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(Chud)   What happens when a director makes a movie in which everything that happens is a dream and never really occurred? If it's M. Night: FAIL. If it's Christopher Nolan: GENIUS (No spoilers in headline, yes in article)   (chud.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, Inglorious Basterds, the film, Fellini, catharsis, Bobby Fischer, Hollywood movie, devin, Leonardo DiCaprio  
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4041 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 19 Jul 2010 at 2:01 PM (10 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2010-07-19 10:07:15 AM  
I'm pretty firmly in the "not a dream" camp.
 
2010-07-19 10:11:43 AM  
Let's see, one is an excuse for plot holes, the other is the point of the movie. Yeah totally comparable.

Actually what M. Night movie used it's just a dream as a plot point? I can't think of one.
 
2010-07-19 10:13:57 AM  
And if you're Leiji Matsumoto? Incredible.
 
2010-07-19 10:25:10 AM  
Don't forget the TV show Dallas, where they hit the reboot button one september and declared that the previous season had been a dream.
 
2010-07-19 11:06:43 AM  
chicagonow.comView Full Size
 
2010-07-19 11:20:26 AM  
Maybe someone here can explain to me how the following are not massive plot holes. I can't bother analyzing the point of the movie with these things unresolved in my mind:

1) Limbo supposedly was where you go when killed in a dream while sedated. How did Cobb and Ariadne get into limbo by going to sleep in Level 3? Oughtn't that just have taken them to Level 4? And if all you need to wake up from Limbo is to kill yourself, why were they talking about it like it was such an inescapable place? Also, how did Ariadne "kick" herself out of Limbo? Throughout the rest of the movie, a kick was only used to wake someone up in the level above.

2) Why did Saito age so drastically in Limbo? Cobb went after him from Level 3, not from the waking world. The time dilation wouldn't have multiplied like that, he should have only been there for a few hours or so.

3) What was the point of Cobb's top? If someone else knew that it spun forever in his dreams, it seems like it couldn't be used to verify crap -- and Cobb wasn't particularly good about hiding what the gimmick of his totem was.
 
2010-07-19 11:35:15 AM  
M. Night FAIL has a nice ring to it.
 
2010-07-19 11:43:12 AM  

poonesfarm: www.chicagonow.com


Pure awesome!
 
2010-07-19 11:43:55 AM  

Senescent Dawn: Maybe someone here can explain to me how the following are not massive plot holes. I can't bother analyzing the point of the movie with these things unresolved in my mind:

1) Limbo supposedly was where you go when killed in a dream while sedated. How did Cobb and Ariadne get into limbo by going to sleep in Level 3? Oughtn't that just have taken them to Level 4? And if all you need to wake up from Limbo is to kill yourself, why were they talking about it like it was such an inescapable place? Also, how did Ariadne "kick" herself out of Limbo? Throughout the rest of the movie, a kick was only used to wake someone up in the level above.

2) Why did Saito age so drastically in Limbo? Cobb went after him from Level 3, not from the waking world. The time dilation wouldn't have multiplied like that, he should have only been there for a few hours or so.

3) What was the point of Cobb's top? If someone else knew that it spun forever in his dreams, it seems like it couldn't be used to verify crap -- and Cobb wasn't particularly good about hiding what the gimmick of his totem was.


This is why after a while in the movie I gave up trying to understand the mechanics of the world and tried to just appreciate the movie for what the director wanted us to see it for. I don't usually give directors a break like that. Maybe I was just in a benevolent mood.

I too would like to know which Shylaman movie subby was referring to. It must have been one of his that I didn't see. Unless he's referring to The Sixth Sense. In which case subby is wrong.

It would have been cool if the main character had to discard his totem for some reason in order to end the chain of events. That would have REALLY messed with people's opinion about whether it was all a dream or not.
 
2010-07-19 12:28:25 PM  

Cagey B: M. Night FAIL has a nice ring to it.


It's also redundant.
 
2010-07-19 12:35:10 PM  

Senescent Dawn: 1) Limbo supposedly was where you go when killed in a dream while sedated. How did Cobb and Ariadne get into limbo by going to sleep in Level 3? Oughtn't that just have taken them to Level 4? And if all you need to wake up from Limbo is to kill yourself, why were they talking about it like it was such an inescapable place? Also, how did Ariadne "kick" herself out of Limbo? Throughout the rest of the movie, a kick was only used to wake someone up in the level above.


