the PA.

Elephant 15: Palestinian Arab leaders never showed interest in independence

If we take Fayyad at his word, then exactly one has. As mentioned, he has no constituency within his own people. He was never even elected.

And it is hard to take Fayyad at his word, when he answers a question this vaguely:

Q: What are you doing to stop incitement against Israel?

A: Incitement can take the form of many things - things said, things done, provocations - but there are ways for dealing with this. We are dealing with this.


Too bad he cannot give a single example.

Fayyad points to another very large elephant that hadn't been mentioned:

Elephant 16: A unilateral Palestinian Arab state would be militarized

In the interview Fayyad says the Palestinians want an independent and sovereign state, emphasizing they are "not looking for a state of leftovers - a Mickey Mouse state."

This is a codeword for a full army and full control over airspace. Fayyad's state would allow him or his radical successor to invite Syria to position anti-aircraft weapons within its territory; to shoot missiles at El Al planes landing a few miles from the Green Line, or to get a few thousand tanks poised to cut Israel in half.

Iran already effectively controls Gaza, Lebanon and Syria. They would use the nascent state of Palestine to position themselves on the West Bank as well. Just like the PA ran away from Gaza at the first sign of trouble, so would they abandon their state to Iranian proxies and Islamic terrorists.

Their will to defend themselves is not nearly as strong as their will to destroy Israel, a desire that has been inculcated in them for generations. Palestinian Arab nationalism is a fundamentally weak and externally-imposed construct. Iran is poised and anxious to take advantage of the chaos that would follow a unilaterally declared state.

But the West is ready to risk Israel for that elephant as well.
-----

The 17th Elephant certainly is the Right of Return.
 
2010-09-15 8:22:42 PM  

indylaw: See, it's links like this that led to the confusion. "Key issues such as refugees or borders" is pretty ambiguous and the article gives no context. It had been my understanding that "refugees" meant "refugees to Palestine."

The first link you provided is much more specific.


Well, just so you know in the future, when they talk about refugees, they always mean the Right of Return.
 
2010-09-15 8:24:24 PM  

Tatsuma: indylaw: See, it's links like this that led to the confusion. "Key issues such as refugees or borders" is pretty ambiguous and the article gives no context. It had been my understanding that "refugees" meant "refugees to Palestine."

The first link you provided is much more specific.

Well, just so you know in the future, when they talk about refugees, they always mean the Right of Return.


Cheers.
 
2010-09-15 8:26:53 PM  
Can we just face facts, Israel is going to get the land and there's basically nothing that's going to prevent them from doing so. It's a simple matter of time. There will not be "two states", there will not be a co-op state that is run by both parties. Israel will be a Jewish state and will tolerate the Palestinians that wish to abide by their rules.

I imagine this almost akin to what happened to the Native Americans here during the westward expansion years just a bit less bloodier and not a lot of sympathy going around, but I will give credit to Israel for at least attempting to bring the Palestinians into the fold time and time again without blatantly making them take a hike into the Mediterranean.
 
2010-09-15 8:27:08 PM  
Oh and just in case anyone thought 'Well, you know, Israelis are so adament about not accepting the Right of Return, surely the other side could agree to compensation in exchange or alternatives to the Right of Return, right?', well, stop dreaming

14) Do you think that the Palestinians must renounce their right of home return, which Israel will never accept, in exchange for having an independent Palestinian state and the conclusion of a peace deal with Israel?

1. Yes, the Palestinians must do that 14.0%
2. No, they shouldn't do that even if the price would be the non- conclusion of a peace deal with Israel 81.7%

15) If the Palestinian leadership would waive the right of home return in exchange for a financial compensation, would you accept or refuse that?

1. I would accept that 13.1%
2. I would refuse that 81.8%

There is not going to be peace for a long long time.

The most Israel is willing to give is less than the least that they are ready to accept.
 
