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(US Congress)   U.S. Government calls for citizens to pray and fast so God will help win the war   ( thomas.loc.gov) divider line
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225 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Mar 2003 at 10:36 AM (15 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2003-03-27 04:55:31 PM  
I don't think morality comes from God. An atheist must be moral he can't do what ever he wants and then go to confession. He has to be responsible.
 
2003-03-27 04:57:27 PM  
the neo-confederates will not be happy when I start a civil war. the best part is all I need for a civil war, is me. fVrk you dubya
I've got more american in one little finger...
than dubya has in his hairpiece.

"I am better than your god, because I exist."
 
2003-03-27 04:59:11 PM  
Christmas was never a religios holiday.

Tell that to the people with the baby Jesus on their front lawn. I'm well aware of the history of the Christmas holiday. Yes, just as with other specific days of Christian holidays, it was originally something else. You had to keep some continuity when converting people's religions. But when they did paper over the pagan holidays with a Christian facade, they essentially became Christian holidays. They were two things then as they are two things now. As with most things involving the social aspects of humanity, it is not necessarily black and white or one exclusive of the other.
 
2003-03-27 05:00:36 PM  
I thought the headline meant to pray in a hurry.
 
2003-03-27 05:01:10 PM  
What is moral or immoral for an athiest? I'm convinced that Saddam is not a true believer, he just talks the talk for political reasons.
 
2003-03-27 05:01:39 PM  
It'slikethisandlikethatandlikethis what an enlightening use of the CAPS LOCK key... and Saddam does have his two sons in the fighting. One is the head of the intelligence services, the other the head of the military. Making them prime targets for decaptiation attacks. Have not seen the Bush twins any where in Iraq, have you?
 
2003-03-27 05:02:23 PM  
Kpar90-

Thanks, I laughed out loud at that final part of your comment, "Without a unified US, who would have saved the UK and France so many times?" Well said.

Yeah, the Civil War, sadly, was extremely costly. But you're right, it yielded a good return (a unified nation).

Objectivist- I wouldn't say that the founding fathers were great men because they were Christian, but because they honored and respected a God- and just and holy principles.

Mainstream Christianity is corrupt.
 
2003-03-27 05:04:44 PM  
Mrfree:
We're shaking.
 
2003-03-27 05:04:46 PM  
WorldCitizen

I understand what your saying but my point was Christians did not start Christmas. Your right they have jumped on the bandwagon but that just shows how subjective and contradicatory religion is. I guess you can say Christians stole Christmas but i don't regard it as a Christian holiday because the ideological premises behind Christmas are incompatible with Christianity.
 
2003-03-27 05:04:47 PM  
Hau: Good one.
 
2003-03-27 05:06:00 PM  
Kpar90-
Yeah, I read the whole Bible a few years ago. But there are TONS of stories in there, and I don't remember all of them. I still read it, but mostly stick with the New Testament. Refresh my memory- did the people with the Ark rise up in an offensive war?

Raiders of the Lost Ark is a great movie, but it's been years since I've seen that, too. I remember the Ark being a part of it, I just don't remember the whole plot.
 
2003-03-27 05:07:19 PM  
03-27-03 05:01:10 PM JAdamS
What is moral or immoral for an athiest? I'm convinced that Saddam is not a true believer, he just talks the talk for political reasons.



Saying that, i think you get into a whole other topic of natural law. Most religions, at their core have a fundamental set of beliefs, most of which are peace, love, etc.--You know, that shiat that we all get told to believe in, but hardly any of us fight to achieve. Anyways, I think these most fundamental beliefs are what are considered 'moral.' And by the way, you can still be athiest/agnostic and have your morality fed to you by judeochristian doctrine. Most athiests/agnostics weren't always that way.
It's like consumer spending. Most of us use the same brand of cleaning products as our parents, or someone else who's had a major influence in our lives.
 
2003-03-27 05:07:55 PM  
Joey JoJo Junior Shabadoo

Christianity then was corrupt to. Look at the Puritans that came here. Completly opposite of the founding fathers. The Founding Fathers did not found this country on priciples of Christianity, it was founded on the exact opposite.
 