They used the machine to enter Fischer's "dream" - ie limbo. Fischer was already there, thus there was something to have access to.

Remember, each dream is being dreamt by somebody, and the machine they use lets you choose who's dream to enter.

First level: Yusuf
Second level: Arthur
Third level: Eames
Fourth level: Fischer

That's how I interpret it. Another way of interpreting it is that you can enter limbo whenever you want. It's a pre-programmed button on the machine.

Senescent Dawn: 2) Why did Saito age so drastically in Limbo? Cobb went after him from Level 3, not from the waking world. The time dilation wouldn't have multiplied like that, he should have only been there for a few hours or so.


Two answers:

A) Time is weird as fark in limbo. That's part of the problem.
B) You have to rethink the order of it. Here another order so it makes sense:

1) Fischer dies, goes to limbo.
2) Ariadne and Cobb to down after him.
3) Saito dies and follows them. We now have 4 people in limbo all on the same time line.
4) Fischer and Ariadne get a kick - they go back up to level 3. Now it's just Saito and Cobb, still on the same time.
5) Cobb then dies in limbo from the stab wound from Mal. That's a kick which takes him out of limbo. Now Saito is there alone, and god knows how long that will last.
6) But Cobb's chance to wake up in level 2 is now gone, so he doesn't wake up in level 1. Not waking up in level 1, he dies in level one (we see him drown in the van), and is sent back down to limbo again!
7) Cobb is now back in limbo, waking up on the beach as we see in the very first scene. It's been 50 years there for Saito, and Cobb needs to rescue him and remind him of reality.

That's a very convoluted path, but it's implied.

Senescent Dawn: 3) What was the point of Cobb's top? If someone else knew that it spun forever in his dreams, it seems like it couldn't be used to verify crap -- and Cobb wasn't particularly good about hiding what the gimmick of his totem was.


I need to think about this one more.
 
2010-07-19 12:48:45 PM  
By the way, here's my meta-answer for why it was not all a dream:

"It's all a dream" is to the audience what "your world is not real" is to Mal.

Nolan implants this idea in us. He implants this notion that whatever we're watching is a dream. We are being trained to search for hints. Search for reasons to doubt the reality of what were watching. Christopher Nolan's movie is an act of inception on the audience. And more than that, like Cobb in the movie, he does it in such a way as to make us think it's *our* idea. We pride ourselves on finding clues, finding reasons. We think we've figured it out.

But just like Mal, the idea has grown too large. We are letting it gnaw at us even when we shouldn't. Just like Mal's world *was* real, so too was the movie's. But the inception makes her and us doubt that. But don't let that virus dominate you. Accept things as they are.
 
2010-07-19 1:12:40 PM  

DamnYankees: Senescent Dawn: 3) What was the point of Cobb's top? If someone else knew that it spun forever in his dreams, it seems like it couldn't be used to verify crap -- and Cobb wasn't particularly good about hiding what the gimmick of his totem was.

I need to think about this one more.


Well, the theory for it all being a dream is that Arthur and crew made a dream to put Cobb in so he would be at rest and stop farking up their missions. He's too well-trained to put in any simple dream, though. So they made this dreamscape and even re-designed his own totem.

But for this to work you need to figure why scenes without Cobb are shown. Do these exist with him watching omnipresently (as we do in many of our dreams)? If so, why doesn't his training kick in and say "hey, why am I watching this without being there?" Is the illusion that strong?

However, we/they may do not know all of the totem properties of the top. We just know it falls at some point.
 
2010-07-19 1:17:31 PM  

manimal2878: Actually what M. Night movie used it's just a dream as a plot point? I can't think of one.


Same here... headline doesn't make sense to me since M. Night hasn't done anything comparable to Inception.

The only thing I can think of that comes close is the twist of 6th sense (Spoiler ahead: He's been dead the whole time is comparable to He's been dreaming the whole time Spoiler done)... and that movie was well received.
 
