Skip to content
 
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Christian Science Monitor)   Muslims are disappointed by Obama. See, they really are just like everyone else   (csmonitor.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, Muslim world, Israeli-Palestinian, Muslim Population, nonproliferation, muslims, entrepreneurship, Muslim countries, muslim community  
•       •       •

859 clicks; posted to Politics » on 18 Jun 2010 at 1:40 AM (11 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



87 Comments     (+0 »)


Oldest | « | 1 | 2 | » | Newest | Show all

 
2010-06-17 10:20:05 PM  
Okay, I did laugh. DRTFA
 
2010-06-17 11:03:45 PM  
Sooo....he should be less sekrit and more more muslin?
 
2010-06-17 11:14:10 PM  
Just be patient. He'll transform into MegaObama soon, and then it's ponies for everyone!
 
2010-06-17 11:34:10 PM  
Buncha ingrates. Time to invade another one.
 
2010-06-18 1:47:09 AM  
There's also "disappointment" among Muslims about the US under Obama, Mr. Kohut says. Many have a perception, for example, that the US still "does not deal fairly" in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Hogwash. Poppycock. Balderdash.
 
2010-06-18 1:47:34 AM  
Everyone

douggeivett.files.wordpress.comView Full Size
 
2010-06-18 1:49:21 AM  
Support for Obama in Turkey fell by a third, from 33 to 23 percent, and on the whole, Turkey - a NATO ally - sees the US as a potential military threat.

Honest question: anyone know why Turkey has this view?
 
2010-06-18 1:49:50 AM  

AmazingRuss: Just be patient. He'll transform into MegaObama soon, and then it's ponies for everyone!


nerdcityonline.comView Full Size

"You expected ponies?!!? AHAHAHAHAHAHA!! You get only DEATH from MECHOBAMA!!"

 
2010-06-18 1:52:50 AM  
The moment Madeleine Albright started talking I knew it was going to be comedy gold. Then she actually had the audacity to talk about nuclear proliferation...

She would know a lot about how presidents handle nuclear proliferation, considering the president she worked for was an abject failure at preventing it.

1) Send the "genius" Jimmy Carter to cut a deal with the very trustworthy North Korea.

2) Cheer for yourselves when you secure an agreement from them in which they get what they want and you don't get to make sure of anything.

3) Act completely shocked when you discover North Korea lied to you.

4) Come out and actually try to say that you're sure that North Korea kept their end of the bargain while Clinton was still in office. Yes, that's right, from his sanctum in North Korea Kim Jung Il was watching the inauguration of Bush and once it was complete he ordered his country to resume nuclear weapon development.
 
2010-06-18 1:58:03 AM  
Good point!
 
2010-06-18 2:00:38 AM  

Car_Ramrod: Support for Obama in Turkey fell by a third, from 33 to 23 percent, and on the whole, Turkey - a NATO ally - sees the US as a potential military threat.

Honest question: anyone know why Turkey has this view?


I'm guessing it has to do with our relations with the Kurds and constantly favoring Israel over our military allies (Turkey).
 
2010-06-18 2:02:37 AM  
Zing! Nice one Subby!

/+1
 
2010-06-18 2:08:00 AM  

Car_Ramrod: Support for Obama in Turkey fell by a third, from 33 to 23 percent, and on the whole, Turkey - a NATO ally - sees the US as a potential military threat.

Honest question: anyone know why Turkey has this view?


Well, let's see, they just had an aid flotilla to Gaza get shot up by our number one client state (Israel), and they face constant cross-border raids by guerrillas from inside our number two client state (Iraq).

The US seems to be prone to getting unpredictably shooty in the neighborhood over terrorism and (arguably) oil, and Turkey often has to walk a fine line between supporting its NATO ally and "shiating where it eats." Turkey's accession to the EU is in limbo, and NATO is still looking for a reason to exist in the post-Soviet era. If I was Turkey I think I would probably have to question the pros and cons of my current international alignment from time to time.

