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(The New York Times)   Why the hell won't kids grow up these days? Warning: Originally ten pages, and still doesn't say why they won't get the hell off Subby's lawn   (nytimes.com) divider line
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8448 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Aug 2010 at 10:18 AM (10 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2010-08-22 11:17:00 AM  
Those five milestones can fark off.

Not everyone wants kids, or to get married. I'm a couple of years out of my twenties now, but amongst my (educated, professional, fairly well off) peer group it's still a minority that have kids,

Hell, I have no desire for kids right now but I passed their other milestones more than a decade ago.

Is society changing and are people doing certain things (kids, marriage) later? Yeah sure. Is it a sign that everyone under 30 is a sub-adult pretending to be a child? I don't think so.
 
2010-08-22 11:18:08 AM  

dead_dangler: Lux Lambert: You know, I'm coming to the conclusion that the easiest way to get ahead in life is simply to stop being nice and just start being an asshole. I believe "ruthless" or "shrewd" is the proper business term.

Either that or join the military, apparently. They're always hiring.

It's not about being nice vs being an asshole. It's about having a clear direction and not letting anything stand in your way.


THIS
 
2010-08-22 11:19:27 AM  

ShillinTheVillain: unalivezombie: True, but it is getting harder to stay in the Air Force, possibly the safest/smartest branch to be in, which has been steadily cutting numbers. How do I know this? I joined the AF, and couldn't stay in past my 4 years because they were reducing my career field. One of the closest things the military has to a layoff.

Couldn't you retrain for another career field? Not that you'd necessarily want to, but I know in the Navy they're reducing some rates, but if you're good in your fitness and disciplinary records you can go to another A-school.


I was limited to only switching to critical career fields. This meant applying for several careers I didn't want while facing competition with other people for the same positions. So it was hard to switch (at least for my peers who were also getting out at the time) even with people with fairly good records.

In the end, my desire to stay in the military wasn't enough to go through the paperwork and hassle required to switch fields. It was a better option to just finish my CCAF, get out, and take advantage of the MGIB benefits.
 
2010-08-22 11:19:31 AM  

Girion47: would an E8 still get E8 pay if he has the tech knowledge of an E4?


It's not a matter of "would they". It's "they most certainly do". My senior chief couldn't fix half of the things on our helos because the tech changes faster than the schooling, and the fact that at E-8 they aren't doing operational level maintenance. Their job is to organize the overall maintenance plan, squadron reunion picnics and sneak out before 1500.
 
2010-08-22 11:22:01 AM  

dead_dangler: It's about having a clear direction and not letting anything stand in your way.


That's actually pretty much my problem. The direction for becoming a university professor is comparatively vague than it is for say, becoming a doctor or lawyer. Seems to be you get the MFA then maybe get the PhD in your field, then try to find a uni that doesn't suck and is hiring, and then you could go through tenure track and still not get tenured.

Whatever, I chose this career path, I'll suck it up and see it through. Someone's gotta do it. I actually agree with a lot of your points, I'm just sick of hearing about how I'm somehow 'wrong' for choosing this path. And if I am, hell, there's always an overseas market for English teachers.
 
2010-08-22 11:22:55 AM  
What gets me about this article is that they refer the point in your twenties as a "developmental period" meaning, everyone goes through it. There were some psychologists who seemed on the fence about it but overall there seems to be a consensus that this is a "developmental period".

I'm 24. I have a full-time job, a son, and I'm in grad school. I'm fully self-sustainable and independent. No spouse.

Do I sometimes take a look at my peers and feel like I'm missing out? Eh. Depends. I don't really feel the need to go through this "developmental period". I'm a well adjusted adult and I'm okay with my responsibilities. Should all my peers be like me? Not necessarily, but I do think some semblance of being independent would be good for everyone in their twenties.
 
2010-08-22 11:23:12 AM  
Several reasons, which are going to take a while to flush from the system:

1. Lack of real government support for post-secondary education to keep costs down.
2. Companies do not collaborate with the educational system to actually help them develop meaningful courses that would result in graduates they can actually use
3. Companies who would rather outsource to third-world sweatshops to provide immediate gratification to stockholders than actually TRAIN and invest in new employees
4. Farkin' greedy landlords are part of the problem, too.
 
2010-08-22 11:25:26 AM  
i43.photobucket.comView Full Size


/You saw this comming...
 
2010-08-22 11:26:22 AM  

Lux Lambert: dead_dangler: It's about having a clear direction and not letting anything stand in your way.

That's actually pretty much my problem. The direction for becoming a university professor is comparatively vague than it is for say, becoming a doctor or lawyer. Seems to be you get the MFA then maybe get the PhD in your field, then try to find a uni that doesn't suck and is hiring, and then you could go through tenure track and still not get tenured.

Whatever, I chose this career path, I'll suck it up and see it through. Someone's gotta do it. I actually agree with a lot of your points, I'm just sick of hearing about how I'm somehow 'wrong' for choosing this path. And if I am, hell, there's always an overseas market for English teachers.


