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((The AntiTrust)   For those who have seen Matrix: Reloaded, here is the dialog between Neo & The Architect (spoilers)   ( divider line
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30320 clicks; posted to Main » and Entertainment » on 22 May 2003 at 6:23 PM (19 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook

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2003-05-22 1:13:11 PM  
Anyone out there ever read Isaac Azimov's "The City and the stars" ?

Anyone else see any parallels with that story and the matrix?

or is it just me?
2003-05-22 1:18:32 PM  
Sorry, but I have to say this one more time... The Architect's speech is mostly irrelevant. He's a full-of-crap salesman. He's sitting there with a pen saying, "Sign here! Listen to me! Kill everybody in Zion! It's what you were meant to do!"

The only thing everybody's actually figured out is that Persephone is the Mother, not The Oracle. But the way The Architect says, "Please!" when Neo suggests The Oracle makes that obvious. It doesn't have to be Persephone, though. That whole kissing thing means they definitely want you to believe that she's a program trying to study humans, but for all we know it could be Trinity (although that's somewhat unlikely as it would screw up the love story and really piss people off).

The Architect is a program. He's 100% computer. He's the MCP a la Tron. Corporate Mofo is trying entirely too hard to draw the plot out of its clever religious metaphors, but they really hit the nail on the head in a few places, particularly:

Understanding why things are the way they are requires an understanding of another holy text: Asimov's Laws of Robotics. The machines, as demonstrated by Smith's need to try to kill Neo even after being "freed," don't have free will. ... The bit about the machines needing human bio-energy to survive, as Morpheus (the dreamer) explained in the first movie, is bullshiat. The machines keep humanity alive but imprisoned, even after taking over the world, because they were created to serve people. In other words, the machines would like to destroy humanity, but they CAN'T. Instead, they need a human to make the choice.

Programs can't kill people. They're not allowed to. They can justify killing someone in The Matrix, because they're not really killing them; they're fooling the mind so that the person is killed by their own mind. But Zion is unplugged. The only way the machines can destoy Zion is by getting a human to do it for them. Therefore, it is The Architect's sole purpose to lie to The One and get him to kill Zion.

I mean, come on! The machines would just kill everybody and build a few nuclear reactors if they could! They don't need people for energy. If that ends up being true at the end of Revolutions, I'm going to go up to Larry and Andy myself and demand all my money back.

Everybody loves the scene where Neo stops the Sentinels in real life. Neo stopped the Sentinels, but he's not in The Matrix, so there have to be many Matrices, one on top of the other! That's what they want you to believe, but it's a little too obvious, isn't it?

There is no Over Matrix, just The Matrix. Smith has new powers over humans because he is linked to Neo. That was explained fairly well, although Smith admits he doesn't understand it himself. This also means that Neo has new powers over machines because he is linked to Smith.

If there was an Over Matrix, the machines wouldn't even have to hassle with Zion, because they would control the Over Matrix. They would only have to make a few Agents appear in Zion. And, if there was an Over Matrix, then how can you explain The Architect noodling around to try and get Neo to give up Zion? Asimov's Laws only control machines in the real world.

Most of the confusion and needless speculation I'm seeing is coming from people assuming The Architect is telling the truth. The Architect wants Neo to think he's a program and his purpose is to destroy Zion, which goes against everything else in the movie. Why believe him? Just because Morpheus is doubting the Prophecy doesn't mean all you suckers have to.

Hell, maybe The Oracle is the Mother. Just because The Architect tried to deny it doesn't mean she's not.
2003-05-22 1:52:02 PM  
Whoa Groovy.
2003-05-22 2:04:24 PM  
ug, my head hurts after reading that, BBM.

i really liked the fight scenes!

neo smash!
2003-05-22 2:08:06 PM  
BadBatsuMaru You just said everything i've been telling my friends for the last week. EVERYONE and their mother goes "ooh, multiple matrixes!" and its far too obvious and stupid.
For Revolutions I am predicting that the Matrix is destroyed (since they said that it would be if he did what he did) and Neo is still linked to the computers through agent Smith. Then there will be a scene where Neo and Smith beging fighting for control. Since they are both linked they each have the ability to control the machines. there is a big battle scene between the machines and its over.
Oh, but there will of course be some thing that makes you go "Oh well its over, or is it?" Cue the twilight zone music and fade to credits. lol.
2003-05-22 2:13:56 PM  
Neo, puh-leeze!
2003-05-22 2:23:49 PM  
The 1940 Laws of Robotics:

1. A robot may not injure a human being, or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.

2. A robot must obey the orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.

3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

Of course, the second one is open to interpretation. A robot can't simply listen to any human being, because it will get conflicting information. I doubt Neo could just say, "Cut it out!" and The Architect would say, "Oh, sorry."

