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(The New York Times)   Why the hell won't kids grow up these days? Warning: Originally ten pages, and still doesn't say why they won't get the hell off Subby's lawn   (nytimes.com) divider line
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8448 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Aug 2010 at 10:18 AM (10 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



148 Comments     (+0 »)
 
 
2010-08-22 2:02:15 AM  
trollcats.comView Full Size
 
2010-08-22 2:11:06 AM  
oh thank the lord, someone figured out how to submit the 'single page' option of a long article


+1 for having brains heromitter
 
2010-08-22 2:43:25 AM  
Although a little unusual, I want to thank the submitter for submitting this article.

A well-written, thought out, and interesting article indeed.

/+1
 
2010-08-22 2:51:22 AM  
All kids grow up. Unless they were poorly parented.
 
2010-08-22 10:25:13 AM  
Why? Because you've farking ruined the world Baby Boomers, and it's far easier to ride out the end of the world on your decadent asses then it is to rally to a lost cause of saving the world.
 
2010-08-22 10:25:53 AM  
Home schooled? I don't blame people but home schooled?

Plus, with record debt coming out of university, no wonder they can't follow that decade-old tradition of passing the 5 transitions by 30.

I tend to think before the Great Depression burned-in the phrase "home is where the heart is" things were a lot different for young Americans.
 
2010-08-22 10:27:20 AM  
Because parents won't let them? You protect a kid from anything that would require independence or risk-taking and then wonder why they fail when they have to take risks and make their own choices...
 
2010-08-22 10:27:21 AM  
One could also point to the fact that the generations before the baby boomers did tend to live together as a family unit quite frequently. Maybe all this independence is what's abnormal, Maybe it's wrong to leave your loved ones in a nursing home so you can have your own house to yourself.
 
2010-08-22 10:27:44 AM  
They don't grow up because their entire focus seems to be the truly unimportant things in life, like Facebook and cell phones.
 
2010-08-22 10:28:25 AM  

fluffy2097: Maybe it's wrong to leave your loved ones in a nursing home so you can have your own house to yourself.


If that's wrong, I don't wanna be right.
 
2010-08-22 10:29:35 AM  
When an entry level position requires a masters and 10 years experience for not enough money to live in a studio apartment where you're likely to be stabbed when checking the mail, what choices do you really have?
 
2010-08-22 10:30:58 AM  

Girion47: When an entry level position requires a masters and 10 years experience for not enough money to live in a studio apartment where you're likely to be stabbed when checking the mail, what choices do you really have?


Wahhhhhhh, Life is HARD.
 
2010-08-22 10:31:27 AM  

dead_dangler: fluffy2097: Maybe it's wrong to leave your loved ones in a nursing home so you can have your own house to yourself.

If that's wrong, I don't wanna be right.


I feel you on that, but I also think it would be a crying shame to let my parents sell their house and property and move into an assisted living community or a condominium. I could be very happy to die in the same house I was born in.
 
2010-08-22 10:32:27 AM  

Girion47: When an entry level position requires a masters and 10 years experience for not enough money to live in a studio apartment where you're likely to be stabbed when checking the mail, what choices do you really have?


A second job comes to mind.

You could probably save 400 bucks a month if you stopped smoking weed too.
 
2010-08-22 10:39:12 AM  

dead_dangler: Girion47: When an entry level position requires a masters and 10 years experience for not enough money to live in a studio apartment where you're likely to be stabbed when checking the mail, what choices do you really have?

Wahhhhhhh, Life is HARD.


fluffy2097: Girion47: When an entry level position requires a masters and 10 years experience for not enough money to live in a studio apartment where you're likely to be stabbed when checking the mail, what choices do you really have?

A second job comes to mind.

You could probably save 400 bucks a month if you stopped smoking weed too.


Disclaimer Time:

I'm 27, married, own a house and 2 dogs. Got a job back in february after my last one ran out of work and i was no longer billable. Don't smoke weed and a second job isn't possible when I am essentially oncall for any contract opportunities pop up. "Sorry GSA, we'd provide you with an IH but he has to cover a shift at 7/11 cleaning the slurpee machine"

Anyways, while on the job hunt I ran into that a lot. Any professional position, you know the whole reason I went to school, made impossible demands to even be considered for an interview.
 
2010-08-22 10:39:26 AM  
FTA: "What is it about 20-Somethings..."

Heck, I know 40 somethings who haven't grown up yet and still live with their parents.

ShillinTheVillain: Because parents won't let them? You protect a kid from anything that would require independence or risk-taking and then wonder why they fail when they have to take risks and make their own choices...


THIS. I don't work around too many younger people right now but I hear complaints regularly about how much hand-holding they need.

I also read on lots of internet forums where parents are having problems with their teenage kid and the solution always seems to be some form of more control. It's like they fail to understand the whole idea of guidance or that kids make mistakes they'll just have to live with and think the solution to every problem is to become more dictatorial since what didn't work on a four-year-old (or what they failed to try back then) will totally work on someone old enough to drive.
 
2010-08-22 10:43:34 AM  

Girion47: dead_dangler: Girion47: When an entry level position requires a masters and 10 years experience for not enough money to live in a studio apartment where you're likely to be stabbed when checking the mail, what choices do you really have?

Wahhhhhhh, Life is HARD.

fluffy2097: Girion47: When an entry level position requires a masters and 10 years experience for not enough money to live in a studio apartment where you're likely to be stabbed when checking the mail, what choices do you really have?

A second job comes to mind.

You could probably save 400 bucks a month if you stopped smoking weed too.

Disclaimer Time:

I'm 27, married, own a house and 2 dogs. Got a job back in february after my last one ran out of work and i was no longer billable. Don't smoke weed and a second job isn't possible when I am essentially oncall for any contract opportunities pop up. "Sorry GSA, we'd provide you with an IH but he has to cover a shift at 7/11 cleaning the slurpee machine"

Anyways, while on the job hunt I ran into that a lot. Any professional position, you know the whole reason I went to school, made impossible demands to even be considered for an interview.


I'm confused. Do you own a house, or do you live in a studio apartment where you're likely to be stabbed when checking the mail?
 
2010-08-22 10:43:47 AM  
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Poor wittle snowfwakes!
 
2010-08-22 10:43:47 AM  
I like bashing the youngsters as much as anybody, (Especially about their complete inability to create decent rock and roll), But things really have changed. When I fist moved out in 1976, I was able to support myself with a part-time minimum wage ($2.60 hr) job and a room mate. Now you have to make a decent salary to even think about moving out. It's HARDER. WAY the fark harder.
 
2010-08-22 10:45:01 AM  

dead_dangler: They don't grow up because their entire focus seems to be the truly unimportant things in life, like Facebook and cell phones.


Alright, I'll bite. I'm in limbo for a year, (hopefully) working at Borders until graduate school starts fall next year. What should my focus be so that I'm focusing on the truly important things in life?

/checks facebook
//still trying to decide on a crackberry
 
2010-08-22 10:45:10 AM  

Girion47: When an entry level position requires a masters and 10 years experience for not enough money to live in a studio apartment where you're likely to be stabbed when checking the mail, what choices do you really have?


A time machine allowing you to go back in time and major in something other than English or Art history comes to mind. I know its not the go-go early 2000's anymore but come on.

My company has had an entry level Computer Science position open for months. We can get anyone remotely qualified to interview for it. The only interest has been from kids with bachelors in business, accounting, or "Computer Information Systems" with little more than remedial computer skills. I'd love to find a young military vet with some basic computer skills and build them into a good software designer but cant even find that.

Any of the former interns or other contacts we've gone to are either taking time off to backpack Europe or are off to grad school for reasons they cant explain. The lack of interest in working seems to be a 20-something phenomenon as well.
 
2010-08-22 10:46:09 AM  

GristleDick: I like bashing the youngsters as much as anybody, (Especially about their complete inability to create decent rock and roll), But things really have changed. When I fist moved out in 1976, I was able to support myself with a part-time minimum wage ($2.60 hr) job and a room mate. Now you have to make a decent salary to even think about moving out. It's HARDER. WAY the fark harder.


No shiat. Back then, all you had to pay for was rent and food. Nowadays you've got to pay for high-speed internet, unlimited data plans for your cell phone, x-box live accounts, and a whole host of other expenses.
 
2010-08-22 10:47:05 AM  
fluffy2097:Maybe it's wrong to leave your loved ones in a nursing home so you can have your own house to yourself.

Sounds like someone is posting from a nursing home
 
2010-08-22 10:47:25 AM  

Girion47: "

Anyways, while on the job hunt I ran into that a lot. Any professional position, you know the whole reason I went to school, made impossible demands to even be considered for an interview.


Same here. I lost my job in finance in '08, and when applying for entry level positions after 4 years building and managing a portfolio of 750 clients over $125 million, I was told by several firms that they want somebody with more experience. For entry-level work. I bought a house at 23 and looked like a success at that point, and then at 26 I was unemployed, barely kept the house and couldn't get work beyond part-time positions because I was either grossly overqualified or didn't have enough experience. If a reporter tried to tell me I was "refusing to grow up" last summer, I'd have probably ripped their head off and shat into their windpipe.
 
2010-08-22 10:47:40 AM  
A Canadian study reported that a typical 30-year-old in 2001 had completed the same number of milestones as a 25-year-old in the early '70s.

If life expectancy is also increasing, is this really a problem? Maybe we'll just start to live longer and slower...

/hasn't had to move back home... yet
//barring a major catastrophe, should be okay
 
2010-08-22 10:48:07 AM  

Lux Lambert: dead_dangler: They don't grow up because their entire focus seems to be the truly unimportant things in life, like Facebook and cell phones.

Alright, I'll bite. I'm in limbo for a year, (hopefully) working at Borders until graduate school starts fall next year. What should my focus be so that I'm focusing on the truly important things in life?

/checks facebook
//still trying to decide on a crackberry


Well for one, getting a better job.
 
2010-08-22 10:49:21 AM  

Girion47: dead_dangler: Girion47: When an entry level position requires a masters and 10 years experience for not enough money to live in a studio apartment where you're likely to be stabbed when checking the mail, what choices do you really have?

Wahhhhhhh, Life is HARD.

fluffy2097: Girion47: When an entry level position requires a masters and 10 years experience for not enough money to live in a studio apartment where you're likely to be stabbed when checking the mail, what choices do you really have?

A second job comes to mind.

You could probably save 400 bucks a month if you stopped smoking weed too.

Disclaimer Time:

I'm 27, married, own a house and 2 dogs. Got a job back in february after my last one ran out of work and i was no longer billable. Don't smoke weed and a second job isn't possible when I am essentially oncall for any contract opportunities pop up. "Sorry GSA, we'd provide you with an IH but he has to cover a shift at 7/11 cleaning the slurpee machine"

Anyways, while on the job hunt I ran into that a lot. Any professional position, you know the whole reason I went to school, made impossible demands to even be considered for an interview.


You sound like an enormous whiner.

I made 48K the first year I got a real corporate job. after that, 50K, the year after 55K. More then enough to afford a new car and a nice apartment. Since I actually know what I'm doing, I'm always in demand, and never have worries about job security, and have a pile of fantastic recommendations from both the corporate and private sectors.

Oh yeah. I never went to college either. Go back to making slurpees like your degree qualifies you for.
 
2010-08-22 10:49:59 AM  

dead_dangler: GristleDick: I like bashing the youngsters as much as anybody, (Especially about their complete inability to create decent rock and roll), But things really have changed. When I fist moved out in 1976, I was able to support myself with a part-time minimum wage ($2.60 hr) job and a room mate. Now you have to make a decent salary to even think about moving out. It's HARDER. WAY the fark harder.

No shiat. Back then, all you had to pay for was rent and food. Nowadays you've got to pay for high-speed internet, unlimited data plans for your cell phone, x-box live accounts, and a whole host of other expenses.


$7.25*40*4*.8 = $928, approximately, after taxes. Figure rent at $600, utilities are $300, and food is...oh wait, you don't eat at that wage. And that's assuming you can get 40 hrs a week, every week.
 
2010-08-22 10:51:26 AM  
I do not get this phenomenon of living at home and extending your childhood a few more years.

At 18 I was given the 'warm fuzzy boot' out the door. Meaning, go to university, but you are not living at home to do so. Go learn how to be an adult when the consequences are minimal and if you fail badly you can come home, but only until you pick yourself up again.

In preparation for this I was taught how to cook meals (not just pop something in the microwave), do my own laundry and how to manage my own money. These things have helped greatly in my life so far.

Of course I still indulge in childlike behavior at times, but not to the point that it would affect my job, house or family.
 
2010-08-22 10:52:52 AM  
dead_dangler:
Well for one, getting a better job.


This neck of the woods (Appalachia) has got NOTHING that's worth jumping into for only a year. Yeah, I'm sucking it up and living with my parents, but where's the harm if they're willing to put me up? My sister's a freakin' psychiatrist engaged to a psychiatrist, so I'm the only dependent left.

Plus, I know I'm going to get flack for this, I got a BA in Writing, instead of something manlier or worthier than hard sciences or, hell, nursing. So there ain't much entry-level my sorry ass can do in the Mid-Ohio Valley. Hell, there ain't much for anybody. The local paper just ran a story a few days ago where the headline was just "Where are the jobs?" which probably puts some things in perspective.