No offense, but I don't think you're going to make it. You don't sound very passionate about it, and you've already got a mediocre plan 'B', as if you're already expecting to fail. You're waiting for things to happen. To succeed, you need to be making things happen.
 
2010-08-22 11:26:59 AM  

queenb4biatch: McVodkaBreath: so afraid to make a mistake no action is taken at all

THIS! OMG, so what if you fail? It's not like the entire world is going to come to a halt if you fail...get over it...learn from it, adapt, change and grow as a person...

This group doesn't KNOW how to fail or lose or get told you don't deserve the corner office for having a Masters but no experience, or that sometimes you job will include tasks you hate to do and no you don't get to pawn them off. Trophies and ribbons for everyone, let's not keep score...Fark that. Losing builds character, makes you want to work harder and learn so you won't lose again, and makes you hungry for a victory.


Agreed. Some of my best lessons and self realizations came after I tried to do something or made a difficult decisions one way or another.. and it didn't result in loli pops & ponies. Life lessons bring the most valuable knowledge, but are the hardest lessons to come by. The negative consequesences of life lessons also sting the most, so I assume that's why many 20-somethings prefer to stay in the womb, avoiding these decisions. This consistent reliance on mom and dad is why my generation needs such copious hand holding on the job that an earlier poster mentioned. It's sad when each employer I've had of a "real job" (and I've had three since college), has remarked on how I stood out from my peers because I am ambitious and competent, as opposed to lazy and self-entitled like many 20-somethings my former managers had the misfortune of employing
 
2010-08-22 11:30:49 AM  

ShillinTheVillain: Girion47: would an E8 still get E8 pay if he has the tech knowledge of an E4?

It's not a matter of "would they". It's "they most certainly do". My senior chief couldn't fix half of the things on our helos because the tech changes faster than the schooling, and the fact that at E-8 they aren't doing operational level maintenance. Their job is to organize the overall maintenance plan, squadron reunion picnics and sneak out before 1500.


my bro is an E-8, he's a corpsman so I guess the tech doesn't change that much, but I could totally see him sneaking out by 1500.
 
2010-08-22 11:31:38 AM  
The real world sucks. If I were in my early 20s again right now, I wouldn't want to grow up either.

That being said, I got over it and so will they.
 
2010-08-22 11:35:52 AM  
my take away from the article?

at 40, i'm still within someone's range of "young adulthood" !!!
woohoo!

oh, and i'm grateful my eldest is awesome, because i honestly don't want her to leave at this point (she's only 15, so i'm projecting)..

oh, and we moved into my in laws not once, but twice, after marriage, so i guess even in our 30s we were growth retarded.

oh, and like language sociology should be Descriptive, not Prescriptive. Because things are different now than they were 30 years ago doesn't make it worse or better necessarily. only different.
 
2010-08-22 11:35:54 AM  

dead_dangler:
No offense, but I don't think you're going to make it. You don't sound very passionate about it, and you've already got a mediocre plan 'B', as if you're already expecting to fail. You're waiting for things to happen. To succeed, you need to be making things happen.


None taken. You may yet be right. I've always had, as some other posters have pointed out, a nagging fear of failure that I really need to figure out how to excise. It's holding me back something fierce, and I'm trying to force myself to be less of a doormat anyway.

Re: passion, it's hard. Besides fiction-writing which is its own can of worms to be made fun of, all I can really say I'm truly passionate about is... birds... but birdkeeping doesn't really translate well to any particular jobs, except maybe being a vet or something. Who knows.

/i know you still don't care, but whatever, i admit you've got good points
 
2010-08-22 11:36:22 AM  
Despite all your efforts and plans for the future, most of the time you'll find it comes down to timing: Being in the right place at the right time.

I'm not saying planning doesn't work, or that you shouldn't map out your future, but few people end up doing/being what they planned.
 
2010-08-22 11:38:42 AM  

Lux Lambert: f, all I can really say I'm truly passionate about is... birds... but birdkeeping doesn't really translate well to any particular jobs, except maybe being a vet or something. Who knows.


There's probably someone in this world making 6 figures doing something related to birds. There's probably far more making a decent, livable income. It can be done; you just need to figure out how to do it.
 
2010-08-22 11:40:32 AM  
There are too many people, and not enough opportunities. Pretty simple, actually.
 
2010-08-22 11:40:33 AM  

GristleDick: I like bashing the youngsters as much as anybody, (Especially about their complete inability to create decent rock and roll), But things really have changed. When I fist moved out in 1976, I was able to support myself with a part-time minimum wage ($2.60 hr) job and a room mate. Now you have to make a decent salary to even think about moving out. It's HARDER. WAY the fark harder.


Yeah, plus the need for more schooling is dead on, and the cost of college now is farking INSANE.

But independently of this article, yesterday NPR was running a piece on mortgages, pointing out that more and more people are choosing to never buy real estate and instead rent, because in a lot of circumstances it makes more sense.

