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(Oregon Live)   Tenured Econ Prof confronts FBI Informant for creating a cabal of students on campus oriented toward violence. Professor is suspended with pay and everybody lawyers up. Then things get weird   (oregonlive.com) divider line
    More: Weird, Mr. Gibbs, FBI, Ian Fleming, East Germany, The Oregonian, international organizations, campus police, KSM  
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17913 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 Feb 2010 at 10:57 PM (11 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2010-02-07 1:35:10 AM  

Tawnos: UnspokenVoice: Tawnos: You know what doesn't belong on campus?

LOL I was hoping we'd nullified the idiocy but then you had to go and do that. Welcome to my favorite's list. I'd offer you a beer but the last one I poured onto the DSL box didn't really work out so well.

'sokay, I have my own supply here. Hard stuff tonight - woodford reserve bourbon right now. Enjoy your back-n-forth, I like to parody such thoughts but substitute other rights we often take for granted, but now it's time for some MW2.


Enjoy. I'm not a gamer oddly. OPB Nut Brown Ale tonight. I'm pretty sure it is a gift from the FSM or what have you but damn it is good beer.
 
2010-02-07 1:35:20 AM  

srhp29: CaptainFatass: The guy was trying to convince students to make Molotov cocktails and buy illegal weapons. They went with their concerns to the professor

Really? Did the students know their "ECON" teacher had experience with Govt informants? Do you really think your teacher is who you should go to if you really think someone might be dangerous to society? Really? An Econ Professor?

Pull your hat down further, seriously.


So...you're siding with the guy who tried to incite violence on campus, and tried to broker a deal to sell illegal firearms, and has been accused o being a covert government informants? Wow, do YOU come down on the wrong side of things.
 
2010-02-07 1:36:12 AM  

TheyCallThisWork: Beyond "just because," why would you bring a gun to school? It takes significantly less effort to just leave it under your pillow, so why go out of your way?


Oooh, Oooh, I got this one!

Because schools are where the crazy-but-surprisingly-clear-thinking people go when they want to have a murder spree with maximum body count.

The guy that killed four cops in Lakewood, WA had a plan, and that was: kill some cops at their usual cop hangout where they are absorbed in filling out their paperwork, then move onto other easy targets, like a school, then shooting people at an intersection. So says his family and acquaintances who he told this plan to. If one of the cops hadn't managed to tag him with a bullet before dying and slow him down, this crazy-but-surprisingly-clear-thinking spree murderer would have killed a lot more.

Schools are not a place that have a equal possibility of spree murderers arriving to cause mayhem as any other arbitrary place in the country. Thanks to the utter uselessness of school gun bans (considering other gun ownership restriction provisions already disqualify the under-21, the criminal and the drug users), these locations attract spree murderers. The wide media coverage of the horror of a school massacre just encourages the next crazy bastard, who hopes his name will go down as having exceeded the body count of Klebold and Harris. It's been 11 years, and I wasn't even in the country at the time: you know why I still know their names. That's the infamy the next spree murderer is looking for.

Look at the history of all the spree murders in the past twenty years, there's one common factor: they all stop as soon as one person starts shooting back. I won't say that it turns out well for that one, but overall it certainly turns out better for innocent population as a whole. You're in big trouble if the nearest person who can shoot back is a cop. A lot of unopposed murder can happen in the fifteen minutes it takes for him to get dispatched, on-site, oriented and waddle forward with the bat-belt a typical cop wears. (Honestly, these guys need better load bearing gear.)

For someone that has made a well-thought out decision to carry a concealed weapon, I don't "bring a gun to school", or "bring a gun to the super market" or any other inflammatory accusation you'd like to make. I just carry a gun, with no more emotional overtones than I wear socks. I don't make a big production out of "strapping on heat", I just get dressed, and that includes a .45 caliber handgun in a IWB holster.
 
2010-02-07 1:40:25 AM  

CaptainFatass: So...you're siding with the guy who tried to incite violence on campus


Where in the article did it say he was telling people to get violent. Some people are fascinated with bombs and guns...It said he told them how to make a molitov cocktail. It doesn't say he told them they should make one and use it to kill anyone, does it?

