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(Yonghap News)   Zerg rush kekekekeke   (english.yonhapnews.co.kr) divider line
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32599 clicks; posted to Main » and Politics » on 27 May 2009 at 7:37 AM (13 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2009-05-27 1:18:21 PM  

signine: CBR ME ASAP: WoodyHayes: CBR ME ASAP isn't very good at playing word games.

I'm not trying to play word games. Once again here is my stance:
1. I do not know if torture works or not.
2. If someone is in a position to use torture in order to save lives, I am all for it.
3. If you are an idealist that thinks torturing 1 to save millions is morally wrong, and you would kill yourself to defend your position...please do.

That is my opinion on the subject.

Your opinion is stupid and not based in fact.


I see that you believe one man's opinion to be fact. And I'm the stupid one????
 
2009-05-27 1:18:57 PM  

Andric: cybrwzrd: One American citizen's life is more important to our government than the human rights or life of any other person on the planet.

Why?


Why? Answer me this, how many tears did you shed over the death of Mike Tyson's daughter, and you will have your answer.
 
2009-05-27 1:19:20 PM  

Jubeebee:

GIS for "single zerg"

Your argument is invalid.


Um, I think you fail at the internet
 
2009-05-27 1:19:54 PM  

jso2897: Thune: jso2897: cultures are NOT, as i sloppily stated, mere "behaviour", but rather a template for acceptable behavior designed to further their survival and prosperity. I.E. - Thou shalt not eat pork, thou shalt not boink your nieghbor's wife, and so on. Cultures, as such, CANNOT be good or evil.

Again, this is not true.

A person can engage in evil behavior, but if that behavior is elevated to a cultural norm it ceases to be evil?

Man can be evil, Man defines the culture he lives in.

Therefore, cultures can be evil.

You cannot just give a behavior a pass because it has been elevated to a local cultural norm.

North Korea starves millions of its own citizens. North Korea is working on a nuclear proliferation and is becoming increasingly nuclear beligerent with the rest of the world. North Korea has just signaled its intentions to attack South Korea, additionally, Japan is likely to be forced into a nuclear arms race for self defense.

This national behavior IS evil and should be called out.

Well, what you are saying is that you are a moral collectivist. I am not. Not much room for communication. Collectivism and individualism are really the only two root philosophies in this world - all philosophies are subsets of one or the other. And they are two ways of looking at the world so alien to one another that holders of those respective philosophies have no real basis for meaningful communication.
Statements like "North Korea is evil", or "Republicans are stupid", or "blacks are lazy and criminal" are expressions of collectivist thinking. I do not hold them to be "wrong" or incorrect - they are simply meaningless to me.


I am not a collectivist by any stretch. (I very much do not want any kind of universal healthcare to become the law in this country.)

These are not statements of collectivist thinking.

Nations need to play well with each other, whether you believe in collectivism or indivudualism.

It is interesting how you define two root philosophies of the world, and then completely denounce the validity of an entire one of those philosophies by calling it meaningless.

Aren't you using collectivist language?

And your examples are intentionally sophmoric to further your point.

How about these "collectivist" statements:

"Wild African Lions are dangerous"
"Hurricanes do damage"
"Saudi Arabia is Muslim"
"North Korea is regionally destabalizing"

Are these meaningless?
 
2009-05-27 1:20:20 PM  

cybrwzrd: Why? Answer me this, how many tears did you shed over the death of Mike Tyson's daughter, and you will have your answer.


I asked you first.
 
2009-05-27 1:21:30 PM  

Andric: CBR ME ASAP: 2. If someone is in a position to use torture in order to save lives, I am all for it.

Maybe I'm missing something. How does this NOT imply that you believe that torture at least potentially works? And if that's the case, what information do you have that makes you think so, and why don't you want to share it?


I do believe it has potential to work, do you honestly believe that torture fails every time? That it has never ever worked or saved even one life?
 
2009-05-27 1:21:54 PM  

alltandubh: Remove all Republicans: Differences in cultures aren't a matter of evil or not. FDR needed to house people in the 1940s to protect this nation. Kim Jong-Il might have a good reason for his.