Though admittedly, I did get coerced into taking a chemistry class at the local college now because my mother's still convinced that I'm going to suddenly want to be a doctor in three years. Gotta love Asian parents...
 
2010-08-22 10:54:33 AM  

Kasira: dead_dangler: GristleDick: I like bashing the youngsters as much as anybody, (Especially about their complete inability to create decent rock and roll), But things really have changed. When I fist moved out in 1976, I was able to support myself with a part-time minimum wage ($2.60 hr) job and a room mate. Now you have to make a decent salary to even think about moving out. It's HARDER. WAY the fark harder.

No shiat. Back then, all you had to pay for was rent and food. Nowadays you've got to pay for high-speed internet, unlimited data plans for your cell phone, x-box live accounts, and a whole host of other expenses.

$7.25*40*4*.8 = $928, approximately, after taxes. Figure rent at $600, utilities are $300, and food is...oh wait, you don't eat at that wage. And that's assuming you can get 40 hrs a week, every week.


$300 for utilities when renting? I don't pay that much and I have to power and heat a house.

In any case, I know people who make minimum wage in metro Vancouver (not a cheap place to live), and somehow they can do it.
 
2010-08-22 10:56:48 AM  

Lux Lambert: dead_dangler:
Well for one, getting a better job.

This neck of the woods (Appalachia) has got NOTHING that's worth jumping into for only a year. Yeah, I'm sucking it up and living with my parents, but where's the harm if they're willing to put me up? My sister's a freakin' psychiatrist engaged to a psychiatrist, so I'm the only dependent left.

Plus, I know I'm going to get flack for this, I got a BA in Writing, instead of something manlier or worthier than hard sciences or, hell, nursing. So there ain't much entry-level my sorry ass can do in the Mid-Ohio Valley. Hell, there ain't much for anybody. The local paper just ran a story a few days ago where the headline was just "Where are the jobs?" which probably puts some things in perspective.

Though admittedly, I did get coerced into taking a chemistry class at the local college now because my mother's still convinced that I'm going to suddenly want to be a doctor in three years. Gotta love Asian parents...


You don't have to justify anything to me. I don't actually care.

However, your life is going to continue to suck until you stop making excuses.
 
2010-08-22 10:57:27 AM  

ShillinTheVillain: Girion47: "

Anyways, while on the job hunt I ran into that a lot. Any professional position, you know the whole reason I went to school, made impossible demands to even be considered for an interview.

Same here. I lost my job in finance in '08, and when applying for entry level positions after 4 years building and managing a portfolio of 750 clients over $125 million, I was told by several firms that they want somebody with more experience. For entry-level work. I bought a house at 23 and looked like a success at that point, and then at 26 I was unemployed, barely kept the house and couldn't get work beyond part-time positions because I was either grossly overqualified or didn't have enough experience. If a reporter tried to tell me I was "refusing to grow up" last summer, I'd have probably ripped their head off and shat into their windpipe.


Maybe I misunderstood TFA, but it seems like they're talking about people who are floating through their 20s, going from college to backpacking to yoga retreats to underground concert promoter to grad school to god knows what. Your situation is very different from that.
 
2010-08-22 10:58:10 AM  
Things that have been increasing faster than inflation for 30+ years:
-Medical/insurance costs
-College tuition costs
-in a lot of areas, housing costs

Things that have not:
-Salaries for non-professional (no degree required) jobs
-# of entry-level posititions

It actually *is* harder to be 22 today than it was 20-30 years ago, and it has nothing to with facebook, or cell phones or any of the other stuff old people on here complain about. Credential-inflation means almost any job that's not completely dead-end requires a degree (or a graduate degree), the actual degree costs a lot more, and when you get out, housing and medical stuff cost a *lot* more (plus you likely have student loans).
 
2010-08-22 10:58:26 AM  

fluffy2097: Girion47: dead_dangler: Girion47: When an entry level position requires a masters and 10 years experience for not enough money to live in a studio apartment where you're likely to be stabbed when checking the mail, what choices do you really have?

Wahhhhhhh, Life is HARD.

fluffy2097: Girion47: When an entry level position requires a masters and 10 years experience for not enough money to live in a studio apartment where you're likely to be stabbed when checking the mail, what choices do you really have?

A second job comes to mind.

You could probably save 400 bucks a month if you stopped smoking weed too.

Disclaimer Time:

I'm 27, married, own a house and 2 dogs. Got a job back in february after my last one ran out of work and i was no longer billable. Don't smoke weed and a second job isn't possible when I am essentially oncall for any contract opportunities pop up. "Sorry GSA, we'd provide you with an IH but he has to cover a shift at 7/11 cleaning the slurpee machine"

Anyways, while on the job hunt I ran into that a lot. Any professional position, you know the whole reason I went to school, made impossible demands to even be considered for an interview.

You sound like an enormous whiner.

I made 48K the first year I got a real corporate job. after that, 50K, the year after 55K. More then enough to afford a new car and a nice apartment. Since I actually know what I'm doing, I'm always in demand, and never have worries about job security, and have a pile of fantastic recommendations from both the corporate and private sectors.

Oh yeah. I never went to college either. Go back to making slurpees like your degree qualifies you for.



See you at the gym in 25 min.
 
2010-08-22 11:00:19 AM  

itsfullofstars: Girion47: When an entry level position requires a masters and 10 years experience for not enough money to live in a studio apartment where you're likely to be stabbed when checking the mail, what choices do you really have?

A time machine allowing you to go back in time and major in something other than English or Art history comes to mind. I know its not the go-go early 2000's anymore but come on.


actually degree is in Environmental Health, a B.S. I wasn't foolish enough to believe a B.A. would be useful for anything that matters.

fluffy2097:

You sound like an enormous whiner.

I made 48K the first year I got a real corporate job. after that, 50K, the year after 55K. More then enough to afford a new car and a nice apartment. Since I actually know what I'm doing, I'm always in demand, and never have worries about job security, and have a pile of fantastic recommendations from both the corporate and private sectors.

Oh yeah. I never went to college either. Go back to making slurpees like your degree qualifies you for.


48? thats it? my first job paid 52k, but who cares?
FYI Corporate and Private sectors are the same thing. do you mean corporate/private and government sectors? I can provide those too, I'm excellent at my field and my degree gives me a lot of technical knowledge to work with experts in their specialty to improve the safety of what they do.

so drop the "GOOD JOB IS EASY DERP" speech. I've got the perfect resume, great interview skills, and a very effective cover letter, also the willingness to leave the DC area. Yet there was little I could apply for even though I was qualified, that years experience thing keeps creeping up without no-experience positions opening up to get people started.
 
2010-08-22 11:01:06 AM  
You know, I'm coming to the conclusion that the easiest way to get ahead in life is simply to stop being nice and just start being an asshole. I believe "ruthless" or "shrewd" is the proper business term.

Either that or join the military, apparently. They're always hiring.
 
2010-08-22 11:04:08 AM  

Lux Lambert: Either that or join the military, apparently. They're always hiring.


Trust me. Bad idea.
 
2010-08-22 11:04:19 AM  
1. They almost all have degrees, meaning their degrees are fairly worthless. Especially since there are basically only three types of jobs left: tech, medical and service. The folks that used to work skilled trades, manufacturing, heavy industry and other "non-college degree" jobs are now getting degrees because those jobs are gone.
2. There are no good entry level jobs for them, because they've either been outsourced, downsized, or are still being held by the 30- or 40- something who first got it in their 20's but couldn't move up because the Baby Boomers aren't retiring.
3. Even if they have a hard science degree and do get a job, real wages have been stagnant since the 70's so they're working 50% longer for 50% less purchasing power than their parents did at the same age. It is a sad but true fact that the days of someone being able to get married and start having kids right out of high school in relative financial comfort are long gone.
4. Because they all have degrees, they all have student loans, meaning they're massively in debt both personally and collectively (in terms on the massive national debt waiting for them - thanks, Boomers!)
5. Because employers have no concept of loyalty, THEY have no concept of loyalty, and change jobs like clothes from the necessities of survival, not a sense of entitlement like Boomers would like to think.
6. But because they're 20-somethings, no one bothers to seriously ask them why they do these things; instead, they just assume they're insolent, etc. and write articles about it.
7. In a few years, look to see articles like this about 30- somethings, as today's 20- somethings age, but their lot doesn't improve.
 
2010-08-22 11:04:41 AM  

Girion47: itsfullofstars: Girion47: When an entry level position requires a masters and 10 years experience for not enough money to live in a studio apartment where you're likely to be stabbed when checking the mail, what choices do you really have?

A time machine allowing you to go back in time and major in something other than English or Art history comes to mind. I know its not the go-go early 2000's anymore but come on.


actually degree is in Environmental Health, a B.S. I wasn't foolish enough to believe a B.A. would be useful for anything that matters.fluffy2097:

You sound like an enormous whiner.

I made 48K the first year I got a real corporate job. after that, 50K, the year after 55K. More then enough to afford a new car and a nice apartment. Since I actually know what I'm doing, I'm always in demand, and never have worries about job security, and have a pile of fantastic recommendations from both the corporate and private sectors.

Oh yeah. I never went to college either. Go back to making slurpees like your degree qualifies you for.

48? thats it? my first job paid 52k, but who cares?
FYI Corporate and Private sectors are the same thing. do you mean corporate/private and government sectors? I can provide those too, I'm excellent at my field and my degree gives me a lot of technical knowledge to work with experts in their specialty to improve the safety of what they do.

so drop the "GOOD JOB IS EASY DERP" speech. I've got the perfect resume, great interview skills, and a very effective cover letter, also the willingness to leave the DC area. Yet there was little I could apply for even though I was qualified, that years experience thing keeps creeping up without no-experience positions opening up to get people started.


The fact you have all this proof and willingness and still are failing, while a loser like me has continuous gainful employment, can only prove that all the education in the world doesn't fix the case of stupid you have, and that it is apparent to every interviewer you meet with.
 
2010-08-22 11:06:32 AM  
Hate to break it to you youngsters, but it doesn't necessarily get any easier. Try being mid-40's and getting laid off from your job in a state with a pretty high unemployment rate. Yeah it sucks. At least the young-uns can get jobs at the coffee houses with the hispters...us 40-somethings, well we're competing against your frikkin grandparents for the greeter job at the only wal-mart in town. And trust me, Hooters ain't hiring 40-somethings unless your tits are around 3 years old...

Face kids, life is not all puppy dogs and unicorns. It's gonna suck ass sometimes, and those sometimes can last a while. But you suck it up, realize that this too shall come to pass, and you get on with living.
 
2010-08-22 11:06:47 AM  
As someone in my mid 20's, I totally agree our brains are ever-changing, but that cant be used as an excuse to entirely forfeit responsibility regarding our futures. I think my generation is one of finger pointing and blame shifting, to where it's mom and dad's fault, an incompetent teacher, opportunities with expiration dates (because we like to ponder each decision from every excruciating angle, so afraid to make a mistake no action is taken at all), and anything else we can put the burden of failure on, so it does not rest upon our shoulders.

There has to be some balance between "finding ourselves" and not being a complete shiat stain upon society. I think we are so afraid of failing, most of my generation doesnt bother trying. Have adventure, find your niche in life, but try to do SOMETHING with yourself in the meantime... even if that's working at borders while you get more education like the dude above said. Not everyone knows what they want to do with themselves right out of the gate. Or hell, I've thought I knew what I wanted- in my early 20's, and found out I was wrong... But, there's nothing wrong with that & your 20's are a good time for that; it sends you back to the figurative drawing board.

/disclaimer: 26, marketing manager, own my condo & car.
 
2010-08-22 11:08:46 AM  

Lux Lambert: You know, I'm coming to the conclusion that the easiest way to get ahead in life is simply to stop being nice and just start being an asshole. I believe "ruthless" or "shrewd" is the proper business term.

Either that or join the military, apparently. They're always hiring.


It's not about being nice vs being an asshole. It's about having a clear direction and not letting anything stand in your way.
 
2010-08-22 11:09:04 AM  

Lux Lambert: You know, I'm coming to the conclusion that the easiest way to get ahead in life is simply to stop being nice and just start being an asshole. I believe "ruthless" or "shrewd" is the proper business term.

Either that or join the military, apparently. They're always hiring.



True, but it is getting harder to stay in the Air Force, possibly the safest/smartest branch to be in, which has been steadily cutting numbers. How do I know this? I joined the AF, and couldn't stay in past my 4 years because they were reducing my career field. One of the closest things the military has to a layoff.

The army, well, has changed boot camp to be easier just to keep recruitment up. So even the they are starting to coddle today's youth.
 
2010-08-22 11:09:08 AM  

fluffy2097: Girion47: itsfullofstars: Girion47: When an entry level position requires a masters and 10 years experience for not enough money to live in a studio apartment where you're likely to be stabbed when checking the mail, what choices do you really have?

A time machine allowing you to go back in time and major in something other than English or Art history comes to mind. I know its not the go-go early 2000's anymore but come on.


actually degree is in Environmental Health, a B.S. I wasn't foolish enough to believe a B.A. would be useful for anything that matters.fluffy2097:

You sound like an enormous whiner.