Do you really think the best course of action if you really think someone is capable of going apeshiat violent to confront them in a classroom full of people...especially if you know they often carry a weapon?

Sorry, but to me this sounds more like nutty professor reading too much into it than it does this guy was an FBI Informant out to get people to kill others.

If that makes me a CIA Schill...well I guess the bloody sock fits.
 
2010-02-07 1:40:43 AM  

Bitter Barn: Is it Zaki Bucharest?

Link (new window)


nice find... looks like a typical right-wing nut.
 
2010-02-07 1:44:33 AM  
tfwiki.netView Full Size


Sounds suspicious
 
2010-02-07 1:47:25 AM  

srhp29: CaptainFatass: So...you're siding with the guy who tried to incite violence on campus

Where in the article did it say he was telling people to get violent. Some people are fascinated with bombs and guns...It said he told them how to make a molitov cocktail. It doesn't say he told them they should make one and use it to kill anyone, does it?

Do you really think the best course of action if you really think someone is capable of going apeshiat violent to confront them in a classroom full of people...especially if you know they often carry a weapon?

Sorry, but to me this sounds more like nutty professor reading too much into it than it does this guy was an FBI Informant out to get people to kill others.

If that makes me a CIA Schill...well I guess the bloody sock fits.


Yeah, it makes you...something, alright. Look, if you think instructing students how to make Molotov cocktails and trying to sell them illegal weapons is appropriate campus behavior (hell, if you think that's appropriate behavior ANYWHERE-then you're farked.
 
2010-02-07 1:51:12 AM  

Ganthiel: Fully-automatic weapons are legal in Oregon - you can buy them at gun shops there. They are illegal in Washington - period.


Uh.. nope. Fully automatic is illegal here too.
 
2010-02-07 1:51:31 AM  

plausdeny: For someone that has made a well-thought out decision to carry a concealed weapon, I don't "bring a gun to school", or "bring a gun to the super market" or any other inflammatory accusation you'd like to make. I just carry a gun, with no more emotional overtones than I wear socks. I don't make a big production out of "strapping on heat", I just get dressed, and that includes a .45 caliber handgun in a IWB holster.


This!

/Only mine is a wittle bitty Beretta Tomcat :D
 
2010-02-07 1:51:42 AM  

Ganthiel: This part jumped out at me:

Dreier said Bucharest also offered to act as a middleman to help students buy military style rifles -- AR-15s or AK-47s -- through a gun dealer he knew in Washington and that he had access to machine guns.

Fully-automatic weapons are legal in Oregon - you can buy them at gun shops there. They are illegal in Washington - period.

Offering to help a bunch of Oregonians buy machine guns from a dealer in Washington is roughly like telling your friends who live in Las Vegas that you know of this awesome underground poker room in Utah.


I don't know where you get your information. It is unlawful to knowingly possess a machine gun, short-barreled rifle, or short-barreled shotgun, unless the firearm is registered as required under Federal law.
 
2010-02-07 1:52:13 AM  
500 bucks says he also believes bush "lied about WMD intelligence"
 
2010-02-07 1:55:03 AM  
Then things get weird

Subby wins Oscar for understatement
 
2010-02-07 2:00:54 AM  
Most of the articles "sources" is from the screwball professor and from one student who was interviewed multiple times, giving more outlandish details in each interview.

Kinda curious if we'll see any followup on this and what the truth actually is.
 
2010-02-07 2:03:03 AM  

strathmeyer: SuperCatBarf: I'm 40, in college, and I have no interaction outside of class with any fellow students--and I've never seen a moment when it might be nice to offer fellow students deals on guns or info on how to make Molotov Cocktails.

Their called "parties". Sometimes alcohol is served. Go to one.

Why are you guys giving any credibility to someone who is crazy and making things up?


As an "old guy" I never get invited to these "parties" you speak of. That said, if I went to one and some guy was offering instruction on making incendiaries and deals on weapons, I'd report it.

As an aside, you need to update your profile and keep your personal info more private.
 
2010-02-07 2:09:34 AM  

Arthur Jumbles: FloydA: That's disturbing.

From the sound of it, the prof mishandled the situation dreadfully. If he was concerned for students' (or his own) safety, he should have gone to the cops.

