Skip to content
 
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(The New York Times)   Why the hell won't kids grow up these days? Warning: Originally ten pages, and still doesn't say why they won't get the hell off Subby's lawn   (nytimes.com) divider line
    More: Interesting  
•       •       •

8448 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Aug 2010 at 10:18 AM (10 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



148 Comments     (+0 »)
 


Oldest | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | » | Newest | Show all

 
2010-08-22 1:30:33 PM  

MrStarbuck: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: There are too many people, and not enough opportunities. Pretty simple, actually.

True, but the only thing people think of as "opportunities" are jobs working for someone else (corporations, university, government, etc.) Entrepreneurship, which made this country great, has been made increasingly difficult to attempt. Gone are the days where one could simply "hang out a shingle". The costs of starting a new business are so high that failure makes it nearly impossible to "dust yourself off" and try something else.



I can't help but think there is a level of bullshiat here. Some businesses are harder to start out than they used to be due to costs, but because of the internet, modern technology, easier access to knowledge about anything, there are many opportunities for entrepreneurs to start businesses out of their homes than there used to be.
 
2010-08-22 1:37:15 PM  

whistleridge: 1. They almost all have degrees, meaning their degrees are fairly worthless. Especially since there are basically only three types of jobs left: tech, medical and service. The folks that used to work skilled trades, manufacturing, heavy industry and other "non-college degree" jobs are now getting degrees because those jobs are gone.


Not all those jobs are gone, despite the best efforts of unions to kill off manufacturing and heavy industry. However, "skilled trade" jobs are now worked by illegal aliens because of a conscious decision by the federal government not to enforce immigration laws.
 
2010-08-22 1:48:01 PM  

LawrencePerson: Not all those jobs are gone, despite the best efforts of unions to kill off manufacturing and heavy industry. However, "skilled trade" jobs are now worked by illegal aliens because of a conscious decision by the federal government not to enforce immigration laws.


8/10
 
2010-08-22 2:11:12 PM  

Lux Lambert: None taken. You may yet be right. I've always had, as some other posters have pointed out, a nagging fear of failure that I really need to figure out how to excise. It's holding me back something fierce, and I'm trying to force myself to be less of a doormat anyway.

Re: passion, it's hard. Besides fiction-writing which is its own can of worms to be made fun of, all I can really say I'm truly passionate about is... birds... but birdkeeping doesn't really translate well to any particular jobs, except maybe being a vet or something. Who knows.

/i know you still don't care, but whatever, i admit you've got good points


Do yourself a favor and stay the hell away from the bullshiat academic rat race. I'm in science where the opportunities are 10x better than the humanities, but they STILL SUCK. It's a ponzi scheme and your reward at the end as a full professor is making 2/3 of the money as in the commercial world and you still put in more hours, because most of your grant proposals still will be rejected.

Guess what? You can 'teach' in any industry job. Aside from official 'training' type jobs, basically anyone has the opportunity to train and eventually manage subordinates. This can be very challenging and gratifying. I still consult at universities sometimes, and frankly I find the self-absorption of most of the professors pretty pathetic and laughable. They often have no clue of the world out there, and they engage in huge amounts of intellectual masturbation*.

And you will find your passions returning when you get away from the passion vacuum that is the academic world.

*as opposed to the good kind of masturbation
 
2010-08-22 2:12:11 PM  

itsfullofstars: My company has had an entry level Computer Science position open for months. We can get anyone remotely qualified to interview for it. The only interest has been from kids with bachelors in business, accounting, or "Computer Information Systems" with little more than remedial computer skills. I'd love to find a young military vet with some basic computer skills and build them into a good software designer but cant even find that.


I am sorry, but I simply do not believe your story. You say you are in Raleigh and - I might be naive - but to sit there and say that in all of Raleigh there is NOT ONE qualified computer science candidate to fill an entry software developer role is too far-fetched. NOT ONE college senior...in all of N. Carolina...to fulfill that role. I do not believe it. (And why a military vet? You sound picky as all-hell; I wouldn't want to work w/ you, either.)

You're either making it all up, overstating it to the point of lying, paying minimum wage or demanding too much. Please respond as I'd like to hear your side of it.
 
2010-08-22 2:12:31 PM  

jbrooks544: logophile: jbrooks544: Stupid-assed parents allow their kids to move back in. My 12 and 9 year old have been told since early on that they are expected to be gone after 18 and college.

- They can take relatively menial jobs if necessary, like I did.

- They can experience this odd thing called "ROOMMATES", which seems to be an odd thought these days.

It is not an option for my kids to not grow up and to move back in. If parents make that a policy, then it isn't going to happen.

/stupid modern parents

please please please please remember that attitude when, in 20 or 30 years, you're shocked and horrified to be stuck in public nursing care and the kids don't come to visit.

Yeah... Ok...?