I made 48K the first year I got a real corporate job. after that, 50K, the year after 55K. More then enough to afford a new car and a nice apartment. Since I actually know what I'm doing, I'm always in demand, and never have worries about job security, and have a pile of fantastic recommendations from both the corporate and private sectors.

Oh yeah. I never went to college either. Go back to making slurpees like your degree qualifies you for.

48? thats it? my first job paid 52k, but who cares?
FYI Corporate and Private sectors are the same thing. do you mean corporate/private and government sectors? I can provide those too, I'm excellent at my field and my degree gives me a lot of technical knowledge to work with experts in their specialty to improve the safety of what they do.

so drop the "GOOD JOB IS EASY DERP" speech. I've got the perfect resume, great interview skills, and a very effective cover letter, also the willingness to leave the DC area. Yet there was little I could apply for even though I was qualified, that years experience thing keeps creeping up without no-experience positions opening up to get people started.

The fact you have all this proof and willingness and still are failing, while a loser like me has continuous gainful employment, can only prove that all the education in the world doesn't fix the case of stupid you have, and that it is apparent to every interviewer you meet with.


I'm stupid although you've missed the part where I said I have a job? I'm not failing but I can certainly commiserate with fellow people my age, I've seen the challenges they have, I couldn't imagine having a B.A. how depressing that must be.

every interview led to a job offer, unfortunately every job offer was extremely low considering commute time/costs.
 
2010-08-22 11:12:41 AM  
Meh, fark up the economy by encouraging some wacky notion that greed is a key to success... then complain about people who don't have jobs... go fig.
 
2010-08-22 11:13:46 AM  

unalivezombie: True, but it is getting harder to stay in the Air Force, possibly the safest/smartest branch to be in, which has been steadily cutting numbers. How do I know this? I joined the AF, and couldn't stay in past my 4 years because they were reducing my career field. One of the closest things the military has to a layoff.


Couldn't you retrain for another career field? Not that you'd necessarily want to, but I know in the Navy they're reducing some rates, but if you're good in your fitness and disciplinary records you can go to another A-school.
 
2010-08-22 11:14:25 AM  

firefly212: Meh, fark up the economy by encouraging some wacky notion that greed is a key to success... then complain about people who don't have jobs... go fig.


its the same as min/maxing in a raid.
 
2010-08-22 11:15:33 AM  

ShillinTheVillain: unalivezombie: True, but it is getting harder to stay in the Air Force, possibly the safest/smartest branch to be in, which has been steadily cutting numbers. How do I know this? I joined the AF, and couldn't stay in past my 4 years because they were reducing my career field. One of the closest things the military has to a layoff.

Couldn't you retrain for another career field? Not that you'd necessarily want to, but I know in the Navy they're reducing some rates, but if you're good in your fitness and disciplinary records you can go to another A-school.


would an E8 still get E8 pay if he has the tech knowledge of an E4?
 
2010-08-22 11:16:35 AM  

McVodkaBreath: so afraid to make a mistake no action is taken at all


THIS! OMG, so what if you fail? It's not like the entire world is going to come to a halt if you fail...get over it...learn from it, adapt, change and grow as a person...

This group doesn't KNOW how to fail or lose or get told you don't deserve the corner office for having a Masters but no experience, or that sometimes you job will include tasks you hate to do and no you don't get to pawn them off. Trophies and ribbons for everyone, let's not keep score...Fark that. Losing builds character, makes you want to work harder and learn so you won't lose again, and makes you hungry for a victory.
 
2010-08-22 11:17:00 AM  
Those five milestones can fark off.

Not everyone wants kids, or to get married. I'm a couple of years out of my twenties now, but amongst my (educated, professional, fairly well off) peer group it's still a minority that have kids,

Hell, I have no desire for kids right now but I passed their other milestones more than a decade ago.

Is society changing and are people doing certain things (kids, marriage) later? Yeah sure. Is it a sign that everyone under 30 is a sub-adult pretending to be a child? I don't think so.
 
2010-08-22 11:18:08 AM  

dead_dangler: Lux Lambert: You know, I'm coming to the conclusion that the easiest way to get ahead in life is simply to stop being nice and just start being an asshole. I believe "ruthless" or "shrewd" is the proper business term.

Either that or join the military, apparently. They're always hiring.

It's not about being nice vs being an asshole. It's about having a clear direction and not letting anything stand in your way.


THIS
 
2010-08-22 11:19:27 AM  

ShillinTheVillain: unalivezombie: True, but it is getting harder to stay in the Air Force, possibly the safest/smartest branch to be in, which has been steadily cutting numbers. How do I know this? I joined the AF, and couldn't stay in past my 4 years because they were reducing my career field. One of the closest things the military has to a layoff.

Couldn't you retrain for another career field? Not that you'd necessarily want to, but I know in the Navy they're reducing some rates, but if you're good in your fitness and disciplinary records you can go to another A-school.


I was limited to only switching to critical career fields. This meant applying for several careers I didn't want while facing competition with other people for the same positions. So it was hard to switch (at least for my peers who were also getting out at the time) even with people with fairly good records.

In the end, my desire to stay in the military wasn't enough to go through the paperwork and hassle required to switch fields. It was a better option to just finish my CCAF, get out, and take advantage of the MGIB benefits.
 
2010-08-22 11:19:31 AM  

Girion47: would an E8 still get E8 pay if he has the tech knowledge of an E4?


It's not a matter of "would they". It's "they most certainly do". My senior chief couldn't fix half of the things on our helos because the tech changes faster than the schooling, and the fact that at E-8 they aren't doing operational level maintenance. Their job is to organize the overall maintenance plan, squadron reunion picnics and sneak out before 1500.
 
2010-08-22 11:22:01 AM  

dead_dangler: It's about having a clear direction and not letting anything stand in your way.


That's actually pretty much my problem. The direction for becoming a university professor is comparatively vague than it is for say, becoming a doctor or lawyer. Seems to be you get the MFA then maybe get the PhD in your field, then try to find a uni that doesn't suck and is hiring, and then you could go through tenure track and still not get tenured.

Whatever, I chose this career path, I'll suck it up and see it through. Someone's gotta do it. I actually agree with a lot of your points, I'm just sick of hearing about how I'm somehow 'wrong' for choosing this path. And if I am, hell, there's always an overseas market for English teachers.
 
2010-08-22 11:22:55 AM  
What gets me about this article is that they refer the point in your twenties as a "developmental period" meaning, everyone goes through it. There were some psychologists who seemed on the fence about it but overall there seems to be a consensus that this is a "developmental period".

I'm 24. I have a full-time job, a son, and I'm in grad school. I'm fully self-sustainable and independent. No spouse.

Do I sometimes take a look at my peers and feel like I'm missing out? Eh. Depends. I don't really feel the need to go through this "developmental period". I'm a well adjusted adult and I'm okay with my responsibilities. Should all my peers be like me? Not necessarily, but I do think some semblance of being independent would be good for everyone in their twenties.
 
2010-08-22 11:23:12 AM  
Several reasons, which are going to take a while to flush from the system:

1. Lack of real government support for post-secondary education to keep costs down.
2. Companies do not collaborate with the educational system to actually help them develop meaningful courses that would result in graduates they can actually use
3. Companies who would rather outsource to third-world sweatshops to provide immediate gratification to stockholders than actually TRAIN and invest in new employees
4. Farkin' greedy landlords are part of the problem, too.
 
2010-08-22 11:25:26 AM  
i43.photobucket.comView Full Size


/You saw this comming...
 
2010-08-22 11:26:22 AM  

Lux Lambert: dead_dangler: It's about having a clear direction and not letting anything stand in your way.

That's actually pretty much my problem. The direction for becoming a university professor is comparatively vague than it is for say, becoming a doctor or lawyer. Seems to be you get the MFA then maybe get the PhD in your field, then try to find a uni that doesn't suck and is hiring, and then you could go through tenure track and still not get tenured.

Whatever, I chose this career path, I'll suck it up and see it through. Someone's gotta do it. I actually agree with a lot of your points, I'm just sick of hearing about how I'm somehow 'wrong' for choosing this path. And if I am, hell, there's always an overseas market for English teachers.


No offense, but I don't think you're going to make it. You don't sound very passionate about it, and you've already got a mediocre plan 'B', as if you're already expecting to fail. You're waiting for things to happen. To succeed, you need to be making things happen.
 
2010-08-22 11:26:59 AM  

queenb4biatch: McVodkaBreath: so afraid to make a mistake no action is taken at all

THIS! OMG, so what if you fail? It's not like the entire world is going to come to a halt if you fail...get over it...learn from it, adapt, change and grow as a person...

This group doesn't KNOW how to fail or lose or get told you don't deserve the corner office for having a Masters but no experience, or that sometimes you job will include tasks you hate to do and no you don't get to pawn them off. Trophies and ribbons for everyone, let's not keep score...Fark that. Losing builds character, makes you want to work harder and learn so you won't lose again, and makes you hungry for a victory.


Agreed. Some of my best lessons and self realizations came after I tried to do something or made a difficult decisions one way or another.. and it didn't result in loli pops & ponies. Life lessons bring the most valuable knowledge, but are the hardest lessons to come by. The negative consequesences of life lessons also sting the most, so I assume that's why many 20-somethings prefer to stay in the womb, avoiding these decisions. This consistent reliance on mom and dad is why my generation needs such copious hand holding on the job that an earlier poster mentioned. It's sad when each employer I've had of a "real job" (and I've had three since college), has remarked on how I stood out from my peers because I am ambitious and competent, as opposed to lazy and self-entitled like many 20-somethings my former managers had the misfortune of employing
 
2010-08-22 11:30:49 AM  

ShillinTheVillain: Girion47: would an E8 still get E8 pay if he has the tech knowledge of an E4?

It's not a matter of "would they". It's "they most certainly do". My senior chief couldn't fix half of the things on our helos because the tech changes faster than the schooling, and the fact that at E-8 they aren't doing operational level maintenance. Their job is to organize the overall maintenance plan, squadron reunion picnics and sneak out before 1500.


my bro is an E-8, he's a corpsman so I guess the tech doesn't change that much, but I could totally see him sneaking out by 1500.
 
2010-08-22 11:31:38 AM  
The real world sucks. If I were in my early 20s again right now, I wouldn't want to grow up either.

That being said, I got over it and so will they.
 
2010-08-22 11:35:52 AM  
my take away from the article?

at 40, i'm still within someone's range of "young adulthood" !!!
woohoo!

oh, and i'm grateful my eldest is awesome, because i honestly don't want her to leave at this point (she's only 15, so i'm projecting)..

oh, and we moved into my in laws not once, but twice, after marriage, so i guess even in our 30s we were growth retarded.

oh, and like language sociology should be Descriptive, not Prescriptive. Because things are different now than they were 30 years ago doesn't make it worse or better necessarily. only different.
 
2010-08-22 11:35:54 AM  

dead_dangler:
No offense, but I don't think you're going to make it. You don't sound very passionate about it, and you've already got a mediocre plan 'B', as if you're already expecting to fail. You're waiting for things to happen. To succeed, you need to be making things happen.


None taken. You may yet be right. I've always had, as some other posters have pointed out, a nagging fear of failure that I really need to figure out how to excise. It's holding me back something fierce, and I'm trying to force myself to be less of a doormat anyway.

Re: passion, it's hard. Besides fiction-writing which is its own can of worms to be made fun of, all I can really say I'm truly passionate about is... birds... but birdkeeping doesn't really translate well to any particular jobs, except maybe being a vet or something. Who knows.

/i know you still don't care, but whatever, i admit you've got good points
 
2010-08-22 11:36:22 AM  
Despite all your efforts and plans for the future, most of the time you'll find it comes down to timing: Being in the right place at the right time.

I'm not saying planning doesn't work, or that you shouldn't map out your future, but few people end up doing/being what they planned.
 
2010-08-22 11:38:42 AM  

Lux Lambert: f, all I can really say I'm truly passionate about is... birds... but birdkeeping doesn't really translate well to any particular jobs, except maybe being a vet or something. Who knows.


There's probably someone in this world making 6 figures doing something related to birds. There's probably far more making a decent, livable income. It can be done; you just need to figure out how to do it.
 
2010-08-22 11:40:32 AM  
There are too many people, and not enough opportunities. Pretty simple, actually.
 
2010-08-22 11:40:33 AM  

GristleDick: I like bashing the youngsters as much as anybody, (Especially about their complete inability to create decent rock and roll), But things really have changed. When I fist moved out in 1976, I was able to support myself with a part-time minimum wage ($2.60 hr) job and a room mate. Now you have to make a decent salary to even think about moving out. It's HARDER. WAY the fark harder.


Yeah, plus the need for more schooling is dead on, and the cost of college now is farking INSANE.

But independently of this article, yesterday NPR was running a piece on mortgages, pointing out that more and more people are choosing to never buy real estate and instead rent, because in a lot of circumstances it makes more sense.

Those circumstances were that people in GENERAL move a hell of a lot more now, transferring jobs far more often and when they do, often having to uproot and move across the country. If you're never sure when your next move is, maybe it makes more sense to rent, no worries about selling the house. New York Times ran an article on "relos" (corporate middle managers who constantly move around) a while ago also.

