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(USA Today)   Kentucky high school coach takes the football team on a field trip to his church, gets half of them baptised. Surprisingly, some parents have a problem with this   ( usatoday.com) divider line
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    More: Asinine, Kentucky, Baptist, field trips, baptisms, churches, U.S. Supreme Court, problems, school bus  
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12633 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Sep 2009 at 6:34 AM (8 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Mustakraken
2009-09-08 12:55:13 PM  

t3knomanser: Mustakraken: American Christians, based on the actions of a sub-set of that group

Based on the actions of a publicly visible subset of that group. If you don't like being associated with them, take it up with them.


That's an inherently flawed benchmark.

First of all, they aren't the same Church because they have different beliefs... at some point they said 'we think doing this os right' and the Church they split from said 'umm, we don't think so' and they left. Second, you act as though there's some governing body for the various branches... that's about as sane as assuming there must be a governing body for all world religions.

I mean, If your brother goes out and becomes a serial murderer, can I call you a murderer because you can't stop him? It's the exact same argument you're making here... Or maybe you think we should describe everyone from a minority group as thieves, because some of them are? And hey, if someone objects, tell him to go reform those other people, and that it's their responsibility since they've also been given the same label by you.
 
murp0837
2009-09-08 12:55:34 PM  
Came to this thread hoping to see false outrage and condescension from non-Christians. I am not leaving disappointed.
 
JohnBigBootay
2009-09-08 12:55:35 PM  

Mustakraken: You sir, are in fact the bigot... you've made assumptions about an entire group, American Christians, based on the actions of a sub-set of that group.


Sorry dude. If you think gays should be able to marry, creation should not be taught in a public science class, and it's cool to NOT give 10% of your income to the church YOU'RE the subset. mainstream christianity in the US has been quite clear about where they stand on those issues. Obviously I don't think ALL christians believe in any one thing - I do believe MOST of you do. And if you belong to church in teh US chances are your contributions are funding all sorts of farked-up 'focus on the family' type horseshiat - dot definitely, but probably.
 
SuperNinjaToad
2009-09-08 01:00:00 PM  
I have a HUGE problem with what the coach did BUT probably for a different reason than most everyone else.

As a Christian, to me baptism symbolizes the death and ressurection of Christ...
The act of baptism itself is just a form of obedience to God and a public acknowledgement of one's faith BUT only done once the person has accepted Christ into their heart and knows what being a Christian is all about...

It is NOT an indoctrinating tool nor is it intended to be used as some sort of tangible action to coerce a person into becoming a Christian etc....

The coach FAILED as a public school employee but he also FAILED as a Christian in my mind.
 
t3knomanser
2009-09-08 01:00:47 PM  

Mustakraken: Second, you act as though there's some governing body for the various branches...


It's called "the public". The adherents of Christianity define what it is.

Mustakraken: If your brother goes out and becomes a serial murderer, can I call you a murderer because you can't stop him?


No, but you'd be perfectly justified in saying, "Members of that family are murderers." It's true. And if I said, "But I'm not a murderer," it doesn't change the fact that members of my family are murderers. And if I cared about my family name, I might set out to bring my brother to justice or reform him.

When someone lambastes Christians, it is not a personal assault against you. It is a justified objection to the actions that have been associated with Christianity. If you don't like those actions being associated with Christianity, take action to defend it from the internal threats to its good name.

Anything else is mealy mouthed whining.
 
Mustakraken
2009-09-08 01:03:24 PM  

t3knomanser: No, my arguments against the whole stem from the complete invalidity of faith as a reasoning tool, but that's an entirely separate discussion.


And now we see why you won't back down from your fallacious argument.

I really like you arguing against faith as a 'poor reasoning tool' to justify your use of a poor reasoning tool: aka a logical fallacy

You realize of course, you are wrong here, but you can't admit that, because then you'd feel like you were admitting to being wrong about theism as a whole. It's two separate arguments... listen to me, the theist in this argument, appeal to the sense of rationalism, of you, the apparent rationalist. I'm really enjoying this.
 
jbezorg
2009-09-08 01:03:54 PM  

Shirley Ujest: What if the coach baptised them into the Muslim faith, do you think people would be so " Oh well then?


Limbaugh would be frothing at the mouth. They'd have to wring the spittle out of the foam cover on the mic during commercial sets.
 