2010-07-19 1:50:05 PM  

HulkHands: DamnYankees: Senescent Dawn: 3) What was the point of Cobb's top? If someone else knew that it spun forever in his dreams, it seems like it couldn't be used to verify crap -- and Cobb wasn't particularly good about hiding what the gimmick of his totem was.

I need to think about this one more.

Well, the theory for it all being a dream is that Arthur and crew made a dream to put Cobb in so he would be at rest and stop farking up their missions. He's too well-trained to put in any simple dream, though. So they made this dreamscape and even re-designed his own totem.


Half the argument for Cobb being in a dream was made by Mal. You can't go home to your kids, all these mysterious forces are trying to get you, and you never get a scratch on you. He's a daring rebel doing dangerous espionage - doesn't that sound more like a dream to you than reality?

The flaw with his totem is that it belonged to someone else. I don't know how he didn't see it; the dream could easily be Mal's creation.
 
2010-07-19 1:55:08 PM  
Here's an OH SHI- for you I thought of:

Mal is Cobb's totem.

He can tell it's a dream when she appears (which is all of his dreams/other dreams in the movie), in part due to the fact she acts nothing like her and is in fact dead in real life.

This helps him in limbo due to the fact that while it is close, nothing can in fact replicate her, not even his imagination. It's the perfect totem.

The problem with having her as a totem is that she can act out and fark things up.
 
2010-07-19 2:03:37 PM  
Except that it all wasn't a dream, that's a great article, Devin.
 
2010-07-19 2:05:43 PM  
um...how is this headline not a spoiler???

I was going to watch this movie this week, and now the twist has been given away...
 
2010-07-19 2:10:04 PM  

omegadirective: um...how is this headline not a spoiler???

I was going to watch this movie this week, and now the twist has been given away...


You didn't get anything. The ending is ambiguous. That's all you need to know.

/now if you read some of the posts in this thread you learn the plot
 
2010-07-19 2:10:26 PM  

DamnYankees: Senescent Dawn: 1) Limbo supposedly was where you go when killed in a dream while sedated. How did Cobb and Ariadne get into limbo by going to sleep in Level 3? Oughtn't that just have taken them to Level 4? And if all you need to wake up from Limbo is to kill yourself, why were they talking about it like it was such an inescapable place? Also, how did Ariadne "kick" herself out of Limbo? Throughout the rest of the movie, a kick was only used to wake someone up in the level above.

They used the machine to enter Fischer's "dream" - ie limbo. Fischer was already there, thus there was something to have access to.

Remember, each dream is being dreamt by somebody, and the machine they use lets you choose who's dream to enter.

First level: Yusuf
Second level: Arthur
Third level: Eames
Fourth level: Fischer

That's how I interpret it. Another way of interpreting it is that you can enter limbo whenever you want. It's a pre-programmed button on the machine.


Limbo as it is explained in the movie is undeveloped dream space, there is no "dreamer" for that level it is occupied by the subconscious of all who enter, which is why Cobb and Mal's portion of Limbo is different than Saito's version. Same level of dream space, different construction concepts.
 
2010-07-19 2:11:12 PM  

omegadirective: um...how is this headline not a spoiler???

I was going to watch this movie this week, and now the twist has been given away...


Without spoiling anything, yes and no. Just see it.
 
2010-07-19 2:12:03 PM  

omegadirective: um...how is this headline not a spoiler???

I was going to watch this movie this week, and now the twist has been given away...


Go see the movie, and ignore this article. The author is wrong.
 
2010-07-19 2:12:37 PM  

HulkHands: Here's an OH SHI- for you I thought of:

Mal is Cobb's totem.

He can tell it's a dream when she appears (which is all of his dreams/other dreams in the movie), in part due to the fact she acts nothing like her and is in fact dead in real life.

This helps him in limbo due to the fact that while it is close, nothing can in fact replicate her, not even his imagination. It's the perfect totem.

The problem with having her as a totem is that she can act out and fark things up.


You know, if I hadn't seen the movie I would've read the three threads on it today and thought "wow, this movie must be farking AWESOME!!!11!!". But since I actually saw it I know it was more of a 'yeah, pretty good' movie.
 
2010-07-19 2:12:43 PM  
I'm going with that Michael Caine's was actually assisting Dicaprio in moving past the loss of his wife and everything else is just filler.
 