Those circumstances were that people in GENERAL move a hell of a lot more now, transferring jobs far more often and when they do, often having to uproot and move across the country. If you're never sure when your next move is, maybe it makes more sense to rent, no worries about selling the house. New York Times ran an article on "relos" (corporate middle managers who constantly move around) a while ago also.

Me, I own a house (long since paid off), and have a steady job that I'm not likely to have to leave (public sector, yes, the one place that IS still run under the "old system" somewhat). I'm 40 this year, maybe I was among the last to still have CHEAP in-state tuition and end up with no debt (though granted, I had a good job all through college due to the luck of being bilingual).

I think there's something to the "possibilities" of 20-somethings though, even if you ARE in a career already. It's about being able to change that if for some reason you decided to. Get into middle age, and it's harder to just completely change direction, and the idea that "well, I could be anything I want, eventually" is less and less true.
 
2010-08-22 11:46:15 AM  
I don't think it's all one way or another. It's not just about whether or not people in the 20s are immature or just have to live in a crappy job market. To me it seems like a combination of both of those things.
Being raised like a snowflake + being in a bad job market on top of inflation = exactly what you have now. People are a product of their environment.
 
2010-08-22 11:50:33 AM  
I had to work more than 40 hours per week to get by in the early 90s. I did that ciphering some people here are doing and it told me I need to spend less, earn a higher wage, or work more hours. If you can't work 50+ hours in your early 20s (hours per week...not 50 hours in your entire 20s), well...you suck.
 
2010-08-22 11:50:45 AM  
I'd like to whine, too. I'm old and I haven't been working steadily for a long time. I lost my husband and now I need to get a job to support myself and my youngest child (she's only 12) who is developmentally delayed and epileptic. I spent a lot of time working in communications engineering so I'm trying to teach myself the new-fangled networking. And I'll be doing this in Michigan so my sister can help take care of my daughter. Wish me luck.

/wish I had the energy of a 20 year-old.

/if anyone knows of a good cisco simulator, please advise
 
2010-08-22 11:54:04 AM  
To be fair, the lengthened period of childhood and adolescence has been considered by many to be an opportunity to grow and keep mental flexibility longer. From a societal point of view, we don't have an actual age for "adulthood" in most of the culture, and there is no real ceremony to show folks that they've grown the fark up. And it doesn't help that an aging populace doesn't recognize that folks in their 30s have done so, and call folks in their 40s "young" in an effort to make themselves younger by comparison, so folks in their 20s are frippin' doomed to be considered adults by patronizing elders.

In short, maybe we should stop calling them kids, and let them take up real responsibility, as opposed to letting folks skate on a sliding scale of maturity. Treat folks like adults, and folks tend to strive to live up to those expectations. Treat them like kids, and they strive to live up to those expectations too. You can't do BOTH and then complain that they aren't doing what you hoped, while not giving actual guidelines and real goals and expectations.

I tend to treat folks who hit 18 like they grown people. Responsible for their own shiat, and call them on it. Hold them responsible, and they are more than capable of it. Not precious snowflakes, but real people, actual and entire. Treat them with the respect and with actual expectations that they're adults, and move the fark on.

I was involved in a court case on a jury earlier this year. Young man came to Arizona for drug rehab, and checked himself out of a voluntary program, rented a car, drove himself past Flagstaff in December, and got out of his car, and wound up freezing to death. Nekkid.

No drugs in his system. Dead at 25.

In the course of the case, we got a good picture of the young man. Coddled, kept from real responsibility, and treated as a kid, despite his age. He wasn't responsible for his actions, at least in his folks' mind. They sued the hospital for NOT committing him, despite no indications, no suicidal warnings, no real reason. The parents wanted the hospital to treat their 25 year old son as if he was a minor, and HOLD him until they could collect him. For a marijuana and gambling addictions.

While I felt for the kid--freezing to death because you're frickin' too retarded to find your damn car after wandering around looking for the road to Vegas sucks--but I felt bad for the family too. For the first time in his life, this kid had some degree of autonomy, at 25 he finally had some control over his actions, and he exercised it poorly. And while he was technically responsible for his actions by being of the age of majority, he was ill prepared for it. Never given the opportunity to be responsible, and when finally given that responsibility, he ran from it.

I don't want to see more kids like this. Damaged by folks with good intentions, but at some point we have to teach folks to handle their own shiat. Lives that are too easy can damage folks and disable folks as much, if not worse, than folks who lead a damn hard existence. The folks who struggle at least know how to stand up to it, as opposed to getting plowed under when they're finally exposed to the real world.

Not all our young folks are being coddled to the point of damage, but it would be nice if folks began treating folks with the dignity and respect that they themselves expect, and stop looking for excuses to shield themselves from the deep dark truthful mirror that they themselves are grown the fark up a long time ago, and holding folks down doesn't make you any younger...
 
2010-08-22 11:55:46 AM  
As a 20-something who has the attention span to read the whole article unlike some of the bootstrappy farkers here, I would like to comment on the actual content of the article instead of getting into a generational shiatfest.