Why not just go to Godwin right away and say that the Final Solution was an understandable response to the perceived problem of Jewish usury in the Weimar Republic? The significant thing about cultural relativism -- apart from the fact that it's easier than actually having to use one's critical faculties to distinguish between more advanced and more regressive cultures -- is that, if applied consistently, it lets everybody off the hook for their actions.

But of course it isn't applied consistently by anyone, least of all by you, or else you wouldn't have chosen a login name that vilifies millions of your fellow Americans who happen to vote for a different political party. If North Korea gets a pass for having a unique cultural perspective, so does the US, and everything you don't like from Abu Ghraib to Guantanamo is similarly absolved -- at least if you're not going to be an obvious hypocrite.


Hook, line and sinker.

// Your sarcasm meter is broken.
 
2009-05-27 1:22:53 PM  

Andric: cybrwzrd: Why? Answer me this, how many tears did you shed over the death of Mike Tyson's daughter, and you will have your answer.

I asked you first.


I just gave you the answer, if you are unable to comprehend it then that is not my problem.
 
2009-05-27 1:27:40 PM  

CBR ME ASAP: I do believe it has potential to work, do you honestly believe that torture fails every time? That it has never ever worked or saved even one life?


I'm not in a position to say that it has never worked; but I think the potential for mistakes -- i.e. torturing someone who doesn't have the information you need, or someone who may but doesn't cave to the torture -- outweighs the potential benefits in any real situation I'm aware of.

It may not fail every time, but it is wrong every time.

Yes, even if it saved a bunch of lives, that doesn't make the torture itself any less wrong. Worth it, maybe, but still wrong.
 
2009-05-27 1:27:45 PM  
Its all sooo simple. All we need to do is to send Paris Hilton over there to blow about 1000 males...with the story that this is what all American men get everyday...and you could too!

It will go viral...in 6 mos. the NRPK will be overthrown and we will have a unified Korea...
 
2009-05-27 1:27:57 PM  

jso2897: SnakeLee: jso2897: No it doesn't. in 99% of cases I have seen, when one member of the human species hurls charges of "racism" at another, it is purest hypocrisy.
Let's face some facts - we ARE a racist, tribal, belligerent species - and distrust and dislike of he who is evidently "not of our tribe" is hardwired into us. It is only one of the savage atavisms that we must struggle with on daily basis if we wish to be civilised beings. And that means struggling with the racism and savagery that dwells within your own soul - not attempting to "pluck the mote from thy brother's eye".
The truth behind racial humor is this - racism is funny because it is one of those realities that punctures the sanctimonious illusions we like to soothe ourselves with, and reveals us to be the nasty little apes we are about a millimeter under our skins. And if we laugh at it enough, and long enough, we just might be able to cast it into the pit of history where cannibalism, human sacrifice, and slavery (mostly) now reside. If, on the other hand, we delude ourselves into thinking that we ourselves are somehow racism-free, and it's all coming from those "other" bastards we don't like - we'll never change.
Evolving is hard. Pot calling kettle black is easy. And as usual, the hard thing to do is the right thing - that's how life is.

Yeah the only way to make racism go away is to take pride in laughing at racist jokes. I hate fark sometimes

Keep telling yourself that, my friend. Just don't look too hard into that mirror. You might see something you don't like.


You sound like a teenager. Or maybe a younger college student. Either way, your post screams "I've got it all figured out", which in reality means "I don't know shiat, but I want to convince everyone else otherwise".

"Look in the mirror"? Really?

Here's to you, deep philosophy thinker guy.
 
2009-05-27 1:28:21 PM  

cybrwzrd: I just gave you the answer, if you are unable to comprehend it then that is not my problem.


I didn't ask so that you could answer me with a question. I wanted to know what YOU think.
 
2009-05-27 1:29:14 PM  

Andric: CBR ME ASAP: I do believe it has potential to work, do you honestly believe that torture fails every time? That it has never ever worked or saved even one life?

