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(Wall Street Journal)   Remember that study that said teens taking virginity pledges have just as much sex as other teens? Nice work all around, except that it's completely untrue   (online.wsj.com) divider line
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19310 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 Jan 2009 at 8:02 PM (14 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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Howard Finkelstein
2009-01-06 6:03:10 PM  
*facepalm*

This article is extremely weak on detailed numbers, etc. Working in the environment I do, I'm really getting tired of the press writing incredibly poor science reports. Give me the data and a paper on it, or stop misleading the public.
 
Sensei Can You See [TotalFark]
2009-01-06 6:08:02 PM  

Howard Finkelstein: This article is extremely weak on detailed numbers, etc.


Maybe, but I find it very interesting that the bad virginity study was not outed by WSJ, but by a medical editor at US News & World Report whose background with NIH and the Red Cross made her actually pay attention.
 
Sensei Can You See [TotalFark]
2009-01-06 6:09:09 PM  
Forgot: There's no reason you can't track back to the USNWR rebuttal. I think this article is more an opinion piece about parents vs. pop culture.
 
Marcus Aurelius [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2009-01-06 6:13:18 PM  
Yes, they actually have MORE sex.
 
FireBreathingLiberal
2009-01-06 6:16:21 PM  
The fact that the author was Dubya's right hand man and speechwriter and that it's a WSJ editorial I'm sceptical.
 
Father Jack Hacket
2009-01-06 6:17:36 PM  
from the article:

"These teens have less premarital vaginal sex."

I wonder why he used the modifier 'vaginal' in there.

Is it because they might have higher levels of premarital non-vaginal sex? (ie. BJs, hand jobs, etc).
 
AlwaysRightBoy [TotalFark]
2009-01-06 6:26:42 PM  
a cloistered virgin
Sounds like a hard clam taco that will not open.
 
queezyweezel
2009-01-06 6:34:25 PM  
I thought the study said that they were more likely to have unprotected sex, not that they were more likely to have sex.
 
rodeofrog
2009-01-06 6:37:25 PM  
I love to study teens having sex. O shucks, I think I'm going to jail again.
 
IXI Jim IXI
2009-01-06 6:45:57 PM  

Father Jack Hacket: I wonder why he used the modifier 'vaginal' in there.

Is it because they might have higher levels of premarital non-vaginal sex? (ie. BJs, hand jobs, etc).


And god help us if they've got a glass eye.
 
veedeevadeevoodee
2009-01-06 6:46:10 PM  
Nice work all around, except that it's completely untrue

novinite.comView Full Size


/ Yeh, they like rubber too ... shrink-tubing with a hair dryer
 
FarkinNortherner
2009-01-06 6:50:15 PM  

Howard Finkelstein: Give me the data and a paper on it, or stop misleading the public.


Voila.
 
haemaker
2009-01-06 6:50:32 PM  
A conservatively slanted article from the Murdoch Street Journal? I'm Shocked!
 
Runs_With_Scissors_
2009-01-06 6:52:54 PM  
FTFA: Dr. Healy pointed out that "virginity pledging teens were considerably more conservative in their overall sexual behaviors than teens in general -- a fact that many media reports have missed cold."

Um, could you please cite the study you base this conclusion on?

This is a bullshiat opinion piece.
 
SusanIvanova
2009-01-06 6:54:46 PM  
What's the big deal if 17-year olds are having sex? True, there are potentially bad consequences, but there are some pretty good countermeasures out there.

The real issue is comparing the rates of teen pregancies and STDs between the groups in question.

If 20% of group A are having sex, and 60% of those get pregnant/infected, while 50% of group B are having sex, but only 8% of those get pregnant/infected, I'd FAR rather have my kids in group B.

Obviously, I don't know the actual statistics (not that the article in question has much in the way of statistics, either), but even if the stats bear out what this guy is saying, he's answering the wrong damn question.
 
FarkinNortherner
2009-01-06 6:56:20 PM  
TFA: whatever the shock that might occasion at CBS or the Washington Post

Washington Post: The new analysis, however, goes beyond earlier analyses by focusing on teens who had similar values about sex and other issues before they took a virginity pledge.

"Previous studies would compare a mixture of apples and oranges," Rosenbaum said. "I tried to pull out the apples and compare only the apples to other apples."

CBS: In this study, researchers compared the sexual behavior of 289 teenagers who reported taking a virginity pledge in a 1996 national survey to 645 non-pledgers who were matched on more than 100 factors, such as religious beliefs and attitudes toward sex and birth control.