2010-07-19 2:12:58 PM  
Okay, a couple of questions for FARK.

Spoilers....

1) Why did the van flipping not kick them out of level 2? When they were discussing the sedative, JGL came out of it just tipping over in the chair. You would think flipping a van would do the job?

2) How do we know the top is the wife's totem? What if the scenes of her in limbo placing it in the safe are just after she stole it from Cobb? Or did I miss the part where it explicitly stated it was hers? (I probably did)

I enjoyed the film, and was glad they did the whole choose your own ending. I fall on the side of reality, because he saw his children's faces. He could not do that in the "dreams". That indicates to me that it was reality time.
 
2010-07-19 2:13:16 PM  
I got your spoilers right here...

i635.photobucket.comView Full Size
 
2010-07-19 2:19:57 PM  
I'm in the ending wasn't a dream, maybe as it did appear as though the totem was starting to wobble.
 
2010-07-19 2:21:16 PM  
It's perfectly fair to apply different grades to the same technique becuse one person uses it better than the other.

It's like if Kate Beckinsale and your grandmother both did the same pole dance - yeah, technically they're engaged in the same activity, but the results are going to differ.
 
2010-07-19 2:25:07 PM  

Banky_The_Hack: Okay, a couple of questions for FARK.

Spoilers....

1) Why did the van flipping not kick them out of level 2? When they were discussing the sedative, JGL came out of it just tipping over in the chair. You would think flipping a van would do the job?


I have a feeling the people in the dream need to accept it as well to be out of the dream. I think they set it up so that they came out during the 1st or 2nd kick.
 
2010-07-19 2:25:49 PM  

bukketmaster: It's perfectly fair to apply different grades to the same technique becuse one person uses it better than the other.

It's like if Kate Beckinsale and your grandmother both did the same pole dance - yeah, technically they're engaged in the same activity, but the results are going to differ.


Hey, my grandmother has decades more experiance at pole dancing than Kate Beckinsale so you just hold off on your judgement.
 
2010-07-19 2:27:25 PM  
Remember, everybody, Troll of Trolls Armond White will most likely get into a blowout argument with Slashfilm during their podcast tonight at 9 EST about Inception.

/considering they're just going to end up redoing the review by themselves after what happens tonight, might as well get as many people listening to this trainwreck live
 
2010-07-19 2:28:26 PM  

roflmaonow: I have a feeling the people in the dream need to accept it as well to be out of the dream. I think they set it up so that they came out during the 1st or 2nd kick.


I don't think Arthur was under the amount of sedative that they were all under in the van, you know, just to show Juno what they were up to.
 
2010-07-19 2:30:05 PM  

Banky_The_Hack: 1) Why did the van flipping not kick them out of level 2? When they were discussing the sedative, JGL came out of it just tipping over in the chair. You would think flipping a van would do the job?

2) How do we know the top is the wife's totem? What if the scenes of her in limbo placing it in the safe are just after she stole it from Cobb? Or did I miss the part where it explicitly stated it was hers? (I probably did)


1. They were in the third dream level (snow fort) they had to kick out of it to the second level (Hotel) in order to get the kick back to the first (Van). I guess you can't be kicked out more than one level up.

2. He said the totem was Mal's idea. If he was the architect in their experiments, then it would be her totem. The totem doesn't matter. It is a physical object whose particulars are not known to the architect. The architect may know about the die, but not how it is weighted. So the owner of the die can tell if he is in a dream. (Similar to how Taito knows the rug is fake and he is in a dream). However, I don't know how the top would "spin forever" for different architects.
 
2010-07-19 2:31:02 PM  
Would it be better if everything was a book a middle-American woman was writing with embellishments to liven it up?
 
2010-07-19 2:32:42 PM  

roflmaonow: Spoilers....

1) Why did the van flipping not kick them out of level 2? When they were discussing the sedative, JGL came out of it just tipping over in the chair. You would think flipping a van would do the job?

I have a feeling the people in the dream need to accept it as well to be out of the dream. I think they set it up so that they came out during the 1st or 2nd kick.


Well, when they were discussing the sedative, he didn't actually come out of it, they just sort of suggested that's how it would work. The kick was always preceded by some sort of auditory cure or some deliberate act, so maybe they do need to be 'pepared' for it to work.