I'm not in a position to say that it has never worked; but I think the potential for mistakes -- i.e. torturing someone who doesn't have the information you need, or someone who may but doesn't cave to the torture -- outweighs the potential benefits in any real situation I'm aware of.

It may not fail every time, but it is wrong every time.

Yes, even if it saved a bunch of lives, that doesn't make the torture itself any less wrong. Worth it, maybe, but still wrong.


Agree to disagree.
 
2009-05-27 1:30:00 PM  

Thune: jso2897: Thune: jso2897: cultures are NOT, as i sloppily stated, mere "behaviour", but rather a template for acceptable behavior designed to further their survival and prosperity. I.E. - Thou shalt not eat pork, thou shalt not boink your nieghbor's wife, and so on. Cultures, as such, CANNOT be good or evil.

Again, this is not true.

A person can engage in evil behavior, but if that behavior is elevated to a cultural norm it ceases to be evil?

Man can be evil, Man defines the culture he lives in.

Therefore, cultures can be evil.

You cannot just give a behavior a pass because it has been elevated to a local cultural norm.

North Korea starves millions of its own citizens. North Korea is working on a nuclear proliferation and is becoming increasingly nuclear beligerent with the rest of the world. North Korea has just signaled its intentions to attack South Korea, additionally, Japan is likely to be forced into a nuclear arms race for self defense.

This national behavior IS evil and should be called out.

Well, what you are saying is that you are a moral collectivist. I am not. Not much room for communication. Collectivism and individualism are really the only two root philosophies in this world - all philosophies are subsets of one or the other. And they are two ways of looking at the world so alien to one another that holders of those respective philosophies have no real basis for meaningful communication.
Statements like "North Korea is evil", or "Republicans are stupid", or "blacks are lazy and criminal" are expressions of collectivist thinking. I do not hold them to be "wrong" or incorrect - they are simply meaningless to me.

I am not a collectivist by any stretch. (I very much do not want any kind of universal healthcare to become the law in this country.)

These are not statements of collectivist thinking.

Nations need to play well with each other, whether you believe in collectivism or indivudualism.

It is interesting how you define two root philosophies of the world, and then completely denounce the validity of an entire one of those philosophies by calling it meaningless.

Aren't you using collectivist language?

And your examples are intentionally sophmoric to further your point.

How about these "collectivist" statements:

"Wild African Lions are dangerous"
"Hurricanes do damage"
"Saudi Arabia is Muslim"
"North Korea is regionally destabalizing"

Are these meaningless?


Facts are facts. Red is always red, it is never blue.

Platitudes and Bumper stickers are meaningless. If you want to compare his previous statement "Blacks are lazy and criminal" to "Hurricanes do damage" then you are not getting his point.
 
2009-05-27 1:30:03 PM  

The Icelander: Thune: But if it turns out in rare occasions that they "have to go there" to protect lives, then go for it.

The difference between war and torture is that people don't lie to get out of war.


This line is all over the place and is without basis.

Do yo think that the Central Intelligence Agency is not aware that the people they interogate can lie to them?

Do you think people that are not subjects of enhanced interogation tell the complete and whole truth?

Do you think the CIA just takes at face value everything that is said?

The CIA has methods to determine whether information is credible or not.
 
2009-05-27 1:31:43 PM  

cybrwzrd: Thune: jso2897: Thune: jso2897: cultures are NOT, as i sloppily stated, mere "behaviour", but rather a template for acceptable behavior designed to further their survival and prosperity. I.E. - Thou shalt not eat pork, thou shalt not boink your nieghbor's wife, and so on. Cultures, as such, CANNOT be good or evil.

Again, this is not true.

A person can engage in evil behavior, but if that behavior is elevated to a cultural norm it ceases to be evil?

Man can be evil, Man defines the culture he lives in.

Therefore, cultures can be evil.

You cannot just give a behavior a pass because it has been elevated to a local cultural norm.