(Quotes from articles named in TFA, my bold)

So, Mr. McGurn, while your interpretation of the statistics appears to be accurate, your central premise is a crock of shiate. I believe there's a commandment relating to that.
 
Runs_With_Scissors_
2009-01-06 6:58:00 PM  
Farking Northerner

No, I'd like to see the study that proves these assertions about regilious teens from Dr. Healy:


- These teens generally have less risky sex, i.e., fewer sexual partners.

- These teens are less likely to have a teenage pregnancy, or to have friends who use drugs.

- These teens have less premarital vaginal sex.

- When these teens lose their virginity they tend to do so at age 21 -- compared to 17 for the typical American teen.


Oh, and if you're going to link something could you please make it a pop up?
 
meat0918 [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2009-01-06 7:01:17 PM  
I like the links on the bottom.

Fox News : Study: Religious Teens More Likely to Abstain from Sex (new window)

Tracking through news.aol.com to Washington Post

Premarital Abstinence Pledges Ineffective, Study Finds (new window)

They just wait longer, but still have premarital sex. Nice reporting Fox News. I like the 25% success rate of the pledge too!

Here is a good rule of thumb, if you are embarrassed to buy a form of birth control (condoms especially), you are probably not ready to start having sex.
 
rodeofrog
2009-01-06 7:02:11 PM  
I never took a virginity pledge, but remained a virgin until I was married.

Why yes, I did grow up in Utah.
 
sloppy shoes
2009-01-06 7:05:42 PM  
Of course the study compared religious teens to other religious teens. What were they supposed to compare- kids who signed the pledge versus kids who've already had sex?

The point of the analysis was that- among kids who were realistically able/willing to keep the pledge- the pledge made little difference in their ultimate choice to have sex before marriage. So the statement "Virginity pledges don't stop teen sex" is fairly accurate, even though the common interpretation of it may not be- which, to be fair, was probably not aided by any of the news articles listed.

FTA:- These teens generally have less risky sex, i.e., fewer sexual partners.

- These teens are less likely to have a teenage pregnancy, or to have friends who use drugs.

- These teens have less premarital vaginal sex.

Again, one would logically expect those things. However, they don't necessarily cause one another. Taking the abstinence before marriage view would likely cause you to have less sexual partners- even if only because you end up starting later, causing less premarital vaginal sex- but it may only have a correlation with drug using friends due to a more general conservative viewpoint on these issues. The WSJ author seems to think that conservative people must equal liberal people- which is not what the study in question addressed.

FTA: Unlike the majority of health experts and their supporters in the press, however, they don't believe that the proper use of the condom is the be all and end all.

I have never read or heard of a sex expert that promotes free reign concerning sexual activity as long as you wear condoms. If this article is supposed to correct the mis-analysis of its fellow news organizations, this statement is far more obtuse in its mis-characterization of sexperts.
 
meat0918 [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2009-01-06 7:05:52 PM  

Runs_With_Scissors_: Farking Northerner

No, I'd like to see the study that proves these assertions about regilious teens from Dr. Healy:


- These teens generally have less risky sex, i.e., fewer sexual partners.

- These teens are less likely to have a teenage pregnancy, or to have friends who use drugs.

- These teens have less premarital vaginal sex.

- When these teens lose their virginity they tend to do so at age 21 -- compared to 17 for the typical American teen.


Oh, and if you're going to link something could you please make it a pop up?


Another study from around a year ago stated something along the lines that virginity pledgers have more anal sex, since they are technical virgins. I am not sure what the study said exactly, just that anal sex was on the rise among teens trying to preserve their virginity.

I'm not about to google it at work, something about searching for the terms teen anal virgins just sounds like a bad idea.
 
daas
2009-01-06 7:10:13 PM  

Runs_With_Scissors_: - These teens generally have less risky sex, i.e., fewer sexual partners.

- These teens are less likely to have a teenage pregnancy, or to have friends who use drugs.


Because most people who pledge to not have sex before mariage also don't receive sex ed, they probably are more prone to STDs or teenage pregnancy if they do have sex.

Any argument about the pledges being a solution to those problems are complete bull crap.
 
Sensei Can You See [TotalFark]
2009-01-06 7:13:35 PM  
Before the butthurt gets too deep, I have a couple of questions:

1. We've got a link to the study under dispute in the thread now. Is anyone going to see if they article's claims are substantiated or is "this paper is owned by Murdoch" going to stand in for research?