Me, I own a house (long since paid off), and have a steady job that I'm not likely to have to leave (public sector, yes, the one place that IS still run under the "old system" somewhat). I'm 40 this year, maybe I was among the last to still have CHEAP in-state tuition and end up with no debt (though granted, I had a good job all through college due to the luck of being bilingual).

I think there's something to the "possibilities" of 20-somethings though, even if you ARE in a career already. It's about being able to change that if for some reason you decided to. Get into middle age, and it's harder to just completely change direction, and the idea that "well, I could be anything I want, eventually" is less and less true.
 
2010-08-22 11:46:15 AM  
I don't think it's all one way or another. It's not just about whether or not people in the 20s are immature or just have to live in a crappy job market. To me it seems like a combination of both of those things.
Being raised like a snowflake + being in a bad job market on top of inflation = exactly what you have now. People are a product of their environment.
 
2010-08-22 11:50:33 AM  
I had to work more than 40 hours per week to get by in the early 90s. I did that ciphering some people here are doing and it told me I need to spend less, earn a higher wage, or work more hours. If you can't work 50+ hours in your early 20s (hours per week...not 50 hours in your entire 20s), well...you suck.
 
2010-08-22 11:50:45 AM  
I'd like to whine, too. I'm old and I haven't been working steadily for a long time. I lost my husband and now I need to get a job to support myself and my youngest child (she's only 12) who is developmentally delayed and epileptic. I spent a lot of time working in communications engineering so I'm trying to teach myself the new-fangled networking. And I'll be doing this in Michigan so my sister can help take care of my daughter. Wish me luck.

/wish I had the energy of a 20 year-old.

/if anyone knows of a good cisco simulator, please advise
 
2010-08-22 11:54:04 AM  
To be fair, the lengthened period of childhood and adolescence has been considered by many to be an opportunity to grow and keep mental flexibility longer. From a societal point of view, we don't have an actual age for "adulthood" in most of the culture, and there is no real ceremony to show folks that they've grown the fark up. And it doesn't help that an aging populace doesn't recognize that folks in their 30s have done so, and call folks in their 40s "young" in an effort to make themselves younger by comparison, so folks in their 20s are frippin' doomed to be considered adults by patronizing elders.

In short, maybe we should stop calling them kids, and let them take up real responsibility, as opposed to letting folks skate on a sliding scale of maturity. Treat folks like adults, and folks tend to strive to live up to those expectations. Treat them like kids, and they strive to live up to those expectations too. You can't do BOTH and then complain that they aren't doing what you hoped, while not giving actual guidelines and real goals and expectations.

I tend to treat folks who hit 18 like they grown people. Responsible for their own shiat, and call them on it. Hold them responsible, and they are more than capable of it. Not precious snowflakes, but real people, actual and entire. Treat them with the respect and with actual expectations that they're adults, and move the fark on.

I was involved in a court case on a jury earlier this year. Young man came to Arizona for drug rehab, and checked himself out of a voluntary program, rented a car, drove himself past Flagstaff in December, and got out of his car, and wound up freezing to death. Nekkid.

No drugs in his system. Dead at 25.

In the course of the case, we got a good picture of the young man. Coddled, kept from real responsibility, and treated as a kid, despite his age. He wasn't responsible for his actions, at least in his folks' mind. They sued the hospital for NOT committing him, despite no indications, no suicidal warnings, no real reason. The parents wanted the hospital to treat their 25 year old son as if he was a minor, and HOLD him until they could collect him. For a marijuana and gambling addictions.

While I felt for the kid--freezing to death because you're frickin' too retarded to find your damn car after wandering around looking for the road to Vegas sucks--but I felt bad for the family too. For the first time in his life, this kid had some degree of autonomy, at 25 he finally had some control over his actions, and he exercised it poorly. And while he was technically responsible for his actions by being of the age of majority, he was ill prepared for it. Never given the opportunity to be responsible, and when finally given that responsibility, he ran from it.

I don't want to see more kids like this. Damaged by folks with good intentions, but at some point we have to teach folks to handle their own shiat. Lives that are too easy can damage folks and disable folks as much, if not worse, than folks who lead a damn hard existence. The folks who struggle at least know how to stand up to it, as opposed to getting plowed under when they're finally exposed to the real world.

Not all our young folks are being coddled to the point of damage, but it would be nice if folks began treating folks with the dignity and respect that they themselves expect, and stop looking for excuses to shield themselves from the deep dark truthful mirror that they themselves are grown the fark up a long time ago, and holding folks down doesn't make you any younger...
 
2010-08-22 11:55:46 AM  
As a 20-something who has the attention span to read the whole article unlike some of the bootstrappy farkers here, I would like to comment on the actual content of the article instead of getting into a generational shiatfest.

I think that our cultural definition of adulthood is changing and it is sociologists that need to update that definition. I consider myself an adult, but I have not passed the last of the five "milestones" cited as being needed to achieve adulthood. My "family plan" is to not have children, but to adopt around age 35 or maybe closer to 40, depending on my career. I have considered this plan very carefully and my husband and I are in agreement on this plan, but this, what I would consider, responsible outlook bars me from being considered an adult by sociologists, then clearly their definition of adult is flawed.

The article did bring up a lot of valid reasons that 20-somethings don't pass these milestones by age 30, like the acceptance of sex outside of marriage, the acceptance of gay and lesbian lifestlyes (who as a group are largely are unable to marry and in some cases, unable to adopt to have families), and the availability of birth control (which leads to more controlled family planning). I think being financially independent is the strongest adult milestone, but passing into adulthood is a lot more nuanced than just that plus marriage and kids.

Our society has been putting a premium on continued education and you see people going back to school even after they are well-established in a career. Personally, I hope I never "finish school" and that I always have a drive to go back and learn something. (I start a new job at the local university on Thursday and one of the benefits is 75% off tuition or I can audit classes for free!)

In this article, while it focuses on 20-somethings of now, the main researcher it refers to did his studies of 20-somethings in the 1990s (the Gen-X crowd). The article is about the 20-something age range and whether or not we need to recognize a new stage of development occurring for some in the 18-25 range the same way we recognized adolescence as occurring for the 12-18 age range.

I'm going to leave this quote from TFA here though:

It's reassuring, actually, to think of it as recursive, to imagine that there must always be a cohort of 20-somethings who take their time settling down, just as there must always be a cohort of 50-somethings who worry about it.
 
2010-08-22 11:55:54 AM  

Desmo: Despite all your efforts and plans for the future, most of the time you'll find it comes down to timing: Being in the right place at the right time.

I'm not saying planning doesn't work, or that you shouldn't map out your future, but few people end up doing/being what they planned.


Also this too. It's certainly true in my case. I enjoy where I ended up, but I'm certainly not using my degree, I use skills that honestly I developed on the job, and that first job was right out of high school - I was lucky enough to have a desirable skill just due to my life experiences to that point, and I was lucky enough to be friends with someone who told me about the job and gave me a recommendation, and lucky enough that the place hired on the basis of an exam.

Plenty of my friends similarly have good jobs now because they were the right age at the right time to have an entry-level gig with a firm right as the firm was training EVERYONE on new technology. Kids today are expected to know all that stuff on their own or go to school for it before getting any jobs. Etc.

And all the whining about how humanities degrees are worthless? Tons of them end up as sysadmins...
 
2010-08-22 12:00:05 PM  
Our education system conditions children to be unimaginative and passive. Where once kids were allowed to take responsibility at a young age, now their childhood is extended into their 20s and beyond.

The Underground History of American Education (new window)
 
2010-08-22 12:00:48 PM  

hubiestubert: From a societal point of view, we don't have an actual age for "adulthood" in most of the culture, and there is no real ceremony to show folks that they've grown the fark up.


I think traditionally it was popping out a kid, though more and more people are willingly childless these days so it screws with things.

Still though, having a kid is pretty much the trump card, you can be 17 and if you have a kid, you've "arrived" in a certain sense. You're someone's parent, ergo, you're an adult.

Barring that, there's financial independence (or having been independent at least once).

Then eventually you just get to an age where people can't call you a child with a straight face, even if you're completely failed on all the "milestones" you've transitioned from "child/won't grow up" to "odd adult with issues, that weird guy who just never joined the world, somehow."

I can definitely see the NYT article as agreeing with that point now being 30ish. Even if you've never "made it," say you're 30 and no one will say your issues are due to immaturity, anymore.

/which might be worse
//but it's different
 
2010-08-22 12:10:45 PM  

itazurakko: hubiestubert: From a societal point of view, we don't have an actual age for "adulthood" in most of the culture, and there is no real ceremony to show folks that they've grown the fark up.

I think traditionally it was popping out a kid, though more and more people are willingly childless these days so it screws with things.


This is probably a good place for this quote from the TFA:

Sociologists traditionally define the "transition to adulthood" as marked by five milestones: completing school, leaving home, becoming financially independent, marrying and having a child.

I think being an adult is a lot more nuanced than that. While I consider myself an adult, as a 20-something, I definitely see myself as a "young adult" with still a lot of opportunities ahead of me and I still have a lot of lofty goals and dreams. I am working on the part of weaving my choices and immediate opportunities into the completion of those goals and the attainment of those dreams.
 
2010-08-22 12:12:02 PM  
It seems to me like older generations are a little bit jealous that youth today aren't falling into the same traps they fell into when they turned 20...
 
2010-08-22 12:13:07 PM  
Been in between for a few years now...

Good job, but company is very susceptible to economic conditions, meaning any downturn increases chances of layoffs.

Not to mention until the housing market actually bottoms out, not much I can afford anyway.

/Saving every penny
//Hopefully economics will work in the long term.
 
2010-08-22 12:13:22 PM  
itazurakko--I am getting tired of the sliding scale. I'm in my 40s, and I still get folks who try to use the "you're still young" routine to try to justify being patronizing pricks. The training wheels came off a while ago, and even being a parent doesn't stop them, because you get the, "you won't understand until they leave the nest" routine.

Seriously. In my 40s, a chef, and there are folks who try to use the "young chef" routine. Run a dozen kitchens, profitably, and I'd like, at some point, to lose the patronizing asshats.
 
2010-08-22 12:16:16 PM  
Everyone's an Indigo Kid.

/b-b-b-but Boomers!
 
2010-08-22 12:18:57 PM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: There are too many people, and not enough opportunities. Pretty simple, actually.


True, but the only thing people think of as "opportunities" are jobs working for someone else (corporations, university, government, etc.) Entrepreneurship, which made this country great, has been made increasingly difficult to attempt. Gone are the days where one could simply "hang out a shingle". The costs of starting a new business are so high that failure makes it nearly impossible to "dust yourself off" and try something else.
 
2010-08-22 12:20:19 PM  
Old lady of 47 here.

The 20s were all about farking up and making bad choices. No sane person would be willing to return to those years. We learned from our farkups and got on with life.

That being said, I think we had a higher hardship tolerance. I was in my mid-30s before I approached of standard of living of my parents. Now I'm right about at their level. I had no expectations of leaving the well-feathered nest and living in the manner to which I had been accustomed. It was studio apartments and ramen for a long time. The well-feathered nest was created by my parents from decades of work.

I know things are harder now economically but in my day we had roommates- once lived with 5 people in a 2 bedroom loft. Do the snowflakes of today not have friends? I really don't get this one. If you are earning $9 an hour, get together with 3 friends doing the same- you then have a household income around 70K a year.

Of course, they are still maturing and changing in their 20s. We mature and change until we die. I'd be willing to bet that what a lot of these failure to launch kids have in common is affluence. When you don't have it so cushy, you have to launch.
 
2010-08-22 12:21:54 PM  
Oh gods this shiat. I'm just under 30, with my JD (brand new) and am still looking for my first real job in a shiat economy. It is real hard to pass those life milestones when no one wants to hire someone who doesn't have "experience" but in this economy I can't blame them. There's more attorneys than jobs and far more experienced people than me are out of work and more desperate than I am.

But what is the American elder generation's obsession of having to meet milestones? I'm poor, in debt (all educational), and living in a small apartment. But I'm happy, working a job that doesn't provide enough hours to move up, job hunting and living with my honey (whom I cannot legally marry) in a small affordable apartment. Getting a house would be fiscally irresponsible, as would having a kid (not to mention the expenses of adopting). Granted this would change the second some firm wants to take a chance on some newbie with only two years of working experience like me.

I admit that I've kinda fallen into the trap that being out on my own equals success. Moving back in with my parents would be the fiscally prudent thing to do, but at this point I'd rather wait tables to supplement my income from my law job than do that.
 
2010-08-22 12:30:52 PM  
Stupid-assed parents allow their kids to move back in. My 12 and 9 year old have been told since early on that they are expected to be gone after 18 and college.

- They can take relatively menial jobs if necessary, like I did.

- They can experience this odd thing called "ROOMMATES", which seems to be an odd thought these days.

It is not an option for my kids to not grow up and to move back in. If parents make that a policy, then it isn't going to happen.

/stupid modern parents
 
2010-08-22 12:32:09 PM  

Steam Powered Cat: Oh gods this shiat. I'm just under 30, with my JD (brand new) and am still looking for my first real job in a shiat economy. It is real hard to pass those life milestones when no one wants to hire someone who doesn't have "experience" but in this economy I can't blame them. There's more attorneys than jobs and far more experienced people than me are out of work and more desperate than I am.