North Korea starves millions of its own citizens. North Korea is working on a nuclear proliferation and is becoming increasingly nuclear beligerent with the rest of the world. North Korea has just signaled its intentions to attack South Korea, additionally, Japan is likely to be forced into a nuclear arms race for self defense.

This national behavior IS evil and should be called out.

Well, what you are saying is that you are a moral collectivist. I am not. Not much room for communication. Collectivism and individualism are really the only two root philosophies in this world - all philosophies are subsets of one or the other. And they are two ways of looking at the world so alien to one another that holders of those respective philosophies have no real basis for meaningful communication.
Statements like "North Korea is evil", or "Republicans are stupid", or "blacks are lazy and criminal" are expressions of collectivist thinking. I do not hold them to be "wrong" or incorrect - they are simply meaningless to me.

I am not a collectivist by any stretch. (I very much do not want any kind of universal healthcare to become the law in this country.)

These are not statements of collectivist thinking.

Nations need to play well with each other, whether you believe in collectivism or indivudualism.

It is interesting how you define two root philosophies of the world, and then completely denounce the validity of an entire one of those philosophies by calling it meaningless.

Aren't you using collectivist language?

And your examples are intentionally sophmoric to further your point.

How about these "collectivist" statements:

"Wild African Lions are dangerous"
"Hurricanes do damage"
"Saudi Arabia is Muslim"
"North Korea is regionally destabalizing"

Are these meaningless?

Facts are facts. Red is always red, it is never blue.

Platitudes and Bumper stickers are meaningless. If you want to compare his previous statement "Blacks are lazy and criminal" to "Hurricanes do damage" then you are not getting his point.


That was MY Point. that his statements do not compare with the original statement.
 
2009-05-27 1:32:45 PM  

CBR ME ASAP: Agree to disagree.


Ok then.
 
2009-05-27 1:34:32 PM  
I wish we could discuss this without haveing to do things like describe one another's arguments as "sophomoric". It makes me think that I have said something to insult, or anger you, and that isn't my intention. But anyway - yes - I cannot actually dismiss any collective concept as meaningless, but I was specifically limiting that to evaluations of characteristics that devolve to individual people and their characters - like good and evil.
Of course, we cannot live or communicate without ever making generalizations - but when we do, we should be cautious, since generalisations are inherently flawed as an epistemological tool. There is always the exception that partially falsifies.
Tame African lion cubs are as safe as kittens.
Most hurricanes never damage anything, they exhaust themselves over the ocean.
Saudi Arabia has citizens who are Moslem, Christian, yes, even Jewish and Atheist. Not many, but some.
North Korea's apparently insane leader may indeed take actions that will result in regional instability. This hardly renders North Korea and all it's citizens "evil".
That's actually the only point I'm trying to make, and it is not especially radical or controversial - certainly nothing to take offence at.
 
2009-05-27 1:38:45 PM  

joonyer: jso2897: SnakeLee: jso2897: No it doesn't. in 99% of cases I have seen, when one member of the human species hurls charges of "racism" at another, it is purest hypocrisy.
Let's face some facts - we ARE a racist, tribal, belligerent species - and distrust and dislike of he who is evidently "not of our tribe" is hardwired into us. It is only one of the savage atavisms that we must struggle with on daily basis if we wish to be civilised beings. And that means struggling with the racism and savagery that dwells within your own soul - not attempting to "pluck the mote from thy brother's eye".
The truth behind racial humor is this - racism is funny because it is one of those realities that punctures the sanctimonious illusions we like to soothe ourselves with, and reveals us to be the nasty little apes we are about a millimeter under our skins. And if we laugh at it enough, and long enough, we just might be able to cast it into the pit of history where cannibalism, human sacrifice, and slavery (mostly) now reside. If, on the other hand, we delude ourselves into thinking that we ourselves are somehow racism-free, and it's all coming from those "other" bastards we don't like - we'll never change.
Evolving is hard. Pot calling kettle black is easy. And as usual, the hard thing to do is the right thing - that's how life is.