2010-09-15 8:31:49 PM  

Tatsuma: Israelis are so adament about not accepting the Right of Return, surely the other side could agree to compensation in exchange or alternatives to the Right of Return,


I bet you believe the Israelis didn't force out the Palestinians in 1948, and i bet you believe that the Israelis don't need to atone for this.

Right of return for the Jews - even converts

No Right of return for people and descendants of people displaced by zionists.
 
2010-09-15 8:44:03 PM  
You guys go on and argue the same argument you've been arguing here for years.

I wanted to say WHAT THE FARK happened to Hillary Clinton?

That picture makes her look like a freshly re-animated corpse.
 
2010-09-15 8:47:13 PM  

UNC_Samurai: Cagey B: Not to get all nuanced and hair-splitty, but "Hamas" does not equal "all Palestinians".

And there are different types of Muslim sects, such as Sunni or Shi'ite, but such nuances are utterly lost on some people.


It's likely they'll all be saying shiat before it's all over.
 
2010-09-15 8:49:06 PM  

durkzilla: You guys go on and argue the same argument you've been arguing here for years.

I wanted to say WHAT THE FARK happened to Hillary Clinton?

That picture makes her look like a freshly re-animated corpse.


She has chosen... poorly.
 
2010-09-15 8:54:31 PM  

Auto432: Tatsuma: Israelis are so adament about not accepting the Right of Return, surely the other side could agree to compensation in exchange or alternatives to the Right of Return,

I bet you believe the Israelis didn't force out the Palestinians in 1948, and i bet you believe that the Israelis don't need to atone for this.

Right of return for the Jews - even converts

No Right of return for people and descendants of people displaced by zionists.


I bet you believe the Jews alone were responsible for the creation of Israel. I also bet you believe that the locals living in the area prior the creation of Israel didn't leave based on rumors that the incoming Jews were up to no good.
 
2010-09-15 8:55:56 PM  
Remember when Joe Biden got pissed off at the settlements?
Then remember when the US couldnt even get the Israelis to completely stop settlements?
 
2010-09-15 9:01:26 PM  

ronaprhys: rumors


tatsuma can answer his own questions, unless you want to defend him. Or, perhaps you want to defend the Zionists and the displacement of Palestinians and denying the right of return to refugees while allowing it for a person with no connection to the land, just if they convert to the right form of Judaism?
 
2010-09-15 9:02:06 PM  

SomeAmerican:
What we need is a new breed of Palestinian leaders who insist on a one state solution. Israel gets all of the Palestine, but the Palestinians get Israeli citizenship. This should be paired with non violent resistance and constant comparisons between Israel and South Africa during apartheid. That's a winning strategy with a high chance of success.


You call suicide success??

indylaw: That was my question. Out of curiosity (and I'm not calling you a liar), do you have a link to something where the PLO is demanding an Arab Right of Return to Israel in addition to a separate Arab state concurrently?


It's all over the place. That's what they mean by the right of return. The idea of a right of return to the West Bank/Gaza makes no sense at all--they will control those areas anyway and thus Israel has no say about it.

indylaw:
No, Tats, I know that that has been a request in the past. I was looking for a link specifically that that was a demand in the current round of negotiations. Like you said, the Arab Right of Return within Israel is equivalent to a one-state solution, which stands in contrast to the two-state solution. I was asking for the current state of things, since you seem to read more sources that I do. In the news covering the talks lately, I have not seen the demand for Arab Right of Return in addition to a free West Bank state.


The vast majority of the world's press is horribly biased on anything to do with Israel. Little details like the fact that Abbas won't consider a real solution is rarely reported.

indylaw: Tatsuma: Mahmoud Abbas has declared a week ago that he would resign before abandoning the Right of Return

Point well taken. Thanks. That doesn't make any sense and I can understand how Israeli negotiators have no idea what to do with that.


The Israeli negotiators know the negotiations are meaningless, just like every time in the past. It's just an exercise in politics, nothing more. Until the Palestinians are willing to consider coexistence there's no point to peace talks.