CrankMyBlueSax
2009-09-08 01:05:51 PM  
This is a problem, because that Jesus water doesn't wash off.

Play ball, boys.
 
t3knomanser
2009-09-08 01:07:56 PM  

Mustakraken: You realize of course, you are wrong here


I realize no such thing.

Christians are anti-gay. This is a statement of fact. It is an inarguable stance. Christians are attempting to force their religious beliefs on our political system. Also, a statement of fact.

You object, and say, "I don't do these things," to which I reply, "I know. But the statement is still true. I never said 'all Christians'."

You then whine and cry about how it's unfair. Well, kiddo, life isn't fair. Christians do these things, and they do them in the name of Christianity. You disagree with them: great! I do too. But they are Christians, and they are the most public face of Christianity, and certainly the face that wields the most political power.

Which specific point do you object to?
 
mike.thesauce
2009-09-08 01:09:45 PM  
FTFA: The church's pastor, the Rev. Ron Davis, said that he requires minors to obtain their parents' consent to be baptized, but he added: "Sometimes 16-year-olds look like 18 years. We did the best we could."

seems to be a problem all to common with the religious leaders today.

/and, lol
 
2CountyFairs
2009-09-08 01:10:24 PM  

t3knomanser: The Icelander: Two problems with this:

1) The kids who chose not to go could be harassed about it (this is Kentucky after all)

2) If they're minors their parents have a right to know.

3) Regardless, school officials have no more business inviting their students to religious events than they have inviting them to have sex.


1) Harassment wouldn't have been in issue. Religion is pretty widespread in the county, but harassment over religion has never been a problem at that school.

2) I'll agree with that, but in this case, it sounds like all the parents did know and only one disapproved...after the facts came out because this kid gave his parents the wrong information.

3) My biggest complaint is the fact that he used school property to transport them, not that he asked. If I didn't know some of the participants (as you don't), I'd probably side 100% in your favor. But I do know them, and I know that it only took one parent to make this national news and the other 95% aren't concerned (or at least not enraged because their kids are young adults capable of making decisions).

I live in this county and have most of my life. When I was in grade school, I traveled with my basketball coach to some Catholic events with another player. Of the 15 people on the team, the two of us and the coach were the only Catholics. The others were welcome to come, but they chose not to and they weren't ridiculed for not going. But then again, we didn't use school property while traveling. The fact that he was in the wrong in asking us to go never crossed our minds, or even the minds of our parents.

If nothing else, I'd say that the school will never allow the use of buses outside of school sponsered events, and that is as it should be.
 
t3knomanser
2009-09-08 01:12:00 PM  

2CountyFairs: But I do know them, and I know that it only took one parent to make this national news and the other 95% aren't concerned


Irrelevant. Even if all the parents agreed, it shouldn't have happened.

2CountyFairs: The fact that he was in the wrong in asking us to go never crossed our minds, or even the minds of our parents.


Doesn't eradicate the impropriety of it.
 
Mustakraken
2009-09-08 01:18:12 PM  

Duyogurt: I'm glad you are offended by such atrocities, but I am disappointed that you remain a supporter of the very system that you are offended by.


It is my belief that the systems can be changed, such that condemnation like mine, of those who use these systems to justify disrespecting the rights of others, can become the norm. I know it isn't the dominant position today, but I think it is erroneous to assume that that will always be the case. Can't a progressive theist have some hope up in here?


JohnBigBootay: If you think gays should be able to marry, creation should not be taught in a public science class, and it's cool to NOT give 10% of your income to the church YOU'RE the subset.


Do you know what subset means?

A is a subset of B if every member of A is also a member of B.

A subset can be of any size, up to and including the whole set, while still being accurately termed a subset. In this case, I'm guessing the subset in question to be between 50% and 75% of the set, but that's just a guess.


t3knomanser: Mustakraken: Second, you act as though there's some governing body for the various branches...

It's called "the public". The adherents of Christianity define what it is.


No, its not, that is like me saying all humans are bad because some humans are bad, then telling you to go deal with it and reform everyone if you don't like me telling you you are bad... The one who is wrong would be me, for making unfounded generalizations.

Mustakraken: If your brother goes out and becomes a serial murderer, can I call you a murderer because you can't stop him?