But what is the American elder generation's obsession of having to meet milestones? I'm poor, in debt (all educational), and living in a small apartment. But I'm happy, working a job that doesn't provide enough hours to move up, job hunting and living with my honey (whom I cannot legally marry) in a small affordable apartment. Getting a house would be fiscally irresponsible, as would having a kid (not to mention the expenses of adopting). Granted this would change the second some firm wants to take a chance on some newbie with only two years of working experience like me.

I admit that I've kinda fallen into the trap that being out on my own equals success. Moving back in with my parents would be the fiscally prudent thing to do, but at this point I'd rather wait tables to supplement my income from my law job than do that.


Good God, don't go back in with the parents. When our family relocated cross country, my parents offered to have me and the kids stay with them while the DH finished selling our house and packing. I thought it would be a great time- kiddies getting to know their grandparents better etc.

Parents don't stop being parents. It was like being chopped off at the knees. You are back in the kid role. I can't understand how the kids in TFA would want to be back in with the parents. "Where are you going?" and "When will you be back?" are really reasonable things to ask but they feel like nails on a chalkboard after you have been out on your own.

Hear the tips at Olive Garden are good.
 
2010-08-22 12:33:40 PM  

GristleDick: I like bashing the youngsters as much as anybody, (Especially about their complete inability to create decent rock and roll), But things really have changed. When I fist moved out in 1976, I was able to support myself with a part-time minimum wage ($2.60 hr) job and a room mate. Now you have to make a decent salary to even think about moving out. It's HARDER. WAY the fark harder.


This. It's not like it used to be. My father supported a family of five with one good-paying job, and no college degree. My mother never worked, and we were middle class. Try doing that now.

Gramma: I'd like to whine, too. I'm old and I haven't been working steadily for a long time. I lost my husband and now I need to get a job to support myself and my youngest child (she's only 12) who is developmentally delayed and epileptic. I spent a lot of time working in communications engineering so I'm trying to teach myself the new-fangled networking. And I'll be doing this in Michigan so my sister can help take care of my daughter. Wish me luck.
/wish I had the energy of a 20 year-old.
/if anyone knows of a good cisco simulator, please advise


Good luck, Gramma. that sucks, losing a husband and having a kid to support. Even my baby is 17 now.

/49 and have never had a full-time career. Milestones, my ass.
 
2010-08-22 12:36:42 PM  
I read articles like this all the time, but I don't know who these people are that they always talk about.

I'm 27, did have to move back home briefly after college, but I was scheming how I could get out as soon as I got there and didn't stick around more than six months. Even though my parents would have been glad to let me stay, support me financially, etc. Even though this meant taking a string of crap jobs. I graduated at 21 and didn't have a job that used my degree until 25. Oh well. I've always felt this was inappropriate and wanted to be independent of them once I was capable.

Here's the thing: none of my friends or acquaintances, who come from a wide variety of backgrounds, were any different. Yeah, a few of them lived at home for a while, but they either got out ASAP or they were working full-time and it was for a specific reason like to save for a down payment on a house.

I can't think of ANYONE I know that just doesn't want to work, or doesn't have the inclination to live independently. The way cranky Gen-Xers and Boomers talk about this, you'd think that half of my friends were jobless and living at home. In truth, most of them would rather and do take crap jobs just to maintain their independence.

My wife is the same age and from a different part of the country, her circle is exactly the same. This is also true of the people my brother (a couple years older) and her brother (a couple years younger) know.

These stories about "Gen Y" are just more overblown media trend story crap and honestly have very little to do with real people, in my experience.

There is no doubt in my mind that the majority of people who hasn't progressed into "adulthood," whatever the hell that even means, by their 20s these days would like very much to do so and are working their asses off to try and make that happen. Sure there are some slackers or people who haven't found their way, but lord knows that was true for Gen X and the Boomers too.
 
2010-08-22 12:38:58 PM  

Girion47: I made 48K the first year I got a real corporate job. after that, 50K, the year after 55K. More then enough to afford a new car and a nice apartment. Since I actually know what I'm doing, I'm always in demand, and never have worries about job security, and have a pile of fantastic recommendations from both the corporate and private sectors.

Oh yeah. I never went to college either. Go back to making slurpees like your degree qualifies you for.


Don't you have to be at the gym in 26 minutes?
 
2010-08-22 12:39:40 PM  

jbrooks544: Stupid-assed parents allow their kids to move back in. My 12 and 9 year old have been told since early on that they are expected to be gone after 18 and college.

- They can take relatively menial jobs if necessary, like I did.

- They can experience this odd thing called "ROOMMATES", which seems to be an odd thought these days.

It is not an option for my kids to not grow up and to move back in. If parents make that a policy, then it isn't going to happen.

/stupid modern parents


please please please please remember that attitude when, in 20 or 30 years, you're shocked and horrified to be stuck in public nursing care and the kids don't come to visit.
 
2010-08-22 12:41:01 PM  
Age discrimination is running rampant among the boomers of late, both giving and receiving. I've been watching it for the better part of 5 years now. This phenomenon is not isolated to GenMe either.

For us 20 somethings, we've been stereotyped as badly as the "fried chicken and grape drink blacks" and the "perpetually drunk swearing Irish" as the "entitled snowflake, self absorbed, useless brats of the universe". I've been flat told by boomers that "I can't find anyone to mow my lawn anymore. They want to do nothing but sit on their ass and play video games." When pressed, it was because he only wanted to pay the guy 5 bucks to mow for about an hour and provide his own gas/equipment. Yeah, that's some laziness we're showing there.

This is just one of dozens of examples I can pull from personal experience. There is no way I'm isolated in observing this occurrence all over the country.

It's also going on to the Boomers themselves. BoomerA doesn't want to hire BoomerB because BoomerB is too old and they expect more pay, nearly the same as what BoomerA is making, and that doesn't cut it for the stock holders, BoomerC, who treats EVERYONE as though they are bugs under the heels of their boots. So now they're infighting and collectively turning and calling GenMe brats and entitled just to make themselves feel better.

It's a new class warfare that's escalating, only this time it's generational. I doubt the mistakes made by my collective parents will be solved any time sooner than my great grand children. Because frankly, I don't think GenME has the tools to fix it.
 
2010-08-22 12:43:00 PM  

hubiestubert: itazurakko--I am getting tired of the sliding scale. I'm in my 40s, and I still get folks who try to use the "you're still young" routine to try to justify being patronizing pricks. The training wheels came off a while ago, and even being a parent doesn't stop them, because you get the, "you won't understand until they leave the nest" routine.

Seriously. In my 40s, a chef, and there are folks who try to use the "young chef" routine. Run a dozen kitchens, profitably, and I'd like, at some point, to lose the patronizing asshats.


At 40? Damn. Yeah they need a cup of STFU. I suppose if everyone is older, than the fact of being on the young end is one thing, but to use that to be patronizing would be annoying.

I'm 40 this year, but was having the discussion about "turning 30, ZOMG" with someone recently and so reflecting on it, and it struck me that there was a change, at least for me, in the reactions to "I'm 30" or "I'm in my 30s" vs. still being in my 20s. People I work with run from around 25 to 60ish.

Granted, I live in a university town which probably colors things a LOT - if you can pass as the "average" looking student, vs. once you've got enough grey hairs or whatever it is to not pass anymore. There are a lot of people in their 20s (even late 20s) in graduate school, and at least in a university town, that reads as "transient child" still, to a lot of people. If they have kids though, it's different. (But yeah, a lot of it is local "town vs. gown" crap that regular places wouldn't have.)
 
2010-08-22 12:44:05 PM  
Worked shiatty jobs late in high school, throughout college, and a couple years after college with almost no break until the past year. Actually saved most of my money and didn't blow it all on beer and other shiny things. I'm trying to be responsible again to find another shiatty job and move out, stay out of trouble with the law, and not get any women knocked up. I'm just a statistical number in life; what more does society expect from me? lol

/no hate like generation-hate
 
2010-08-22 12:45:00 PM  

Lux Lambert: dead_dangler:
Well for one, getting a better job.

This neck of the woods (Appalachia) has got NOTHING that's worth jumping into for only a year. Yeah, I'm sucking it up and living with my parents, but where's the harm if they're willing to put me up? My sister's a freakin' psychiatrist engaged to a psychiatrist, so I'm the only dependent left.

Plus, I know I'm going to get flack for this, I got a BA in Writing, instead of something manlier or worthier than hard sciences or, hell, nursing. So there ain't much entry-level my sorry ass can do in the Mid-Ohio Valley. Hell, there ain't much for anybody. The local paper just ran a story a few days ago where the headline was just "Where are the jobs?" which probably puts some things in perspective.

Though admittedly, I did get coerced into taking a chemistry class at the local college now because my mother's still convinced that I'm going to suddenly want to be a doctor in three years. Gotta love Asian parents...


That's why I had roommates until I was almost 30. I didn't live with my parents. I lived with other young adults. I am not faulting anyone who wants to save a little money, but there have been liberal arts majors for a long time. They have never been able to get high-paying jobs right out of college. But, if you work hard, you get promoted - often ahead of business majors.
 
2010-08-22 12:49:49 PM  

DeaH: That's why I had roommates until I was almost 30.


Yeah, I had roommates for a long time myself. Rent an apartment with three people, take the smallest bedroom, rent is cheap. When people moved out for various reasons, those of us staying put an ad in the paper for new roommates and interviewed 'em. We always had takers.

I had good friends from my roommates always. The living room was an actual common living room, we'd hang out in there together.
 
2010-08-22 12:51:18 PM  

dead_dangler: GristleDick: I like bashing the youngsters as much as anybody, (Especially about their complete inability to create decent rock and roll), But things really have changed. When I fist moved out in 1976, I was able to support myself with a part-time minimum wage ($2.60 hr) job and a room mate. Now you have to make a decent salary to even think about moving out. It's HARDER. WAY the fark harder.

No shiat. Back then, all you had to pay for was rent and food. Nowadays you've got to pay for high-speed internet, unlimited data plans for your cell phone, x-box live accounts, and a whole host of other expenses.


Most of those expenses are completely unnecessary.
In the late 70's I had a job, a used (and paid for) car and a roommate. Life was good.
 
2010-08-22 12:52:09 PM  
My answer? Lack of jobs. As a IT veteran of seven years, wages haven't stagnated, they have dropped. Positions that would have paid a good 50k a few years ago now are being dropped to $7-9 an hour. I interviewed for quite a few jobs in the last two months. The best one was in the middle of nowhere, 40k+ a year, that I didn't get...because I wasn't a programmer on top of being an IT tech, on top of being a web designer. With seven years of experience in EACH.

It's an employer's market and they are greedy as hell. Their motto is 'milk it for everything that it's worth' and they have no shame in telling you that you should be grateful just to be working instead of making a livable wage. So now I'm changing my career, focusing on finishing my Masters, and making the change to my second career. I could make more being an English teacher than I could in technology. That should say it all right there.

itsfullofstars: My company has had an entry level Computer Science position open for months. We can get anyone remotely qualified to interview for it. The only interest has been from kids with bachelors in business, accounting, or "Computer Information Systems" with little more than remedial computer skills. I'd love to find a young military vet with some basic computer skills and build them into a good software designer but cant even find that.

Any of the former interns or other contacts we've gone to are either taking time off to backpack Europe or are off to grad school for reasons they cant explain. The lack of interest in working seems to be a 20-something phenomenon as well.


If you're serious, throw me a line. My email is in my profile and I'm willing to apply and move if you're training. No kidding.

Oh, and they're probably doing grad school/wandering off because America really doesn't seem worth it. We're talking about kids who were raised by dual income families and see first-hand what that type of working environment does to the family. So yeah, I can see the reasoning behind it. It's not a matter of growing up, it's a matter of seeing how stressful and damaging it could be.

Anyway, throw me a line. I wouldn't mind changing to software designing if you're training.
 
2010-08-22 12:54:54 PM  

logophile: jbrooks544: Stupid-assed parents allow their kids to move back in. My 12 and 9 year old have been told since early on that they are expected to be gone after 18 and college.

- They can take relatively menial jobs if necessary, like I did.

- They can experience this odd thing called "ROOMMATES", which seems to be an odd thought these days.

It is not an option for my kids to not grow up and to move back in. If parents make that a policy, then it isn't going to happen.

/stupid modern parents

please please please please remember that attitude when, in 20 or 30 years, you're shocked and horrified to be stuck in public nursing care and the kids don't come to visit.


Yeah... Ok...?

No, what you say is kooky. It is really quit simple - If your kid suggests he live in your house after college, you say "no". My parents did this and I'm not bitter. I had roommates for a couple years.

It is called "being an adult".
 
2010-08-22 1:05:02 PM  

ajgeek: Age discrimination is running rampant among the boomers of late, both giving and receiving. I've been watching it for the better part of 5 years now. This phenomenon is not isolated to GenMe either.

For us 20 somethings, we've been stereotyped as badly as the "fried chicken and grape drink blacks" and the "perpetually drunk swearing Irish" as the "entitled snowflake, self absorbed, useless brats of the universe". I've been flat told by boomers that "I can't find anyone to mow my lawn anymore. They want to do nothing but sit on their ass and play video games." When pressed, it was because he only wanted to pay the guy 5 bucks to mow for about an hour and provide his own gas/equipment. Yeah, that's some laziness we're showing there.