No, what you say is kooky. It is really quit simple - If your kid suggests he live in your house after college, you say "no". My parents did this and I'm not bitter. I had roommates for a couple years.

It is called "being an adult".


I sincerely hope you change your mind in 10 years. Even if your children do get jobs right after college, I guarantee that removing the safety net of home and family will add negative stress to you and your children, make them less likely to move out of a bad career, and make them more willing to move far away from you.
 
2010-08-22 2:23:44 PM  
Hell, I'm in my early 40s and I feel like that now. Yeah, I've made mistakes--mostly of the relationship kind--and my life fell apart around me in the early 90's.

Then in '08 it fell apart around me again. Let me just say about the divorce before people harp, that if your sister had been married to my ex, you would have been very upset if she didn't divorce him. That's not whining. My bad relationship choice(s).

Yeah, I got a degree in psychology. Which wasn't useful at first, but which has been very useful to me in writing commercial fiction. It's not paying enough to live (securely) on. I have roomies, I'm paying my bills, I haven't had to lean on my parents for help yet--and am treading water frantically and constantly afraid that that may change.

I've tried various options to improve my situation, but haven't hit one that panned out yet, so I'm still in the mode of trying the next most likely option.

As I said, this happened before in the early 90's. There was a recession then, too. I skated on the edge of the financial cliff for three years, terrified I was in an unrecoverable abyss. All I can say is that I kept trying the next most likely thing until I hit something that worked. (Was an Oracle database programmer for six years. Skills are way out of date, etc.)

Well, it's happened again. What I learned after I graduated in 1990 and felt like the world had ended and I'd blown all my chances forever and life was doom and gloom--I didn't quit. I didn't quit, and eventually something went right and I was finally able to dig myself back out of the mud.

It's a necessary corollary to Murphy's Law: Eventually, something, somewhere will go right.

Since you can't know what that will be, you just have to keep fighting and try to be as well-positioned as you can to catch the right wave.
 
2010-08-22 2:38:01 PM  
For some clarity, here's an anthem of this younger generation:

"Me and all my friends
We're all misunderstood
They say we stand for nothing and
There's no way we ever could

Now we see everything that's going wrong
With the world and those who lead it
We just feel like we don't have the means
To rise above and beat it

So we keep waiting
Waiting on the world to change

It's hard to beat the system
When we're standing at a distance
So we keep waiting
Waiting on the world to change

It's not that we don't care,
We just know that the fight ain't fair
So we keep on waiting
Waiting on the world to change

And we're still waiting
Waiting on the world to change
We keep on waiting waiting on the world to change
One day our generation
Is gonna rule the population
So we keep on waiting
Waiting on the world to change "

Lazy asses. Wait all you want, just don't do it on my lawn. I worked hard to make it look that good - without any help from you.
 
2010-08-22 2:44:50 PM  
Maybe because the days of a factory line worker making enough to buy a house, two cars, go on vacations, and still have savings is long dead.
 
2010-08-22 2:48:39 PM  

deanayer: One thing I would suggest for people about to go to school as young adults is this: Dont major in dingbat shiat ! If you have a huge trust fund waiting for you then please get a degree in Womens studies or art history or theatre. If you would like to one day repay student loans and have a real job get a degree in computer science, civil engineering, accounting etc.

I have a cousin who has a zillion dollar private university degree in English, yes she works in a library making squat dollars. She can kick a$$ playing Jeopardy from her couch and she can quote shakespeare but she cant afford a decent car.


What is the dingbat shiat going to be in ten years? Ten years ago, computer engineering was a great degree. Now, programing is being off-shored at lots of companies. (True story: I worked for a company that now hires 10 programmers in the Philippines for less than the cost of two U.S. programmers. True, two US programmers got a lot more done, but that doesn't seem to be an issue. Accounting and payroll were off-shored to India.) We have a glut of lawyers, so that degree isn't likely to be worth the cost. Yes, a med degree is still worth something, but most doctors I know made the bulk of their cash in real estate or the market.

Personally, I don't think most specialized undergrad degrees are going to be worth much ten years after you get out of school. Invest in an undergrad degree that gives you a good grounding in math, science, history, writing, logic, and some of the social sciences. I think they used to call it an liberal arts degree. You can use the broad knowledge in a number of flexible ways in the real world, and you'll be be an asset because you can think. If you need specialized training, get a Masters - most work places are requiring them now anyway.

Frankly, it is a real pity that we've turned universities into trade schools. The problem with learning a trade is that you become obsolete as soon as the tech changes or they can offshore it for 20% of what they were paying you.
 
2010-08-22 2:58:33 PM  

btrflykate: What gets me about this article is that they refer the point in your twenties as a "developmental period" meaning, everyone goes through it. There were some psychologists who seemed on the fence about it but overall there seems to be a consensus that this is a "developmental period".