No, but you'd be perfectly justified in saying, "Members of that family are murderers." It's true. And if I said, "But I'm not a murderer," it doesn't change the fact that members of my family are murderers. And if I cared about my family name, I might set out to bring my brother to justice or reform him.

No, it's the equivalent to saying "All members of that family are murderers," which is not true. Thanks for resorting to another fallacy.

When someone lambastes Christians, it is not a personal assault against you. It is a justified objection to the actions that have been associated with Christianity. If you don't like those actions being associated with Christianity, take action to defend it from the internal threats to its good name.

Anything else is mealy mouthed whining.

Let's change the term Christian there to 'black person' and see how well that goes over? If it's not ok in that case, it shouldn't be ok in the other case.
 
Mustakraken
2009-09-08 01:20:31 PM  

t3knomanser: Mustakraken: You realize of course, you are wrong here

I realize no such thing.

Christians are anti-gay. This is a statement of fact. It is an inarguable stance. Christians are attempting to force their religious beliefs on our political system. Also, a statement of fact.

You object, and say, "I don't do these things," to which I reply, "I know. But the statement is still true. I never said 'all Christians'."


Then, in essence, you MUST agree that I could make the statement that: 'Christians are pro-gay rights' because I didn't say 'All Christians'

Basically, unless you agree that I can accurately claim that Christians are pro-gay rights, then you are just arguing with yourself :D Anything else would be 'mealy mouthed whining.'
 
SuperNinjaToad
2009-09-08 01:22:05 PM  
The church's pastor, the Rev. Ron Davis, said that he requires minors to obtain their parents' consent to be baptized, but he added: "Sometimes 16-year-olds look like 18 years. We did the best we could."

I wonder if he said that with a straight face!

might as well have said can't tell between a 5 month old and a 6 month old baby!

Pastor FAILED!
 
stickmangrit [TotalFark]
2009-09-08 01:25:32 PM  

Mustakraken: Then, in essence, you MUST agree that I could make the statement that: 'Christians are pro-gay rights' because I didn't say 'All Christians'


do me a favor: write that on a protest sign and take it with you to as many church services as you can find next Sunday, then come back and tell us what kind of reaction you get. for bonus points, make a "Christians are anti-gay-rights" sign and get another person to make the rounds the following Sunday at the same church, and tell us what, if any, difference there was in your respective reception by the congregations.
 
Mustakraken
2009-09-08 01:26:11 PM  

t3knomanser: Mustakraken: Are you an American?

No.


t3knomanser: Christians are attempting to force their religious beliefs on our political system.



Oh, lol, so where are you from that southern Fundamentalist Christians from the US are trying to take over?
 
obamadidcoke
2009-09-08 01:27:28 PM  
Why only half?

Thid guy fails as a coach. A good coach should be able to get his team to walk through fire, this guy could only get half of them to jump in water.
 
2CountyFairs
2009-09-08 01:29:13 PM  

t3knomanser: 2CountyFairs: But I do know them, and I know that it only took one parent to make this national news and the other 95% aren't concerned

Irrelevant. Even if all the parents agreed, it shouldn't have happened.

2CountyFairs: The fact that he was in the wrong in asking us to go never crossed our minds, or even the minds of our parents.

Doesn't eradicate the impropriety of it.


I think you and I will just have to disagree on some of the points, while generally agreeing overall. He shouldn't have asked...well, I can sort of agree, depending on when and where he asked. Practice or during 4th period gym (which is the gym class specifically for all atheletes in the high school)...yeah, he shouldn't have asked (and admittedly the most probable scenerio). But if he asked outside of any school function, I don't see the problem just because he's the coach. Again, he shouldn't have used school property no matter what.
 
t3knomanser
2009-09-08 01:30:38 PM  

Mustakraken: 'Christians are pro-gay rights' because I didn't say 'All Christians'


Absolutely. But there are far fewer occasions to support that point than the converse. You would have to agree that the average person is given much more opportunity to criticize your faith than praise it.

Mustakraken: Oh, lol, so where are you from that southern Fundamentalist Christians from the US are trying to take over?


I live in the US. But I don't grant the nation sovereignty over me. I'm an anarchist/systematicist and reject the authority of nations. Totally different flamewar.