2. Is anyone interested in actually seeing what Healy had to say?

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/heart-to-heart/2008/12/30/7-factors-that-foster-te en -virginity-pledge-or-no-pledge.html#read_more (new window)
 
FarkinNortherner
2009-01-06 7:14:49 PM  

Runs_With_Scissors_: No, I'd like to see the study that proves these assertions about regilious teens from Dr. Healy:


- These teens generally have less risky sex, i.e., fewer sexual partners.

- These teens are less likely to have a teenage pregnancy, or to have friends who use drugs.

- These teens have less premarital vaginal sex.

- When these teens lose their virginity they tend to do so at age 21 -- compared to 17 for the typical American teen.


Feel free to read the study's numerous citations. I've only linked the study,m to which this and earlier articles specifically refer, which appears to support McGurn's argument, and some, though not all, of the assertions made by Dr. Healy.

Oh, and if you're going to link something could you please make it a pop up?

This will help, it's all the rage amongst the cool kids.
 
Sensei Can You See [TotalFark]
2009-01-06 7:15:44 PM  

sloppy shoes: Of course the study compared religious teens to other religious teens. What were they supposed to compare- kids who signed the pledge versus kids who've already had sex?


Wasn't that the point of the article? He points out just that fact -- that the study pretended to compare teens who'd taken pledges with teens in general, not other religious teens who DIDN'T take pledges. Classic bait-and-switch.
 
FarkinNortherner
2009-01-06 7:15:57 PM  

FarkinNortherner: which appears to support McGurn's argument [in as much as the claim that the pledges and non pledges were matched with regard to their social and religious attitudes]


FTFM
 
The Icelander
2009-01-06 7:17:06 PM  
meat0918: Another study from around a year ago stated something along the lines that virginity pledgers have more anal sex, since they are technical virgins. I am not sure what the study said exactly, just that anal sex was on the rise among teens trying to preserve their virginity.

I'm torn.

On one hand, I want to protect kids from making decisions that can drastically limit their possibilities in life.

On the other, I think teenagers having butt sex is awesome.
 
FarkinNortherner
2009-01-06 7:18:37 PM  

You Can't Fix Stupid: the study pretended to compare teens who'd taken pledges with teens in general, not other religious teens who DIDN'T take pledges. Classic bait-and-switch.


No it didn't. It's title is "Patient Teenagers? A Comparison of the Sexual Behavior of Virginity Pledgers and Matched Nonpledgers" (my bold). The significance of the word 'matched' may have been lost on some journalists (although that isn't supported by the Washington Post or CBS articles), but the study is explicit in its aims.
 
Sensei Can You See [TotalFark]
2009-01-06 7:18:59 PM  

Runs_With_Scissors_: No, I'd like to see the study that proves these assertions about regilious teens from Dr. Healy:


And of course you will apply similar rigor to the other study. Or do we assume the media's lying only when it doesn't cater to our preconceptions?

Gotta leave and go pick up the rugrats. Have fun, y'alls.
 
FarkinNortherner
2009-01-06 7:19:21 PM  

The Icelander: meat0918: Another study from around a year ago stated something along the lines that virginity pledgers have more anal sex, since they are technical virgins. I am not sure what the study said exactly, just that anal sex was on the rise among teens trying to preserve their virginity.

I'm torn.


I suggest a persistent water based lube.
 
rodeofrog
2009-01-06 7:21:54 PM  
Virginity pledges alone will not do the trick. The key is to make the kids really and truly believe that God will absolutely hate them and their lives will definitely be over the instant the head of the penis contacts the labia. Unless and until they have endured a ceremony - complete with bad dancing.

I ruined so many pairs of pants as a kid.
 
rodeofrog
2009-01-06 7:24:46 PM  

The Icelander: On one hand, I want to protect kids from making decisions that can drastically limit their possibilities in life.

On the other, I think teenagers having butt sex is awesome.


All discussions of teenage sex should include the modifiers: "on the one hand" and "on the other hand".
 
meat0918 [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2009-01-06 7:25:26 PM  

You Can't Fix Stupid: sloppy shoes: Of course the study compared religious teens to other religious teens. What were they supposed to compare- kids who signed the pledge versus kids who've already had sex?

Wasn't that the point of the article? He points out just that fact -- that the study pretended to compare teens who'd taken pledges with teens in general, not other religious teens who DIDN'T take pledges. Classic bait-and-switch.



The study did no such thing, the various media outlets obtusely and not so obtusely did by doing a crappy job of reporting.

This is just more crappy opinion about how crappy a job the media does when reporting on scientific studies.

It is much more interesting that among religious teens the pledge made little to no difference in the rate of premarital sex, and that only 25% of those that took the pledge maintained it.