Auto432: Tatsuma: We absolutely refuse the idea of allowing close to 10 million Arabs to come and become Israeli citizens overnight, only to democratically undue the state, unify with the newly created Arab state and become one Muslim country where Jews are once again a persecuted minority.


Scared to be treated like Palestinians?


The Jews would be *DEAD*.
 
2010-09-15 9:06:54 PM  

Loren: The Jews would be *DEAD*.


proof?
 
2010-09-15 9:09:21 PM  

Loren: The Jews would be *DEAD*.


No wait. Remember when Jews were the minority in Palestine (many, many years). Why weren't they eliminated then? Whoa!
 
2010-09-15 9:10:11 PM  

Auto432: tatsuma can answer his own questions, unless you want to defend him. Or, perhaps you want to defend the Zionists and the displacement of Palestinians and denying the right of return to refugees while allowing it for a person with no connection to the land, just if they convert to the right form of Judaism?


Actually I've read the history of the creation of Israel, warts and all. I don't deny that individual and small groups of Israelis acted in terroristic manners during the initial formation.

However, I also don't deny that the Palestinians (be that the PLO, Hamas, or other groups) routinely act in terroristic ways with the sole goal of killing Israeli civilians and have no problem (and in fact act in a manner designed to encourage this) having their own civilians (women and children) killed just so they can get some sympathy points from dullards.

Now, go learn history.
 
2010-09-15 9:13:00 PM  

Auto432: Loren: The Jews would be *DEAD*.

No wait. Remember when Jews were the minority in Palestine (many, many years). Why weren't they eliminated then? Whoa!


And there was no difference in mentalities, rulers, laws, and other circumstances that might cause actions to be different now vs then.
 
2010-09-15 9:13:39 PM  

ronaprhys: I don't deny that individual and small groups of Israelis acted in terroristic manners during the initial formation.


Small groups? Are you trying to absolve Zionists on the displacement of Palestinians as a whole by focusing on small groups?
 
2010-09-15 9:14:53 PM  

Auto432: ronaprhys: I don't deny that individual and small groups of Israelis acted in terroristic manners during the initial formation.

Small groups? Are you trying to absolve Zionists on the displacement of Palestinians as a whole by focusing on small groups?


You aren't even reading what I wrote.

Hint: You've created what we like to call a strawman. Try again.
 
2010-09-15 9:17:37 PM  
"The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland, and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live." - Mahmoud Abbas
 
2010-09-15 9:27:25 PM  

Tatsuma: Abbas


Says the guy who sidesteps the focus on Israeli responsibility for the displacement.

ronaprhys: strawman.


what strawman? You are trying to absolve one of the most uncomfortable points by dismissing it as a few bad people?

img820.imageshack.usView Full Size
 
2010-09-15 9:28:57 PM  
I say we pacify the area with a few thousand fuel air bombs and maybe a nuke or two. Kill both sides and you will finally know peace and they will know god.
 
2010-09-15 9:32:34 PM  

Auto432: ronaprhys: strawman.

what strawman? You are trying to absolve one of the most uncomfortable points by dismissing it as a few bad people?


You are obviously not interested in actually speaking about history in any sort of realistic manner. Hell, you can't even appropriately address what I actually posted without misrepresenting it. I'm not wasting my time with you.
 
2010-09-15 9:36:25 PM  

ronaprhys: You are obviously not interested in actually speaking about history in any sort of realistic manner. Hell, you can't even appropriately address what I actually posted without misrepresenting it. I'm not wasting my time with you.


You went on the point of the displacement about "I don't deny that individual and small groups of Israelis acted in terroristic manners during the initial formation."

The other stuff didnt deal with the displacement. Your point focused on a few bad people. I wanted to know if you thought you were absolving the whole group. Thats relevant. Get mad if you want to.
 