Mustakraken: No, its not, that is like me saying all humans are bad because some humans are bad


There isn't much to recommend humanity. Sadly, I am a member, and must make the best of my lot. They're not all bad, but it's a generally rotten lot.
 
red5ish
2009-09-08 01:31:20 PM  

You_Really_Like_Me: I'm not sure if the "Asinine" tag refers to the parents or the coach since I didn't read the article. So I'm going to vent my extreme displeasure at both:


What kind of witless and empty-headed parents would get upset over the Coach's dimwitted, ludicrous and inane attempts of religious indoctrination? What kind of moran is/are he/they? WTF?


/see you in the next thread.


THIS...and possibly... that.
 
t3knomanser
2009-09-08 01:34:10 PM  

2CountyFairs: I don't see the problem just because he's the coach.


Teachers are routinely fired for having sex with students, even when those students are at the age of majority. This is because there's a power disparity between the teacher and the student. The same rule should apply here.
 
Mustakraken
2009-09-08 01:35:12 PM  

stickmangrit: Mustakraken: Then, in essence, you MUST agree that I could make the statement that: 'Christians are pro-gay rights' because I didn't say 'All Christians'

do me a favor: write that on a protest sign and take it with you to as many church services as you can find next Sunday, then come back and tell us what kind of reaction you get. for bonus points, make a "Christians are anti-gay-rights" sign and get another person to make the rounds the following Sunday at the same church, and tell us what, if any, difference there was in your respective reception by the congregations.


seeing as I'm from a fairly liberal part of the country, I'd guess the first one would get weird looks, because people don't normally bring signs or try to tell other people what those other people's beliefs are for them... and the second one would probably get the cops called on them.
 
Duyogurt
2009-09-08 01:35:29 PM  

Mustakraken: Duyogurt: I'm glad you are offended by such atrocities, but I am disappointed that you remain a supporter of the very system that you are offended by.

It is my belief that the systems can be changed, such that condemnation like mine, of those who use these systems to justify disrespecting the rights of others, can become the norm. I know it isn't the dominant position today, but I think it is erroneous to assume that that will always be the case. Can't a progressive theist have some hope up in here?i>

No. The basis of the very system is flawed. It is based upon a foundation that has been disproven by science and contains things that occur outside of the physical universe. The monotheistic religions cite the supernatural and actively promote bigotry and hate. Remember, I'm not singling out Christianity. I am singling out the Abrahamic religions, each of which is guilty of holding back the advancement of the society and human understanding. In other words (using you as an example), you cannot be Christian without being a part of a system that exists outside of rational thought and believes that your class is the only path. If you walk the Christian line, no one else whether it be another religious person or secularist, is a good person. Everyone else is less than you, according to your books and leaders.

If you are so bent on being a progressive, leave your religion. Read some Dawkins or Hitchens. Go see the new exhibit at New York's Natural History Museum. It's a good start.
 
Teafortwo
2009-09-08 01:35:50 PM  

Epsilon: Christians in America often don't understand the problem with this sort of thing because they're under the delusion that they're doing some sort of good deed, and who would object to that?


I'd be ready to say that they think they were doing good, if they didn't do it with duplicity

FTA : "Superintendent Janet Meeks (...) said she thinks the trip was proper because attendance was not required, and another coach paid for the gas."

See, they KNEW it wasn't allowed, so they danced around that problem by making attendance optional and having someone else pay for gas.

They actually knew the consequences of it before doing it.
 
House of Tards
2009-09-08 01:36:39 PM  

Grimparrot: I'll tell you what...we don't used your tax dollars to get kids baptized, you don't use ours to abort babies.

Only fair right?


Any food paid for by tax dollars must be both kosher and halal. No ham at the city council meetings.

Only fair right?
 
Teafortwo
2009-09-08 01:38:23 PM  

SuperNinjaToad: The church's pastor, the Rev. Ron Davis, said that he requires minors to obtain their parents' consent to be baptized, but he added: "Sometimes 16-year-olds look like 18 years. We did the best we could."

I wonder if he said that with a straight face!

might as well have said can't tell between a 5 month old and a 6 month old baby!

Pastor FAILED!


To be fair, pastors often have trouble differentiating minors...
 