I want to know among that 25% when they got married(was it right out of high school)? And, as superficial as it is, I'm going to also need to know general attractiveness levels for the 25%.

I'd also like to know among general population how many stay virgins until marriage.
 
SurfaceTension [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2009-01-06 7:26:08 PM  
Let me ask a serious question here, not really related specifically to the article, but mentioned within.

Why is sex a moral issue? It just doesn't make sense to arbitrarily attach some stigma to sexual conduct.

Personally I think there's no good reason to treat it as anything other than a public health issue. And if we did that and didn't worry about offending people, or treating sex as something shameful, we'd be able to better address things like the risky behaviors outlined in the article. But as long as we're just going "don't do that" most kids ARE going to do it.
 
verbaltoxin
2009-01-06 7:29:26 PM  

You Can't Fix Stupid: Before the butthurt gets too deep, I have a couple of questions:

1. We've got a link to the study under dispute in the thread now. Is anyone going to see if they article's claims are substantiated or is "this paper is owned by Murdoch" going to stand in for research?

2. Is anyone interested in actually seeing what Healy had to say?

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/heart-to-heart/2008/12/30/7-factors-that-foster-te en -virginity-pledge-or-no-pledge.html#read_more (new window)


I was especially interested in the factors Healy pointed out as, "good lessons:"

1. A greater level of religious beliefs and involvement with religious activities by both teens and their families

2. Greater participation in weekly youth groups

3. Less sexual experience by age 15

4. Old-country values, in that sexually restrained adolescents tended to be foreign born, with a high percentage of Asian births

5. Fewer friends who drank or used illegal drugs

6. More negative feelings about having sex or using birth control

7. Strong sense of guilt about having sex, with a bit of worry about upsetting mom.

So being religious, God-fearing, condom-hating, aversive to sex and feeling guilt are good lessons? #2 is totally irrelevant if you weren't an immigrant.

All this crap proves is that religious teens wait longer to do it, but they have more hang ups about sex and have a black/white view of sex in general. Oh and they don't like birth control or anything besides abstinence that could inhibit STD transmission.

A lifetime of sexual anxiety and aversion to birth control - yeah those are great lessons there, Dr. Healy.
 
rodeofrog
2009-01-06 7:32:26 PM  

SurfaceTension: Why is sex a moral issue? It just doesn't make sense to arbitrarily attach some stigma to sexual conduct.


Women cry a lot. The purpose of society is to reduce this as much as possible.
 
FarkinNortherner
2009-01-06 7:35:28 PM  

SurfaceTension: Why is sex a moral issue? It just doesn't make sense to arbitrarily attach some stigma to sexual conduct.


If you live in a societally unstable, semi-nomadic, religiously oppressed desert community 2000 years ago, it's eminently sensible for women only to become pregnant when they are in a secure relationship and for such couplings to be near universal. Various other social restrictions, such as not getting drunk, not eating sources of food poisoning, not lying, or honouring your elders, may also be useful. Throw in 'you're going to a bad place and/or going to be ostracised if you don't follow these rules' and codify it, and you have organised religion.

rodeofrog: Women cry a lot. The purpose of society is to reduce this as much as possible.


Although I prefer this answer.
 
kronicfeld
2009-01-06 7:37:43 PM  
Has anyone considered that teens who take virginity pledges are probably less likely to get laid than the rest of the teen population, pledge or no? You all remember the type.
 
sloppy shoes
2009-01-06 7:38:04 PM  
Yeah, if you read the conclusions of the paper it's worrisome and entertaining:

RESULTS. Five years after the pledge, 82% of pledgers denied having ever pledged.
Pledgers and matched nonpledgers did not differ in premarital sex, sexually transmitted diseases, and anal and oral sex variables. Pledgers had 0.1 fewer past-year partners but did not differ in lifetime sexual partners and age of first sex. Fewer
pledgers than matched nonpledgers used birth control and condoms in the past year
and birth control at last sex.
 
meat0918 [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2009-01-06 7:38:05 PM  

SurfaceTension: Let me ask a serious question here, not really related specifically to the article, but mentioned within.

Why is sex a moral issue? It just doesn't make sense to arbitrarily attach some stigma to sexual conduct.

Personally I think there's no good reason to treat it as anything other than a public health issue. And if we did that and didn't worry about offending people, or treating sex as something shameful, we'd be able to better address things like the risky behaviors outlined in the article. But as long as we're just going "don't do that" most kids ARE going to do it.