2003-03-27 05:09:25 PM  
[image from 216.136.200.194 too old to be available]
 
2003-03-27 05:09:35 PM  
JAdamS: Morality is not confined to Christianity. All major religions have a version of morality that is almost identical. There is an objective, amoral right v. wrong.

Joey: Bingo on about half of that. The founders were great men because they were religious, but they understood that our country was founded by people escaping from religious oppression. For that reason they separated church and state. And so they are great because they saw the need to seperate their religious beliefs from their government. Did some trickle through? Sure, but it was more a function of the innocent state of morality back then than because they were Christians.
 
2003-03-27 05:09:39 PM  
Code_Archeologist & Kpar90

Regarding the history of "In God We Trust" you are both wrong:

"In God We Trust" thus appeared on the short-lived 1864 two-cent coin. It has been used continuously on the one-cent coin since 1909, and on dimes since 1916. Since July 1, 1908,"In God We Trust" has also been stamped on gold coins, silver dollars, quarters and half-dollar coins"

The quote above is from www.Atheists.org (no doubt a bookmark frequented by both of you).

Check my history here but I dont think the Cold War in gear until the late 1940's (80 years after it originally appeared and 40 years after its widespread use) so your assertions are false.
 
2003-03-27 05:11:13 PM  
*Hurm!
I imagine Diabloloco that you understood that my statement was for the neo-confederates, and dubya, meaning that your reply constitutes you an asshat, seeing as how you have transcended my comment to troll, mindlessly, and without contribution. good day!

i expect no less.
 
2003-03-27 05:12:11 PM  
I Ate An X: Who said I was an athiest?
 
2003-03-27 05:12:37 PM  
-christ was and is never corrupt.

it is the evil in men that they use his name to achieve their ends.

-don't make me sing 'one tin soldier'.

i mean it.

actually...i remember it from my youth. it made sense then...as it does now.
 
2003-03-27 05:13:22 PM  
Actually I didn't take your comments literally as I very seldom do. You tend to use blanket statements and as a conservative Texan I'm sure that your comment applied to me inappropriately or not. As soon as you say something worth rebuttal, I'll join.
 
2003-03-27 05:17:31 PM  
Gargoyleman

Why are you giving the nice dyslexics something to read with ease in this thread?

/nice dyslexic
 
2003-03-27 05:17:57 PM  
The founders were great men because they were religious

This is simply untrue. The founding fathers represented the opposite of religion. No other country in the history of the world has upheld the right to pursue your own happiness, i.e., the right to pursue your own goals and values, unbound by the demands of the community, the state, the race, or the tribe.
 
2003-03-27 05:19:29 PM  
I_ate_an_X I was refering more to the fact that the motto, "In God We Trust" appeared during the cold war. The use of "In God We Trust" on coins in 1864 was as a subtle reminder that the Union was on "God's side" as they were trying to abolish slavery. But you are correct it has appeared on coins for quite some time.

But it was during the peak of McCarthism that "In God We Trust" replaced "E Plurbus Unum" as the national motto.

Personally I think "E Plrubus Unum" serves as a much better motto for our nation and reflects the fact that our diversity gives us strength. "In God We Trust" has been nothing but divisive since it was first signed into law, as it implies the Judeo-Christian image of God over others... and sybolically weakens the diversity of the country.
 
2003-03-27 05:20:11 PM  
Roger Waters - What God Wants, Pt. 1
From the album "Amused To Death"

What God wants God gets God help us all
What God wants God gets
The kid in the corner looked at the priest
And fingered his pale blue Japanese guitar
The priest said
God wants goodness
God wants light
God wants mayhem
God wants a clean fight
What God wants God gets
Don't look so surprised
It's only dogma
The alien prophet cried
The beetle and the springbok
Took the Bible from its hook
The monkey in the corner
Wrote the lesson in his book
What God wants God gets God help us all
God wants peace
God wants war
God wants famine
God wants chain stores
What God wants God gets
God wants sedition
God wants sex
God wants freedom
God wants semtex
What God wants God gets
Don't look so surprised
I'm only joking
The alien comic cried
The jackass and hyena
Took the feather from its hook
The monkey in the corner
Wrote the joke down in his book
What God wants God gets
God wants boarders
God wants crack
God wants rainfall
God wants wetbacks
What God wants God gets
God wants voodoo
God wants shrines
God wants law
God wants organized crime
God wants crusade
God wants jihad
God wants good
God wants bad
What God wants God gets
 
2003-03-27 05:21:11 PM  
Kpar90

Its a joke...did you actually read the rest of my post or did you brain freeze at the slightest hint of being insulted?