Void_Beavis
2009-09-08 01:39:01 PM  

Duyogurt: Mustakraken: shivashakti: Epsilon: Christians in America often don't understand the problem with this sort of thing because they're under the delusion that they're doing some sort of good deed, and who would object to that?

Oh, most of them understand it alright. Try to do the same thing with any religion other than theirs and they'll be all about "religious freedom". They just think their religion should be exempt from such restriction. Because they're 'right'.

/Christian in America
//Thinks the district should be sued for all it's worth
///understands, respects, and likes separations of Church and State
////is constantly offended at being lumped in with those that don't


Christian's in America do this, or Christians in America do that... Shut the fark up. Plenty of us are just as offended as you when something like this pops up on the news.

I think what you are missing is that this is the sort of thing that happens inside the religious mind and something all secular humanists and free thinkers find terribly wrong with the monotheist religions. It doesn't matter that you don't do these things. Your counterparts within the Christian, Muslim and Jewish religions are doing it, and therefore ruining my planet. Point being, as a Christian (presumably) that does not take the bible literally, you should have realized by now that you don't need to be Christian, Jewish, or Muslim to be a good and caring person. I'm glad you are offended by such atrocities, but I am disappointed that you remain a supporter of the very system that you are offended by.


What system does the previous poster support? The brand of Christanity who's offended by the boorish behavior of other Christians or are they all the same to you?

This is the problem I have with any brand of thought which seeks to callously brush people into neat catagories that fit your world view. Reality is far from this world. However you'll be happy to know that many religious extremists share your arrogant methods of grouping people. To them, there are no colors. It's all black and white. There are no varying degrees. You're either on the boat or off the boat.

In the past I've said this dangerous line of thinking presents a form of religious extremism that's both dishonest and non-constructive. I would hope that you could understand this, and do your best to tone this kind of hateful rhetoric.

I think the previous poster said he hated this kind of stupidity? How then, under the context of what he just said, does he support it? It's clear to me that he doesn't. Not unless that doesn't fall into your stereotype and you need to deride all Christians for behaving in the exact same way as you are now.
 
obamadidcoke
2009-09-08 01:41:42 PM  
Sorry folks, nothing to see here.
1. This happened outside of school.
2. No one was forced to attend.
3. No benefit for attendance.
4. No public funds expended.

The school offered the use of the bus. If they have a policy for offering facilities use to the public and they follow it then they are in the clear.

This is all settled law. Sorry Mom, but if you allow your student to attend a function that you do not understand or support then that's just plain old poor parenting.

/Though this is settled law, if a school district asked me about doing this I would tell them no. Let the coach rent a van privately.
 
Teafortwo
2009-09-08 01:48:13 PM  

obamadidcoke: Sorry folks, nothing to see here.
1. This happened outside of school.
2. No one was forced to attend.
3. No benefit for attendance.
4. No public funds expended.

The school offered the use of the bus. If they have a policy for offering facilities use to the public and they follow it then they are in the clear.

This is all settled law. Sorry Mom, but if you allow your student to attend a function that you do not understand or support then that's just plain old poor parenting.

/Though this is settled law, if a school district asked me about doing this I would tell them no. Let the coach rent a van privately.


The school isn't to blame.

The church is though. If you check the thread, no one is blaming the school... They blame the church and Christians in general, and they'd be right.

FTA : "The church's pastor, the Rev. Ron Davis, said that he requires minors to obtain their parents' consent to be baptized, but he added: "Sometimes 16-year-olds look like 18 years. We did the best we could.""

I mean common... You are about to save a man's soul, and make a significant gesture in the eye of God (the most significant one in fact) and you can't even ask the guys' age?

That some serious endocrination... Asking a teen stuff like if he accept Jesus in his life, if he pledge to respect your church creeds, but not even ask him for his age, and not once, but 20 times.

Bravo Religious people! We can see that you live a life blessed by logic!

You'd think that "The best we could" would include asking for their freaking age!
 
Mustakraken
2009-09-08 01:56:22 PM  

Duyogurt: No. The basis of the very system is flawed. It is based upon a foundation that has been disproven by science and contains things that occur outside of the physical universe. The monotheistic religions cite the supernatural and actively promote bigotry and hate. Remember, I'm not singling out Christianity. I am singling out the Abrahamic religions, each of which is guilty of holding back the advancement of the society and human understanding. In other words (using you as an example), you cannot be Christian without being a part of a system that exists outside of rational thought and believes that your class is the only path. If you walk the Christian line, no one else whether it be another religious person or secularist, is a good person. Everyone else is less than you, according to your books and leaders.