That doesn't necessarily add up to the US being a likely military threat, but I'd say marking it as a potential threat isn't a frivolous assessment at least in terms of contingency planning.
 
2010-06-18 2:10:55 AM  

randomjsa: She would know a lot about how presidents handle nuclear proliferation, considering the president she worked for was an abject failure at preventing it.


Well thank God the Bush team came along to put a stop to all those shenanigans!
 
2010-06-18 2:11:27 AM  

randomjsa: The moment Madeleine Albright started talking I knew it was going to be comedy gold. Then she actually had the audacity to talk about nuclear proliferation...

She would know a lot about how presidents handle nuclear proliferation, considering the president she worked for was an abject failure at preventing it.

1) Send the "genius" Jimmy Carter to cut a deal with the very trustworthy North Korea.

2) Cheer for yourselves when you secure an agreement from them in which they get what they want and you don't get to make sure of anything.

3) Act completely shocked when you discover North Korea lied to you.

4) Come out and actually try to say that you're sure that North Korea kept their end of the bargain while Clinton was still in office. Yes, that's right, from his sanctum in North Korea Kim Jung Il was watching the inauguration of Bush and once it was complete he ordered his country to resume nuclear weapon development.


Yeah, stupid Carter getting North Korea back to the negotiating table, and stupid Albright getting concessions from them.

Thank God Bush fixed things when he got into power and cancelled the talks with North Korea, then referred to them as part of an "axis of evil" -- that really seemed to help.
 
2010-06-18 2:18:39 AM  
What do you mean "everyone"?
 
2010-06-18 2:19:51 AM  

Outshined_One: What do you mean "everyone"?


They're not counting the profoundly stupid.
 
2010-06-18 2:20:02 AM  

Outshined_One: What do you mean "everyone"?

 
2010-06-18 3:04:59 AM  

bigdavediode: Yeah, stupid Carter getting North Korea back to the negotiating table, and stupid Albright getting concessions from them.


Don't bother, you will never see that idiot post twice in the same thread. He is the literal definition of threadshiatter.
 
2010-06-18 3:05:07 AM  

RockIsDead: Outshined_One: What do you mean "everyone"?

They're not counting the profoundly stupid.


This thread lacks RockIsDead.
 
2010-06-18 3:09:31 AM  

Curse of the Goth Kids: Car_Ramrod: Support for Obama in Turkey fell by a third, from 33 to 23 percent, and on the whole, Turkey - a NATO ally - sees the US as a potential military threat.

Honest question: anyone know why Turkey has this view?

Well, let's see, they just had an aid flotilla to Gaza get shot up by our number one client state (Israel), and they face constant cross-border raids by guerrillas from inside our number two client state (Iraq).


This. My guess is that the drop in opinions from Turkey and Egypt are both direct results of the Israeli blockade massacre, and our half-arsed response to it. Considering that Obama is the first President in decades to even come close to getting tough on the Israelis, thats extremely unfortunate, but also likely to be short-lived.
 
2010-06-18 3:59:13 AM  
Pretty soon Obama will be getting free gas for life from BP for every living American. Including Muslims. Free! Free! Free!
 
2010-06-18 3:59:59 AM  
Let's link to the full study.
 
2010-06-18 4:25:28 AM  

Of the 22 countries surveyed, only in Pakistan is there widespread support for Iran obtaining nuclear weapons. About six-in-ten Pakistanis (58%) favor and just 10% oppose Iran acquiring such weapons. Support for a nuclear-armed Iran is even stronger among Lebanon's Shia population - 91% would favor it - but overwhelming majorities of Christians (88%) and Sunnis (88%) in that country would oppose it.


(http://pewglobal.org/2010/06/17/obama-more-popular-abroad-than-at-ho​me​/5/)

Oh, lovely. :P
 
2010-06-18 4:35:23 AM  
pewglobal.orgView Full Size


You know, if *Georgia* is your 'biggest enemy'... well, you probably don't have much to worry about. Sure, a lot of Georgians probably hate a lot of Russians, but there just aren't that many Georgians.
 