Jard01: It's like if Kate Beckinsale and your grandmother both did the same pole dance - yeah, technically they're engaged in the same activity, but the results are going to differ.

Hey, my grandmother has decades more experiance at pole dancing than Kate Beckinsale so you just hold off on your judgement.


Experienced old ladies are only fun with the lights off. Even if she knows how to use it, nobody actually wants to see it.
 
2010-07-19 2:33:45 PM  
I saw the movie and am in the camp that it was all a dream. At least the ending. I had a 20 minute arguement with my two friends who also saw it that night and they felt that he had achieved going home.
No matter how the ending is interpreted the movie is still good and well worth the price of admission.
/Would it have killed them to slip in a scene of Mal dancing around naked or getting farked during Cobb's memory elevator.
 
2010-07-19 2:34:58 PM  
Isn't the totem only able to tell you if you're in someone else's dream? Couldn't you be in your own dream and have your totem behave as expected?
 
2010-07-19 2:37:09 PM  
Did anybody alse notice that the snow fort is an exact replica of Shadow Moses from Metal Gear Solid? Either that was put in by Nolan as a reference as an homage, it was a convenient set on the studio lot from a failed MGS film, or it implies that the Architect is a gamer in the film. None of those are mutually exclusive.
 
2010-07-19 2:38:14 PM  
Spoilerish:

The underlying theme of the movie is simply:
"How do you know that this is the reality that is real?"
It is presented early on and reiterated throughout the entire film.

Moll introduced the concept of totems. Totems are a flawed concept in that they are supposed to let you know that you are in someone else's dream because it will not work properly except in reality.
The totem in the dream is a projection, as such if your subconscious believes in the dream it will function counter to this logic.

Ultimately we are left with the question, when the top has not fallen: "Was Moll right?" If she was then Cobb has failed to reach the top level of being awake.

Every movie has a thematic question or statement as a backbone.
My best friend loves to point out that Pulp fiction is "Change or die." Everyone who makes a change in their life lives, everyone who keeps going as they have before dies. Travolta's character realizing this only when it becomes too late.
 
2010-07-19 2:38:41 PM  

MooseMuffin: Isn't the totem only able to tell you if you're in someone else's dream? Couldn't you be in your own dream and have your totem behave as expected?


This is why you aren't supposed to architect your own dreams. At least not w/o someone there to get you out. Cobb "breaks his own rules" often.
 
2010-07-19 2:40:29 PM  

moothemagiccow: Half the argument for Cobb being in a dream was made by Mal. You can't go home to your kids, all these mysterious forces are trying to get you, and you never get a scratch on you. He's a daring rebel doing dangerous espionage - doesn't that sound more like a dream to you than reality?


img835.imageshack.usView Full Size


TWO WEEKS.
 
2010-07-19 2:40:36 PM  
I don't want to bash the movie, it was entertaining - but definitely not worth the praise it is receiving. It is entertaining, but there are a plethora of plot holes in the film that are gaping. Not much creative use of CG, there are a few astounding parts but besides that it is just a standard suspense film. The "dream sequences" don't feel like a dream at all. They aren't very imaginative and far too detailed. The dream sequences in say Eternal Sunshine of the Spotted Mind made a lot more sense. They captured the essence of a dream. Hell even Nolan's earlier works did this infinitely better. They showed some short films and clips from Nolan's earlier works at Alamo one of which was similar to Inception and it was done better.

Characters were good.
Idea was good.
CG parts were cool.
Fairly decent pace.

Would have definitely been better had this been a series where Nolan could have spent more time on the different parts. Inception felt like they tried to cram everything into too little of time. Short of spoiling it this is the best I can come up with but my criticisms can be based off actual parts I feel could have been elaborated on or embellished. It felt conservative for a concept that is everything but that.
 
2010-07-19 2:42:07 PM  

robsul82: Remember, everybody, Troll of Trolls Armond White will most likely get into a blowout argument with Slashfilm during their podcast tonight at 9 EST about Inception.

/considering they're just going to end up redoing the review by themselves after what happens tonight, might as well get as many people listening to this trainwreck live


...I gotta listen to that. Link?
 