I think that our cultural definition of adulthood is changing and it is sociologists that need to update that definition. I consider myself an adult, but I have not passed the last of the five "milestones" cited as being needed to achieve adulthood. My "family plan" is to not have children, but to adopt around age 35 or maybe closer to 40, depending on my career. I have considered this plan very carefully and my husband and I are in agreement on this plan, but this, what I would consider, responsible outlook bars me from being considered an adult by sociologists, then clearly their definition of adult is flawed.

The article did bring up a lot of valid reasons that 20-somethings don't pass these milestones by age 30, like the acceptance of sex outside of marriage, the acceptance of gay and lesbian lifestlyes (who as a group are largely are unable to marry and in some cases, unable to adopt to have families), and the availability of birth control (which leads to more controlled family planning). I think being financially independent is the strongest adult milestone, but passing into adulthood is a lot more nuanced than just that plus marriage and kids.

Our society has been putting a premium on continued education and you see people going back to school even after they are well-established in a career. Personally, I hope I never "finish school" and that I always have a drive to go back and learn something. (I start a new job at the local university on Thursday and one of the benefits is 75% off tuition or I can audit classes for free!)

In this article, while it focuses on 20-somethings of now, the main researcher it refers to did his studies of 20-somethings in the 1990s (the Gen-X crowd). The article is about the 20-something age range and whether or not we need to recognize a new stage of development occurring for some in the 18-25 range the same way we recognized adolescence as occurring for the 12-18 age range.

I'm going to leave this quote from TFA here though:

It's reassuring, actually, to think of it as recursive, to imagine that there must always be a cohort of 20-somethings who take their time settling down, just as there must always be a cohort of 50-somethings who worry about it.
 
2010-08-22 11:55:54 AM  

Desmo: Despite all your efforts and plans for the future, most of the time you'll find it comes down to timing: Being in the right place at the right time.

I'm not saying planning doesn't work, or that you shouldn't map out your future, but few people end up doing/being what they planned.


Also this too. It's certainly true in my case. I enjoy where I ended up, but I'm certainly not using my degree, I use skills that honestly I developed on the job, and that first job was right out of high school - I was lucky enough to have a desirable skill just due to my life experiences to that point, and I was lucky enough to be friends with someone who told me about the job and gave me a recommendation, and lucky enough that the place hired on the basis of an exam.

Plenty of my friends similarly have good jobs now because they were the right age at the right time to have an entry-level gig with a firm right as the firm was training EVERYONE on new technology. Kids today are expected to know all that stuff on their own or go to school for it before getting any jobs. Etc.

And all the whining about how humanities degrees are worthless? Tons of them end up as sysadmins...
 
2010-08-22 12:00:05 PM  
Our education system conditions children to be unimaginative and passive. Where once kids were allowed to take responsibility at a young age, now their childhood is extended into their 20s and beyond.

The Underground History of American Education (new window)
 
2010-08-22 12:00:48 PM  

hubiestubert: From a societal point of view, we don't have an actual age for "adulthood" in most of the culture, and there is no real ceremony to show folks that they've grown the fark up.


I think traditionally it was popping out a kid, though more and more people are willingly childless these days so it screws with things.

Still though, having a kid is pretty much the trump card, you can be 17 and if you have a kid, you've "arrived" in a certain sense. You're someone's parent, ergo, you're an adult.

Barring that, there's financial independence (or having been independent at least once).

Then eventually you just get to an age where people can't call you a child with a straight face, even if you're completely failed on all the "milestones" you've transitioned from "child/won't grow up" to "odd adult with issues, that weird guy who just never joined the world, somehow."

I can definitely see the NYT article as agreeing with that point now being 30ish. Even if you've never "made it," say you're 30 and no one will say your issues are due to immaturity, anymore.

/which might be worse
//but it's different
 
2010-08-22 12:10:45 PM  

itazurakko: hubiestubert: From a societal point of view, we don't have an actual age for "adulthood" in most of the culture, and there is no real ceremony to show folks that they've grown the fark up.

I think traditionally it was popping out a kid, though more and more people are willingly childless these days so it screws with things.


This is probably a good place for this quote from the TFA:

Sociologists traditionally define the "transition to adulthood" as marked by five milestones: completing school, leaving home, becoming financially independent, marrying and having a child.

I think being an adult is a lot more nuanced than that. While I consider myself an adult, as a 20-something, I definitely see myself as a "young adult" with still a lot of opportunities ahead of me and I still have a lot of lofty goals and dreams. I am working on the part of weaving my choices and immediate opportunities into the completion of those goals and the attainment of those dreams.
 
2010-08-22 12:12:02 PM  
It seems to me like older generations are a little bit jealous that youth today aren't falling into the same traps they fell into when they turned 20...
 
2010-08-22 12:13:07 PM  
Been in between for a few years now...

Good job, but company is very susceptible to economic conditions, meaning any downturn increases chances of layoffs.

Not to mention until the housing market actually bottoms out, not much I can afford anyway.

/Saving every penny
//Hopefully economics will work in the long term.
 