Yeah the only way to make racism go away is to take pride in laughing at racist jokes. I hate fark sometimes

Keep telling yourself that, my friend. Just don't look too hard into that mirror. You might see something you don't like.

You sound like a teenager. Or maybe a younger college student. Either way, your post screams "I've got it all figured out", which in reality means "I don't know shiat, but I want to convince everyone else otherwise".

"Look in the mirror"? Really?

Here's to you, deep philosophy thinker guy.


Did you want to talk about something? I didn't get any content out of any of that.
 
2009-05-27 1:38:48 PM  

jso2897: Of course, we cannot live or communicate without ever making generalizations - but when we do, we should be cautious, since generalisations are inherently flawed as an epistemological tool. There is always the exception that partially falsifies.


Czarangelus, is that you?
 
2009-05-27 1:39:16 PM  
Remove all Republicans:Differences in cultures aren't a matter of evil or not. FDR needed to house people in the 1940s to protect this nation. Kim Jong-Il might have a good reason for his

1. I can not believe any rational person would make this argument.
2. Is this written in new speak?
 
2009-05-27 1:40:33 PM  

Danielsan: Czarangelus, is that you?


Nah, there was no reference to Israel.
 
2009-05-27 1:42:29 PM  

Danielsan: jso2897: Of course, we cannot live or communicate without ever making generalizations - but when we do, we should be cautious, since generalisations are inherently flawed as an epistemological tool. There is always the exception that partially falsifies.

Czarangelus, is that you?


Bear witness, noobs - THAT's how to insult a Farker! :D
BTW - Does anybody actually know what happened to him? He was....unique.
 
2009-05-27 1:45:01 PM  

Andric: cybrwzrd: I just gave you the answer, if you are unable to comprehend it then that is not my problem.

I didn't ask so that you could answer me with a question. I wanted to know what YOU think.


It is in the self interest of a nation state to put it's citizens lives above the citizens of foreign nations.

Just like it is in your own self interest to care about the members of your own little family/friend circle much more than you care about members of other family/friend circles beyond your own.
 
2009-05-27 1:47:00 PM  
CBR ME ASAP:I see that you believe one man's opinion to be fact. And I'm the stupid one????

I won't do your research for you, and I didn't say you were stupid, I said your opinion was. Then again, with every further comment you make to this thread I'm tempted to believe that you, also, are quite stupid. I could point out that friends of mine who have actually worked as military interrogators at Guantanamo Bay say that waterboarding and other torture tactics do not work. That, again, would be just one man's opinion, but hey, it's not like either of these people are EXPERTS IN THEIR FIELD or anything. They're certainly not more knowledgeable than some armchair neckbeard who has a habit of badly debating philosophy on the internet.

Yes, ad hominem, straw man, ad nauseum. I have sunk to your level. The point here, and the big point that you're missing, is that people in fear or pain will say anything to make the fear or pain stop. This is simple logic that any idiot should be able to follow. Here's the big problem: they will say anything, it doesn't have to be true.

That's why torture hasn't been used in first world countries as an interrogation technique in years. The best way to get information out of people is to befriend them or convince them that the information you need would be worthless to those people they are loyal to anyway. This is easier when people are enduring psychological trauma such as sleep deprivation, culture shock, thirst, hunger, a complete lack of functional routine, etc etc etc. These things are all done and really aren't that horrible. Sometimes initimidation works, but most times nothing works unless it is combined with developing a rapport with the subject.

It turns out that people who haven't slept in 3 days, who are hungry, who are alone in a strange place, and have one person they feel comfortable talking to (even though he's the enemy and they know that) who threatens to walk away and make things worse for them...well...they might just say that ONE little thing. You know, no one could possibly fault them for THAT.

That's how this works. Not your little Jack Bauer fantasy.
 
2009-05-27 1:50:00 PM  

WoodyHayes: Ludendorff's Ghost: I patrolled the DMZ over 20 years ago, and so I'm getting a kick out these replies.

/First to flee to TDC!
//Very obscure.
///You had to be there.
////Even plotted fire missions on Kim Il-Sung's golden statue.