2010-06-18 4:54:17 AM  
trollcats.comView Full Size
 
2010-06-18 5:47:12 AM  

AmazingRuss: Just be patient. He'll transform into MegaObama soon, and then it's ponies for everyone!


img27.imageshack.usView Full Size


Not impressed.

/The president pilots a giant robot
 
2010-06-18 6:08:29 AM  
So they are catching on to the fact that he's not only continuing Bush's foreign policy when it comes to terror, but he's actually expending it and even more of a hawk in most regards, then
 
2010-06-18 6:20:08 AM  

Car_Ramrod: Honest question: anyone know why Turkey has this view?


Many factors, but the Kurds have had a very dim view of the United States for a long time, now, and a lot has to do with the creeping Islamisation of the country in the last years.

You have to remember, just a few years ago, the best selling book in Turkey was called Metal Storm and was about Condi and Rumsfeld ordering an invasion of Turkey by America. It ends with a nuclear bomb destroying Washington. That's the same year where the other best-selling book was Mein Kampf.

It's not a process that started under Bush, things have been going awry in Turkey ever since the early beginnings of the Clinton administration, and have taken a severe turn for the worst politically since Obama has taken power (not the fault of the Democrats either, just pointing out that this isn't a GOP/Dem issue).

Turkey right now is realigning itself with Syria and Iran in order to create some sort of regional hegemony over the rest of the Middle-East. The President, Edrogan, has very creepy ties to a lot of organizations that deal with terrorist organizations, including one that made headlines when they sent a boat with some of their activists to ambush Israeli soldiers.

I wouldn't be surprised if Turkey was kicked out of the NATO in the next 5 years or so.
 
2010-06-18 6:20:30 AM  

Tatsuma: continuing Bush's foreign policy when it comes to terror


What country is Obama going to invade?
 
2010-06-18 6:31:13 AM  

Wolf_Blitzer: My guess is that the drop in opinions from Turkey and Egypt are both direct results of the Israeli blockade massacre, and our half-arsed response to it.


I just love it when people who have no farking idea what's going on in the Middle-East feel the need to speak up and comment on it.

Especially when they feel the need to blame it on Israel.

America is much to precious to have screwed that one up herself, or it couldn't have pretty much anything to do with America, and much more to do with internal factors in Turkey.

Nope, has to be about Israel. And has to be something that happened in the last six months so ADD-addled minds can remember it before moving on.
 
2010-06-18 6:34:59 AM  

log_jammin: What country is Obama going to invade?


He doesn't need to invade more countries, he has sent US special ops troops and back-up forces in 75 countries to operate within, as well as expended drone attacks to the point where more occured in a single year of his administration than all of Bush's.

Hey, I don't think it's a bad thing personally, in fact I find most of his policies terror-wise to be quite well handled. I was afraid he'd be much softer on this front, and he turned out to be the perfect mix of affable looking yet kicking ass behind doors, so it's not a PR disaster.

Frankly, he gets an A+ for me on that, I don't think he could be doing much more than what he's doing right now.

Also, invading a country rarely has to do with fighting terrorism, Iraq was about Freedom and WMDs, not terrorism for the most part (and I also did not back that invasion)
 
2010-06-18 6:48:41 AM  

Tatsuma: Wolf_Blitzer: My guess is that the drop in opinions from Turkey and Egypt are both direct results of the Israeli blockade massacre, and our half-arsed response to it.

I just love it when people who have no farking idea what's going on in the Middle-East feel the need to speak up and comment on it.

Especially when they feel the need to blame it on Israel.

America is much to precious to have screwed that one up herself, or it couldn't have pretty much anything to do with America, and much more to do with internal factors in Turkey.

Nope, has to be about Israel. And has to be something that happened in the last six months so ADD-addled minds can remember it before moving on.


No matter what happens in the world, at least one American will criticize America for not involving themselves in it immediately. To attempt to dress down each one of them is like trying to get rid of an ant problem by crushing each ant with your thumb. Jus sayin
 
2010-06-18 7:03:46 AM  

Tatsuma: Also, invading a country rarely has to do with fighting terrorism


we had to fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here.
 