2010-08-22 12:13:22 PM  
itazurakko--I am getting tired of the sliding scale. I'm in my 40s, and I still get folks who try to use the "you're still young" routine to try to justify being patronizing pricks. The training wheels came off a while ago, and even being a parent doesn't stop them, because you get the, "you won't understand until they leave the nest" routine.

Seriously. In my 40s, a chef, and there are folks who try to use the "young chef" routine. Run a dozen kitchens, profitably, and I'd like, at some point, to lose the patronizing asshats.
 
2010-08-22 12:16:16 PM  
Everyone's an Indigo Kid.

/b-b-b-but Boomers!
 
2010-08-22 12:18:57 PM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: There are too many people, and not enough opportunities. Pretty simple, actually.


True, but the only thing people think of as "opportunities" are jobs working for someone else (corporations, university, government, etc.) Entrepreneurship, which made this country great, has been made increasingly difficult to attempt. Gone are the days where one could simply "hang out a shingle". The costs of starting a new business are so high that failure makes it nearly impossible to "dust yourself off" and try something else.
 
2010-08-22 12:20:19 PM  
Old lady of 47 here.

The 20s were all about farking up and making bad choices. No sane person would be willing to return to those years. We learned from our farkups and got on with life.

That being said, I think we had a higher hardship tolerance. I was in my mid-30s before I approached of standard of living of my parents. Now I'm right about at their level. I had no expectations of leaving the well-feathered nest and living in the manner to which I had been accustomed. It was studio apartments and ramen for a long time. The well-feathered nest was created by my parents from decades of work.

I know things are harder now economically but in my day we had roommates- once lived with 5 people in a 2 bedroom loft. Do the snowflakes of today not have friends? I really don't get this one. If you are earning $9 an hour, get together with 3 friends doing the same- you then have a household income around 70K a year.

Of course, they are still maturing and changing in their 20s. We mature and change until we die. I'd be willing to bet that what a lot of these failure to launch kids have in common is affluence. When you don't have it so cushy, you have to launch.
 
2010-08-22 12:21:54 PM  
Oh gods this shiat. I'm just under 30, with my JD (brand new) and am still looking for my first real job in a shiat economy. It is real hard to pass those life milestones when no one wants to hire someone who doesn't have "experience" but in this economy I can't blame them. There's more attorneys than jobs and far more experienced people than me are out of work and more desperate than I am.

But what is the American elder generation's obsession of having to meet milestones? I'm poor, in debt (all educational), and living in a small apartment. But I'm happy, working a job that doesn't provide enough hours to move up, job hunting and living with my honey (whom I cannot legally marry) in a small affordable apartment. Getting a house would be fiscally irresponsible, as would having a kid (not to mention the expenses of adopting). Granted this would change the second some firm wants to take a chance on some newbie with only two years of working experience like me.

I admit that I've kinda fallen into the trap that being out on my own equals success. Moving back in with my parents would be the fiscally prudent thing to do, but at this point I'd rather wait tables to supplement my income from my law job than do that.
 
2010-08-22 12:30:52 PM  
Stupid-assed parents allow their kids to move back in. My 12 and 9 year old have been told since early on that they are expected to be gone after 18 and college.

- They can take relatively menial jobs if necessary, like I did.

- They can experience this odd thing called "ROOMMATES", which seems to be an odd thought these days.

It is not an option for my kids to not grow up and to move back in. If parents make that a policy, then it isn't going to happen.

/stupid modern parents
 
2010-08-22 12:32:09 PM  

Steam Powered Cat: Oh gods this shiat. I'm just under 30, with my JD (brand new) and am still looking for my first real job in a shiat economy. It is real hard to pass those life milestones when no one wants to hire someone who doesn't have "experience" but in this economy I can't blame them. There's more attorneys than jobs and far more experienced people than me are out of work and more desperate than I am.

But what is the American elder generation's obsession of having to meet milestones? I'm poor, in debt (all educational), and living in a small apartment. But I'm happy, working a job that doesn't provide enough hours to move up, job hunting and living with my honey (whom I cannot legally marry) in a small affordable apartment. Getting a house would be fiscally irresponsible, as would having a kid (not to mention the expenses of adopting). Granted this would change the second some firm wants to take a chance on some newbie with only two years of working experience like me.

I admit that I've kinda fallen into the trap that being out on my own equals success. Moving back in with my parents would be the fiscally prudent thing to do, but at this point I'd rather wait tables to supplement my income from my law job than do that.


Good God, don't go back in with the parents. When our family relocated cross country, my parents offered to have me and the kids stay with them while the DH finished selling our house and packing. I thought it would be a great time- kiddies getting to know their grandparents better etc.

Parents don't stop being parents. It was like being chopped off at the knees. You are back in the kid role. I can't understand how the kids in TFA would want to be back in with the parents. "Where are you going?" and "When will you be back?" are really reasonable things to ask but they feel like nails on a chalkboard after you have been out on your own.

Hear the tips at Olive Garden are good.
 