If you are so bent on being a progressive, leave your religion. Read some Dawkins or Hitchens. Go see the new exhibit at New York's Natural History Museum. It's a good start.


Whoa, you're sperging hard there buddy.

If you believe that there is no alternative to bigotry and hate in the Abrahamic religions, you've had your facts cherry picked for you. I don't think you're a bad person for example, because you aren't from my religion, and I don't think you're going to hell either... neither of those claims contradict the official position of my religion either...

In other words, with that, your argument is baseless...

Now, I might think you're a bad person because you're clearly biased against other people for irrational reasons... you're a bad person for the same reason people who try to say other races are inferior based on some pseudo-scientific claim are bad people.


BTW, fark the New York Natural History Museum, the Smithsonian is where it's at.

basically, bottom line: you make the claim that If you walk the Christian line, no one else whether it be another religious person or secularist, is a good person. Everyone else is less than you, according to your books and leaders.

This isn't just false according to me and my beliefs, this is false according to the official doctrine of the largest Christian religion...

So if you continue to hold your beliefs on the basis of such information... you're position is as unreasonable and illogical as, according to you, the position of those who support an Abrahamic religion is \o/


I'd like to again point out the comedy of the theist in the argument relying on reason and logic while the anti-theists do the opposite...

I'd give you a 1/5, the atheist position, when well articulated, I respect... this bastardized anti-theist argument, especially given it's poor quality, is a disservice to those who agree with you.
 
JohnBigBootay
2009-09-08 02:00:00 PM  

Mustakraken: Do you know what subset means?


yes
 
Deluge
2009-09-08 02:01:03 PM  
As a long time resident of SE Kentucky, this does not suprise me in the least. Then again, over on the east side, it's balanced out by the people that hop around yelling "I'm a Christian!", and when they are outside of church, they do things that would offend Ron Jeremy.
 
t3knomanser
2009-09-08 02:01:12 PM  

Mustakraken: I'd like to again point out the comedy of the theist in the argument relying on reason and logic while the anti-theists do the opposite...


Nice shot across the bow. You admitted the logic of my position, and even proposed your own counterexample, which I agreed obeyed the rules I set forth.
 
Mustakraken
2009-09-08 02:04:15 PM  

t3knomanser: Mustakraken: I'd like to again point out the comedy of the theist in the argument relying on reason and logic while the anti-theists do the opposite...

Nice shot across the bow. You admitted the logic of my position, and even proposed your own counterexample, which I agreed obeyed the rules I set forth.


The only thing I admit about your position is that it is at least internally consistent (and as a result of which you agreed that the claim 'Christians are pro gay-rights' is accurate, with your own addendum)... and I was taking the shot at Duyogurt.
 
t3knomanser
2009-09-08 02:06:32 PM  

Mustakraken: The only thing I admit about your position is that it is at least internally consistent


That's the very definition of logical. You admit the validity of my argument, but not the soundness. So, which premise do you object to?
 
give me doughnuts
2009-09-08 02:07:04 PM  

Theaetetus: Unfortunately, the Supreme Court equated atheism with religion in Zorach v. Clausen, and said that requiring no support to any religion was the same as endorsing atheism:


That's not what the ruling said.
 
Mustakraken
2009-09-08 02:09:45 PM  

t3knomanser: Mustakraken: The only thing I admit about your position is that it is at least internally consistent

That's the very definition of logical. You admit the validity of my argument, but not the soundness. So, which premise do you object to?


In your last post, you merely agreed with my hypothetical rather than responding to it... you admitted that you find the whole human race wanting, due to the poor character of a subset... as a result, the argument is over. You openly admitted to accepting a logical fallacy as reasonable for you. I, relying on reason, cannot possibly hope to sway your stance, based on faith.
 