I'm 24. I have a full-time job, a son, and I'm in grad school. I'm fully self-sustainable and independent. No spouse.

Do I sometimes take a look at my peers and feel like I'm missing out? Eh. Depends. I don't really feel the need to go through this "developmental period". I'm a well adjusted adult and I'm okay with my responsibilities. Should all my peers be like me? Not necessarily, but I do think some semblance of being independent would be good for everyone in their twenties.


I'd be interested to know what access to opportunities you had available to you. It's seem rather rare that a 20-something single parent could be in grad school without some serious financial or career assistance.
 
2010-08-22 3:07:24 PM  
I'm tired of reading all this insightful information. Can someone please tell me their life story and why their choices and career make them better than everyone else?
 
2010-08-22 3:12:47 PM  
Parents need to let their kids grow up.

I moved out briefly in college (more like running away, I wasn't safe living with my stepdad), moved home after I got screwed over financially now that mom had divorced the prick.

Graduated college and worked a series of odd jobs (lots of working two jobs for a total of 50-60hrs a week at min. wage) until I found a full time, entry-level office position that enabled me to begin saving to move out. Finally, a year and a half after graduating college, I'd paid off my worst debts and saved up enough to put down first/last/deposit.

My mother was convinced I wouldn't survive and would have to move home again, and never missed a chance to tell my sister how foolish I was being by leaving a perfectly good living situation with cheap rent (200/month).

But dammit, I was 24 and sick of feeling like a child. And yeah, I stumbled a couple times...but I never moved back.

/29 next month
//I may not have designer clothing or a brand-new car like my sister, but dammit I have PRIDE.
///and very soon to be debt-free
 
2010-08-22 3:24:25 PM  

not_an_indigo: Parents need to let their kids grow up.


And our culture needs to lose its disgust for real work. All our cultural media contend that the hard working folks are either illegal or stupid. Instead, they're frequently just hard-working and capable.

It would be a good thing for people to lose their aspiration to be sports stars or actors or singers or famous just for being famous. Instead, the people that are famous should be famous for their contributions to America, not that they've been caught giving head in a hotel room by a videocamera.
 
2010-08-22 3:46:43 PM  

dmax: not_an_indigo: Parents need to let their kids grow up.

And our culture needs to lose its disgust for real work. All our cultural media contend that the hard working folks are either illegal or stupid. Instead, they're frequently just hard-working and capable.

It would be a good thing for people to lose their aspiration to be sports stars or actors or singers or famous just for being famous. Instead, the people that are famous should be famous for their contributions to America, not that they've been caught giving head in a hotel room by a videocamera.


well they get that stigma because all "hard work" is severely low paying. If you want someone out in the heat all day doing back breaking work and be satisfied with it, you need to pay them more, until then, it isn't a real job, its a place to earn enough to eat until you get something better.
 
2010-08-22 4:07:21 PM  
Kids. Why can't they be like we are. What's wrong with Danny Kaye?
 
2010-08-22 4:39:55 PM  

Bacontastesgood: Lux Lambert: None taken. You may yet be right. I've always had, as some other posters have pointed out, a nagging fear of failure that I really need to figure out how to excise. It's holding me back something fierce, and I'm trying to force myself to be less of a doormat anyway.

Re: passion, it's hard. Besides fiction-writing which is its own can of worms to be made fun of, all I can really say I'm truly passionate about is... birds... but birdkeeping doesn't really translate well to any particular jobs, except maybe being a vet or something. Who knows.

/i know you still don't care, but whatever, i admit you've got good points

Do yourself a favor and stay the hell away from the bullshiat academic rat race. I'm in science where the opportunities are 10x better than the humanities, but they STILL SUCK. It's a ponzi scheme and your reward at the end as a full professor is making 2/3 of the money as in the commercial world and you still put in more hours, because most of your grant proposals still will be rejected.

Guess what? You can 'teach' in any industry job. Aside from official 'training' type jobs, basically anyone has the opportunity to train and eventually manage subordinates. This can be very challenging and gratifying. I still consult at universities sometimes, and frankly I find the self-absorption of most of the professors pretty pathetic and laughable. They often have no clue of the world out there, and they engage in huge amounts of intellectual masturbation*.

And you will find your passions returning when you get away from the passion vacuum that is the academic world.

*as opposed to the good kind of masturbation


Unless you're really passionate about becoming a professor/academic, I'll have to second that. I spent the last year in a humanities program with the goal of eventually becoming a professor. Part of my assistantship was working an administrative position for my program. That opened my eyes to the insularity and straight-up air of self-importance among academics. I left the program because being around that made me realize that wasn't what I wanted.

/Beginning MS in GIS tomorrow
//20-something
///Learning from mistakes
 
2010-08-22 4:41:10 PM  
CAN'T GET A GOOD JOB WITHOUT EXPERIENCE.