"In Front of Them All?"


Naah. Sykes!
 
2009-05-27 1:51:18 PM  

cybrwzrd: It is in the self interest of a nation state to put it's citizens lives above the citizens of foreign nations.

Just like it is in your own self interest to care about the members of your own little family/friend circle much more than you care about members of other family/friend circles beyond your own.


See, that's what I wanted. Thank you for elaborating.

I don't disagree with you. I just wasn't sure what you were getting at with your previous statement.
 
2009-05-27 1:51:21 PM  
Torture DOES work. That is how we got the information to stop a second 9/11 in Los Angelos.

Of course al Quaida has been torturing long before 9/11... just check their handbook:

humanevents.comView Full Size
 
2009-05-27 1:53:12 PM  
There's a new N. Korea thread at the top of the front page - apparently there are new developments.
 
2009-05-27 1:53:45 PM  

biffstallion: Torture DOES work. That is how we got the information to stop a second 9/11 in Los Angelos.


You mean the information that was obtained through traditional legal methods before that subject was tortured?
 
2009-05-27 1:55:11 PM  

signine: CBR ME ASAP:I see that you believe one man's opinion to be fact. And I'm the stupid one????

I won't do your research for you, and I didn't say you were stupid, I said your opinion was. Then again, with every further comment you make to this thread I'm tempted to believe that you, also, are quite stupid. I could point out that friends of mine who have actually worked as military interrogators at Guantanamo Bay say that waterboarding and other torture tactics do not work. That, again, would be just one man's opinion, but hey, it's not like either of these people are EXPERTS IN THEIR FIELD or anything. They're certainly not more knowledgeable than some armchair neckbeard who has a habit of badly debating philosophy on the internet.

Yes, ad hominem, straw man, ad nauseum. I have sunk to your level. The point here, and the big point that you're missing, is that people in fear or pain will say anything to make the fear or pain stop. This is simple logic that any idiot should be able to follow. Here's the big problem: they will say anything, it doesn't have to be true.

That's why torture hasn't been used in first world countries as an interrogation technique in years. The best way to get information out of people is to befriend them or convince them that the information you need would be worthless to those people they are loyal to anyway. This is easier when people are enduring psychological trauma such as sleep deprivation, culture shock, thirst, hunger, a complete lack of functional routine, etc etc etc. These things are all done and really aren't that horrible. Sometimes initimidation works, but most times nothing works unless it is combined with developing a rapport with the subject.

It turns out that people who haven't slept in 3 days, who are hungry, who are alone in a strange place, and have one person they feel comfortable talking to (even though he's the enemy and they know that) who threatens to walk away and make things worse for them...well...they might just say that ONE little thing. You know, no one could possibly fault them for THAT.

That's how this works. Not your little Jack Bauer fantasy.


Lot's of people, including myself, would consider psychological trauma such as sleep deprivation, culture shock, thirst, hunger, a complete lack of functional routine, etc etc etc to be torture.

Thanks for the story time, though. My friends are from Mars and they say everything you say is a lie.
 
2009-05-27 2:04:08 PM  

signine: CBR ME ASAP:I see that you believe one man's opinion to be fact. And I'm the stupid one????

I won't do your research for you, and I didn't say you were stupid, I said your opinion was. Then again, with every further comment you make to this thread I'm tempted to believe that you, also, are quite stupid. I could point out that friends of mine who have actually worked as military interrogators at Guantanamo Bay say that waterboarding and other torture tactics do not work. That, again, would be just one man's opinion, but hey, it's not like either of these people are EXPERTS IN THEIR FIELD or anything. They're certainly not more knowledgeable than some armchair neckbeard who has a habit of badly debating philosophy on the internet.

Yes, ad hominem, straw man, ad nauseum. I have sunk to your level. The point here, and the big point that you're missing, is that people in fear or pain will say anything to make the fear or pain stop. This is simple logic that any idiot should be able to follow. Here's the big problem: they will say anything, it doesn't have to be true.