2010-08-22 12:33:40 PM  

GristleDick: I like bashing the youngsters as much as anybody, (Especially about their complete inability to create decent rock and roll), But things really have changed. When I fist moved out in 1976, I was able to support myself with a part-time minimum wage ($2.60 hr) job and a room mate. Now you have to make a decent salary to even think about moving out. It's HARDER. WAY the fark harder.


This. It's not like it used to be. My father supported a family of five with one good-paying job, and no college degree. My mother never worked, and we were middle class. Try doing that now.

Gramma: I'd like to whine, too. I'm old and I haven't been working steadily for a long time. I lost my husband and now I need to get a job to support myself and my youngest child (she's only 12) who is developmentally delayed and epileptic. I spent a lot of time working in communications engineering so I'm trying to teach myself the new-fangled networking. And I'll be doing this in Michigan so my sister can help take care of my daughter. Wish me luck.
/wish I had the energy of a 20 year-old.
/if anyone knows of a good cisco simulator, please advise


Good luck, Gramma. that sucks, losing a husband and having a kid to support. Even my baby is 17 now.

/49 and have never had a full-time career. Milestones, my ass.
 
2010-08-22 12:36:42 PM  
I read articles like this all the time, but I don't know who these people are that they always talk about.

I'm 27, did have to move back home briefly after college, but I was scheming how I could get out as soon as I got there and didn't stick around more than six months. Even though my parents would have been glad to let me stay, support me financially, etc. Even though this meant taking a string of crap jobs. I graduated at 21 and didn't have a job that used my degree until 25. Oh well. I've always felt this was inappropriate and wanted to be independent of them once I was capable.

Here's the thing: none of my friends or acquaintances, who come from a wide variety of backgrounds, were any different. Yeah, a few of them lived at home for a while, but they either got out ASAP or they were working full-time and it was for a specific reason like to save for a down payment on a house.

I can't think of ANYONE I know that just doesn't want to work, or doesn't have the inclination to live independently. The way cranky Gen-Xers and Boomers talk about this, you'd think that half of my friends were jobless and living at home. In truth, most of them would rather and do take crap jobs just to maintain their independence.

My wife is the same age and from a different part of the country, her circle is exactly the same. This is also true of the people my brother (a couple years older) and her brother (a couple years younger) know.

These stories about "Gen Y" are just more overblown media trend story crap and honestly have very little to do with real people, in my experience.

There is no doubt in my mind that the majority of people who hasn't progressed into "adulthood," whatever the hell that even means, by their 20s these days would like very much to do so and are working their asses off to try and make that happen. Sure there are some slackers or people who haven't found their way, but lord knows that was true for Gen X and the Boomers too.
 
2010-08-22 12:38:58 PM  

Girion47: I made 48K the first year I got a real corporate job. after that, 50K, the year after 55K. More then enough to afford a new car and a nice apartment. Since I actually know what I'm doing, I'm always in demand, and never have worries about job security, and have a pile of fantastic recommendations from both the corporate and private sectors.

Oh yeah. I never went to college either. Go back to making slurpees like your degree qualifies you for.


Don't you have to be at the gym in 26 minutes?
 
2010-08-22 12:39:40 PM  

jbrooks544: Stupid-assed parents allow their kids to move back in. My 12 and 9 year old have been told since early on that they are expected to be gone after 18 and college.

- They can take relatively menial jobs if necessary, like I did.

- They can experience this odd thing called "ROOMMATES", which seems to be an odd thought these days.

It is not an option for my kids to not grow up and to move back in. If parents make that a policy, then it isn't going to happen.

/stupid modern parents


please please please please remember that attitude when, in 20 or 30 years, you're shocked and horrified to be stuck in public nursing care and the kids don't come to visit.
 
2010-08-22 12:41:01 PM  
Age discrimination is running rampant among the boomers of late, both giving and receiving. I've been watching it for the better part of 5 years now. This phenomenon is not isolated to GenMe either.

For us 20 somethings, we've been stereotyped as badly as the "fried chicken and grape drink blacks" and the "perpetually drunk swearing Irish" as the "entitled snowflake, self absorbed, useless brats of the universe". I've been flat told by boomers that "I can't find anyone to mow my lawn anymore. They want to do nothing but sit on their ass and play video games." When pressed, it was because he only wanted to pay the guy 5 bucks to mow for about an hour and provide his own gas/equipment. Yeah, that's some laziness we're showing there.

This is just one of dozens of examples I can pull from personal experience. There is no way I'm isolated in observing this occurrence all over the country.

It's also going on to the Boomers themselves. BoomerA doesn't want to hire BoomerB because BoomerB is too old and they expect more pay, nearly the same as what BoomerA is making, and that doesn't cut it for the stock holders, BoomerC, who treats EVERYONE as though they are bugs under the heels of their boots. So now they're infighting and collectively turning and calling GenMe brats and entitled just to make themselves feel better.

It's a new class warfare that's escalating, only this time it's generational. I doubt the mistakes made by my collective parents will be solved any time sooner than my great grand children. Because frankly, I don't think GenME has the tools to fix it.
 