There has to be someone in charge. They may not even know they're in charge. I mean, if there was a human bad guy behind The Architect, the machines wouldn't need Neo to give up Zion. If there was a human good guy that had control of the machines, he would have to be unaware of the fact, or else he would've stopped them already.

The other option is that the Chancellor has the power to shut down the machines, but he's conflicted, because he thinks the people and the machines both depend on each other too much (as per the scene with Neo that made him look like a bad guy).

(excuse the cross-post in the current Matrix thread)

Maybe the machines aren't bound by the Laws of Robotics, but it makes at least as much sense as believing The Architect. His explanation of why he needs Neo's help is entirely too bogus, and certainly not an adequate explanation for why he needs Neo. He says:

The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

The ironic part is that The Architect then says:

However, the relevant issue is whether or not you are ready to accept the responsibility for the death of every human being in this world.

Which is probably exactly what he's going for... He wants Neo to accept the responsibility for the death of every human being.
2003-05-22 2:26:33 PM  
Yeah, I agree with the in-depth post by BadBatsuMaru. The one thing I remember watching that scene was that The Oracle couldn't be the Mother, but I couldn't figure out who it was. Reading that, it's clear that it's Persephone.

You argument abotu Smith and Neo being linked is interesting, but I'm gonna have to see the movie again before I buy into it.

Actually, my biggest problem reading that script wasn't all the $2 words in it, it was the fact that every time I read one of Neo's 2 word answers, my eyes saw the word "Neo" but my brain registered:
[image from too old to be available]
I think I need to take a nap.
2003-05-22 2:31:03 PM  
Very interesting. while i doubt the machines are bound by the second rule and i think their sole purpose is the third rule; they probably follow the first one. Without even knowing it perhaps. Maybe its part of their BIOS (or whatever it has become in their time).
Your theory about the chancellor is very interesting. There was that whole scene where he talks about machines and humans depending on eachother, maybe he has the knowledge to stop the machines but doesnt want to.

Its possible (but i hope its not true) that the movie is going to have some philosophical ending, demonstrating how humans and machines (IE: animals, life, etc.) should nurture and live in harmony. :puke:
2003-05-22 2:36:09 PM  
Calcartman is right on with what Revolutions is setting up. If you look real closely at still frames from the Revolutions trailer, it seems like when Neo and Agent Smith fight in the rain, there are other Agent Smiths lining the street and staring out from windows. If Agent Smith says "Fark it" and starts copying onto all the humans in the Matrix, it would set up the final fight quite well. Then again, watching the Architect get pissed and shoot some of the TVs in a drunken rage might be cool too.
2003-05-22 2:38:30 PM  
Pushing is the answer.

Pushing will protect you from the terrible secret of space.
2003-05-22 2:44:15 PM  

What about the Zeroth law?

0. A robot may not injure humanity, or, through inaction, allow humanity to come to harm.
2003-05-22 2:45:13 PM  
[image from too old to be available]

So, if the machines are bound by Asimov's laws, what about Sentinels? Am I missing something obvious?
2003-05-22 2:46:15 PM  
Furthermore, watch The Animatrix. In the Second Renaissance, machines are obviously slaughtering people.
2003-05-22 2:50:48 PM  
Yeah, he added law 0 in 1950, which seems a little vague. No matter how you look at it, they're certainly not paying attention to the spirit of the law and being nice to people :)
2003-05-22 2:50:52 PM  
1. A robot may not injure a human being, or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.

In "The Second Renaissance, Pt 1" episode of the Animatrix, a robot goes on trial for murdering a human. Does this invalidate rule #1?

Correct me if I'm wrong.
2003-05-22 2:51:49 PM  
I agree Neo and Smith will exhibit control beyond previous parameters. I think the Architect's info about disseminating Neo's programs to release the Prime program is a key that he holds power over more than he suspects.
2003-05-22 2:52:24 PM  
When did a Sentinel kill a person? We've only actually seen machines directly killing people in The Animatrix. Just because the Wachowski bros. collaborated on The Animatrix doesn't mean that the nine cartoons must stay in line with actual films. There's some completely ridiculous stuff in there, and things that are obviously inaccurate and trying to be cute.
2003-05-22 2:55:24 PM  
Ok, well in the movie, Sentinels (and their bomb) blew up that one ship, didn't they? (I forget which it was..but it was the reason Trinity had to go in)
2003-05-22 2:55:56 PM  
In reloaded, a few sentinals threw that "bomb" at one of the hovercrafts, and it blew up the ship and the people in it.
2003-05-22 2:56:42 PM  
lol....quit it, Wldncrzy!
2003-05-22 2:58:45 PM  
2003-05-22 3:02:10 PM  
Thanks! I needed this... I went to see the movie on Fri. night and (like an idiot) forgot to shut off my phone. But as a weak defense - I'd only had it 2 days and only 2 people had the number, one of whom was at the movie w/ me. About 20 mins. into the movie I remembered it was on, but figured the chances of the one other person calling were infinitesimal, so I didn't think too much about it. Then I heard a weird chime-noise that seemed a little out of place around the beginning of the Architect scene and realized what it was. I was so busy trying to disappear into my seat and being convinced that the whole audience was going to rise up and kick my ass that I missed out on half the scene, and when I started paying attention again I realized I had probably missed out on on something important. So, long story short... or long, I guess... Thanks to whoever posted this. And yes, I'll turn the stupid ringer off next time. :P
2003-05-22 3:02:32 PM  
I thought the only bomb that killed people was the EMP thingy that was triggered by our unknown human saboteur.