That's why torture hasn't been used in first world countries as an interrogation technique in years. The best way to get information out of people is to befriend them or convince them that the information you need would be worthless to those people they are loyal to anyway. This is easier when people are enduring psychological trauma such as sleep deprivation, culture shock, thirst, hunger, a complete lack of functional routine, etc etc etc. These things are all done and really aren't that horrible. Sometimes initimidation works, but most times nothing works unless it is combined with developing a rapport with the subject.

It turns out that people who haven't slept in 3 days, who are hungry, who are alone in a strange place, and have one person they feel comfortable talking to (even though he's the enemy and they know that) who threatens to walk away and make things worse for them...well...they might just say that ONE little thing. You know, no one could possibly fault them for THAT.

That's how this works. Not your little Jack Bauer fantasy.


It's just amazing how people can twist shiat around so that it fits into their little pre-conceived morality framework.

You: "torture is horrible and doesn't work"
Me: "what about sleep deprivation, culture shock, thirst, hunger, you admit that they work?"
You: "yeah they work, so they can't be torture"
Me: "but they seem to be torture"
You: "lalalalalalalala I can't hear you...it's only torture when it's physical....lalalalala I can't hear you"
 
2009-05-27 2:08:42 PM  

CBR ME ASAP:
You: "torture is horrible and doesn't work"
Me: "what about sleep deprivation, culture shock, thirst, hunger, you admit that they work?"
You: "yeah they work, so they can't be torture"
Me: "but they seem to be torture"
You: "lalalalalalalala I can't hear you...it's only torture when it's physical....lalalalala I can't hear you"


Making someone uncomfortable isn't torture.
 
2009-05-27 2:14:07 PM  

Jubeebee: In all seriousness, these latest developments had better not affect the price or availability of my Nong Shim spicy ramen. Because then shiat be ON, motherfarkers.


^^^^THIS^^^^

image.nongshim.comView Full Size
 
2009-05-27 2:14:14 PM  

foo monkey: CBR ME ASAP:
You: "torture is horrible and doesn't work"
Me: "what about sleep deprivation, culture shock, thirst, hunger, you admit that they work?"
You: "yeah they work, so they can't be torture"
Me: "but they seem to be torture"
You: "lalalalalalalala I can't hear you...it's only torture when it's physical....lalalalala I can't hear you"

Making someone uncomfortable isn't torture.


From the UN Convention Against torture:

For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

Link (new window)
 
2009-05-27 2:14:17 PM  

foo monkey: CBR ME ASAP:
You: "torture is horrible and doesn't work"
Me: "what about sleep deprivation, culture shock, thirst, hunger, you admit that they work?"
You: "yeah they work, so they can't be torture"
Me: "but they seem to be torture"
You: "lalalalalalalala I can't hear you...it's only torture when it's physical....lalalalala I can't hear you"

Making someone uncomfortable isn't torture.


It should be. Then I can get out of visiting my in laws.
 
2009-05-27 2:23:14 PM  
Wow, I saw a Fark argument involve a tiny bit of logic, AND conclude with a formal agreement to disagree!

Maybe today isn't so bad after all!

/Man I really want to play Starcraft now...
 
2009-05-27 3:02:14 PM  
While I can't see how increased North Korean aggression translates into Zerg terms, I'm still pleased to see so many Starcraft references in this thread. The picture of the new carrier was a nice touch, too. Also, GIS for "single zerg" made me giggle.

Is this about the tendancy of free-for-all players to ally up against the Terrans once there's a Nuclear Launch Detected?

Otherwise I'm missing it.
 
2009-05-27 3:13:24 PM  

pikapartykid: While I can't see how increased North Korean aggression translates into Zerg terms, I'm still pleased to see so many Starcraft references in this thread. The picture of the new carrier was a nice touch, too. Also, GIS for "single zerg" made me giggle.

Is this about the tendancy of free-for-all players to ally up against the Terrans once there's a Nuclear Launch Detected?

Otherwise I'm missing it.