CAN'T GET EXPERIENCE BECAUSE THE GOOD JOBS REQUIRE EXPERIENCE.

Say what?
Catch-22, fark being young and fark the world.
 
2010-08-22 4:55:15 PM  

TRIGONALMAYHEM: CAN'T GET A GOOD JOB WITHOUT EXPERIENCE.

CAN'T GET EXPERIENCE BECAUSE THE GOOD JOBS REQUIRE EXPERIENCE.

Say what?
Catch-22, fark being young and fark the world.


Or, you could do what I (and a lot of other people) did: don't expect a large salary just because you've got a degree, offer to work for peanuts in order to gain experience, work your ass off, get promoted, and then start making a decent salary after you've paid your dues.

/but 'dangler, I'm WORTH so much more. And that sounds HAAAAARD
 
2010-08-22 4:55:34 PM  

TRIGONALMAYHEM: CAN'T GET A GOOD JOB WITHOUT EXPERIENCE.

CAN'T GET EXPERIENCE BECAUSE THE GOOD JOBS REQUIRE EXPERIENCE.

Say what?
Catch-22, fark being young and fark the world.



Why do you think you deserve the good job? It is rare for someone to get a "Good Job" right out of college or out of High School.

That is a huge part of the problem people don't want to sacrifice so they can get the experience so they can take that step towards the good job.

Only 26 here, with a wife (prego again), and one daughter. Full time student plus contracted to NASA doing satellite communications and own 2 houses. I did my 6yrs with the military, I contracted after that (Spent almost 2yrs away from my wife, so I could get the commercial experience.)

If I was a hiring manager, I would definitely not hire the people that didn't want to sacrifice. To me that just shows you want hand outs and your not going to work as hard as you can.

Really there is no catch 22 just people without drive.

my 2 cents

get off my lawn
 
2010-08-22 4:59:35 PM  

dmax: not_an_indigo: Parents need to let their kids grow up.

And our culture needs to lose its disgust for real work. All our cultural media contend that the hard working folks are either illegal or stupid. Instead, they're frequently just hard-working and capable.

It would be a good thing for people to lose their aspiration to be sports stars or actors or singers or famous just for being famous. Instead, the people that are famous should be famous for their contributions to America, not that they've been caught giving head in a hotel room by a videocamera.


I certainly agree that there is plenty of hero worship for jobs like sports stars that is unhealthy at best. When you figure for every man playing in the NBA there are what, 10,000 to 20,000 men who did NOT make it to the NBA and have to actually make a living...

I dunno, I wanted to get a job as soon as I could because I wanted to own things - so working was my way of earning the cash to get things I could not have had otherwise. Sure, working all the way thru Jr. and Sr. high school [friday and sat nights only except on school holidays] taught me the value of my time and the value of money.

BUT, I think like many people referenced above in the articles, while I was not afraid to work for a living, I wanted a career that was not pushing a shovel or making Pizza [which I did for almost 10 years].

And, it took me a couple of years post college to get my bearings - my BA was not all that useful, although writing is always a useful skill. I got rejected for graduate school two years running, so I decided to go to a trade school. Upon completion, I got a job and started at the bottom, and worked my way up to a senior position over 17 years [including one relocation] with one firm then started my own company, which was profitable from the first year.

My advice to young people today would be this: Find something to do that cannot be easily outsourced. Trades pay pretty darn well even if you 'work' for a living. Electricians, plumbers, HVAC, communciations systems, hardware and installation will never move overseas.

Firefighter, cop....

Healthcare - Nurses make a lot of money today. Even aides make good money and talk about portable careers.

Foodservice - although it's a long slog, a successful restaurant owner makes good bucks. There are plenty of jobs in corporate foodservice that work 'normal' hours and days - 7a - 5p monday-friday.

There used to be an old saw about doing what you love and you will never work a day in your life. Hey, good luck with that. I'm more along the lines of another friend of mine who noted that life is a s*it sandwich, the more bread you have the less s*it you have to eat.
 
2010-08-22 4:59:51 PM  

TRIGONALMAYHEM: CAN'T GET A GOOD JOB WITHOUT EXPERIENCE.

CAN'T GET EXPERIENCE BECAUSE THE GOOD JOBS REQUIRE EXPERIENCE.


That's because you're shortcutting and frustrated that you can't game the system.

It's
EDUCATION TO BECOME EMPLOYABLE (doesn't have to be college, could be apprentice)
TAKE CRAP JOB TO DEVELOP EXPERTISE IN THE REAL WORLD
WORK YOUR WAY UP, SCRIMPING TO DEVELOP A NEST EGG
END UP IN GOOD JOB WITH MONEY IN THE BANK THAT YOU DIDN'T WASTE AT STARBUCKS
MAKE FUN OF THE KIDS IN "GENERATION ENTITLEMENT"

/not like I would've lived this life, you think?
 