2010-08-22 12:43:00 PM  

hubiestubert: itazurakko--I am getting tired of the sliding scale. I'm in my 40s, and I still get folks who try to use the "you're still young" routine to try to justify being patronizing pricks. The training wheels came off a while ago, and even being a parent doesn't stop them, because you get the, "you won't understand until they leave the nest" routine.

Seriously. In my 40s, a chef, and there are folks who try to use the "young chef" routine. Run a dozen kitchens, profitably, and I'd like, at some point, to lose the patronizing asshats.


At 40? Damn. Yeah they need a cup of STFU. I suppose if everyone is older, than the fact of being on the young end is one thing, but to use that to be patronizing would be annoying.

I'm 40 this year, but was having the discussion about "turning 30, ZOMG" with someone recently and so reflecting on it, and it struck me that there was a change, at least for me, in the reactions to "I'm 30" or "I'm in my 30s" vs. still being in my 20s. People I work with run from around 25 to 60ish.

Granted, I live in a university town which probably colors things a LOT - if you can pass as the "average" looking student, vs. once you've got enough grey hairs or whatever it is to not pass anymore. There are a lot of people in their 20s (even late 20s) in graduate school, and at least in a university town, that reads as "transient child" still, to a lot of people. If they have kids though, it's different. (But yeah, a lot of it is local "town vs. gown" crap that regular places wouldn't have.)
 
2010-08-22 12:44:05 PM  
Worked shiatty jobs late in high school, throughout college, and a couple years after college with almost no break until the past year. Actually saved most of my money and didn't blow it all on beer and other shiny things. I'm trying to be responsible again to find another shiatty job and move out, stay out of trouble with the law, and not get any women knocked up. I'm just a statistical number in life; what more does society expect from me? lol

/no hate like generation-hate
 
2010-08-22 12:45:00 PM  

Lux Lambert: dead_dangler:
Well for one, getting a better job.

This neck of the woods (Appalachia) has got NOTHING that's worth jumping into for only a year. Yeah, I'm sucking it up and living with my parents, but where's the harm if they're willing to put me up? My sister's a freakin' psychiatrist engaged to a psychiatrist, so I'm the only dependent left.

Plus, I know I'm going to get flack for this, I got a BA in Writing, instead of something manlier or worthier than hard sciences or, hell, nursing. So there ain't much entry-level my sorry ass can do in the Mid-Ohio Valley. Hell, there ain't much for anybody. The local paper just ran a story a few days ago where the headline was just "Where are the jobs?" which probably puts some things in perspective.

Though admittedly, I did get coerced into taking a chemistry class at the local college now because my mother's still convinced that I'm going to suddenly want to be a doctor in three years. Gotta love Asian parents...


That's why I had roommates until I was almost 30. I didn't live with my parents. I lived with other young adults. I am not faulting anyone who wants to save a little money, but there have been liberal arts majors for a long time. They have never been able to get high-paying jobs right out of college. But, if you work hard, you get promoted - often ahead of business majors.
 
2010-08-22 12:49:49 PM  

DeaH: That's why I had roommates until I was almost 30.


Yeah, I had roommates for a long time myself. Rent an apartment with three people, take the smallest bedroom, rent is cheap. When people moved out for various reasons, those of us staying put an ad in the paper for new roommates and interviewed 'em. We always had takers.

I had good friends from my roommates always. The living room was an actual common living room, we'd hang out in there together.
 
2010-08-22 12:51:18 PM  

dead_dangler: GristleDick: I like bashing the youngsters as much as anybody, (Especially about their complete inability to create decent rock and roll), But things really have changed. When I fist moved out in 1976, I was able to support myself with a part-time minimum wage ($2.60 hr) job and a room mate. Now you have to make a decent salary to even think about moving out. It's HARDER. WAY the fark harder.

No shiat. Back then, all you had to pay for was rent and food. Nowadays you've got to pay for high-speed internet, unlimited data plans for your cell phone, x-box live accounts, and a whole host of other expenses.


Most of those expenses are completely unnecessary.
In the late 70's I had a job, a used (and paid for) car and a roommate. Life was good.
 
2010-08-22 12:52:09 PM  
My answer? Lack of jobs. As a IT veteran of seven years, wages haven't stagnated, they have dropped. Positions that would have paid a good 50k a few years ago now are being dropped to $7-9 an hour. I interviewed for quite a few jobs in the last two months. The best one was in the middle of nowhere, 40k+ a year, that I didn't get...because I wasn't a programmer on top of being an IT tech, on top of being a web designer. With seven years of experience in EACH.

It's an employer's market and they are greedy as hell. Their motto is 'milk it for everything that it's worth' and they have no shame in telling you that you should be grateful just to be working instead of making a livable wage. So now I'm changing my career, focusing on finishing my Masters, and making the change to my second career. I could make more being an English teacher than I could in technology. That should say it all right there.

itsfullofstars: My company has had an entry level Computer Science position open for months. We can get anyone remotely qualified to interview for it. The only interest has been from kids with bachelors in business, accounting, or "Computer Information Systems" with little more than remedial computer skills. I'd love to find a young military vet with some basic computer skills and build them into a good software designer but cant even find that.