This is just one of dozens of examples I can pull from personal experience. There is no way I'm isolated in observing this occurrence all over the country.

It's also going on to the Boomers themselves. BoomerA doesn't want to hire BoomerB because BoomerB is too old and they expect more pay, nearly the same as what BoomerA is making, and that doesn't cut it for the stock holders, BoomerC, who treats EVERYONE as though they are bugs under the heels of their boots. So now they're infighting and collectively turning and calling GenMe brats and entitled just to make themselves feel better.

It's a new class warfare that's escalating, only this time it's generational. I doubt the mistakes made by my collective parents will be solved any time sooner than my great grand children. Because frankly, I don't think GenME has the tools to fix it.


I don't think anybody has the tools to fix it. We got here out of luck: most of Europe being destroyed in World War II meant America had a leg up on everybody else. And we didn't really expand on it.

But I hear what you're saying. I'd add that most of the Boomers are also adjusting to age badly as well and becoming bitter. The Boomers were always seen as the force of youth, even when they turned weird in the '80s. Now that they're the older generation, they're losing their minds. The generation that had Woodstock and claimed to be the moving force behind the big changes we saw in the '60s is now pulling the same shiat as accused their parents of doing. This isn't accidental: they wanted to be youthful forever and are clawing their way into infinity with everybody else and they can't handle it. Their parents at least aged gracefully. The Baby Boomers are the generational equivalent of the guy in the toupee who makes everybody want to believe it's real.

I would say it's the typical greediness that we saw in the '80s until you see how farking bitter they are about everything. It's hard to understand how the generation that changed everything, who was accused of being childish, also throws that insult onto others. It's very depressing until you realize that maybe Generation X and the Millennials are growing out of that to some extent, and it's not a generational gap, but a flaw with the American System of Success As Excess that is creating a system of entitled bitterness. When more is never enough, you get a system of constant underdogs foaming at the mouth for more and more and pushing other dogs out of the bowl to get it.

But I digress. The Baby Boomers have shown that they aren't as special as they thought. They fall back to the same routines. It's a shame, but I guess everything ends. So it goes.
 
2010-08-22 1:25:24 PM  
One thing I would suggest for people about to go to school as young adults is this: Dont major in dingbat shiat ! If you have a huge trust fund waiting for you then please get a degree in Womens studies or art history or theatre. If you would like to one day repay student loans and have a real job get a degree in computer science, civil engineering, accounting etc.

I have a cousin who has a zillion dollar private university degree in English, yes she works in a library making squat dollars. She can kick a$$ playing Jeopardy from her couch and she can quote shakespeare but she cant afford a decent car.
 
2010-08-22 1:30:33 PM  

MrStarbuck: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: There are too many people, and not enough opportunities. Pretty simple, actually.

True, but the only thing people think of as "opportunities" are jobs working for someone else (corporations, university, government, etc.) Entrepreneurship, which made this country great, has been made increasingly difficult to attempt. Gone are the days where one could simply "hang out a shingle". The costs of starting a new business are so high that failure makes it nearly impossible to "dust yourself off" and try something else.



I can't help but think there is a level of bullshiat here. Some businesses are harder to start out than they used to be due to costs, but because of the internet, modern technology, easier access to knowledge about anything, there are many opportunities for entrepreneurs to start businesses out of their homes than there used to be.
 
2010-08-22 1:37:15 PM  

whistleridge: 1. They almost all have degrees, meaning their degrees are fairly worthless. Especially since there are basically only three types of jobs left: tech, medical and service. The folks that used to work skilled trades, manufacturing, heavy industry and other "non-college degree" jobs are now getting degrees because those jobs are gone.


Not all those jobs are gone, despite the best efforts of unions to kill off manufacturing and heavy industry. However, "skilled trade" jobs are now worked by illegal aliens because of a conscious decision by the federal government not to enforce immigration laws.
 
2010-08-22 1:48:01 PM  

LawrencePerson: Not all those jobs are gone, despite the best efforts of unions to kill off manufacturing and heavy industry. However, "skilled trade" jobs are now worked by illegal aliens because of a conscious decision by the federal government not to enforce immigration laws.


8/10
 
2010-08-22 2:11:12 PM  

Lux Lambert: None taken. You may yet be right. I've always had, as some other posters have pointed out, a nagging fear of failure that I really need to figure out how to excise. It's holding me back something fierce, and I'm trying to force myself to be less of a doormat anyway.

Re: passion, it's hard. Besides fiction-writing which is its own can of worms to be made fun of, all I can really say I'm truly passionate about is... birds... but birdkeeping doesn't really translate well to any particular jobs, except maybe being a vet or something. Who knows.

/i know you still don't care, but whatever, i admit you've got good points


Do yourself a favor and stay the hell away from the bullshiat academic rat race. I'm in science where the opportunities are 10x better than the humanities, but they STILL SUCK. It's a ponzi scheme and your reward at the end as a full professor is making 2/3 of the money as in the commercial world and you still put in more hours, because most of your grant proposals still will be rejected.

Guess what? You can 'teach' in any industry job. Aside from official 'training' type jobs, basically anyone has the opportunity to train and eventually manage subordinates. This can be very challenging and gratifying. I still consult at universities sometimes, and frankly I find the self-absorption of most of the professors pretty pathetic and laughable. They often have no clue of the world out there, and they engage in huge amounts of intellectual masturbation*.

And you will find your passions returning when you get away from the passion vacuum that is the academic world.

*as opposed to the good kind of masturbation
 
2010-08-22 2:12:11 PM  

itsfullofstars: My company has had an entry level Computer Science position open for months. We can get anyone remotely qualified to interview for it. The only interest has been from kids with bachelors in business, accounting, or "Computer Information Systems" with little more than remedial computer skills. I'd love to find a young military vet with some basic computer skills and build them into a good software designer but cant even find that.


I am sorry, but I simply do not believe your story. You say you are in Raleigh and - I might be naive - but to sit there and say that in all of Raleigh there is NOT ONE qualified computer science candidate to fill an entry software developer role is too far-fetched. NOT ONE college senior...in all of N. Carolina...to fulfill that role. I do not believe it. (And why a military vet? You sound picky as all-hell; I wouldn't want to work w/ you, either.)

You're either making it all up, overstating it to the point of lying, paying minimum wage or demanding too much. Please respond as I'd like to hear your side of it.
 
2010-08-22 2:12:31 PM  

jbrooks544: logophile: jbrooks544: Stupid-assed parents allow their kids to move back in. My 12 and 9 year old have been told since early on that they are expected to be gone after 18 and college.

- They can take relatively menial jobs if necessary, like I did.

- They can experience this odd thing called "ROOMMATES", which seems to be an odd thought these days.

It is not an option for my kids to not grow up and to move back in. If parents make that a policy, then it isn't going to happen.

/stupid modern parents

please please please please remember that attitude when, in 20 or 30 years, you're shocked and horrified to be stuck in public nursing care and the kids don't come to visit.

Yeah... Ok...?

No, what you say is kooky. It is really quit simple - If your kid suggests he live in your house after college, you say "no". My parents did this and I'm not bitter. I had roommates for a couple years.

It is called "being an adult".


I sincerely hope you change your mind in 10 years. Even if your children do get jobs right after college, I guarantee that removing the safety net of home and family will add negative stress to you and your children, make them less likely to move out of a bad career, and make them more willing to move far away from you.
 
2010-08-22 2:23:44 PM  
Hell, I'm in my early 40s and I feel like that now. Yeah, I've made mistakes--mostly of the relationship kind--and my life fell apart around me in the early 90's.

Then in '08 it fell apart around me again. Let me just say about the divorce before people harp, that if your sister had been married to my ex, you would have been very upset if she didn't divorce him. That's not whining. My bad relationship choice(s).

Yeah, I got a degree in psychology. Which wasn't useful at first, but which has been very useful to me in writing commercial fiction. It's not paying enough to live (securely) on. I have roomies, I'm paying my bills, I haven't had to lean on my parents for help yet--and am treading water frantically and constantly afraid that that may change.

I've tried various options to improve my situation, but haven't hit one that panned out yet, so I'm still in the mode of trying the next most likely option.

As I said, this happened before in the early 90's. There was a recession then, too. I skated on the edge of the financial cliff for three years, terrified I was in an unrecoverable abyss. All I can say is that I kept trying the next most likely thing until I hit something that worked. (Was an Oracle database programmer for six years. Skills are way out of date, etc.)

Well, it's happened again. What I learned after I graduated in 1990 and felt like the world had ended and I'd blown all my chances forever and life was doom and gloom--I didn't quit. I didn't quit, and eventually something went right and I was finally able to dig myself back out of the mud.

It's a necessary corollary to Murphy's Law: Eventually, something, somewhere will go right.

Since you can't know what that will be, you just have to keep fighting and try to be as well-positioned as you can to catch the right wave.
 
2010-08-22 2:38:01 PM  
For some clarity, here's an anthem of this younger generation:

"Me and all my friends
We're all misunderstood
They say we stand for nothing and
There's no way we ever could

Now we see everything that's going wrong
With the world and those who lead it
We just feel like we don't have the means
To rise above and beat it

So we keep waiting
Waiting on the world to change

It's hard to beat the system
When we're standing at a distance
So we keep waiting
Waiting on the world to change

It's not that we don't care,
We just know that the fight ain't fair
So we keep on waiting
Waiting on the world to change

And we're still waiting
Waiting on the world to change
We keep on waiting waiting on the world to change
One day our generation
Is gonna rule the population
So we keep on waiting
Waiting on the world to change "

Lazy asses. Wait all you want, just don't do it on my lawn. I worked hard to make it look that good - without any help from you.
 
2010-08-22 2:44:50 PM  
Maybe because the days of a factory line worker making enough to buy a house, two cars, go on vacations, and still have savings is long dead.
 
2010-08-22 2:48:39 PM  

deanayer: One thing I would suggest for people about to go to school as young adults is this: Dont major in dingbat shiat ! If you have a huge trust fund waiting for you then please get a degree in Womens studies or art history or theatre. If you would like to one day repay student loans and have a real job get a degree in computer science, civil engineering, accounting etc.

I have a cousin who has a zillion dollar private university degree in English, yes she works in a library making squat dollars. She can kick a$$ playing Jeopardy from her couch and she can quote shakespeare but she cant afford a decent car.


What is the dingbat shiat going to be in ten years? Ten years ago, computer engineering was a great degree. Now, programing is being off-shored at lots of companies. (True story: I worked for a company that now hires 10 programmers in the Philippines for less than the cost of two U.S. programmers. True, two US programmers got a lot more done, but that doesn't seem to be an issue. Accounting and payroll were off-shored to India.) We have a glut of lawyers, so that degree isn't likely to be worth the cost. Yes, a med degree is still worth something, but most doctors I know made the bulk of their cash in real estate or the market.

Personally, I don't think most specialized undergrad degrees are going to be worth much ten years after you get out of school. Invest in an undergrad degree that gives you a good grounding in math, science, history, writing, logic, and some of the social sciences. I think they used to call it an liberal arts degree. You can use the broad knowledge in a number of flexible ways in the real world, and you'll be be an asset because you can think. If you need specialized training, get a Masters - most work places are requiring them now anyway.

Frankly, it is a real pity that we've turned universities into trade schools. The problem with learning a trade is that you become obsolete as soon as the tech changes or they can offshore it for 20% of what they were paying you.
 
2010-08-22 2:58:33 PM  

btrflykate: What gets me about this article is that they refer the point in your twenties as a "developmental period" meaning, everyone goes through it. There were some psychologists who seemed on the fence about it but overall there seems to be a consensus that this is a "developmental period".

I'm 24. I have a full-time job, a son, and I'm in grad school. I'm fully self-sustainable and independent. No spouse.

Do I sometimes take a look at my peers and feel like I'm missing out? Eh. Depends. I don't really feel the need to go through this "developmental period". I'm a well adjusted adult and I'm okay with my responsibilities. Should all my peers be like me? Not necessarily, but I do think some semblance of being independent would be good for everyone in their twenties.


I'd be interested to know what access to opportunities you had available to you. It's seem rather rare that a 20-something single parent could be in grad school without some serious financial or career assistance.
 
2010-08-22 3:07:24 PM  
I'm tired of reading all this insightful information. Can someone please tell me their life story and why their choices and career make them better than everyone else?
 
2010-08-22 3:12:47 PM  
Parents need to let their kids grow up.

I moved out briefly in college (more like running away, I wasn't safe living with my stepdad), moved home after I got screwed over financially now that mom had divorced the prick.

Graduated college and worked a series of odd jobs (lots of working two jobs for a total of 50-60hrs a week at min. wage) until I found a full time, entry-level office position that enabled me to begin saving to move out. Finally, a year and a half after graduating college, I'd paid off my worst debts and saved up enough to put down first/last/deposit.

My mother was convinced I wouldn't survive and would have to move home again, and never missed a chance to tell my sister how foolish I was being by leaving a perfectly good living situation with cheap rent (200/month).

But dammit, I was 24 and sick of feeling like a child. And yeah, I stumbled a couple times...but I never moved back.

/29 next month
//I may not have designer clothing or a brand-new car like my sister, but dammit I have PRIDE.
///and very soon to be debt-free
 
2010-08-22 3:24:25 PM  

not_an_indigo: Parents need to let their kids grow up.