If the student was really bringing concealed firearms to campus and talking to others about Molotov cocktails and automatic weapons, then he was a legitimate threat. Even if it was just "tough guy" BS, it merits investigation.

I doubt that the student was an FBI informant; probably just some crazy, but crazies are dangerous.

There were many cases in the 60s of the FBI and local police departments sending in undercover agents to infiltrate student groups and try to influence them to commit acts of violence so they could be arrested. If the professor truly believed the student was an undercover agent then going through the proper chain of command would have been useless..... by going public in front of a large group of people he virtually assured that the guy's cover was blown.

Sure, he might have harmed his career if he's proved wrong but he did it in a non-violent way and no one will suffer except himself. Wish we had more people who were willing to make self-sacrfices for personal freedom and liberty.


Agent provocateur.
 
2010-02-07 2:19:06 AM  

srhp29: CaptainFatass: So...you're siding with the guy who tried to incite violence on campus

Where in the article did it say he was telling people to get violent. Some people are fascinated with bombs and guns...It said he told them how to make a molitov cocktail. It doesn't say he told them they should make one and use it to kill anyone, does it?

Do you really think the best course of action if you really think someone is capable of going apeshiat violent to confront them in a classroom full of people...especially if you know they often carry a weapon?

Sorry, but to me this sounds more like nutty professor reading too much into it than it does this guy was an FBI Informant out to get people to kill others.

If that makes me a CIA Schill...well I guess the bloody sock fits.


Didn't you read my post, I already pointed out that the guys a troll. I'ma have to raise my rating from a 4/10 to an 8/10 with all the other bites he's getting.

He's now:
farm4.static.flickr.comView Full Size
 
2010-02-07 2:19:19 AM  
Here's something interesting from this article (new window):

After a time of silence, Bucharest got up and said that some of Hall's claims about his military background were true, but that other claims the professor made were not. Bucharest left the classroom after being told by Hall to leave and not to come back to PSU, according to students.

I'd be interested to hear what claims were true and which ones aren't. I tend to think there really is something to this story.
 
2010-02-07 2:21:28 AM  

CaptainFatass: (hell, if you think that's appropriate behavior ANYWHERE-then you're farked.


I didn't say it was appropriate. But if you think the professor's behavior and huge leap to conclusion is approriate, the you're farked.
 
2010-02-07 2:22:17 AM  

Epiphany: Didn't you read my post, I already pointed out that the guys a troll. I'ma have to raise my rating from a 4/10 to an 8/10 with all the other bites he's getting.


I dunno...if someone really believes something, they aren't a troll. They really believe it. There is a HUGE difference.
 
2010-02-07 2:23:24 AM  

SuperCatBarf: That said, if I went to one and some guy was offering instruction on making incendiaries and deals on weapons, I'd report it.


You would report it to your Econ prof?
 
2010-02-07 2:25:29 AM  

srhp29: Epiphany: Didn't you read my post, I already pointed out that the guys a troll. I'ma have to raise my rating from a 4/10 to an 8/10 with all the other bites he's getting.

I dunno...if someone really believes something, they aren't a troll. They really believe it. There is a HUGE difference.


The guy started out saying something about Obama, ignored my troll call out, and has said more and more ridiculous shiat in each consecutive post. Clearly a troll.
 
2010-02-07 2:27:36 AM  
CaptainFatass:

Do you really believe what you are posting or are you really just trolling as epiphany believes?
 
2010-02-07 2:28:12 AM  

CaptainFatass: srhp29: CaptainFatass: So...you're siding with the guy who tried to incite violence on campus

Where in the article did it say he was telling people to get violent. Some people are fascinated with bombs and guns...It said he told them how to make a molitov cocktail. It doesn't say he told them they should make one and use it to kill anyone, does it?

Do you really think the best course of action if you really think someone is capable of going apeshiat violent to confront them in a classroom full of people...especially if you know they often carry a weapon?

Sorry, but to me this sounds more like nutty professor reading too much into it than it does this guy was an FBI Informant out to get people to kill others.

If that makes me a CIA Schill...well I guess the bloody sock fits.