2010-06-18 7:28:33 AM  

log_jammin: we had to fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here.


While this particular one was wrong, some of the clichés bandied around by the Right after 9/11 did have some truth to it.

For example 'They hate us for our freedom' is pretty much spot on if (and only if) you preface it by saying that in this case, this is our freedom to be what they consider to be moral degenerates and that it's not the only reason.

They do see us as moral degenerates with the freedom to do whatever we want, and they do hate us for that. Just take Sayid Qutb, arguable the most important thinker of the Muslim Brotherhood, and whose vision shaped modern Islamic terrorism:

He visited America in 1948... and his conclusion was that Americans had too much individual freedoms, and were oversexualized materialistic airheads more interested in sports than culture or politics.

Oh, and that all American women were whores who dressed the part and that people were indecent to the point where they almost looked like they were having sex in public.

We're not talking at the height of hippie years, or today. We're talking about 19 friggin 48.

So, indeed, cliché sentences rarely encapsulate the whole truth, but in some cases they often reflect a part of truth, and that is that anti-American (and Western) Islamic hatred IS rooted in the fact that we have too much Freedom, that we don't dress our women in burqas and we're overly materialistic airheads.

There are other factors of course, but our very way of life is indeed seen as a problem that has to be destroyed by the extremists (mostly to keep their own people from emulating us)

Now if you'll excuse me, I DVRed the last episode of Burn Notice, so I have to go and spend the next 40 minutes not thinking while watching shiny cars, women in bikinis and stuff blow up. Oh, and Bruce Campbell

/fark you, Qutb.
 
2010-06-18 7:36:46 AM  
Bologna and spray cheese? Ok, I get it now

Allahu Ackbar, death to America.
 
2010-06-18 7:40:26 AM  

Tatsuma: For example 'They hate us for our freedom' is pretty much spot on if (and only if) you preface it by saying that in this case, this is our freedom to be what they consider to be moral degenerates and that it's not the only reason.


You'd need a second, somewhat related proviso. Not only was it not the only reason - it had nothing to do, in the end, with why the US actually got attacked. They (if by "they" we mean bin Laden and al-Qaeda) may well have hated the US for its "freedoms", but their casus belli (as per bin Laden's fatwas and the like) was something else entirely.
 
2010-06-18 7:43:42 AM  

Biological Ali: You'd need a second, somewhat related proviso. Not only was it not the only reason - it had nothing to do, in the end, with why the US actually got attacked. They (if by "they" we mean bin Laden and al-Qaeda) may well have hated the US for its "freedoms", but their casus belli (as per bin Laden's fatwas and the like) was something else entirely.


I am talking about hatred, not about the reasons why they attacked us. The hatred is part of it, but it's just an additional motivation, not their sole reason, or even the main one.

Plus, you know, we're talking about anti-American hatred in Turkey.
 
2010-06-18 7:50:34 AM  

Tatsuma: I am talking about hatred, not about the reasons why they attacked us. The hatred is part of it, but it's just an additional motivation, not their sole reason, or even the main one.


Maybe so, but unless the proviso is made clear, people will end up making this erroneous association for themselves.

Plus, you know, we're talking about anti-American hatred in Turkey.


I know, which is why you should've gone with something other than "They hate us for our freedoms", given that the statement was made to describe a very specific group of people.
 
2010-06-18 7:54:49 AM  

Tatsuma: Iraq was about Freedom and WMDs


Sad.
 
2010-06-18 7:58:45 AM  

Biological Ali: I know, which is why you should've gone with something other than "They hate us for our freedoms", given that the statement was made to describe a very specific group of people.


Well, when the Bush admin talked about how they hate our freedom, they were talking about terrorists.