Duyogurt
2009-09-08 02:19:17 PM  

Mustakraken: Duyogurt: No. The basis of the very system is flawed. It is based upon a foundation that has been disproven by science and contains things that occur outside of the physical universe. The monotheistic religions cite the supernatural and actively promote bigotry and hate. Remember, I'm not singling out Christianity. I am singling out the Abrahamic religions, each of which is guilty of holding back the advancement of the society and human understanding. In other words (using you as an example), you cannot be Christian without being a part of a system that exists outside of rational thought and believes that your class is the only path. If you walk the Christian line, no one else whether it be another religious person or secularist, is a good person. Everyone else is less than you, according to your books and leaders.

If you are so bent on being a progressive, leave your religion. Read some Dawkins or Hitchens. Go see the new exhibit at New York's Natural History Museum. It's a good start.

Whoa, you're sperging hard there buddy.

If you believe that there is no alternative to bigotry and hate in the Abrahamic religions, you've had your facts cherry picked for you. I don't think you're a bad person for example, because you aren't from my religion, and I don't think you're going to hell either... neither of those claims contradict the official position of my religion either...

In other words, with that, your argument is baseless...

Now, I might think you're a bad person because you're clearly biased against other people for irrational reasons... you're a bad person for the same reason people who try to say other races are inferior based on some pseudo-scientific claim are bad people.


BTW, fark the New York Natural History Museum, the Smithsonian is where it's at.

basically, bottom line: you make the claim that If you walk the Christian line, no one else whether it be another religious person or secularist, is a good person. Everyone else is less than you, according to your books and leaders.

This isn't just false according to me and my beliefs, this is false according to the official doctrine of the largest Christian religion...

So if you continue to hold your beliefs on the basis of such information... you're position is as unreasonable and illogical as, according to you, the position of those who support an Abrahamic religion is \o/


I'd like to again point out the comedy of the theist in the argument relying on reason and logic while the anti-theists do the opposite...

I'd give you a 1/5, the atheist position, when well articulated, I respect... this bastardized anti-theist argument, especially given it's poor quality, is a disservice to those who agree with you.


What? I'm lost. Whatever.

Your argument is that you want to be progressively minded and Christian. My argument is that you can't be progressive while adhering to a fundamentally flawed system based upon things that take place outside of the rational mind and universe. One contradicts the other. Moreover, if you believe in the Christian doctrine, you are subsequently judged by the actions of your peers, including those that are part of the other monotheistic faiths. Moreover, I never said those that are not part of the Abrahamic religions can't be bad. I said that those that are part of the Abrahamic religions are part of a system that promotes bad. It doesn't mean it reaches everyone and everyone that is part of the system is inherently bad. Rather, it reaches some.
 
Dr.Zom
2009-09-08 02:19:49 PM  
I think it's pretty clear from that article that Superintendent Janet Meeks^ and Rev. Ron Davis^ are both liars.

That used to be a sin.
 
Russ1642
2009-09-08 02:22:55 PM  

liverleef: "If players want to attend the coach's church and get baptized, that's great," Friedman said. But a coach cannot solicit player attendance at school, he said, noting, "Coaches have great power and persuasion by virtue of their position, and they have to stay neutral."

I hate it when I agree with the ACLU


The vast majority of what the ACLU does is help in cases like this. I rarely disagree with something they do.
 
t3knomanser
2009-09-08 02:25:13 PM  

Mustakraken: you admitted that you find the whole human race wanting, due to the poor character of a subset.


I admitted no such thing. The human race is wanting as a species. My objections to humans are many and varied, starting with their body design and metabolism. I think human biology is unsatisfactory, and the failings of human cognition arise from that.

It is not an issue of a subset, but the very definition of the set itself that leads me to define humans as wanting.
 
Russ1642
2009-09-08 02:27:15 PM  

RogueViking: I expect this thread to be full of calm, reasonable discussion on the merits of the coach's actions.

/Would also like a pony


I think you miss the point. The merits of his actions are completely irrelevant. They have fark all to do with the case. One reason for the separation of church and state is to get past the whole "but I meant well" argument.
 
Mustakraken
2009-09-08 02:29:57 PM  

Duyogurt: Moreover, if you believe in the Christian doctrine, you are subsequently judged by the actions of your peers, including those that are part of the other monotheistic faiths.


So, this is why you're right?
 
obamadidcoke
2009-09-08 02:34:18 PM  

Teafortwo: obamadidcoke: Sorry folks, nothing to see here.
1. This happened outside of school.
2. No one was forced to attend.
3. No benefit for attendance.
4. No public funds expended.