2010-08-22 5:02:40 PM  
Well la-tee-da, good for you. Your anecdotal experience does not represent the norm, so go fark yourself. I'm so sick of "WELL I DID OK SO YOU OTHER PEOPLE ARE LAZY/STUPID/WHATEVER" guys on the interwebs. I know plenty of hard working and talented people who are struggling to survive because they can't even find retail jobs. Actually, I'm one of them, too. This shiat has everything to do with the economy and the system the baby boomers broke horribly with shiatty political choices and slowly ceding more and more control to corporate interests.

Oh, and I had a 'decent' job out of college. It underpaid by about half and involved some shiat I'd rather have not done, but it was ok. Got laid off from that in 2008 and have had farkall luck finding anything even comparable in wages. My unemployment ran out, and now I'm struggling to even find anything that pays $10hr. Or $8, even.

The biggest issue I have, which someone on the first page commented about too, is that I'm 'in-between' experience levels.

For simple jobs I'm considered too overqualified. For real jobs I'm totally qualified for skill-wise, I'm usually ignored because I don't have x years of industry experience using exactly such-and-such software application I could learn in less than a week (where x is typically 5, but lately 7 or 8). It's a really awful place to be in, because it's not like I can magically create or erase experience. I could probably make another resume for shiatty jobs and leave off my degree, but that's still a dead-end road that's not going to ever lead to me doing something I'm skilled at and getting paid properly for it.
 
2010-08-22 5:22:33 PM  
You boomers killed the world and ruined the economy, there is no denying that. Dont come crying to me about ANYTHING at this point.

Lay in the bed you made.
 
2010-08-22 5:27:54 PM  

Baron Von Supercock: You boomers killed the world and ruined the economy, there is no denying that. Dont come crying to me about ANYTHING at this point.

Lay in the bed you made.


And lie in that bed for weeks, unwashed and lying in your own feces. Kiss your medicare goodbye, assholes.

I don't know who they expect to pay for that shiat when they stunted the earning potential of an entire generation (one that just happens to be the one expected to pay for their retirements and old fart medicine). Yeah, those jobs you shipped overseas/eliminated in the name of 'productivity gains'/decided to collectively underpay for? Those were going to be ours, and we were going to support you with them as you get old and decrepit. Good luck with that now, I hope you saved all that money you made from that shiat.
 
2010-08-22 5:31:40 PM  

Baron Von Supercock: You boomers killed the world and ruined the economy, there is no denying that. Dont come crying to me about ANYTHING at this point.

Lay in the bed you made.


STFU and get me my FRIES!
 
2010-08-22 5:32:24 PM  

justinguarini4ever: jbrooks544: logophile: jbrooks544: Stupid-assed parents allow their kids to move back in. My 12 and 9 year old have been told since early on that they are expected to be gone after 18 and college.

- They can take relatively menial jobs if necessary, like I did.

- They can experience this odd thing called "ROOMMATES", which seems to be an odd thought these days.

It is not an option for my kids to not grow up and to move back in. If parents make that a policy, then it isn't going to happen.

/stupid modern parents

please please please please remember that attitude when, in 20 or 30 years, you're shocked and horrified to be stuck in public nursing care and the kids don't come to visit.

Yeah... Ok...?

No, what you say is kooky. It is really quit simple - If your kid suggests he live in your house after college, you say "no". My parents did this and I'm not bitter. I had roommates for a couple years.

It is called "being an adult".

I sincerely hope you change your mind in 10 years. Even if your children do get jobs right after college, I guarantee that removing the safety net of home and family will add negative stress to you and your children, make them less likely to move out of a bad career, and make them more willing to move far away from you.


I don't agree with you at all. I'm convinced that it is harmful to young adults to be treated like children. I've seen no shortage of people 18 - 30+ still living at home, who have no incentive to grow up and be independent. Parents don't do their (adult) kids any favors by by insulating them from the real world. If my kids aren't able to fend for themselves after 18 or 22 years, then I'd consider myself to be pretty weak, and not a good parent. My job is to raise mature, self-responsible people. It is better for someone to have 3 roommates in a crappy apartment for a few years, and work in a low entry position - rather than be lame and dependent, with no incentive to live an adult life.
Your "safety net" might apply in dire circumstances, but that is not why most young adults live at home. They live at home because mommy and daddy let them. They do that, and they just stay adolescent into a period of their lives where they should be adults.
 
2010-08-22 5:33:11 PM  

NYZooMan: Baron Von Supercock: You boomers killed the world and ruined the economy, there is no denying that. Dont come crying to me about ANYTHING at this point.

Lay in the bed you made.

STFU and get me my FRIES!


I'm not qualified to. I don't have a Masters Degree in Fast Food Engineering with ten years experience.
 