Plus, you know, I opened with

Tatsuma: arguably the most important thinker of the Muslim Brotherhood, and whose vision shaped modern Islamic terrorism:


then

Tatsuma: anti-American (and Western) Islamic hatred


then

Tatsuma: the extremists (mostly to keep their own people from emulating us)


and nowhere did I say that this was the reason they attack us, and this was in the context of a discussion of Turkish anti-American hatred and the growth of Islamic extremism in Turkey.

I really didn't think anyone would be confused by this.
 
2010-06-18 7:59:45 AM  

Hetfield: Sad.


So it wasn't about finding WMDs and turning Iraq into a Democracy?

What was it about, then?
 
2010-06-18 8:08:59 AM  

Tatsuma: Plus, you know, we're talking about anti-American hatred in Turkey.


Also, I'm not sure why you'd be referencing Qutb in a discussion about anti-American hatred in Turkey.

Here's a fairly decent analysis, backed by public opinion polls:

Why Turks Feel Threatened by the US


They clearly don't like the US, but security concerns (real or perceived) appear to be just as plausible an explanation (if not more so), than some religious objection to moral degeneration. Garden-variety nationalist sentiment, fuelled by (real or perceived) associations between the US and Kurdish separatists are also a fairly plausible explanation.

Further, while they clearly dislike American culture, one can't exactly assume that they hate it (and further, that they hate it for some particular reason) without liberally jumping to conclusions.
 
2010-06-18 8:13:49 AM  

Tatsuma: I really didn't think anyone would be confused by this.


I doubt whether anyone's confused. I just like to make sure the blanks are properly filled in.
 
2010-06-18 8:19:02 AM  

Biological Ali: Also, I'm not sure why you'd be referencing Qutb in a discussion about anti-American hatred in Turkey.


I'm not sure how we can not reference Qutb in a discussion about modern Islamic Hatred of America, frankly. This is like discussing the Communism in the 80s in Russia without mentioning Marx.

Their respective visions were the root, and still at the core, of the problems then.

Biological Ali: They clearly don't like the US, but security concerns (real or perceived) appear to be just as plausible an explanation (if not more so), than some religious objection to moral degeneration. Garden-variety nationalist sentiment, fuelled by (real or perceived) associations between the US and Kurdish separatists are also a fairly plausible explanation.


... which is why I stated that this was, by no means, the only reason why Islamic extremists hate America, and thus feed anti-American propaganda to their fellow citizens.

They know that secular Turks won't buy into the 'American women are whores and American men are vapid materialistic dumbasses who watch to much television, destroy their culture' since, you know, they are secular and aspire to be more Westernized, and less Saudi Arabized.

On the other hand, they can use other reasons to incite anti-American hatred, and use the growing wave of Islamization in Turkey to indoctrinate those who are becoming more religious to hate American culture.

Biological Ali: Further, while they clearly dislike American culture, one can't exactly assume that they hate it (and further, that they hate it for some particular reason) without liberally jumping to conclusions.


I don't think it's jumping to conclusion when every single Islamic authority decries it, and it's mention by terrorist thinkers and those who back their ideology, and they all mention it as an unislamic scourge that must be destroyed.

As I said, only one of the reasons why the extremists hate us (and the West). Bringing this up was partly because I went on a tangent based on that slogan (and read about two books worth of Qutb material in the last two weeks and feel like beheading something), and partly because I wanted to point out that Anti-American hatred doesn't have to be only rooted in what happened since Bush won the 2000 election/durp durp Israel, but that it's rooted in an extremist Islamic worldview that has been around for much longer, and started to hate America for much different reasons.
 
2010-06-18 8:26:21 AM  

Biological Ali: I doubt whether anyone's confused. I just like to make sure the blanks are properly filled in.


If you could sneak over the border, and then in a taliban stronghold, and make sure the blanks are properly filled in the 'real ammo' boxes before their next attack on American troops, that'd be swell. Especially if you could notify the troops in advance, so they can have the Roadrunner theme playing over loudspeakers as walk in their ambush.

I'll give you my 'Hand in Glove' first pressing EP if you can pull that off. And a 'free hug from Morrissey' coupon.