The school offered the use of the bus. If they have a policy for offering facilities use to the public and they follow it then they are in the clear.

This is all settled law. Sorry Mom, but if you allow your student to attend a function that you do not understand or support then that's just plain old poor parenting.

/Though this is settled law, if a school district asked me about doing this I would tell them no. Let the coach rent a van privately.

The school isn't to blame.

The church is though. If you check the thread, no one is blaming the school... They blame the church and Christians in general, and they'd be right.

FTA : "The church's pastor, the Rev. Ron Davis, said that he requires minors to obtain their parents' consent to be baptized, but he added: "Sometimes 16-year-olds look like 18 years. We did the best we could.""

I mean common... You are about to save a man's soul, and make a significant gesture in the eye of God (the most significant one in fact) and you can't even ask the guys' age?

That some serious endocrination... Asking a teen stuff like if he accept Jesus in his life, if he pledge to respect your church creeds, but not even ask him for his age, and not once, but 20 times.

Bravo Religious people! We can see that you live a life blessed by logic!

You'd think that "The best we could" would include asking for their freaking age!


Churches aren't required to ask for age verification or parental permission.

They can baptise any body they want by any means that they see fit, hell the mormons baptise by proxy all the time.

It only means something if the person baptised belives it.

If the parent is upset I direct her back to my previous post.
 
LaraAmber
2009-09-08 02:35:15 PM  

obamadidcoke: Sorry folks, nothing to see here.
1. This happened outside of school.
2. No one was forced to attend.
3. No benefit for attendance.
4. No public funds expended.

The school offered the use of the bus. If they have a policy for offering facilities use to the public and they follow it then they are in the clear.


I don't know of any school district that allows outside people to use their buses. I've gone to school in multiple districts (Navy kid) and whenever we did a unofficial trip for anything we had to arrange our own rides, even if our teacher went with us.

But let's say this district is unusual and allows their buses to be used for non-school events. So that means if a teacher tomorrow wanted to borrow a bus to take a bunch of kids to a Satanist meeting, the school should have no problem with it right?

Public funds were expended. Those buses require licensed drivers. Those buses cost money to purchase and maintain and insurance so that if those kids were in an accident on the way home, their newly baptized butts get medical attention. (Those insurance policies by the way usually have strict requirements about who can drive the insured vehicles, which could put their insurance in jeopardy if the coach drove the bus.)
 
zymurgist
2009-09-08 02:42:22 PM  

Ozarkhawk: My dad is dying a slow, painful death from bone cancer right now. I guess that would fall into the "lose" column, right?


I'm very sorry to hear that. Cancer is a biatch.
 
Get_Zero
2009-09-08 02:43:13 PM  

peridinos: Get_Zero: We also had the gideons come in one time and hand out their little new testaments.

I've got no problems with the Gideons or anyone else coming by to hand out books. Free books are always good, and whether you're a believer or not, you should at least read all the major religious texts. Never hurts to understand where your fellow humans are getting their ideas.


OK, fine, but do you honestly think that handing out free books for the edification of mankind is the reason behind why they were invited into a 4th grade classroom to hand out bibles? I mean, most "Christians" in this country don't even give a shiat about the New Testament, they're too busy jerking off over all the hatemongering in Leviticus.
 
wmoonfox
2009-09-08 02:46:14 PM  

LaraAmber: Public funds were expended. Those buses require licensed drivers. Those buses cost money to purchase and maintain and insurance so that if those kids were in an accident on the way home, their newly baptized butts get medical attention. (Those insurance policies by the way usually have strict requirements about who can drive the insured vehicles, which could put their insurance in jeopardy if the coach drove the bus.)


All of that aside, if this had been a field trip to the local museum, permission slips would have been issued, and anyone not possessing a slip signed by his/her parent would be hanging out in the cafeteria. This whole situation reeks of subterfuge.
 
obamadidcoke
2009-09-08 02:48:18 PM  
There are many situations where schools allow facilities and busses to be used for non-school events. I know of many schools that use busses to transport local fans to away games. Busses are also used in support of community events and even private enterprises across the country.
The law federal standard is quite clear, as long as you set a policy and apply it equally then the school is in the clear.

In my experience most coaches have bus licenses, so the coach probably drove.

End of story.
 
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