Yeah, it makes you...something, alright. Look, if you think instructing students how to make Molotov cocktails and trying to sell them illegal weapons is appropriate campus behavior (hell, if you think that's appropriate behavior ANYWHERE-then you're farked.


We call that moving the goalposts around here. Now you're saying it isn't okay - it isn't really but information is information up until you do something with it but that's a step beyond your level of reasoning I'm sure - but what seems to have been said is that you're flat out insane to believe that this person is an agent of the United States government without further evidence. Truly.Completely.Insane...
 
2010-02-07 2:31:07 AM  

srhp29: SuperCatBarf: That said, if I went to one and some guy was offering instruction on making incendiaries and deals on weapons, I'd report it.

You would report it to your Econ prof?


If I was 19 and the guy was in my class, I probably would. Who would you go to? Some administrator who'd dismiss you as just another paranoid kid?
 
2010-02-07 2:32:55 AM  

SuperCatBarf: If I was 19 and the guy was in my class, I probably would. Who would you go to? Some administrator who'd dismiss you as just another paranoid kid?


Perhaps someone with some authority to do anything about it? If they were really frightened and thought he was dangerous, I think going to the Econ professor is pretty much ignorant.
 
2010-02-07 2:32:56 AM  

srhp29: CaptainFatass:

Do you really believe what you are posting or are you really just trolling as epiphany believes?


Hmm... I think we got our orders mixed up. I was character assassination and you were disinformation or did I get that backwards?
 
2010-02-07 2:33:31 AM  
Ok check this out... first, go to Google's cached page of PSU's Student Veteran Association's about us page (new window). You will see him listed as the treasurer, along with his e-mail address. Now, go to the actual page (new window) today and see that he has been replaced and it no longer lists his name or e-maill address. It has been replaced within the last 10 days because the Google cache page is from Jan 25.

I also found his youtube page (new window) where he states:

Member of IDF special forces. I am now studying in the USA. I support all things Jewish and anti-terrorist, especially SERBIA!!! They are fighting the same war Israel has been for longer even. I

Hobbies: Sniping, CQB, counter-terrorism training, hostage rescue, explosives, weight lifting, swimming, reading, music, cooking, languages
 
2010-02-07 2:37:07 AM  

UnspokenVoice: srhp29: CaptainFatass:

Do you really believe what you are posting or are you really just trolling as epiphany believes?

Hmm... I think we got our orders mixed up. I was character assassination and you were disinformation or did I get that backwards?


Oh crap. Wrong window. Abort Rose Red Tea. Repeat! Abort Rose Red Tea!

/blames beer
 
2010-02-07 2:40:16 AM  

justoneznot: Ok check this out...


Here ya go...

http://pipl.com/search/?Email=tzhkperez%40yahoo.com&CategoryID=4&Inter​face=1

Cut and paste.
 
2010-02-07 2:46:08 AM  

srhp29: SuperCatBarf: If I was 19 and the guy was in my class, I probably would. Who would you go to? Some administrator who'd dismiss you as just another paranoid kid?

Perhaps someone with some authority to do anything about it? If they were really frightened and thought he was dangerous, I think going to the Econ professor is pretty much ignorant.


I understand the point you're trying to make, but you need to step back and realize that many students see a professor as someone in a position of authority. You can argue as you like, but I interact with 18-22+ year-old kids daily, and they don't think in the terms you're suggesting.

They want to speak to someone they're familiar with if they're going to speak to an "authority figure." The chances of more than one kid speaking to the same alternative authority figure on campus are slim. If several students contact multiple authority figures, the chances of them discussing the problem are even more remote. A tenured professor--in fact, any single teacher at all--seems to me to be a pretty sane option for a worried student, or multiple students, to contact.
 
2010-02-07 2:51:39 AM  

SuperCatBarf: They want to speak to someone they're familiar with if they're going to speak to an "authority figure." The chances of more than one kid speaking to the same alternative authority figure on campus are slim. If several students contact multiple authority figures, the chances of them discussing the problem are even more remote. A tenured professor--in fact, any single teacher at all--seems to me to be a pretty sane option for a worried student, or multiple students, to contact.


Well I am still unsure as to which law the dude was breaking and you aren't going to say anything to make me believe the way the professor dealt with it was intelligent...and I still think he is making quite a leap to FBI Informant.