And our culture needs to lose its disgust for real work. All our cultural media contend that the hard working folks are either illegal or stupid. Instead, they're frequently just hard-working and capable.

It would be a good thing for people to lose their aspiration to be sports stars or actors or singers or famous just for being famous. Instead, the people that are famous should be famous for their contributions to America, not that they've been caught giving head in a hotel room by a videocamera.
 
2010-08-22 3:46:43 PM  

dmax: not_an_indigo: Parents need to let their kids grow up.

And our culture needs to lose its disgust for real work. All our cultural media contend that the hard working folks are either illegal or stupid. Instead, they're frequently just hard-working and capable.

It would be a good thing for people to lose their aspiration to be sports stars or actors or singers or famous just for being famous. Instead, the people that are famous should be famous for their contributions to America, not that they've been caught giving head in a hotel room by a videocamera.


well they get that stigma because all "hard work" is severely low paying. If you want someone out in the heat all day doing back breaking work and be satisfied with it, you need to pay them more, until then, it isn't a real job, its a place to earn enough to eat until you get something better.
 
2010-08-22 4:07:21 PM  
Kids. Why can't they be like we are. What's wrong with Danny Kaye?
 
2010-08-22 4:39:55 PM  

Bacontastesgood: Lux Lambert: None taken. You may yet be right. I've always had, as some other posters have pointed out, a nagging fear of failure that I really need to figure out how to excise. It's holding me back something fierce, and I'm trying to force myself to be less of a doormat anyway.

Re: passion, it's hard. Besides fiction-writing which is its own can of worms to be made fun of, all I can really say I'm truly passionate about is... birds... but birdkeeping doesn't really translate well to any particular jobs, except maybe being a vet or something. Who knows.

/i know you still don't care, but whatever, i admit you've got good points

Do yourself a favor and stay the hell away from the bullshiat academic rat race. I'm in science where the opportunities are 10x better than the humanities, but they STILL SUCK. It's a ponzi scheme and your reward at the end as a full professor is making 2/3 of the money as in the commercial world and you still put in more hours, because most of your grant proposals still will be rejected.

Guess what? You can 'teach' in any industry job. Aside from official 'training' type jobs, basically anyone has the opportunity to train and eventually manage subordinates. This can be very challenging and gratifying. I still consult at universities sometimes, and frankly I find the self-absorption of most of the professors pretty pathetic and laughable. They often have no clue of the world out there, and they engage in huge amounts of intellectual masturbation*.

And you will find your passions returning when you get away from the passion vacuum that is the academic world.

*as opposed to the good kind of masturbation


Unless you're really passionate about becoming a professor/academic, I'll have to second that. I spent the last year in a humanities program with the goal of eventually becoming a professor. Part of my assistantship was working an administrative position for my program. That opened my eyes to the insularity and straight-up air of self-importance among academics. I left the program because being around that made me realize that wasn't what I wanted.

/Beginning MS in GIS tomorrow
//20-something
///Learning from mistakes
 
2010-08-22 4:41:10 PM  
CAN'T GET A GOOD JOB WITHOUT EXPERIENCE.

CAN'T GET EXPERIENCE BECAUSE THE GOOD JOBS REQUIRE EXPERIENCE.

Say what?
Catch-22, fark being young and fark the world.
 
2010-08-22 4:55:15 PM  

TRIGONALMAYHEM: CAN'T GET A GOOD JOB WITHOUT EXPERIENCE.

CAN'T GET EXPERIENCE BECAUSE THE GOOD JOBS REQUIRE EXPERIENCE.

Say what?
Catch-22, fark being young and fark the world.


Or, you could do what I (and a lot of other people) did: don't expect a large salary just because you've got a degree, offer to work for peanuts in order to gain experience, work your ass off, get promoted, and then start making a decent salary after you've paid your dues.

/but 'dangler, I'm WORTH so much more. And that sounds HAAAAARD
 
2010-08-22 4:55:34 PM  

TRIGONALMAYHEM: CAN'T GET A GOOD JOB WITHOUT EXPERIENCE.

CAN'T GET EXPERIENCE BECAUSE THE GOOD JOBS REQUIRE EXPERIENCE.

Say what?
Catch-22, fark being young and fark the world.



Why do you think you deserve the good job? It is rare for someone to get a "Good Job" right out of college or out of High School.

That is a huge part of the problem people don't want to sacrifice so they can get the experience so they can take that step towards the good job.

Only 26 here, with a wife (prego again), and one daughter. Full time student plus contracted to NASA doing satellite communications and own 2 houses. I did my 6yrs with the military, I contracted after that (Spent almost 2yrs away from my wife, so I could get the commercial experience.)

If I was a hiring manager, I would definitely not hire the people that didn't want to sacrifice. To me that just shows you want hand outs and your not going to work as hard as you can.

Really there is no catch 22 just people without drive.

my 2 cents

get off my lawn
 
2010-08-22 4:59:35 PM  

dmax: not_an_indigo: Parents need to let their kids grow up.

And our culture needs to lose its disgust for real work. All our cultural media contend that the hard working folks are either illegal or stupid. Instead, they're frequently just hard-working and capable.

It would be a good thing for people to lose their aspiration to be sports stars or actors or singers or famous just for being famous. Instead, the people that are famous should be famous for their contributions to America, not that they've been caught giving head in a hotel room by a videocamera.


I certainly agree that there is plenty of hero worship for jobs like sports stars that is unhealthy at best. When you figure for every man playing in the NBA there are what, 10,000 to 20,000 men who did NOT make it to the NBA and have to actually make a living...

I dunno, I wanted to get a job as soon as I could because I wanted to own things - so working was my way of earning the cash to get things I could not have had otherwise. Sure, working all the way thru Jr. and Sr. high school [friday and sat nights only except on school holidays] taught me the value of my time and the value of money.

BUT, I think like many people referenced above in the articles, while I was not afraid to work for a living, I wanted a career that was not pushing a shovel or making Pizza [which I did for almost 10 years].

And, it took me a couple of years post college to get my bearings - my BA was not all that useful, although writing is always a useful skill. I got rejected for graduate school two years running, so I decided to go to a trade school. Upon completion, I got a job and started at the bottom, and worked my way up to a senior position over 17 years [including one relocation] with one firm then started my own company, which was profitable from the first year.

My advice to young people today would be this: Find something to do that cannot be easily outsourced. Trades pay pretty darn well even if you 'work' for a living. Electricians, plumbers, HVAC, communciations systems, hardware and installation will never move overseas.

Firefighter, cop....

Healthcare - Nurses make a lot of money today. Even aides make good money and talk about portable careers.

Foodservice - although it's a long slog, a successful restaurant owner makes good bucks. There are plenty of jobs in corporate foodservice that work 'normal' hours and days - 7a - 5p monday-friday.

There used to be an old saw about doing what you love and you will never work a day in your life. Hey, good luck with that. I'm more along the lines of another friend of mine who noted that life is a s*it sandwich, the more bread you have the less s*it you have to eat.
 
2010-08-22 4:59:51 PM  

TRIGONALMAYHEM: CAN'T GET A GOOD JOB WITHOUT EXPERIENCE.

CAN'T GET EXPERIENCE BECAUSE THE GOOD JOBS REQUIRE EXPERIENCE.


That's because you're shortcutting and frustrated that you can't game the system.

It's
EDUCATION TO BECOME EMPLOYABLE (doesn't have to be college, could be apprentice)
TAKE CRAP JOB TO DEVELOP EXPERTISE IN THE REAL WORLD
WORK YOUR WAY UP, SCRIMPING TO DEVELOP A NEST EGG
END UP IN GOOD JOB WITH MONEY IN THE BANK THAT YOU DIDN'T WASTE AT STARBUCKS
MAKE FUN OF THE KIDS IN "GENERATION ENTITLEMENT"

/not like I would've lived this life, you think?
 
2010-08-22 5:02:40 PM  
Well la-tee-da, good for you. Your anecdotal experience does not represent the norm, so go fark yourself. I'm so sick of "WELL I DID OK SO YOU OTHER PEOPLE ARE LAZY/STUPID/WHATEVER" guys on the interwebs. I know plenty of hard working and talented people who are struggling to survive because they can't even find retail jobs. Actually, I'm one of them, too. This shiat has everything to do with the economy and the system the baby boomers broke horribly with shiatty political choices and slowly ceding more and more control to corporate interests.

Oh, and I had a 'decent' job out of college. It underpaid by about half and involved some shiat I'd rather have not done, but it was ok. Got laid off from that in 2008 and have had farkall luck finding anything even comparable in wages. My unemployment ran out, and now I'm struggling to even find anything that pays $10hr. Or $8, even.

The biggest issue I have, which someone on the first page commented about too, is that I'm 'in-between' experience levels.

For simple jobs I'm considered too overqualified. For real jobs I'm totally qualified for skill-wise, I'm usually ignored because I don't have x years of industry experience using exactly such-and-such software application I could learn in less than a week (where x is typically 5, but lately 7 or 8). It's a really awful place to be in, because it's not like I can magically create or erase experience. I could probably make another resume for shiatty jobs and leave off my degree, but that's still a dead-end road that's not going to ever lead to me doing something I'm skilled at and getting paid properly for it.
 
2010-08-22 5:22:33 PM  
You boomers killed the world and ruined the economy, there is no denying that. Dont come crying to me about ANYTHING at this point.

Lay in the bed you made.
 
2010-08-22 5:27:54 PM  

Baron Von Supercock: You boomers killed the world and ruined the economy, there is no denying that. Dont come crying to me about ANYTHING at this point.

Lay in the bed you made.


And lie in that bed for weeks, unwashed and lying in your own feces. Kiss your medicare goodbye, assholes.

I don't know who they expect to pay for that shiat when they stunted the earning potential of an entire generation (one that just happens to be the one expected to pay for their retirements and old fart medicine). Yeah, those jobs you shipped overseas/eliminated in the name of 'productivity gains'/decided to collectively underpay for? Those were going to be ours, and we were going to support you with them as you get old and decrepit. Good luck with that now, I hope you saved all that money you made from that shiat.
 
2010-08-22 5:31:40 PM  

Baron Von Supercock: You boomers killed the world and ruined the economy, there is no denying that. Dont come crying to me about ANYTHING at this point.

Lay in the bed you made.


STFU and get me my FRIES!
 
2010-08-22 5:32:24 PM  

justinguarini4ever: jbrooks544: logophile: jbrooks544: Stupid-assed parents allow their kids to move back in. My 12 and 9 year old have been told since early on that they are expected to be gone after 18 and college.

- They can take relatively menial jobs if necessary, like I did.

- They can experience this odd thing called "ROOMMATES", which seems to be an odd thought these days.

It is not an option for my kids to not grow up and to move back in. If parents make that a policy, then it isn't going to happen.

/stupid modern parents

please please please please remember that attitude when, in 20 or 30 years, you're shocked and horrified to be stuck in public nursing care and the kids don't come to visit.

Yeah... Ok...?

No, what you say is kooky. It is really quit simple - If your kid suggests he live in your house after college, you say "no". My parents did this and I'm not bitter. I had roommates for a couple years.

It is called "being an adult".

I sincerely hope you change your mind in 10 years. Even if your children do get jobs right after college, I guarantee that removing the safety net of home and family will add negative stress to you and your children, make them less likely to move out of a bad career, and make them more willing to move far away from you.


I don't agree with you at all. I'm convinced that it is harmful to young adults to be treated like children. I've seen no shortage of people 18 - 30+ still living at home, who have no incentive to grow up and be independent. Parents don't do their (adult) kids any favors by by insulating them from the real world. If my kids aren't able to fend for themselves after 18 or 22 years, then I'd consider myself to be pretty weak, and not a good parent. My job is to raise mature, self-responsible people. It is better for someone to have 3 roommates in a crappy apartment for a few years, and work in a low entry position - rather than be lame and dependent, with no incentive to live an adult life.
Your "safety net" might apply in dire circumstances, but that is not why most young adults live at home. They live at home because mommy and daddy let them. They do that, and they just stay adolescent into a period of their lives where they should be adults.
 
2010-08-22 5:33:11 PM  

NYZooMan: Baron Von Supercock: You boomers killed the world and ruined the economy, there is no denying that. Dont come crying to me about ANYTHING at this point.

Lay in the bed you made.

STFU and get me my FRIES!


I'm not qualified to. I don't have a Masters Degree in Fast Food Engineering with ten years experience.
 
2010-08-22 5:39:55 PM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: btrflykate: What gets me about this article is that they refer the point in your twenties as a "developmental period" meaning, everyone goes through it. There were some psychologists who seemed on the fence about it but overall there seems to be a consensus that this is a "developmental period".

I'm 24. I have a full-time job, a son, and I'm in grad school. I'm fully self-sustainable and independent. No spouse.

Do I sometimes take a look at my peers and feel like I'm missing out? Eh. Dependis. I don't really feel the need to go through this "developmental period". I'm a well adjusted adult and I'm okay with my responsibilities. Should all my peers be like me? Not necessarily, but I do think some semblance of being independent would be good for everyone in their twenties.

I'd be interested to know what access to opportunities you had available to you. It's seem rather rare that a 20-something single parent could be in grad school without some serious financial or career assistance.