2010-09-15 9:40:49 PM  

Slaves2Darkness: I say we pacify the area with a few thousand fuel air bombs and maybe a nuke or two. Kill both sides and you will finally know peace and they will know god.


I wish to subscribe to your magazine...
 
2010-09-15 9:50:14 PM  
Oh man I'm so sick of violence in the middle-east! I wish they'd just stop

*daydreams about the deaths of hundreds of millions of people*
 
2010-09-15 9:55:05 PM  

Tatsuma: Oh man I'm so sick of violence in the middle-east! I wish they'd just stop

*daydreams about the deaths of hundreds of millions of people*


Tats, what's your vision of a peaceful resolution to all this?
 
2010-09-15 10:04:02 PM  
Hillary ensues...
 
2010-09-15 10:13:04 PM  

Auto432: Loren: The Jews would be *DEAD*.

No wait. Remember when Jews were the minority in Palestine (many, many years). Why weren't they eliminated then? Whoa!


Because they were proper second-class citizens then. Islam permits others to exist as second class citizens.

The problem is they rebelled against this status. Now they must be killed for it.

grinderman: Tatsuma: Oh man I'm so sick of violence in the middle-east! I wish they'd just stop

*daydreams about the deaths of hundreds of millions of people*

Tats, what's your vision of a peaceful resolution to all this?


Why do you assume there is a peaceful resolution? So long as the Islamist money continues to pour in there will be no peace.
 
2010-09-15 10:18:27 PM  

Loren:
grinderman: Tatsuma: Oh man I'm so sick of violence in the middle-east! I wish they'd just stop

*daydreams about the deaths of hundreds of millions of people*

Tats, what's your vision of a peaceful resolution to all this?

Why do you assume there is a peaceful resolution? So long as the Islamist money continues to pour in there will be no peace.


I'm not assuming anything. I asked Tatsuma what his vision of a peaceful resolution might be. His answer may well be, "there isn't one." But, I won't know that until he answers.
 
2010-09-15 10:20:39 PM  

Tatterdemalian: farkeruk: I'm shocked. A Palestinian government led by a political party whose charter calls for the replacement of Israel and the Palestinian Territories with an Islamic Palestinian state somehow can't make a peace deal with Israel.

It's Israel's fault for not getting into the ovens. We could have done this in a way that kept Obama's hands clean, but NOOOOOOO, the Israelis just HAD to sabotage the peace deal with their selfish will to live.


Actually it is the fault of the British. If Hitler had his way, the Jews would have kicked the British ass, so they had a place to live that wasn't Europe (please check what was the British protectorate of Palestine untill the current Israel was created).

OK, Hitler lost, but he managed one thing, or more...
 
2010-09-15 10:22:04 PM  

grinderman: Tats, what's your vision of a peaceful resolution to all this?


I posted a long version of it on fark, I'll see if I can find it

If not I'll start writing it again but can't promise I'll post it tonight
 
2010-09-15 10:22:55 PM  

spawn73: If Hitler had his way, the Jews would have kicked the British ass, so they had a place to live that wasn't Europe


My nose is bleeding after reading this. There are no words
 
2010-09-15 10:23:54 PM  

Tatsuma: grinderman: Tats, what's your vision of a peaceful resolution to all this?

I posted a long version of it on fark, I'll see if I can find it

If not I'll start writing it again but can't promise I'll post it tonight


Many thanks.
 
2010-09-15 10:24:33 PM  
Do not fear, brothers. Soon our beloved leader, Ahmadinejad, shall bestow upon those in strife the freedom enjoyed by Iranian citizens. All shall be made peaceful.
 
2010-09-15 10:39:23 PM  

Loren: Because they were proper second-class citizens then. Islam permits others to exist as second class citizens.

The problem is they rebelled against this status. Now they must be killed for it.


Oh, look, the dhimmitude argument.