Also, I was 18-22 in college at one point in my life, and my professors would not have been someone I went to with that information. But that's just me.
 
2010-02-07 3:00:12 AM  
Huh, sounds like crazy ex-hippie professor met crazy militia-wannabe student.

Tenured professors do go insane, on occasion, and it can be difficult to oust them. There was one at my school, who was kicked out with some effort. He ended up being the neighborhood madman. Marching around in a dirty trenchcoat, a large umbrella in front of his face, singing an insult song at high volume. Kind of amusing until you saw him running up to vulnerable people (like children and the disabled) and shouting insults at them.
 
2010-02-07 3:04:20 AM  
So if we don't see GaryPDX post for a while, it's safe to assume that he is Zach?
 
2010-02-07 3:04:40 AM  

CaptainFatass: Yeah, it makes you...something, alright. Look, if you think instructing students how to make Molotov cocktails and trying to sell them illegal weapons is appropriate campus behavior (hell, if you think that's appropriate behavior ANYWHERE-then you're farked.


Back from MW2.

How to make a Molotov Cocktail:
Take glass bottle. Add flammable, preferably explosive liquid (gas, alcohol, etc). Soak rag in liquid, plug bottle with rag. Light rag. Throw.

How to get illegal weapons:
Find drug dealer. Ask for their supplier, say you need something they probably don't have. Pay cash.

Alternatively: download plans for M-4. Mill out of aluminum. Download plans for AK-47. Make out of sheet metal.
 
2010-02-07 3:09:17 AM  

srhp29: SuperCatBarf: They want to speak to someone they're familiar with if they're going to speak to an "authority figure." The chances of more than one kid speaking to the same alternative authority figure on campus are slim. If several students contact multiple authority figures, the chances of them discussing the problem are even more remote. A tenured professor--in fact, any single teacher at all--seems to me to be a pretty sane option for a worried student, or multiple students, to contact.

Well I am still unsure as to which law the dude was breaking and you aren't going to say anything to make me believe the way the professor dealt with it was intelligent...and I still think he is making quite a leap to FBI Informant.

Also, I was 18-22 in college at one point in my life, and my professors would not have been someone I went to with that information. But that's just me.


I don't see where I said the professor's reaction was intelligent, because I only suggested his view be taken seriously. If you can point out otherwise, please do so.

I feel that way because the claims against the offending 30-year-old student include offers of instruction in making Molitov Cocktails and access to weapons. Despite your college experience, these are not normal things for a 30-year-old to discuss with 18-22 year-olds.

I was 18-19 in college once, and if some guy started talking to me about serious weaponry I'd have thought he was a nutcase. If I were a kid today hearing the same, I'd wonder if he was a terrorist. At 40 and in college, I'd discuss my concerns first with my teacher, then get advice from them where to go next.

Where would you have gone first?
 
2010-02-07 3:13:39 AM  

srhp29: CaptainFatass:

Do you really believe what you are posting or are you really just trolling as epiphany believes?


skepticalteacher.files.wordpress.comView Full Size
 
2010-02-07 3:16:20 AM  

Epiphany: srhp29: CaptainFatass:

Do you really believe what you are posting or are you really just trolling as epiphany believes?


Now you appear to be trolling, so because I said so...it must be so. Or is that only a rule that applies to things YOU say?
 
2010-02-07 3:23:51 AM  
srhp29, you're taking too long to respond. I'm going to go back to having a fun night, and will consider you owned.

Here's why:

 
2010-02-07 3:28:19 AM  

srhp29: Epiphany: srhp29: CaptainFatass:

Do you really believe what you are posting or are you really just trolling as epiphany believes?

Now you appear to be trolling, so because I said so...it must be so. Or is that only a rule that applies to things YOU say?


SuperCatBarf: srhp29, you're taking too long to respond. I'm going to go back to having a fun night, and will consider you owned.

Here's why:


I warned ya.

/troll
//call em like I see em
 
2010-02-07 3:30:34 AM  

Epiphany: srhp29: Epiphany: srhp29: CaptainFatass:

Do you really believe what you are posting or are you really just trolling as epiphany believes?

Now you appear to be trolling, so because I said so...it must be so. Or is that only a rule that applies to things YOU say?