But you bring up an interesting question: If you arent an atheist why are you offended by any expression of faith in the public arena?
 
2003-03-27 05:21:38 PM  
The world will be a better place when every new world fundie fasts himself to heaven.
 
2003-03-27 05:22:01 PM  
Morality is not confined to Christianity. All major religions have a version of morality that is almost identical. There is an objective, amoral right v. wrong.

I'm still waiting for the time when everyone else comes to that conclusion and can just shut the fark up about which embellishing mythology behind that idea is correct.

My only problem with fundies is that they're so uptight about everything. I mean, just because you think having fun is immoral, doesn't give you the right to try to stop me from having fun.

/non-intellecutal anti-fundie rant.
 
2003-03-27 05:24:52 PM  
heres this for a blanket statement: Religious Warmongering Neoconfederates appropriately and inapropriatly assumed to be Texan can join Dubya in exile.

Now THAT was a blanket statement, and now you know how I REALLY feel about your caste.
 
2003-03-27 05:25:10 PM  
Many of the Founding Fathers and Revolutionary War leaders were Deists, and upheld a firm separation of church and state.


Deism: (1) The belief in the existence of a God on purely rational grounds without reliance on revelation or authority; especially in the 17th and 18th centuries. (2) The doctrine that God created the world and its natural laws, but takes no further part in its functioning.
 
2003-03-27 05:25:20 PM  
-i hope it isn't too big a shock for some farkers when the troops that are only following orders...do not take bagdad.

it is 'not' going to happen.

it will be bloddy for all concerned.

reguardless of what bush thinks...these people do not trust us and they will not support bush and his new regime.

my motto....besides "where were you in 72?" is....

------BRING THEM HOME NOW !------

i will fark you till you love me.
 
2003-03-27 05:25:21 PM  
Kpar90

I don't live in Texas.

I think there is always ridiculous over-reaction to shiat like this. I mean, if you're not a bible-thumper, why do you care? it is NOT a bill, after all, technically it means NOTHING.

The "fundies" (heh heh, I always like that) act like if we don't sign this thing, we're a bunch of moon worshipping lesbian cavemen, and the athiests act like George W.Bush and the Pope are going to personally come to their houses and force them to convert under pain of death.

Neither is true. This, like all "resolutions" is a way for politicians to look good to their local constiuents in order to get reelected. Most other interpretations on this thread (with notable exceptions, of course) smack of sensationalism.

And these things work both ways: Rightwingers support it and look like good solid Christians, while leftys can oppose and appear like guardians of our civil liberties: everyone wins, as long as you're a politician.

No one is going to sneak mandatory school prayer or compulsory Christian baptism through congress. People need to relax, is all.

And anyway, with all the "sensitive" apologists for Islam in the US now, before anyone even tries to sneak anything like that through, I'll bet there is:

1)a law allowing Muslims to pray at the appointed times toward Mecca during class. It will be overwhelmingly passed so no politicians look "insensitive"

2)a law forbidding any prayer or even mention of Christianity in schools. The law will be specificly worded against Christianity.

Again: I am NOT a Christian, or religeous in any recognizible sense, I just think this is the way things are headed.
 
2003-03-27 05:27:25 PM  
...said with sticky fingers and a hand held grenade.
/amused
 
2003-03-27 05:28:10 PM  
[image from home.kc.rr.com too old to be available]
 
2003-03-27 05:30:12 PM  
To further illustrate my point here are some wuotes from the Founding Fathers themselves.

Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli (June 7, 1797). Article 11 states:

"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

In a letter from Adams to Jefferson

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved - the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"

From Jefferson's biography:
"...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, 'Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,' which was rejected 'By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.'"
 