In fact, many of these 4 percent of Jews in Palestine resented the zionists. Zionists established an exclusionary economy and focused on land purchases from absentee landlords. In fact the first conflicts between the Zionist immigrants and Arabs were on land ussues, like grazing and crops. As the movement grew, and the intentions to establish a exclusionary homeland were made clear, these conflicts escalated.
 
2010-09-15 10:42:16 PM  
The First Four Black Sabbath Albums
2010-09-15 05:47:26 PM

I'd say it's much more likely that Eagles fans and Giants fans will start having homosexual sex with each other than that these peace talks will get anything done.

***
So you're saying that there is actually at least good chance for peace then.
 
2010-09-15 10:47:14 PM  
spawn73 Quote 2010-09-15 10:20:39 PM

Actually it is the fault of the British. If Hitler had his way, the Jews would have kicked the British ass, so they had a place to live that wasn't Europe (please check what was the British protectorate of Palestine untill the current Israel was created).

OK, Hitler lost, but he managed one thing, or more...

>>>

What kind of history do they teach in Denmark? Apologist, it sounds like.
 
2010-09-15 10:49:09 PM  
Anybody have an over/under on these talks?
 
2010-09-15 11:10:06 PM  
The one state solution clearly is the only way to make a viable state out of that mess, the only catch is that the jews would pretty much have to do a Turkish solution to make sure that state was cleansed of the people currently in it and their culture.
 
2010-09-16 12:36:51 AM  

Auto432: Tatsuma: Abbas

Says the guy who sidesteps the focus on Israeli responsibility for the displacement.

ronaprhys: strawman.

what strawman? You are trying to absolve one of the most uncomfortable points by dismissing it as a few bad people?


And your point is? The maps you are so helpfully providing carry absolutely no meaningful information. The 1946 map shows a British Mandate territory sparsely inhabited by various tribes, but mostly empty and not *belonging* to anyone. The few patches of jewish population are refugees from Europe. In 1948 UN has given a large contiguous chunk of this land to establish a Jewish state with a provision for mass migration. It was populated by Jews by design through an international vote. The rest of the land in the map 2 went to Israel after its neighbors attacked it and then lost the war. So shut the fark up and keep working on your troll. It's weak
 
2010-09-16 12:56:23 AM  

RandomTux: The 1946 map shows a British Mandate territory sparsely inhabited by various tribes, but mostly empty and not *belonging* to anyone. The few patches of jewish population are refugees from Europe.


The "A land without a people for a people without a land" hasbara myth. There were hundreds of thousands of Arabs in Palestine.

RandomTux: In 1948 UN has given a large contiguous chunk of this land to establish a Jewish state with a provision for mass migration. It was populated by Jews by design through an international vote.


The United Nations does not appropriate to itself the authority to create states. The United Nations only authorizes itself to recognize states for membership, states that are formed or proclaimed by the people of said state.

Israel declared itself a state unilaterally on May 14, 1948 after the British speeded up their scheduled August departure and pulled their troops out of Palestine.

What is rarely mentioned is that the Security Council chose not to act on the General Assembly vote.

Now, since you (incorrectly) used UN non binding resolutions as an argumentative crutch, you will, no doubt, have no problems recognizing the UN resolutions

Res. 89 (Nov. 17, 1950) - Requests that attention be given to the expulsion of "thousands of Palestine Arabs" and calls upon concerned governments to take no further action "involving the transfer of persons across international frontiers or armistice lines", and notes that Israel announced that it would withdraw to the armistice lines.

Res. 242 (Nov. 22, 1967) - Emphasizes "the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war", emphasizes that member states have a commitment to abide by the U.N. Charter, and calls for the "Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied" during the June 1967 war.

Res. 252 (May 21, 1968) - "Deplores the failure of Israel to comply with" General Assembly resolutions 2253 and 2254, considers Israel's annexation of Jerusalem "invalid", and calls upon Israel "to rescind all such measures already taken and to desist forthwith from taking any further action which tends to change the status of Jerusalem".

UN Resolution 476 (1980) Condemning Israel's Occupation of East Jerusalem


and so on.
 