Oh well, maybe me theory's just screwed :)
2003-05-22 3:07:59 PM  
2003-05-22 3:12:23 PM  
While I don't believe that there are Matrixes upon Matrixes, I believe that each new version of the Matrix (as, if we are to believe the Architect, Neo is living in the 6th generation) cannibalizes the arhitecture of the last version.

The effect that this has is like peeling layers off of an onion. To get to the very core of the matrix, you, in effect, must become unplugged from each version. If you were born into version 6, you'll think that version 5 is the "Real".

I don't think that Neo has "power over machines." I think Neo is simply a savant at dynamic code manipulation. His abilities in the Matrix(6) are representative of his ease at bypassing simple rule structures in the world. To suggest that in the real world Neo has some sort of magical power is beyond the scope of the movie -- the whole sequence plays out for the purpose of making you question the reality of the "Real."

The Architect is hard-pressed to remove anamolies like Neo from the Matrix as he would have to try to isolate and breed out the traight that gives humans the occasional natural understanding of high-order mathematics and language structure. I doubt that such a thing could be bred out easily, as by its very nature the trait is rare, and therefore very difficult to observe under controlled conditions.

BBM: While I appreciate you drawing conclusions to Asimov's laws (it certainly gives a good explanation as to why the machines need to keep the humans alive), I don't think that overrides the potential for the Real to not be Real in the sense that we understand it. As Poe said: Is all that we see or seem, But a dream within a dream?
2003-05-22 3:14:55 PM  
Okay, BadBatsuMaru seriously needs to get laid. Talk about still no cure for cancer yet.

Jus' kiddin' dude, but lighten up.

2003-05-22 3:29:59 PM  
I'm certainly not saying the Asimov thing isn't without its flaws. I just don't think it's nearly as ridiculous as believing that machines actually think it's worth the trouble to keep people alive to work as batteries.

I mean, we've already got three Terminator movies that are entirely based on people forgetting to add safeguards into machines to get them to obey Asimov's laws.

And there are plenty other people who need to get laid in the big matrix thread.
2003-05-22 3:54:02 PM  
The Robot Law stuff is fine and interesting but I think its a set of rules that are outside information, and while potentially intersting, are not included in the world of the Matrix. The machines in the world of the Matrix, view themselves as superior to humanity in all respects, they avoid killing humans in so much as some humans avoid killing spiders or lady bugs. They are certain they are bigger and smarter than we are so whats the point of wasting the potential electrical output? Why would they dump humans who reject the system down the sewer rather than liquify them for their biomass. Like the Borg they are not threatened by us outside of the Matrix. So I think the notion that the machines follow Asimovs rules will not lead to a predition of the outcome of the film.

That is not to say that I do not think the potentional Blue Screen of the Matrix will lie in the of Rules that these machines are run by, Logic and Reason.
2003-05-22 4:14:12 PM  
The robot laws only apply if the programmer added them to the robot.
2003-05-22 4:32:53 PM  
I thought the EMP disabled the Zionist ships, and the machines destroyed them (and the people in them). I didn't think the EMP destroyed the ships themselves, because that's not how EMP works, at least as far as I know. I thought EMP just fried electronics that were on. Anything that's off (or alive, for that matter) is fine.

I mean, if EMP killed ships, wouldn't the Kebbercannotspellyer have toasted itself in the first movie? All they did was turn stuff off, and they lived to fight another day.
2003-05-22 5:29:13 PM  
Regarding the question of who is the mother of the Matrix.

Before I read this thread I had just suggested to my coworker that Persephone must be the mother. We know she's a very old program and she seems very interested in human emotions. And of course, this piece of dialog:

The Architect: intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

Neo: The Oracle.

The Architect: Please!
But my coworker made an interesting point. I thought the Architect's reaction was along the lines of "Please, you stupid, fleshy human. You've met one sage-like female program so you assume she's the one I'm talking about." But my coworker thought the Architect was scoffing at the fact that Neo (and all humans) refer to the program as "The Oracle". After all, when the Architect was working with her she might have been known as "Human Psyche Investigator v3.54a".