SuperCatBarf: srhp29, you're taking too long to respond. I'm going to go back to having a fun night, and will consider you owned.

Here's why:

I warned ya.

/troll
//call em like I see em


Consider me suckered.
 
2010-02-07 3:31:52 AM  
Also, drunk.
 
2010-02-07 3:32:37 AM  

SuperCatBarf: Epiphany: srhp29: Epiphany: srhp29: CaptainFatass:

Do you really believe what you are posting or are you really just trolling as epiphany believes?

Now you appear to be trolling, so because I said so...it must be so. Or is that only a rule that applies to things YOU say?

SuperCatBarf: srhp29, you're taking too long to respond. I'm going to go back to having a fun night, and will consider you owned.

Here's why:

I warned ya.

/troll
//call em like I see em

Consider me suckered.


I accidentally the whole thing. I thought you were CaptainFatass, SuperCatBarf, three syllables, I think I need sleep.
 
2010-02-07 3:39:24 AM  
Here, chug this glass of booze. :)
 
2010-02-07 4:14:54 AM  

erewhon: Bi-zui! BAI-tuo, AN-jing-eedyen! Dong-ma?


Oh, I comprende alright...

caniuseapurchasedemaillist.comView Full Size
 
2010-02-07 4:25:00 AM  

srhp29: FBI Agent != FBI Informant. Totally different things.


You're correct. Doesn't make the professor's actions any less crazy.
 
2010-02-07 4:25:46 AM  

Ganthiel: This part jumped out at me:


Dreier said Bucharest also offered to act as a middleman to help students buy military style rifles -- AR-15s or AK-47s -- through a gun dealer he knew in Washington and that he had access to machine guns.


Fully-automatic weapons are legal in Oregon - you can buy them at gun shops there. They are illegal in Washington - period.

Offering to help a bunch of Oregonians buy machine guns from a dealer in Washington is roughly like telling your friends who live in Las Vegas that you know of this awesome underground poker room in Utah.


Because there couldn't possibly be any reason to buy a gun through any place other than a legit gun shop, right?
 
2010-02-07 4:36:55 AM  

Monty845: Molotov Cocktails - Hardly a secret how to make em

Assualt Rifles - Legal in much of the country, easily avaible

Machine Gun - BIG RED FLAG... assuming we are talking about a real machine gun, and assuming a student doesn't have $20k+ to get one legally, there is either something going on there, or someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.


You can find machine guns for a lot less than $20k. Most are between $4k-$16k, one model is $1699. Link (new window)
 
2010-02-07 5:04:35 AM  
If the Professor truly thought that he was an informant then he did the right thing.

If he would have gone to the authorities, it would have been pointless, the authorities put the informant there in the first place.

If he would have gone to his superiors, eventually his superiors would have given him the order to ignore him or transferred him to another class and would have told him to keep his mouth shut. And if the disobeyed it would have cost him his job.

So as you can see, indeed the smartest choice was to blow his cover which ultimately would force him to leave his post, well, that is if he's really an informant.
 
2010-02-07 5:22:48 AM  
From wikipedia on agent provocateurs'

In the United States, the COINTELPRO program of the Federal Bureau of Investigation had FBI agents pose as political radicals to disrupt the activities of radical political groups in the U.S., such as the Black Panthers, Ku Klux Klan, and the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee.
New York City police officers were accused of acting as agents provocateurs during protests against the 2004 Republican National Convention in New York City.[1]
Denver police officers were also found to have used undercover detectives to instigate violence against police during the 2008 Democratic National Convention. This ultimately resulted in the accidental use of chemical agents against their own men.[2]
[edit]
 
2010-02-07 5:27:50 AM  
Bucharest is ex Israeli Military. Claiming he's an FBI agent is getting a little too specific. Without more information, theres just an off putting smell about the whole situation, and a lot of loose details which, if assembled in a particular fashion, may have led this professor to believe that Bucharest was an agent provocateur. He certainly seems to be a pretty douchey guy. Anybody supportive of genocide is probably an asshole (comments in ref. to Serbia on youtube account). None of this necessarily implies that he's an "agent". Basically, this is totally full of fail for everyone.
 
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