2010-08-22 5:39:55 PM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: btrflykate: What gets me about this article is that they refer the point in your twenties as a "developmental period" meaning, everyone goes through it. There were some psychologists who seemed on the fence about it but overall there seems to be a consensus that this is a "developmental period".

I'm 24. I have a full-time job, a son, and I'm in grad school. I'm fully self-sustainable and independent. No spouse.

Do I sometimes take a look at my peers and feel like I'm missing out? Eh. Dependis. I don't really feel the need to go through this "developmental period". I'm a well adjusted adult and I'm okay with my responsibilities. Should all my peers be like me? Not necessarily, but I do think some semblance of being independent would be good for everyone in their twenties.

I'd be interested to know what access to opportunities you had available to you. It's seem rather rare that a 20-something single parent could be in grad school without some serious financial or career assistance.


I work in higher ed so they pay for my classes. I chose a career path that was good for my needs as a mom and someone who wanted to go to grad school.
 
2010-08-22 6:34:58 PM  

calbert: oh thank the lord, someone figured out how to submit the 'single page' option of a long article


+1 for having brains heromitter


Why do they even have pageinated articles like that anymore? It's not the farking dial up era anymore (and even if it was, making me click and load several times only compounds the issue)
 
2010-08-22 7:38:44 PM  
Let me suggest this "problem" occurs because we older folks never treat youth as adults. For example, absolutely, positively mandate that no one may drink until 21 years old and then wonder why no one drinks responsibly at age 21.
 
2010-08-22 8:58:54 PM  
I have to agree with the posters above. Getting a decent job is incredibly hard. For someone like me, I'm a 20-something who lives with my parents, I've had part-time jobs but the ones I'm supposed to get with my bachelors degree in MIS and one year of grad school all require experience I don't have. How am I supposed to get experience when all the jobs ask for experience? And not only that, but I'm pretty sure years of experience working at McDonald's is not the experience they are looking for. Plus, they'd rather hire high school degree/GED candidates instead.
 
2010-08-22 9:05:59 PM  
Part of the problem here is over education in America. Virtually everyone goes to college now so the market is flooded with degrees. Most of them useless ones at that. Electicians, plumbers, HVAC, are all lucrative fields that seem to forgotten. That BA in Library seems more important now.....

In Germany kids are tested and separated at age 12 where they will be prepped for either college or a trade school. Maybe that would be a better system here.
 
2010-08-22 9:12:49 PM  

dead_dangler: TRIGONALMAYHEM: CAN'T GET A GOOD JOB WITHOUT EXPERIENCE.

CAN'T GET EXPERIENCE BECAUSE THE GOOD JOBS REQUIRE EXPERIENCE.

Say what?
Catch-22, fark being young and fark the world.

Or, you could do what I (and a lot of other people) did: don't expect a large salary just because you've got a degree, offer to work for peanuts in order to gain experience, work your ass off, get promoted, and then start making a decent salary after you've paid your dues.

/but 'dangler, I'm WORTH so much more. And that sounds HAAAAARD


In fairness, you have to remember that anyone born from 1970 to today has been told over and over the same thing. Let me illustrate it for you:

Good grades in High School = go to college
Do well in college = get 50k-60k a year job in the real world

Nevermind that some good colleges have a 40% rate for people not graduating. Despite high school students who have great standardized test scores and great grades, some of them simply can't do complicated thinking no matter what they've been told all their lives. And nevermind that even among all students that graduate with an undergraduate degree, there are not enough jobs for them.

See, you can blame the whiny kids who complain that they can't get good jobs, but what has every advertisement, for every school, and what has every school counselor, TV show, movie, and novel told them while they were growing up? They've been told that a college degree is a ticket to a good job. It's not just a white lie, it's a damned lie that ignores even basic statistics on who gets what jobs.

What's really sad is that the same generation that was told that college always equals good job were never told that skilled trades make good money. Only poor people and ethnic minorities the middle class does not approve of do those jobs, so why tell the middle class kids? It's a pity, because some skilled trades make good money. And you never know how much money they make until you get the bill from your plumber or electrician.

The only good news out there is that IF you can get entry level work, and work hard, you can get the experience employers are looking for. You probably won't get promoted at your current job, but that's not the trick. The trick is to put that experience on a resume and start shopping around long before you even think you want to change jobs. If employers want to treat their workers like expendable parts (and many do) then feel free to sell your labor to the highest bidder. Loyalty to employers is not the route to a good job and steady pay anymore (if it ever really was).
 
2010-08-22 9:14:24 PM  

the_red_spectacle: I have to agree with the posters above. Getting a decent job is incredibly hard. For someone like me, I'm a 20-something who lives with my parents, I've had part-time jobs but the ones I'm supposed to get with my bachelors degree in MIS and one year of grad school all require experience I don't have. How am I supposed to get experience when all the jobs ask for experience? And not only that, but I'm pretty sure years of experience working at McDonald's is not the experience they are looking for. Plus, they'd rather hire high school degree/GED candidates instead.