Any other thoughts on this?
2003-05-22 6:07:13 PM  
You must admit, though, that The Oracle doesn't seem to be doing much investigating. She's hanging around deserted places with no people. Persephone, on the other hand, is married to a caustic socialite, which is a pretty good environment for studying people. And of course there's that whole Neo kissy thing.

There are plenty of good reasons you could say it was Persephone, The Oracle or Trinity. I'd still say it's probably Persephone, though, unless they want the third one to be completely lame, then they'll be trapped inside many levels of the Matrix and Trinity will be a program.
2003-05-22 6:28:42 PM  
The Matrix? Is that thing still around? And people still care about it?

And will it work in the courtroom?
2003-05-22 6:34:16 PM  
here's my theory:

Its all just pseudo-scientific pyscho-babble held together by fight scenes and special effects...
2003-05-22 6:38:30 PM  

2003-05-22 6:38:48 PM  
How could it possibly be Trinity? She's human...
2003-05-22 6:40:20 PM  
Eh, two matrices. The earth one, then the Zion one. The "Mother" figured out that as long as folks thought they had a choice, they'd stay predictable, so your choices are between the "nice" matrix and the harsh and rebellious Zion version. Up until now, no one had glommed onto the fact that there was a 3rd choice.

Neo isn't in a coma. He's awake in the real world for the first time.

(But honestly, the odds of that being right are about 1-in-100. It's too "deep" for Hollywood, and might interfere with having more cool fight scenes. So it'll probably just turn out that the Architect was bluffing or at least exaggerating the danger and there's still time to save the Matrix from being destroyed.)
2003-05-22 6:40:45 PM  
burden to sedulously avoid...

Sedulously? I swear I heard "assiduously." Either works, though.
2003-05-22 6:43:12 PM  
You mean Neo says things other than "Dude" and "Far out" and "Surfs up"???
2003-05-22 6:43:28 PM  
i honestly hope im not the only one out there who has read The Trial by Franz Kafka. because...that dialogue seems reeeally similare to kafkas madcrazy writing.

it gives you a headache if you try to make sense of it. so just sit back and enjoy, youll probably get the drift.

i havent even seen the movie, but this dialogue seems pretty damned impressive to me. although...i shudder to think that this is the only mentally stimulating aspect of the film...i hear theres a lot of fighting. a lot. which saddens me, because this movie and concept have so much more potential to make people scratch their heads and go "wha?" like 'vanilla sky' (or the much better original 'open yr eyes') but i must remember that the general public doesnt like to go to the movies to think, they go to be entertained.

and so again, i ...have made a completly useless post.

but please, someone tell me theyve read kafka. please? ...
2003-05-22 6:44:52 PM  
Would it screw up the story line if the Architect was indeed a MCP while the human brains are the actual CPU and storage (a battery)? And all the myths and symbolism is just a good 'ol human brains at work and not machines at all. Natually, the MCP might come to resent being a baby sitter for all those brains.
2003-05-22 6:46:06 PM  
More than one Matrix? No, there is only one Matrix. Just so you know, Zion is part of the Matrix. It is part of the control system; those 0.1% that won't accept the Matrix are free from it, though still a part of it.

How else could Agent Smith exist in Zion? How could Neo destroy a sentinal in the real world with his mind? I wonder if his choice will help him wake up in the real real world.
2003-05-22 6:46:32 PM  
Wow.. and I thought I was a sci-fi nerd for discussing the physics of The Ringworld...

I'm not big on Asimov.. but does it say anywhere that sentient robots cannot override their own programming (therefore overriding rule 0)? I think it's quite clear the machines are capable of killing people.. they refer to us as 'only human' and are hell bent on destroying us.
2003-05-22 6:46:38 PM  
Jarrett, I thought the same thing as your friend when I first saw the movie... but after the second time through I am beginning to believe the mother is Persephone.

Anywho, just thought I would voice support...
2003-05-22 6:46:44 PM  
All I want to know is how they can justify killing that one security guard who's just sitting there reading the newspaper.
2003-05-22 6:46:46 PM  
Just take Neo and throw him into the fires of Mount Doom and lets be done with it!!
2003-05-22 6:46:57 PM  
I'm just an apathetic agnostic.

"I don't know. And I don't care."
2003-05-22 6:47:07 PM  
Would it screw up the storyline if at the end of "Matrix: Revolutions" it shows Neo wake up at his desk, wiping drool from his face say "That was one hell of a dream."
2003-05-22 6:48:21 PM  
The Rocky IV way to start the next movie would be that Neo would wake up in an asylum, or jailed by Homeland Security for blowing up stuff.

I love the fact that the Matrix replicates society "at the peak of your civilization." That would be right before Bush got into office.
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