/just really liked the 'blanks properly filled in' expression
//Oh, and what we discussed the other day ISI ties to the Taliban
 
2010-06-18 8:28:04 AM  
I would like to apologize for the previous post.

The Benny Hill theme would obviously be much more appropriate.
 
2010-06-18 8:36:10 AM  

Tatsuma: I don't think it's jumping to conclusion when every single Islamic authority decries it[1], and it's mention by terrorist thinkers and those who back their ideology, and they all mention it as an unislamic scourge that must be destroyed.

As I said, only one of the reasons why the extremists hate us (and the West). Bringing this up was partly because I went on a tangent based on that slogan (and read about two books worth of Qutb material in the last two weeks and feel like beheading something), and partly because I wanted to point out that Anti-American hatred doesn't have to be only rooted in what happened since Bush won the 2000 election/durp durp Israel, but that it's rooted in an extremist Islamic worldview that has been around for much longer [2], and started to hate America for much different reasons.


1 - As far as "authorities" go, Islam has been by far the most fragmented of the three major monotheisms since the disbanding of the Caliphate. Aside from the "major schools of thought", you've got local religious scholars, mosque imams, and (in some countries), state-sponsored religious institutions, each of which have a varying level of influence from country to country and between people within countries. Not all of them explicitly condemn the West "for its freedoms", and of those that do, not all of them do it with the same intensity.

2 - Fair enough, but as per just about every single relevant public opinion survey I have consulted, this would explain only a tiny sliver of the opposition that Muslims in general have to the West. Of course, it may well explain the hatred that certain extremists may have (and again, only a part of that), but bringing this up is hardly suitable for discussion of general attitudes in a place like Turkey.
 
2010-06-18 8:37:20 AM  
Well, what did we expect? Obama was great at convincing people he was going to change world view, make everything better and hand out free candy.

Yeah...well....back to reality. It doesn't matter if Obama or Bush or Carter is president. The rest of the world harbors angers at the United States. That's just how it is. When you are the world's only super power, there is nothing to do but accept that.

This will never change. Unless we aren't #1, this is always how it will be. If you think different and want to start holding hands with other countries, then by all means, go ahead. Just don't expect them to not drive a car bomb down into your market.

/don't like Obama, didn't like Bush.
//don't really care, they will hate us anyway.
 
2010-06-18 8:41:37 AM  

Biological Ali: 1 - As far as "authorities" go, Islam has been by far the most fragmented of the three major monotheisms since the disbanding of the Caliphate. Aside from the "major schools of thought", you've got local religious scholars, mosque imams, and (in some countries), state-sponsored religious institutions, each of which have a varying level of influence from country to country and between people within countries. Not all of them explicitly condemn the West "for its freedoms", and of those that do, not all of them do it with the same intensity.


That is probably what I should have been more clear about.

When I am speaking about Islamic extremists, I am talking about the Wahhabi-influenced (or downright Salafist) Sunni strands, as well as their Shia counterparts.

Thus the reference to Saudi Arabization of Turkey.

They are the ones I see as extremists, I don't mean to include the just as pious but not as 'let's kill everyone who disagrees with us' mindset-wise.

Biological Ali: 2 - Fair enough, but as per just about every single relevant public opinion survey I have consulted, this would explain only a tiny sliver of the opposition that Muslims in general have to the West. Of course, it may well explain the hatred that certain extremists may have (and again, only a part of that), but bringing this up is hardly suitable for discussion of general attitudes in a place like Turkey.


Of course, and this is why I took great care to mention terrorists and extremists in that post, and again the main point was showing that anti-American hatred in Islamist thought goes back much further than 2000, or is not only related to Israel. In fact, Israel is a good rallying call but if ch"vs Israel disappeared tomorrow, they'd hate America just as much.

there's a reason why Israel is just the little Satan and America is the big Satan (Number one! Number one! fark YEAH!)
 
Displayed 50 of 87 comments


Oldest | « | 1 | 2 | » | Newest | Show all



This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking




On Twitter


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.