2010-07-19 2:42:45 PM  

MooseMuffin: Isn't the totem only able to tell you if you're in someone else's dream? Couldn't you be in your own dream and have your totem behave as expected?


Yeah,
The totem will seem real in your dream. There was a different architect at each dream level, so you should probably carry one just in case. But you could come out of the second level, into your own dream and your totem would work.

So the totem only tells you that you aren't in someone else's dream.
 
2010-07-19 2:42:57 PM  

HulkHands: MooseMuffin: Isn't the totem only able to tell you if you're in someone else's dream? Couldn't you be in your own dream and have your totem behave as expected?

This is why you aren't supposed to architect your own dreams. At least not w/o someone there to get you out. Cobb "breaks his own rules" often.


It makes the last shot irrelevant though. He could still be dreaming, regardless of if the top falls or not.
 
2010-07-19 2:43:10 PM  

the money is in the banana stand: CG parts were cool.


There was very little CG. The train is a semi with a train "cover" over it. The spinning room was a... spinning room. The exploding groceries were nitrous pumps filmed by several high-speed cameras.

Nolan wanted most of the effects to be "conventional." He used some CG to make these conventional effects a bit better, when he needed to.
 
2010-07-19 2:44:41 PM  

the money is in the banana stand: The "dream sequences" don't feel like a dream at all. They aren't very imaginative and far too detailed


They explained that the dreams must make sense for the mark to accept it and not have his subconscious freak out and try to kick THEM out.

Bloody William: ...I gotta listen to that. Link?


Armond White in Living Color, 9 PM EST (new window)
 
2010-07-19 2:46:16 PM  

DamnYankees: By the way, here's my meta-answer for why it was not all a dream:

"It's all a dream" is to the audience what "your world is not real" is to Mal.

Nolan implants this idea in us. He implants this notion that whatever we're watching is a dream. We are being trained to search for hints. Search for reasons to doubt the reality of what were watching. Christopher Nolan's movie is an act of inception on the audience. And more than that, like Cobb in the movie, he does it in such a way as to make us think it's *our* idea. We pride ourselves on finding clues, finding reasons. We think we've figured it out.

But just like Mal, the idea has grown too large. We are letting it gnaw at us even when we shouldn't. Just like Mal's world *was* real, so too was the movie's. But the inception makes her and us doubt that. But don't let that virus dominate you. Accept things as they are.


THIS. Great comment. I came in here to post something similar, but you stated it much more clearly than I likely would have.
 
2010-07-19 2:48:37 PM  

kicker_conspiracy: DamnYankees: By the way, here's my meta-answer for why it was not all a dream:

"It's all a dream" is to the audience what "your world is not real" is to Mal.

Nolan implants this idea in us. He implants this notion that whatever we're watching is a dream. We are being trained to search for hints. Search for reasons to doubt the reality of what were watching. Christopher Nolan's movie is an act of inception on the audience. And more than that, like Cobb in the movie, he does it in such a way as to make us think it's *our* idea. We pride ourselves on finding clues, finding reasons. We think we've figured it out.

But just like Mal, the idea has grown too large. We are letting it gnaw at us even when we shouldn't. Just like Mal's world *was* real, so too was the movie's. But the inception makes her and us doubt that. But don't let that virus dominate you. Accept things as they are.

THIS. Great comment. I came in here to post something similar, but you stated it much more clearly than I likely would have.


I think that, not really the construction of the movie itself, is the true genius of Inception. A 2-hour movie is having us discuss shiat almost as much as an entire season of LOST, and the arguments are far more coherent and backed up on either side and far less speculatory. Nolan has produced perhaps the ultimate ambiguous, thought-provoking pseudo-sci-fi film.
 
2010-07-19 2:52:10 PM  

robsul82: the money is in the banana stand: The "dream sequences" don't feel like a dream at all. They aren't very imaginative and far too detailed

They explained that the dreams must make sense for the mark to accept it and not have his subconscious freak out and try to kick THEM out.

Bloody William: ...I gotta listen to that. Link?

Armond White in Living Color, 9 PM EST (new window)


You can have dream make sense and still read more as dreams. Creating an alternate reality just isn't nearly as cool and it is confining. Basically, the movie is The Matrix without the action and better acting.
 
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