Wahhhh getting a job is hard! I expected easy employment to be handed to me on a silver platter!! Wahhhh!!!! Work sucks, then you die. This is all you need to know about human society.
 
2010-08-22 9:16:38 PM  
Paelian:

In short: People are stupid, college is a racket, and hard, grueling work is necessary but not sufficient for financial success.

/this has been true for hundreds of years
 
2010-08-22 9:27:25 PM  

TRIGONALMAYHEM: For simple jobs I'm considered too overqualified. For real jobs I'm totally qualified for skill-wise, I'm usually ignored because I don't have x years of industry experience using exactly such-and-such software application I could learn in less than a week (where x is typically 5, but lately 7 or 8). It's a really awful place to be in, because it's not like I can magically create or erase experience. I could probably make another resume for shiatty jobs and leave off my degree, but that's still a dead-end road that's not going to ever lead to me doing something I'm skilled at and getting paid properly for it.


crg5980: Part of the problem here is over education in America. Virtually everyone goes to college now so the market is flooded with degrees. Most of them useless ones at that. Electicians, plumbers, HVAC, are all lucrative fields that seem to forgotten. That BA in Library seems more important now.....

In Germany kids are tested and separated at age 12 where they will be prepped for either college or a trade school. Maybe that would be a better system here.


These.
 
2010-08-22 9:31:30 PM  
Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom:

Wahhhh!!!! Work sucks, then you die. This is all you need to know about human society.

If only someone had said that before!
 
2010-08-22 9:42:26 PM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Paelian:

In short: People are stupid, college is a racket, and hard, grueling work is necessary but not sufficient for financial success.

/this has been true for hundreds of years


A good summary, but let me add a phrase:

"...and financial success, as defined by your current culture, may not even be what you are really looking for."

There's a big difference between putting food on the table, having a roof over your head, and having enough medical care to not go to the ER for every little thing and having a job that pays 70K a year. I learned a long time ago that I could work a 70k a year job for 60 hours a week or a 35k a year job for 40 hours a week, and that I would prefer the time off rather than the extra cash. My hobbies are inexpensive, and time spent with those I care about is more important. When I was working 60 or more hours a week, I made great money, but hardly had time to spend it. I didn't even get to eat good food because I was at work all the time. Not everyone would make my choice, but knowing that there is a choice to be made is something more people should know. Many people never factor in time spent working into their cost-benefit analysis when choosing jobs.

As for college being a racket, I will point out that if you go into college with your eyes open, it is a very different thing than going to school because mommy and daddy want you to get a good job. A substantial number of my students don't even know what they really want to do, but instead of just getting a menial job for a few years, getting some kind of work experience, and waiting to decide what they really want to do, they just go to college. Some of my best students are 40 year old folks who are just now going to school because they finally figured out what a college education could really offer them. One student had built up and sold two whole businesses at a large profit over 20 years and had finally decided that he wanted to teach. Not because he needed a job, but because he had enough money, but wanted to do something he felt was important. That's a very different way of approaching college than the 18 year-olds who have been brainwashed with the "Go to college or never get above poverty level employment again" mantra.
 
2010-08-22 9:45:35 PM  
Now I know why my parents were members of the "greatest" generation that won World War 2.

It's because they all fought alongside each other, and once the war was over, the rich Conservatives didn't mind the fact that the underclass could achieve middle class status through manual labor. And Liberal working class people didn't mind the fact that people with a little more brains than brawn could get rich in America. This all happened because ALL classes had to fight together during World War 2.

It all went south when Vietnam was only fought by minorities and working-class whites, and the era of Globalism and Class Warfare started in the late 1970s.

Now, the rich want to eliminate the middle class and the poor want to eat the rich.

Class Warfare can always be avoided by one thing. The existence of a middle class.
 
2010-08-22 11:04:05 PM  

Kasira: dead_dangler: GristleDick: I like bashing the youngsters as much as anybody, (Especially about their complete inability to create decent rock and roll), But things really have changed. When I fist moved out in 1976, I was able to support myself with a part-time minimum wage ($2.60 hr) job and a room mate. Now you have to make a decent salary to even think about moving out. It's HARDER. WAY the fark harder.

No shiat. Back then, all you had to pay for was rent and food. Nowadays you've got to pay for high-speed internet, unlimited data plans for your cell phone, x-box live accounts, and a whole host of other expenses.

$7.25*40*4*.8 = $928, approximately, after taxes. Figure rent at $600, utilities are $300, and food is...oh wait, you don't eat at that wage. And that's assuming you can get 40 hrs a week, every week.


If you get a roommate, like most young people do, you're down to $450 + cost of food.
 