South Koreans love Starcraft. That's pretty much it.
 
2009-05-27 3:25:52 PM  
We can just pull up G-12!
 
2009-05-27 3:30:21 PM  
lancemannion.typepad.comView Full Size


This place gave me the runs

/pic is slightly warm
 
2009-05-27 3:32:15 PM  
Battlecruiser Operational
 
2009-05-27 3:37:29 PM  

FueledByEthanol: We can just pull up G-12!


nndb.comView Full Size


FTW.
 
2009-05-27 3:43:39 PM  

Andric: CBR ME ASAP: I do believe it has potential to work, do you honestly believe that torture fails every time? That it has never ever worked or saved even one life?

I'm not in a position to say that it has never worked; but I think the potential for mistakes -- i.e. torturing someone who doesn't have the information you need, or someone who may but doesn't cave to the torture -- outweighs the potential benefits in any real situation I'm aware of.

It may not fail every time, but it is wrong every time.

Yes, even if it saved a bunch of lives, that doesn't make the torture itself any less wrong. Worth it, maybe, but still wrong.


i182.photobucket.comView Full Size
 
2009-05-27 4:15:24 PM  

Andric: pikapartykid: While I can't see how increased North Korean aggression translates into Zerg terms, I'm still pleased to see so many Starcraft references in this thread. The picture of the new carrier was a nice touch, too. Also, GIS for "single zerg" made me giggle.

Is this about the tendancy of free-for-all players to ally up against the Terrans once there's a Nuclear Launch Detected?

Otherwise I'm missing it.

South Koreans love Starcraft. That's pretty much it.


ah, thanks... that crossed my mind too xD

Carry on!
 
2009-05-27 4:22:40 PM  

foo monkey: CBR ME ASAP:
You: "torture is horrible and doesn't work"
Me: "what about sleep deprivation, culture shock, thirst, hunger, you admit that they work?"
You: "yeah they work, so they can't be torture"
Me: "but they seem to be torture"
You: "lalalalalalalala I can't hear you...it's only torture when it's physical....lalalalala I can't hear you"

Making someone uncomfortable isn't torture.


There's a difference between uncomfortable (having to sit in a room with no furniture) and being forced to stay awake for 3 days (at which point you are borderline hallucinating and incoherent). I'm sorry, you cannot draw an equality between those two things.

Being denied food/water is not 'uncomfortable', it is panic-inducing, especially when done by the people who have locked you up and won't tell you if you'll ever be able to go free.

Anything that is designed to put someone into a mental state where they are paniced and unable to think straight IS mental torture. Denying people basic requirements for life such as food, water, and sleep, EVEN FOR A SHORT TIME, to get them to talk is not humane treatment, and cannot be called 'discomfort'.
 
2009-05-27 4:44:50 PM  

xellas84:
There's a difference between uncomfortable (having to sit in a room with no furniture) and being forced to stay awake for 3 days (at which point you are borderline hallucinating and incoherent). I'm sorry, you cannot draw an equality between those two things.


I can draw a line because I've experienced the line. I've been kept awake for days without food. The only water I had was the ice cold water they poured on me to keep me awake.

It wasn't torture. It was very uncomfortable. I wasn't beated. I wasn't water boarded. I didn't have my testicles electrocuted.

It's just like earlier posters have pointed out: the best way to get someone to talk is to make them uncomfortable, then offer comfort. You don't torture them. You make life hard. If you're in a prison, you can't expect to get cupcakes and shoulder massages.

Go hug a terrorist and see where that gets you.
 
2009-05-27 4:45:29 PM  
speaking of which, when the fark is SC2 comming out? FFS they can kill a farker with wait on this shiat.
 
2009-05-27 4:57:23 PM  

xellas84: If you asked me to put a gun to my own head and blow my brains out to defend it, I would without a second thought.


Oooo, Ahhhhh. Another marter. Would you kill someone else to defend it? Torture, rape, illegally imprison.
 
2009-05-27 4:59:31 PM  
/needs more vespian gas
 
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