2003-03-27 05:30:36 PM  
Code_Archeologist-

I think we have plenty of problems as a country but diversity and tolerance are not near the top. I find that liberals are inherently less tolerant of anyone who disagrees with them than most any other group. Just look at this thread, or listen to the Michael Moore's of the world. Thank God (there I go again, oops) that both are outside mainstream society.
 
2003-03-27 05:33:41 PM  
Deism: the only way you can be a naturalist without being accused of atheism.
 
2003-03-27 05:36:09 PM  
Burnination!
 
2003-03-27 05:36:50 PM  
DRLEARNED
helluva post sir. well done!

*golf claps*
 
2003-03-27 05:37:13 PM  
-drlearned...what a breath of fresh air you are.

as a 'sinning' christian...i thank you.

how anyone could think they could 'wrap up god in a box' and give it...or make/force someone to believe in something...just 'because'...is...well, pretty crappy.

it is a personal thing that either happens or not.

it cannot be forced.

the golden rule is a good place to start, imo.

i would never 'force' anyone to believe in anything.

it is 'your' business.
 
2003-03-27 05:37:46 PM  
From Franklin's autobiography, p. 66:
"...Some books against Deism fell into my hands....It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quote to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations, in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."

Thomas Paine

From The Age of Reason:
"Loving of enemies is another dogma of feigned morality, and has beside no meaning....Those who preach the doctrine of loving their enemies are in general the greatest prosecutors, and they act consistently by so doing; for the doctrine is hypocritical, and it is natural that hypocrisy should act the reverse of what it preaches."
 
2003-03-27 05:38:37 PM  
Fink - "America is responsible for all the evil in the world. In just over 200 years we've managed to be blamed for things that happend thousands of years ago. We invented War, Disease, Famine, Blight, Religion, Torture and of course Slavery.

Our founding fathers were clearly asshats up to no good. Lazy ale drinking shiatbags with no clear vision of the future. How in the hell did we get to be so powerful and why do so many millions of people want to come here?

Screw this place, I'm moving to Haiti"


You want to move to where GodAlmighty (TM) has chosen as His ultimately divinely cursed place to implement his wrath (AIDS) upon the human race?

(Based upon Pat Robertson's '700 Club' data gathered in 1985)
 
2003-03-27 05:41:04 PM  
And "Amen", Dr.Learned
 
2003-03-27 05:46:53 PM  
I_ate_an_X true... but being the old geezer that I am I have noticed a trend over the past 12 years or so towards more vociferous partisanship. And I am not talking about Democrats vs. Republicans but every side that has an opinion and a desenting opinion have become less and less willing to debate.

Now it does not really matter who's fault it is, or who started it, or who does it more... those are investigations fit for childish minds. What matters is that it stops. Because our partisan antics and slogan screaming is destroying our democracy, because there are no more informed debates... and you cannot have a democracy made of diverse populace unless you have an informed populace willing to debate the issues.
 
2003-03-27 05:48:27 PM  
-i don't know shiat.

but i know the difference between right and wrong.

-and this war is wrong.
 
2003-03-27 05:49:01 PM  
Bauer

Does this mean you are not watching me?
 
2003-03-27 05:50:10 PM  
find that liberals are inherently less tolerant of anyone who disagrees with them than most any other group.

Yeah, I know that when I think of tolerant I first thing of Ann Coulter, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and Rush Limbaugh.
 
2003-03-27 05:51:57 PM  
BTW, May God Almighty please forgive me for my crappy spelling.
 
2003-03-27 05:52:54 PM  
"I first think..." Or maybe I don't think. That could be my problem...
 
2003-03-27 05:54:58 PM  
WORLDCITIZEN
Yeah, I know that when I think of tolerant I first thing of Ann Coulter, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and Rush Limbaugh.
---

I feel a little weird going to bat for IateanX but, i think what he means is the kinda thing that Tom Lehrer summed up in "national brotherhood week"

Everyone should love their fellow man
But there are some people who dont love their fellow man
And i hate people like that.

"we dont tolerate intolerance", that kinda thing.
 
2003-03-27 05:57:53 PM  
I hate black people
 
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