2010-08-23 2:32:53 AM  
Paelian: What's really sad is that the same generation that was told that college always equals good job were never told that skilled trades make good money. Only poor people and ethnic minorities the middle class does not approve of do those jobs, so why tell the middle class kids?

If skilled trades make good money, why are the skilled laborers "poor people"?
 
2010-08-23 4:38:10 AM  

sk8r: Steam Powered Cat: Oh gods this shiat. I'm just under 30, with my JD (brand new) and am still looking for my first real job in a shiat economy. It is real hard to pass those life milestones when no one wants to hire someone who doesn't have "experience" but in this economy I can't blame them. There's more attorneys than jobs and far more experienced people than me are out of work and more desperate than I am.

But what is the American elder generation's obsession of having to meet milestones? I'm poor, in debt (all educational), and living in a small apartment. But I'm happy, working a job that doesn't provide enough hours to move up, job hunting and living with my honey (whom I cannot legally marry) in a small affordable apartment. Getting a house would be fiscally irresponsible, as would having a kid (not to mention the expenses of adopting). Granted this would change the second some firm wants to take a chance on some newbie with only two years of working experience like me.

I admit that I've kinda fallen into the trap that being out on my own equals success. Moving back in with my parents would be the fiscally prudent thing to do, but at this point I'd rather wait tables to supplement my income from my law job than do that.

Good God, don't go back in with the parents. When our family relocated cross country, my parents offered to have me and the kids stay with them while the DH finished selling our house and packing. I thought it would be a great time- kiddies getting to know their grandparents better etc.

Parents don't stop being parents. It was like being chopped off at the knees. You are back in the kid role. I can't understand how the kids in TFA would want to be back in with the parents. "Where are you going?" and "When will you be back?" are really reasonable things to ask but they feel like nails on a chalkboard after you have been out on your own.

Hear the tips at Olive Garden are good.


Oh gods I get that already when i visit on the weekends. I go from a mostly-responsible adult helping people with their complex and expensive legal issues to a 12 year old who cannot dress herself.
 
2010-08-23 11:07:45 AM  

dead_dangler: GristleDick: I like bashing the youngsters as much as anybody, (Especially about their complete inability to create decent rock and roll), But things really have changed. When I fist moved out in 1976, I was able to support myself with a part-time minimum wage ($2.60 hr) job and a room mate. Now you have to make a decent salary to even think about moving out. It's HARDER. WAY the fark harder.

No shiat. Back then, all you had to pay for was rent and food. Nowadays you've got to pay for high-speed internet, unlimited data plans for your cell phone, x-box live accounts, and a whole host of other expenses.


And dead_dangler hits the nail on the head.

Want to make it starting out? Cut out all of the shiat you don't need!

My first job was making $19k a year. I ate a crapload of mac n cheese and had zero social life. I skrimped and saved and spent my spare time bettering my work skills.

Now I make a very comfortable living as an IT Manager.

1. Cut the fat out of your life.
2. Save for a rainy day.
3. Continually better yourself and get off the damn XBox for 4 hours a night.
 
2010-08-23 12:17:36 PM  
Milestones suck. I was poked & prodded along to achieve all those milestones, and I never once felt proud or happy about achieving them.

I look back on my adolescence like I was being sold something.
 
2010-08-23 12:41:52 PM  
Anyone who would peg this phenomenon on some notion of generational traits instead of economic conditions is an idiot. It's a lot easier to "grow up" when you live in the freaking golden age, baby boomers.
 
2010-08-23 1:04:11 PM  

llortcM_yllort: Paelian: What's really sad is that the same generation that was told that college always equals good job were never told that skilled trades make good money. Only poor people and ethnic minorities the middle class does not approve of do those jobs, so why tell the middle class kids?

If skilled trades make good money, why are the skilled laborers "poor people"?


They're not really poor. The image portrayed in culture is that skilled trades are poor folks. The reality is that they make better money than low-end retail and fast food. But that's not what gets talked about. It's the "poor, dirty people do those jobs" mentality, regardless of what the reality of the situation is.

Heck, in some cities, sanitation workers make good money and have decent retirement because they are city employees.

Why segments of the middle class view certain jobs this way is a question I am not qualified to answer.
 
2010-08-23 1:30:38 PM  
Everyone I know started college when jobs were available. When they graduated all of those "lucrative" jobs were gone. IT, designers, engineers, teachers, lawyers, everyone is having a hard time. The only people I know that have some chance of getting a decent job went to medical school in a 3rd world country and then have their parents pull strings to get them jobs in the US (not exactly "grown-up" and independent). I've been lucky enough to be an employed designer, but when people with law degrees and MBAs can't find anything decent (and I make more than some of them), there is a serious problem.
 
Displayed 48 of 148 comments


Oldest | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | » | Newest | Show all



This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking





On Twitter



  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.