I work in higher ed so they pay for my classes. I chose a career path that was good for my needs as a mom and someone who wanted to go to grad school.
 
2010-08-22 6:34:58 PM  

calbert: oh thank the lord, someone figured out how to submit the 'single page' option of a long article


+1 for having brains heromitter


Why do they even have pageinated articles like that anymore? It's not the farking dial up era anymore (and even if it was, making me click and load several times only compounds the issue)
 
2010-08-22 7:38:44 PM  
Let me suggest this "problem" occurs because we older folks never treat youth as adults. For example, absolutely, positively mandate that no one may drink until 21 years old and then wonder why no one drinks responsibly at age 21.
 
2010-08-22 8:58:54 PM  
I have to agree with the posters above. Getting a decent job is incredibly hard. For someone like me, I'm a 20-something who lives with my parents, I've had part-time jobs but the ones I'm supposed to get with my bachelors degree in MIS and one year of grad school all require experience I don't have. How am I supposed to get experience when all the jobs ask for experience? And not only that, but I'm pretty sure years of experience working at McDonald's is not the experience they are looking for. Plus, they'd rather hire high school degree/GED candidates instead.
 
2010-08-22 9:05:59 PM  
Part of the problem here is over education in America. Virtually everyone goes to college now so the market is flooded with degrees. Most of them useless ones at that. Electicians, plumbers, HVAC, are all lucrative fields that seem to forgotten. That BA in Library seems more important now.....

In Germany kids are tested and separated at age 12 where they will be prepped for either college or a trade school. Maybe that would be a better system here.
 
2010-08-22 9:12:49 PM  

dead_dangler: TRIGONALMAYHEM: CAN'T GET A GOOD JOB WITHOUT EXPERIENCE.

CAN'T GET EXPERIENCE BECAUSE THE GOOD JOBS REQUIRE EXPERIENCE.

Say what?
Catch-22, fark being young and fark the world.

Or, you could do what I (and a lot of other people) did: don't expect a large salary just because you've got a degree, offer to work for peanuts in order to gain experience, work your ass off, get promoted, and then start making a decent salary after you've paid your dues.

/but 'dangler, I'm WORTH so much more. And that sounds HAAAAARD


In fairness, you have to remember that anyone born from 1970 to today has been told over and over the same thing. Let me illustrate it for you:

Good grades in High School = go to college
Do well in college = get 50k-60k a year job in the real world

Nevermind that some good colleges have a 40% rate for people not graduating. Despite high school students who have great standardized test scores and great grades, some of them simply can't do complicated thinking no matter what they've been told all their lives. And nevermind that even among all students that graduate with an undergraduate degree, there are not enough jobs for them.

See, you can blame the whiny kids who complain that they can't get good jobs, but what has every advertisement, for every school, and what has every school counselor, TV show, movie, and novel told them while they were growing up? They've been told that a college degree is a ticket to a good job. It's not just a white lie, it's a damned lie that ignores even basic statistics on who gets what jobs.

What's really sad is that the same generation that was told that college always equals good job were never told that skilled trades make good money. Only poor people and ethnic minorities the middle class does not approve of do those jobs, so why tell the middle class kids? It's a pity, because some skilled trades make good money. And you never know how much money they make until you get the bill from your plumber or electrician.

The only good news out there is that IF you can get entry level work, and work hard, you can get the experience employers are looking for. You probably won't get promoted at your current job, but that's not the trick. The trick is to put that experience on a resume and start shopping around long before you even think you want to change jobs. If employers want to treat their workers like expendable parts (and many do) then feel free to sell your labor to the highest bidder. Loyalty to employers is not the route to a good job and steady pay anymore (if it ever really was).
 
2010-08-22 9:14:24 PM  

the_red_spectacle: I have to agree with the posters above. Getting a decent job is incredibly hard. For someone like me, I'm a 20-something who lives with my parents, I've had part-time jobs but the ones I'm supposed to get with my bachelors degree in MIS and one year of grad school all require experience I don't have. How am I supposed to get experience when all the jobs ask for experience? And not only that, but I'm pretty sure years of experience working at McDonald's is not the experience they are looking for. Plus, they'd rather hire high school degree/GED candidates instead.


Wahhhh getting a job is hard! I expected easy employment to be handed to me on a silver platter!! Wahhhh!!!! Work sucks, then you die. This is all you need to know about human society.
 
2010-08-22 9:16:38 PM  
Paelian:

In short: People are stupid, college is a racket, and hard, grueling work is necessary but not sufficient for financial success.

/this has been true for hundreds of years
 
2010-08-22 9:27:25 PM  

TRIGONALMAYHEM: For simple jobs I'm considered too overqualified. For real jobs I'm totally qualified for skill-wise, I'm usually ignored because I don't have x years of industry experience using exactly such-and-such software application I could learn in less than a week (where x is typically 5, but lately 7 or 8). It's a really awful place to be in, because it's not like I can magically create or erase experience. I could probably make another resume for shiatty jobs and leave off my degree, but that's still a dead-end road that's not going to ever lead to me doing something I'm skilled at and getting paid properly for it.


crg5980: Part of the problem here is over education in America. Virtually everyone goes to college now so the market is flooded with degrees. Most of them useless ones at that. Electicians, plumbers, HVAC, are all lucrative fields that seem to forgotten. That BA in Library seems more important now.....

In Germany kids are tested and separated at age 12 where they will be prepped for either college or a trade school. Maybe that would be a better system here.


These.
 
2010-08-22 9:31:30 PM  
Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom:

Wahhhh!!!! Work sucks, then you die. This is all you need to know about human society.

If only someone had said that before!
 
2010-08-22 9:42:26 PM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Paelian:

In short: People are stupid, college is a racket, and hard, grueling work is necessary but not sufficient for financial success.

/this has been true for hundreds of years


A good summary, but let me add a phrase:

"...and financial success, as defined by your current culture, may not even be what you are really looking for."

There's a big difference between putting food on the table, having a roof over your head, and having enough medical care to not go to the ER for every little thing and having a job that pays 70K a year. I learned a long time ago that I could work a 70k a year job for 60 hours a week or a 35k a year job for 40 hours a week, and that I would prefer the time off rather than the extra cash. My hobbies are inexpensive, and time spent with those I care about is more important. When I was working 60 or more hours a week, I made great money, but hardly had time to spend it. I didn't even get to eat good food because I was at work all the time. Not everyone would make my choice, but knowing that there is a choice to be made is something more people should know. Many people never factor in time spent working into their cost-benefit analysis when choosing jobs.

As for college being a racket, I will point out that if you go into college with your eyes open, it is a very different thing than going to school because mommy and daddy want you to get a good job. A substantial number of my students don't even know what they really want to do, but instead of just getting a menial job for a few years, getting some kind of work experience, and waiting to decide what they really want to do, they just go to college. Some of my best students are 40 year old folks who are just now going to school because they finally figured out what a college education could really offer them. One student had built up and sold two whole businesses at a large profit over 20 years and had finally decided that he wanted to teach. Not because he needed a job, but because he had enough money, but wanted to do something he felt was important. That's a very different way of approaching college than the 18 year-olds who have been brainwashed with the "Go to college or never get above poverty level employment again" mantra.
 
2010-08-22 9:45:35 PM  
Now I know why my parents were members of the "greatest" generation that won World War 2.

It's because they all fought alongside each other, and once the war was over, the rich Conservatives didn't mind the fact that the underclass could achieve middle class status through manual labor. And Liberal working class people didn't mind the fact that people with a little more brains than brawn could get rich in America. This all happened because ALL classes had to fight together during World War 2.

It all went south when Vietnam was only fought by minorities and working-class whites, and the era of Globalism and Class Warfare started in the late 1970s.

Now, the rich want to eliminate the middle class and the poor want to eat the rich.

Class Warfare can always be avoided by one thing. The existence of a middle class.
 
2010-08-22 11:04:05 PM  

Kasira: dead_dangler: GristleDick: I like bashing the youngsters as much as anybody, (Especially about their complete inability to create decent rock and roll), But things really have changed. When I fist moved out in 1976, I was able to support myself with a part-time minimum wage ($2.60 hr) job and a room mate. Now you have to make a decent salary to even think about moving out. It's HARDER. WAY the fark harder.

No shiat. Back then, all you had to pay for was rent and food. Nowadays you've got to pay for high-speed internet, unlimited data plans for your cell phone, x-box live accounts, and a whole host of other expenses.

$7.25*40*4*.8 = $928, approximately, after taxes. Figure rent at $600, utilities are $300, and food is...oh wait, you don't eat at that wage. And that's assuming you can get 40 hrs a week, every week.


If you get a roommate, like most young people do, you're down to $450 + cost of food.
 
2010-08-23 2:32:53 AM  
Paelian: What's really sad is that the same generation that was told that college always equals good job were never told that skilled trades make good money. Only poor people and ethnic minorities the middle class does not approve of do those jobs, so why tell the middle class kids?

If skilled trades make good money, why are the skilled laborers "poor people"?
 
2010-08-23 4:38:10 AM  

sk8r: Steam Powered Cat: Oh gods this shiat. I'm just under 30, with my JD (brand new) and am still looking for my first real job in a shiat economy. It is real hard to pass those life milestones when no one wants to hire someone who doesn't have "experience" but in this economy I can't blame them. There's more attorneys than jobs and far more experienced people than me are out of work and more desperate than I am.

But what is the American elder generation's obsession of having to meet milestones? I'm poor, in debt (all educational), and living in a small apartment. But I'm happy, working a job that doesn't provide enough hours to move up, job hunting and living with my honey (whom I cannot legally marry) in a small affordable apartment. Getting a house would be fiscally irresponsible, as would having a kid (not to mention the expenses of adopting). Granted this would change the second some firm wants to take a chance on some newbie with only two years of working experience like me.

I admit that I've kinda fallen into the trap that being out on my own equals success. Moving back in with my parents would be the fiscally prudent thing to do, but at this point I'd rather wait tables to supplement my income from my law job than do that.

Good God, don't go back in with the parents. When our family relocated cross country, my parents offered to have me and the kids stay with them while the DH finished selling our house and packing. I thought it would be a great time- kiddies getting to know their grandparents better etc.

Parents don't stop being parents. It was like being chopped off at the knees. You are back in the kid role. I can't understand how the kids in TFA would want to be back in with the parents. "Where are you going?" and "When will you be back?" are really reasonable things to ask but they feel like nails on a chalkboard after you have been out on your own.

Hear the tips at Olive Garden are good.


Oh gods I get that already when i visit on the weekends. I go from a mostly-responsible adult helping people with their complex and expensive legal issues to a 12 year old who cannot dress herself.
 
2010-08-23 11:07:45 AM  

dead_dangler: GristleDick: I like bashing the youngsters as much as anybody, (Especially about their complete inability to create decent rock and roll), But things really have changed. When I fist moved out in 1976, I was able to support myself with a part-time minimum wage ($2.60 hr) job and a room mate. Now you have to make a decent salary to even think about moving out. It's HARDER. WAY the fark harder.

No shiat. Back then, all you had to pay for was rent and food. Nowadays you've got to pay for high-speed internet, unlimited data plans for your cell phone, x-box live accounts, and a whole host of other expenses.


And dead_dangler hits the nail on the head.

Want to make it starting out? Cut out all of the shiat you don't need!

My first job was making $19k a year. I ate a crapload of mac n cheese and had zero social life. I skrimped and saved and spent my spare time bettering my work skills.

Now I make a very comfortable living as an IT Manager.

1. Cut the fat out of your life.
2. Save for a rainy day.
3. Continually better yourself and get off the damn XBox for 4 hours a night.
 
2010-08-23 12:17:36 PM  
Milestones suck. I was poked & prodded along to achieve all those milestones, and I never once felt proud or happy about achieving them.

I look back on my adolescence like I was being sold something.
 
2010-08-23 12:41:52 PM  
Anyone who would peg this phenomenon on some notion of generational traits instead of economic conditions is an idiot. It's a lot easier to "grow up" when you live in the freaking golden age, baby boomers.
 
2010-08-23 1:04:11 PM  

llortcM_yllort: Paelian: What's really sad is that the same generation that was told that college always equals good job were never told that skilled trades make good money. Only poor people and ethnic minorities the middle class does not approve of do those jobs, so why tell the middle class kids?

If skilled trades make good money, why are the skilled laborers "poor people"?


They're not really poor. The image portrayed in culture is that skilled trades are poor folks. The reality is that they make better money than low-end retail and fast food. But that's not what gets talked about. It's the "poor, dirty people do those jobs" mentality, regardless of what the reality of the situation is.

Heck, in some cities, sanitation workers make good money and have decent retirement because they are city employees.

Why segments of the middle class view certain jobs this way is a question I am not qualified to answer.
 
2010-08-23 1:30:38 PM  
Everyone I know started college when jobs were available. When they graduated all of those "lucrative" jobs were gone. IT, designers, engineers, teachers, lawyers, everyone is having a hard time. The only people I know that have some chance of getting a decent job went to medical school in a 3rd world country and then have their parents pull strings to get them jobs in the US (not exactly "grown-up" and independent). I've been lucky enough to be an employed designer, but when people with law degrees and MBAs can't find anything decent (and I make more than some of them), there is a serious problem.
 
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