2010-09-16 1:00:03 AM  

RandomTux: Auto432: Tatsuma: Abbas

Says the guy who sidesteps the focus on Israeli responsibility for the displacement.

ronaprhys: strawman.

what strawman? You are trying to absolve one of the most uncomfortable points by dismissing it as a few bad people?


Lets see if you skip defining this "strawman" accusation again.
 
2010-09-16 1:24:16 AM  

Auto432:
RandomTux: In 1948 UN has given a large contiguous chunk of this land to establish a Jewish state with a provision for mass migration. It was populated by Jews by design through an international vote.

The United Nations does not appropriate to itself the authority to create states. The United Nations only authorizes itself to recognize states for membership, states that are formed or proclaimed by the people of said state.

Israel declared itself a state unilaterally on May 14, 1948 after the British speeded up their scheduled August departure and pulled their troops out of Palestine



From Wikipedia (new window)article (obviously suborned by Zionists): In November 1947, the United Nations voted in favor of the partition of Palestine, proposing the creation of a Jewish state, an Arab state, and a UN-administered Jerusalem. Partition was accepted by Zionist leaders but rejected by Arab leaders, leading to civil war. Israel declared independence on 14 May 1948 and neighboring Arab states attacked the next day

Auto432: RandomTux: The 1946 map shows a British Mandate territory sparsely inhabited by various tribes, but mostly empty and not *belonging* to anyone. The few patches of jewish population are refugees from Europe.

The "A land without a people for a people without a land" hasbara myth. There were hundreds of thousands of Arabs in Palestine.



There were comparable numbers
of jews and arabs. Your map conveniently uses area coverage without taking into account population density
 
2010-09-16 2:09:01 AM  

RandomTux: From Derpipedia


You still do not deal with the UN and how the United Nations does not appropriate to itself the authority to create states. The United Nations only authorizes itself to recognize states for membership, states that are formed or proclaimed by the people of said state.


RandomTux: There were comparable numbers of jews and arabs.


Derp 2. Your (not really good) source: Look at numbers of population for 1947 Jews constituted only 33%
1914 - Jews constituted under 8%

Arabs - hundreds of thousands.

You move on from "The 1946 map shows a British Mandate territory sparsely inhabited by various tribes," to showing a land with hundreds of thousands of people.

Did you just come from a birthright trip or something? Is that the reason for all this hasbara?
 
2010-09-16 2:44:46 AM  

UNC_Samurai: Cagey B: Not to get all nuanced and hair-splitty, but "Hamas" does not equal "all Palestinians".

And there are different types of Muslim sects, such as Sunni or Shi'ite, but such nuances are utterly lost on some people.


Not to mention the Christian Palestinians.

/or shall we just keep this about Islamophobia?
 
2010-09-16 9:20:02 AM  

Auto432: No wait. Remember when Jews were the minority in Palestine (many, many years). Why weren't they eliminated then? Whoa!


Because the Ottomans took dhimmitude seriously (as in, protecting non-Muslims as well as enslaving them). Sadly, the British weren't ruthless enough to do the same after WWI, which is why the non-Muslim communities ended up having to create groups like Irgun to fight both the murderous Palestinians and the incompetent victim-blaming British.
 
2010-09-16 11:23:01 AM  
Maybe several Giant ovens should give Israelis a hint?
 
2010-09-16 11:54:17 AM  

Cagey B: Not to get all nuanced and hair-splitty, but "Hamas" does not equal "all Palestinians".


To intentionally split your splitty split split, you were the first to say ""ALL Palestinians". Reading is fundamental.

UNC_Samurai: but such nuances are utterly lost on some people.


Also incapable of reading comp.
 
2010-09-16 3:16:47 PM  
i.usatoday.netView Full Size

President Mahmoud Abbas, right, meets with U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton at Abbas's office Thursday in Ramallah, West Bank.

/wrong
 
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