Any of the former interns or other contacts we've gone to are either taking time off to backpack Europe or are off to grad school for reasons they cant explain. The lack of interest in working seems to be a 20-something phenomenon as well.


If you're serious, throw me a line. My email is in my profile and I'm willing to apply and move if you're training. No kidding.

Oh, and they're probably doing grad school/wandering off because America really doesn't seem worth it. We're talking about kids who were raised by dual income families and see first-hand what that type of working environment does to the family. So yeah, I can see the reasoning behind it. It's not a matter of growing up, it's a matter of seeing how stressful and damaging it could be.

Anyway, throw me a line. I wouldn't mind changing to software designing if you're training.
 
2010-08-22 12:54:54 PM  

logophile: jbrooks544: Stupid-assed parents allow their kids to move back in. My 12 and 9 year old have been told since early on that they are expected to be gone after 18 and college.

- They can take relatively menial jobs if necessary, like I did.

- They can experience this odd thing called "ROOMMATES", which seems to be an odd thought these days.

It is not an option for my kids to not grow up and to move back in. If parents make that a policy, then it isn't going to happen.

/stupid modern parents

please please please please remember that attitude when, in 20 or 30 years, you're shocked and horrified to be stuck in public nursing care and the kids don't come to visit.


Yeah... Ok...?

No, what you say is kooky. It is really quit simple - If your kid suggests he live in your house after college, you say "no". My parents did this and I'm not bitter. I had roommates for a couple years.

It is called "being an adult".
 
2010-08-22 1:05:02 PM  

ajgeek: Age discrimination is running rampant among the boomers of late, both giving and receiving. I've been watching it for the better part of 5 years now. This phenomenon is not isolated to GenMe either.

For us 20 somethings, we've been stereotyped as badly as the "fried chicken and grape drink blacks" and the "perpetually drunk swearing Irish" as the "entitled snowflake, self absorbed, useless brats of the universe". I've been flat told by boomers that "I can't find anyone to mow my lawn anymore. They want to do nothing but sit on their ass and play video games." When pressed, it was because he only wanted to pay the guy 5 bucks to mow for about an hour and provide his own gas/equipment. Yeah, that's some laziness we're showing there.

This is just one of dozens of examples I can pull from personal experience. There is no way I'm isolated in observing this occurrence all over the country.

It's also going on to the Boomers themselves. BoomerA doesn't want to hire BoomerB because BoomerB is too old and they expect more pay, nearly the same as what BoomerA is making, and that doesn't cut it for the stock holders, BoomerC, who treats EVERYONE as though they are bugs under the heels of their boots. So now they're infighting and collectively turning and calling GenMe brats and entitled just to make themselves feel better.

It's a new class warfare that's escalating, only this time it's generational. I doubt the mistakes made by my collective parents will be solved any time sooner than my great grand children. Because frankly, I don't think GenME has the tools to fix it.


I don't think anybody has the tools to fix it. We got here out of luck: most of Europe being destroyed in World War II meant America had a leg up on everybody else. And we didn't really expand on it.

But I hear what you're saying. I'd add that most of the Boomers are also adjusting to age badly as well and becoming bitter. The Boomers were always seen as the force of youth, even when they turned weird in the '80s. Now that they're the older generation, they're losing their minds. The generation that had Woodstock and claimed to be the moving force behind the big changes we saw in the '60s is now pulling the same shiat as accused their parents of doing. This isn't accidental: they wanted to be youthful forever and are clawing their way into infinity with everybody else and they can't handle it. Their parents at least aged gracefully. The Baby Boomers are the generational equivalent of the guy in the toupee who makes everybody want to believe it's real.

I would say it's the typical greediness that we saw in the '80s until you see how farking bitter they are about everything. It's hard to understand how the generation that changed everything, who was accused of being childish, also throws that insult onto others. It's very depressing until you realize that maybe Generation X and the Millennials are growing out of that to some extent, and it's not a generational gap, but a flaw with the American System of Success As Excess that is creating a system of entitled bitterness. When more is never enough, you get a system of constant underdogs foaming at the mouth for more and more and pushing other dogs out of the bowl to get it.

But I digress. The Baby Boomers have shown that they aren't as special as they thought. They fall back to the same routines. It's a shame, but I guess everything ends. So it goes.
 
2010-08-22 1:25:24 PM  
One thing I would suggest for people about to go to school as young adults is this: Dont major in dingbat shiat ! If you have a huge trust fund waiting for you then please get a degree in Womens studies or art history or theatre. If you would like to one day repay student loans and have a real job get a degree in computer science, civil engineering, accounting etc.

I have a cousin who has a zillion dollar private university degree in English, yes she works in a library making squat dollars. She can kick a$$ playing Jeopardy from her couch and she can quote shakespeare but she cant afford a decent car.
 
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