It's about control. The stigma is there because of millenia of conditioning regarding sex and sexuality. Everyone has their hang-ups. The taboos surrounding sex are strong everywhere, they just vary from place to place.
 
ninjakirby
2009-01-06 7:38:06 PM  
After the promise: The STD consequences of adolescent virginity pledges
Results:
Pledgers are consistently less likely to be exposed to risk factors across a wide range of indicators, but their STD infection rate does not differ from nonpledgers. Possible explanations are that pledgers are less likely than others to use condoms at sexual debut and to be tested and diagnosed with STDs.

Conclusion
Adopting virginity pledges as intervention may not be the optimal approach to preventing STD acquisition among young adults.


Promising to wait: Virginity pledges and adolescent sexual behavior

Results:
The findings indicate that making a private pledge or promise to oneself to wait to have sexual intercourse until one is older reduces the likelihood that adolescents will engage in sexual intercourse and oral sex. The effect persists even when controlling for socio-demographic variables. Making a formal pledge did not appear to have an effect on sexual behavior.

Conclusion:
The findings raise questions about the effectiveness of formal virginity pledges in preventing adolescent sexual behavior. The findings suggest that sexual health programs may be more effective if they encourage young people to make a personal commitment to delay the onset of sex, foster social norms supportive of delaying sex, and raise awareness of how early sexual initiation may threaten future plans.


Damn that lying science! Damn it to hell.
 
JohnnyC
2009-01-06 7:39:49 PM  
That wasn't an article... that was a fluff piece written by someone with an agenda.

This abstinence only crap is just another fail in a long line of people trying to defy nature. Don't fight nature... you will lose.
 
ninjakirby
2009-01-06 7:40:14 PM  

kronicfeld: Has anyone considered that teens who take virginity pledges are probably less likely to get laid than the rest of the teen population, pledge or no? You all remember the type.


The girls who took pledges of chastity in my church also gave the best head. A friend in my Highschool English course summed it up better than I ever could.

"Holy shiat dude, Mormon girls love the dick."
 
sloppy shoes
2009-01-06 7:41:24 PM  
Also important:

Comparing the 289 pledgers and
3151 nonpledgers at wave 1 before matching, pledgers
were less sexually experienced and expected more nega-
tive and fewer positive psychosocial effects of sex and birth
control use, with lower birth control efficacy and knowl-
edge. Pledgers had greater levels of religious belief, involve-
ment, Born Again affiliation, more religious parents, and
fewer substance-using friends and were more likely to
expect marriage before age 25
 
meat0918 [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2009-01-06 7:42:47 PM  

ninjakirby: Damn that lying science! Damn it to hell.


I'm confused. Is science lying because it has shown time and again that the abstinence only approach to sex ed doesn't work?

I have a cold, and it is the end of the day, so forgive me for my confusion.
 
ninjakirby
2009-01-06 7:45:02 PM  

meat0918: I'm confused. Is science lying because it has shown time and again that the abstinence only approach to sex ed doesn't work?


Well if God says one thing and Science says another, clearly the science is lying.
 
dahmers love zombie
2009-01-06 7:46:59 PM  

meat0918: I'm not about to google it at work, something about searching for the terms teen anal virgins just sounds like a bad idea.


Strictly for scientific purposes, I Googled it. Then I GIS'sed it. With Safe Search off.

My eyebrows will probably grow back, but I will need several showers not to feel dirty.

/fap
 
meat0918 [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2009-01-06 7:49:58 PM  

dahmers love zombie: meat0918: I'm not about to google it at work, something about searching for the terms teen anal virgins just sounds like a bad idea.

Strictly for scientific purposes, I Googled it. Then I GIS'sed it. With Safe Search off.

My eyebrows will probably grow back, but I will need several showers not to feel dirty.

/fap


Thanks for taking one for the team, but your response has forced me to requisition a new keyboard from IT.

Can we please move on to comprehensive sex education now? Complete with "scientifc" GIS sojurns if need be.
 
The Icelander
2009-01-06 7:50:17 PM  
verbaltoxin: A lifetime of sexual anxiety and aversion to birth control - yeah those are great lessons there, Dr. Healy.

And the best part is that if they have one good sexual experience, they turn into complete skanks.

And they're already experienced with anal and oral.

I'd say it's like the priests want them to be sluts, but they're really only interested in the boys.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2009-01-06 7:51:19 PM  
Is science lying because it has shown time and again that the abstinence only approach to sex ed doesn't work?

The great thing about science is this: it can, and does, prove both that abstinence programs work and that abstinence programs do not work. Like the punch line of the old joke -- what do you want the answer to be?
 
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